How big is the gap between Giannis and Bron?

[tsherkin]

Since the 2018 season Lebron has not played more than 71 games (once) in a season. If we take out the covid season in 2020, over six seasons Lebron has averaged 58 games a season. So it is established that Lebron is not the picture of health and him playing at this advanced age needs a heavy dose of context.

2018: 82 / 82
2019: 55 / 82
2020: 67 / 72
2021: 45 / 72
2022: 56 / 82
2023: 55 / 82
2024: 71 / 82
2025: 70 / 82

So, 71 games is a little specific, and in taking out the COVID-shortened seasons, you're basically saying he had a run of injuries in 19, 22 and 23. And 70 games is generally pretty good compared to a fair number of other stars. Certainly better than Embiid and Kawhi. Better than Durant, too. Steph's had a pile of injuries during that stretch, too.

So ultimately, the complaint rings a little hollow.

Also, Iwasawitness is right: you know nothing about the Raptors if you think Demar was the best player. That's got to be based purely on PPG.

[Cavsfansince84]

maybe if LeBron had been more patient the pieces would have came naturally? Who knows

He gave them two contracts, and they gave him nothing. There's no more patience than that. He could have handled his exit with more grace, but he gave them his rookie deal, the one after and then left when he had the choice to do so in free agency. That's plenty of time.

I'm curious what people think MJ would have done had Pippen suffered the same injury that Hughes got his first year in Cleveland and he'd never been an all star afterwards. If Pippen gets that injury in 89 and the Bulls don't make the ecf in 89/90 or win it all in 91 what do people think MJ would have done? He was under an 8 year contract but something tells me he doesn't just stay there because 'that's the way it's done'. Hughes was supposed to be a top 25 player next to LeBron for a long time.

[MavsDirk41]

I think part of the issue is some of his fans complaining that Jordan had a competent GM in Krause and a HOF coach in Jackson, which he did, and James never had that luxury. Well he did in Miami with Spo and Riley and he chose to leave so crocodile tears for the fans complaining. I also think it was funny that he blamed the roster for losing in the 2011 finals when he played poorly.

2011, he definitely had his issues.

And he left Miami, no doubt, but Wade and Bosh were both done after that point anyway. Wade was also gone from Miami two years later, until his final season. And everyone knew Lebron was there to win titles, not to stay and rebuild. But yes, Lebron's 2011 Finals series was a lot like the 07 first round for Dirk, or Kobe dropping the ball in most of his Finals appearances (but especially 08). Something to learn from, and from which to evolve. But like The Decision, Lebron didn't manage that well in terms of PR, for sure. He seems to have since come to terms with it, based on how he speaks of it on his podcast.

He didnt want to wait for Miami to shuffle the deck and i think he saw a better opportunity in Cleveland but Miami has proven to be one of the best organizations at drafting/developing players, is well coached, and has a GM that is smart, well respected, and has a great track record. Again his decision, i just get annoyed with the “he didnt have a great coach/gm” like Jordan because its not true.

[tsherkin]

I'm curious what people think MJ would have done had Pippen suffered the same injury that Hughes got his first year in Cleveland and he'd never been an all star afterwards. If Pippen gets that injury in 89 and the Bulls don't make the ecf in 89/90 or win it all in 91 what do people think MJ would have done? He was under an 8 year contract but something tells me he doesn't just stay there because 'that's the way it's done'. Hughes was supposed to be a top 25 player next to LeBron for a long time.

Larry Hughes? Anyone who'd already been watching him for 7 seasons knew that he was a) injury-prone, and b) never going to be That Guy alongside Lebron. Dude had played 70+ games twice in his career to that point, was an inefficient chucker, and had one errant All-D selection because he led the league in steals in 05.

And yes, Pippen was 100% critical to Jordan's title runs, without a doubt.

[SelfishPlayer]

Giannis has had a way better career (and peak) defensively than LeBron, and also rebounding obviously Giannis.
And offensively Giannis is the better scorer (29.9ppg for the last 6 years), and even Giannis assists are great for a PF (6.0apg for the last 6 years).
Overall i rate Giannis higher than LeBron, because LeBron's only edge is in championships but he abandoned Cleveland for Miami and only came back when Cleveland had Kyrie to hit the championship-winning shot.

Lebron has lead three different organizations to championship titles. The end...

Well he was supposed to win 7 in Miami, but failed and returned to Cleveland because they had Kyrie.
And then he went to LA where they say championships are expected, not just one championship...
If LeBron never left Cleveland in the first place, how many would he have won? Any?
Giannis did it the hard way, and will continue to.

Yeah, Lebron would have probably never won a championship had he stayed in Cleveland with Danny Ferry tarnishing his legacy. Lebron made a great decision by leaving from under that supreme mismanagement.

[The4thHorseman]

I think most people rip James for teaming up with two other all stars in their prime,

Mmmm. Prime years where they spent much of the time injured. And with weak chemistry. And then gets blamed for making them worse by people who don't understand how finite team shot attempts work. Most of the criticism of James over his departure to Miami is pretty low-quality, apart from the fact that the way he handled things with The Decision was pretty terrible, to be sure.

and then bolting after 4 years and going back to the organization that was apparently “incompetent.” His decision, but he has played with plenty of talent since leaving Cleveland in 2010. No tears for the guy from me.

Indeed, he has played with tons of talent since leaving the Cavs the first time. And he has 4 times and a whole whack of Finals appearances as a result of that choice. Which, given how harshly players at his level are judged based on rings, makes a lot of sense to me. You can't have it both ways, bitching at guys for not winning rings and then complaining when they do for themselves what their teams couldn't.

I think part of the issue is some of his fans complaining that Jordan had a competent GM in Krause and a HOF coach in Jackson, which he did, and James never had that luxury. Well he did in Miami with Spo and Riley and he chose to leave so crocodile tears for the fans complaining. I also think it was funny that he blamed the roster for losing in the 2011 finals when he played poorly.

He without a doubt is a top 3 player all time imo but some of the excuses on here are pretty silly.

What has Spo and Riley done since the end of the 2014 season when LeBron chose to become a free agent?

[tsherkin]

What has Spo and Riley done since the end of the 2014 season when LeBron chose to become a free agent?

Four appearances in the 2nd round or later, 8 postseason appearances in 11 years and 2 Finals appearances.

[Cavsfansince84]

Larry Hughes? Anyone who'd already been watching him for 7 seasons knew that he was a) injury-prone, and b) never going to be That Guy alongside Lebron. Dude had played 70+ games twice in his career to that point, was an inefficient chucker, and had one errant All-D selection because he led the league in steals in 05.

And yes, Pippen was 100% critical to Jordan's title runs, without a doubt.

Somewhat injury prone? yes. The year before he came to the Cavs though he puts up 22/6/5 on league avg efficiency and is 1st team all def at age 26. At the time I can tell you that we thought he had maybe found a Pippen for LeBron. That was what was supposed to happen and I don't think it was that far away from being possible had he been able to play 65-70 games a year rather than get a major injury. He wasn't going to develop into a top 15 player but I think he could have been a top 25-30 player for 4-5 years.

[tsherkin]

Somewhat injury prone? yes.

Perpetually injured, routinely missing around 15-20 games.

The year before he came to the Cavs though he puts up 22/6/5 on league avg efficiency and is 1st team all def at age 26.

A little below league-average, actually. -0.6% rTS. And that based on an FTr over .410, which he only did in 05 and 06... the first and second years after the rules change. LOTS of guys had a little boost year then.

At the time I can tell you that we thought he had maybe found a Pippen for LeBron.

Right, that's why I said anyone who had been paying attention to him beforehand knew better

I don't think it was that far away from being possible had he been able to play 65-70 games a year rather than get a major injury.

Sure. Booking him for 60-65 games made a fair amount of sense, I agree.

But yeah. He was never going to maintain what he'd done in 05. He was always a very uninspiring offensive player.

[MavsDirk41]

Mmmm. Prime years where they spent much of the time injured. And with weak chemistry. And then gets blamed for making them worse by people who don't understand how finite team shot attempts work. Most of the criticism of James over his departure to Miami is pretty low-quality, apart from the fact that the way he handled things with The Decision was pretty terrible, to be sure.



Indeed, he has played with tons of talent since leaving the Cavs the first time. And he has 4 times and a whole whack of Finals appearances as a result of that choice. Which, given how harshly players at his level are judged based on rings, makes a lot of sense to me. You can't have it both ways, bitching at guys for not winning rings and then complaining when they do for themselves what their teams couldn't.

I think part of the issue is some of his fans complaining that Jordan had a competent GM in Krause and a HOF coach in Jackson, which he did, and James never had that luxury. Well he did in Miami with Spo and Riley and he chose to leave so crocodile tears for the fans complaining. I also think it was funny that he blamed the roster for losing in the 2011 finals when he played poorly.

He without a doubt is a top 3 player all time imo but some of the excuses on here are pretty silly.

What has Spo and Riley done since the end of the 2014 season when LeBron chose to become a free agent?

What tsherkin said lol….Spo and Riley are pretty good at their jobs

[The4thHorseman]

I think part of the issue is some of his fans complaining that Jordan had a competent GM in Krause and a HOF coach in Jackson, which he did, and James never had that luxury. Well he did in Miami with Spo and Riley and he chose to leave so crocodile tears for the fans complaining. I also think it was funny that he blamed the roster for losing in the 2011 finals when he played poorly.

He without a doubt is a top 3 player all time imo but some of the excuses on here are pretty silly.

What has Spo and Riley done since the end of the 2014 season when LeBron chose to become a free agent?

What tsherkin said lol….Spo and Riley are pretty good at their jobs

So now all of a sudden, just making the Finals is considered a great accomplishment?

Why the change of mind all of a sudden? I thought just making the Finals and losing didn't mean ****?

[Iwasawitness]

Sure i can I dont believe he's nearly competitive as Giannis. If that offends you it could be because you arent objective when it comes to Lebron.

If he wasn't competitive then he would've never signed with 17 win Cleveland. He would've pulled a Kobe and say he would only sign with _______ < insert contending team name.

Funny that you're still bitter 10+ years later after James didn't sign with the NYK.

Not bitter at all, In retrospect I think we dodge a bullet. BTW him teaming up with 2 other top players at the time is hardly the epitome of competitiveness. Thank goodness Kryrie was able to to rescue him for a that ring... Lebron is uniquely gifted player,,but upstairs I think Giannis is just built different.

This is exactly what I'm talking about with you not being able to be objective. You continue to say Kyrie saved him, even though no person in their right mind thinks this.

[MavsDirk41]

What has Spo and Riley done since the end of the 2014 season when LeBron chose to become a free agent?

What tsherkin said lol….Spo and Riley are pretty good at their jobs

So now all of a sudden, just making the Finals is considered a great accomplishment?

Why the change of mind all of a sudden? I thought just making the Finals and losing didn't mean ****?

Lol first of all i never said that and i cant take anything you say on here seriously considering you laughed when i said the 89 Pistons were a deep squad. Your entire purpose on here is to defend your king. Sad really. Still waiting for you to defend your stance on those Pistons.

[RHODEY]

If he wasn't competitive then he would've never signed with 17 win Cleveland. He would've pulled a Kobe and say he would only sign with _______ < insert contending team name.

Funny that you're still bitter 10+ years later after James didn't sign with the NYK.

Not bitter at all, In retrospect I think we dodge a bullet. BTW him teaming up with 2 other top players at the time is hardly the epitome of competitiveness. Thank goodness Kryrie was able to to rescue him for a that ring... Lebron is uniquely gifted player,,but upstairs I think Giannis is just built different.

This is exactly what I'm talking about with you not being able to be objective. You continue to say Kyrie saved him, even though no person in their right mind thinks this.

Do a google search...MANY people believe it....because it's a fact. Ray Allen, Dwade, and Anthony Davis would all agree.

[Peregrine01]

Harden, CP3, and Westbrook never won a ring despite being teammates with tons of HoF players. Giannis has only had Khris and Jrue. For #2 options Middleton is one of the weakest to ever get it done. There’s maybe like 3 teams in the last 25 years with a comparable #2 option

I don't really like how Middleton is being remembered. His ankles have robbed his career short but he was a strong all-star before all the injuries took hold. Bucks won the last two games to close out the ECF with Giannis injured and Khris was great during that whole run.

What All-Star running mates would you pick Middleton over? These account for 30 of the last like 34 Champion teams

AD / LeBron? (1)
LeBron / Wade? (2)
Curry / Durant? (2)
Curry / Klay / Draymond? (2)
Hakeem / Clyde? (2)
Kawhi / Siakam / Lowry? (1)
Shaq / Kobe? (3)
Wade / Shaq? (1)
MJ / Pippen? (6)
Brown / Tatum? (1)
Duncan / Parker? (4)
KG / PP / Ray Allen? (1)
LeBron / Kyrie? (1)
Kobe / Gasol? (2)

I'd definitely take Middleton at his best over the 2012-2014 version of Wade, Clyde, Klay, Siakam (but maybe not Lowry), Brown, Parker and Kyrie when considering fit with Giannis. He was a really solid player that complemented Giannis very well. A shame that he could never stay healthy after that one run.

[mojomarc]

The Lakers management decided to go all in with Lebron at the age of 35 by trading all of their good young players for Anthony Davis. Anthony "Street Clothes" Davis who never won one series down in New Orleans and if anyone was likely to miss games due to injury it would be AD. That injury element should have been considered before the trade and you cannot hand wave seasons away because AD got hurt....AD always gets hurt. If it wasn't for the pandemic and them shutting down the season for two months he likely would have gotten hurt that season as well.

Just correcting one of your "facts": Davis did indeed win a series in New Orleans. They beat the Blazers in a series where Jrue just shut down Damien Lillard in what was considered a pretty shocking 4-0 sweep.

[Gregoire]

peak vs peak- tie. career - wiiiide gap.

[tsherkin]

So now all of a sudden, just making the Finals is considered a great accomplishment?

Why the change of mind all of a sudden? I thought just making the Finals and losing didn't mean ****?

Not a change on my behalf. Only Lebron-haters bitch about Finals appearances and try to denigrate their utility.

Miami hasn't won a title since 2014, sure, but they've done pretty well for themselves in the post-Lebron era, all told. Could it be better? Absolutely, but they've been quite good, regardless. And they also haven't had health, or a tier-1 guy, so them not winning a title is pretty understandable. Butler, of course, was quite good in his hey-day.

[Sign5]

I don't really like how Middleton is being remembered. His ankles have robbed his career short but he was a strong all-star before all the injuries took hold. Bucks won the last two games to close out the ECF with Giannis injured and Khris was great during that whole run.

What All-Star running mates would you pick Middleton over? These account for 30 of the last like 34 Champion teams

AD / LeBron? (1)
LeBron / Wade? (2)
Curry / Durant? (2)
Curry / Klay / Draymond? (2)
Hakeem / Clyde? (2)
Kawhi / Siakam / Lowry? (1)
Shaq / Kobe? (3)
Wade / Shaq? (1)
MJ / Pippen? (6)
Brown / Tatum? (1)
Duncan / Parker? (4)
KG / PP / Ray Allen? (1)
LeBron / Kyrie? (1)
Kobe / Gasol? (2)

I'd definitely take Middleton at his best over the 2012-2014 version of Wade, Clyde, Klay, Siakam (but maybe not Lowry), Brown, Parker and Kyrie when considering fit with Giannis. He was a really solid player that complemented Giannis very well. A shame that he could never stay healthy after that one run.

'13- '14 Wade sure but Middleton at his best was NOT better than '12 Wade. What a joke, '11 was the last year of his prime and in '12 he started developing severe bone on bone knee issues but he was still comfortably better than Middleton. Wade avg 23 5 and 6 in the 2012 season/post season, Middleton never eclipsed more than 21 in his career.

Then we consider playmaking, defense etc. Again '13, '14 Wade sure, he was pretty cooked. However '12 wasn't a colossal step down from '11 and he purposely took a back seat to Bron, mapping out their roles in the off-season prior but he was still WADE 4/5 times and im definitely taking that over Kris. No question.

[GiannisAnte34]

What All-Star running mates would you pick Middleton over? These account for 30 of the last like 34 Champion teams

AD / LeBron? (1)
LeBron / Wade? (2)
Curry / Durant? (2)
Curry / Klay / Draymond? (2)
Hakeem / Clyde? (2)
Kawhi / Siakam / Lowry? (1)
Shaq / Kobe? (3)
Wade / Shaq? (1)
MJ / Pippen? (6)
Brown / Tatum? (1)
Duncan / Parker? (4)
KG / PP / Ray Allen? (1)
LeBron / Kyrie? (1)
Kobe / Gasol? (2)

I'd definitely take Middleton at his best over the 2012-2014 version of Wade, Clyde, Klay, Siakam (but maybe not Lowry), Brown, Parker and Kyrie when considering fit with Giannis. He was a really solid player that complemented Giannis very well. A shame that he could never stay healthy after that one run.

'13- '14 Wade sure but Middleton at his best was NOT better than '12 Wade. What a joke, '11 was the last year of his prime and in '12 he started developing severe bone on bone knee issues but he was still comfortably better than Middleton. Wade avg 23 5 and 6 in the 2012 season/post season, Middleton never eclipsed more than 21 in his career.

Then we consider playmaking, defense etc. Again '13, '14 Wade sure, he was pretty cooked. However '12 wasn't a colossal step down from '11 and he purposely took a back seat to Bron, mapping out their roles in the off-season prior but he was still WADE 4/5 times and im definitely taking that over Kris. No question.

Middleton over Brown and Kyrie is a stretch IMO

I could maybe see Klay, Parker, Clyde, and Spicy. Personally I’d take Klay