Stockton says LeBrons titles don’t have value

[Handlez]

Stock rattling the young heads is funny.

[SlimShady83]

I love Stockton

[52-12-7]

Stock rattling the young heads is funny.

Yup. Lebron fans are in shambles and it's hilarious.

[SelfishPlayer]

Stockton isn't in the championship club so he has no standing.

[Iwasawitness]

Stock rattling the young heads is funny.

Yup. Lebron fans are in shambles and it's hilarious.

I don't really see any LeBron fans in shambles over this. In fact pretty much all of them agree his reasoning is silly and lacks merit.

[DimesandKnicks]

Andrew Wiggins was already pretty solid by year 2. I believe he would have did just fine in that line up with Kyrie and Lebron. Lebron just wanted another big 3. So he demanded another established star player, Kevin Love.

So again, if the "Big 3" was put together by management ya'll would be fine?

I believe he is saying you can’t have it both ways with which I agree. You contend Jordan was advantaged by the Bulls having a number 5 draft pick in Pippen who they could put next to Jordan, but LeBron pushed to trade a number 1 pick and could obviously have had the Cavs draft any other player in the draft that year. You also contend/complain that player in Love wasn’t as good next to LeBron as Grant was next to Jordan. You pay your money and you take your choice.

Again, I don't know why you're comparing 30 year old Lebron to 24 year old Jordan. My contention is that Jordan's organization gave him players that developed by his third by his fourth year in the league. By year four the Cav's gave Lebron Hughes and Drew Gooden and was playing in the NBA finals. And by Jordan's fourth year in the league he was coming at Krauses neck (he was in his ass) for not fielding a competitive roster and went on record with alot of his comments.

The whole, Jordan LET the Bulls rebuild around hims is just revisionist history. He's given us every indication that he likely would have skipped town or demanded a trade if the Bulls didn't get him help in seven years. He clearly demanded help. Year two the Bulls tried to shut him down to get a higher draft pick but Jordan wanted to compete for a playoff spot. I think the Bulls only lost one more game than the Cavs who ended up with the first pick. Jordan was outraged at the idea of not winning now.

Jordan was also said to be in favor of trading Grant for Buck Williams who was a more established star and was really disrespectful to Grant (which probably influenced Grant turning snitch to help inform the Jordan Rules book.)

The Last Dance showed how Jordan was irritated with Krause obsession with Kukoc, partly because he was focusing too much energy in the future instead of the right now.

In 91 he flamed Krause for not signing a 35 year old Walter Davis and was quoted as saying if he were GM they'd be a better team (hindsight ) and tried to pressure the Bulls owner to fire him.

Obviously LeBron’s teams don’t win the 4 titles without him. You haven’t and can’t present any evidence that the Bulls would have won those titles without Jordan either though, or that Pippen or Grant would have been as good next to LeBron as they were next to Jordan for that matter.

We have evidence that when you pair Lebron with a top 75 player that team wins a championship. There's no doubt in my mind that Lebron would have won a championship in Cleveland with Pippen and Grant but that's just my opinion. But I'd be willing to bet that Lebron wins his first year against the Warriors if he has Pippen and Grant, as he took the Warriors to six games with five games without Irving and Love and TT and Mosgov being his most competent comrades.

I disagree with Stockton that LeBron’s titles are less worthy, but also with insinuations that the titles won by the Jordan Bulls, the only 6 titles ever won by the Bulls, should be downgraded because of ‘advantages’.

There is no insinuation. But NBA fans have a hard on for looking down on Lebron for empowering himself instead of waiting for an organiztaion to do its job. The cleary message is Lebron's championship are less valuable because he needed help and got it. Again, if his orgz did it is that fine? Every other top ten player and all time great started off their NBA careers with other great players to compete with:

Kareem got Oscar in year two
Magic got Kareem in year one and Worthy and Riley in year two I believe
Bird started off with I believ Nate Archibold and got Mchale and Parish before his fourth year if I'm not mistaken
Duncan got Robinson in year one and Manu, Parker and Pop for the rest of his career
Wilt had Paul Arizin and skipped town to LA and won with Jerry West
West had Elgin Baylor until he got Wilt
Russel had Red and Cousy
Hakeem started is career with Sampson
Kobe got Shaq
Shaq got Penny in year two

Lebron had nothing and when he did he bolted to joint two career losers who'd never made it to the playoffs, but yall are calling him leaving MIA for Cleveland "stacking the deck" as if it was viewed as such at the time. People were shocked.

Every single player that entered the league and was expected to be great got help early in their career but Lebron, and when he did get enough help to win a championship, he left to start over to play player and Co-Gm, but adversity. Coward only in yall heads.

And why on earth should Jordan have kept going after the age of 35 in 1998 after the second of 2 threepeats which included a season which was and still is the best season any team has ever had ?. Should he have been concerned that some future player 22 years later might generate individual statistics by playing past the age of 35 without that player contending for titles himself ?.

Lebron left to play for the Cav's having played just about, or if not exactly the amount of seasons that Jordan did. If he can play 7 years with trash and win two championships than Jordan can stick around a few more years to entertain a rebuild, but coward. As if he didn't decide to play in Washington a few years later. When the Bul's decided we're going to unstack the deck for you Michael, Micchael said peace to the thought of adverisity...even just the idea of firing his coach.

You can see with clear eyes why a veteran player wouldn't want to retool to win a championship in Jordan's sake but not in Lebron's sake. Even though that's exactly what Lebron did in LA after winning three championships. And Lebron won his last championship two freaking years ago...at 38. When Jordan was 38 he was shooting sub 45 percent from the field and making no All NBA teams despite mising four seasons of wear and tear.

Lebron was sixth in MVP voting and his been ALl NBA for 18 years straight

[LakerLegend]

Cherry-Picked Chips does have a nice ring to it I must admit.

[LakerLegend]

Poll added!!

[Daddy 801]

To me it devalues them a bit, but its also not that big of a deal. What is more of a big deal is they didn't win more. They got cooked by Dallas and the Spurs. So they made a team and danced around like a bunch of clowns saying they would win 7 championships and vastly underperformed even when they stacked the deck in their own favor. That should be thrown in their faces more than they teamed up. I can think LeBron is one of the best players to ever walk the earth and also think his gloating and need to team up devalues his championships.

I would have left Cleveland as well so it's whatever. But if you team up and brag about how good you are going to be and get cooked by old Tim Duncan and old Dirk you aren't as good as you think.

[michaelm]

So again, if the "Big 3" was put together by management ya'll would be fine?

I believe he is saying you can’t have it both ways with which I agree. You contend Jordan was advantaged by the Bulls having a number 5 draft pick in Pippen who they could put next to Jordan, but LeBron pushed to trade a number 1 pick and could obviously have had the Cavs draft any other player in the draft that year. You also contend/complain that player in Love wasn’t as good next to LeBron as Grant was next to Jordan. You pay your money and you take your choice.

Again, I don't know why you're comparing 30 year old Lebron to 24 year old Jordan. My contention is that Jordan's organization gave him players that developed by his third by his fourth year in the league. By year four the Cav's gave Lebron Hughes and Drew Gooden and was playing in the NBA finals. And by Jordan's fourth year in the league he was coming at Krauses neck (he was in his ass) for not fielding a competitive roster and went on record with alot of his comments.

The whole, Jordan LET the Bulls rebuild around hims is just revisionist history. He's given us every indication that he likely would have skipped town or demanded a trade if the Bulls didn't get him help in seven years. He clearly demanded help. Year two the Bulls tried to shut him down to get a higher draft pick but Jordan wanted to compete for a playoff spot. I think the Bulls only lost one more game than the Cavs who ended up with the first pick. Jordan was outraged at the idea of not winning now.

Jordan was also said to be in favor of trading Grant for Buck Williams who was a more established star and was really disrespectful to Grant (which probably influenced Grant turning snitch to help inform the Jordan Rules book.)

The Last Dance showed how Jordan was irritated with Krause obsession with Kukoc, partly because he was focusing too much energy in the future instead of the right now.

In 91 he flamed Krause for not signing a 35 year old Walter Davis and was quoted as saying if he were GM they'd be a better team (hindsight ) and tried to pressure the Bulls owner to fire him.

Obviously LeBron’s teams don’t win the 4 titles without him. You haven’t and can’t present any evidence that the Bulls would have won those titles without Jordan either though, or that Pippen or Grant would have been as good next to LeBron as they were next to Jordan for that matter.

We have evidence that when you pair Lebron with a top 75 player that team wins a championship. There's no doubt in my mind that Lebron would have won a championship in Cleveland with Pippen and Grant but that's just my opinion. But I'd be willing to bet that Lebron wins his first year against the Warriors if he has Pippen and Grant, as he took the Warriors to six games with five games without Irving and Love and TT and Mosgov being his most competent comrades.

I disagree with Stockton that LeBron’s titles are less worthy, but also with insinuations that the titles won by the Jordan Bulls, the only 6 titles ever won by the Bulls, should be downgraded because of ‘advantages’.

There is no insinuation. But NBA fans have a hard on for looking down on Lebron for empowering himself instead of waiting for an organiztaion to do its job. The cleary message is Lebron's championship are less valuable because he needed help and got it. Again, if his orgz did it is that fine? Every other top ten player and all time great started off their NBA careers with other great players to compete with:

Kareem got Oscar in year two
Magic got Kareem in year one and Worthy and Riley in year two I believe
Bird started off with I believ Nate Archibold and got Mchale and Parish before his fourth year if I'm not mistaken
Duncan got Robinson in year one and Manu, Parker and Pop for the rest of his career
Wilt had Paul Arizin and skipped town to LA and won with Jerry West
West had Elgin Baylor until he got Wilt
Russel had Red and Cousy
Hakeem started is career with Sampson
Kobe got Shaq
Shaq got Penny in year two

Lebron had nothing and when he did he bolted to joint two career losers who'd never made it to the playoffs, but yall are calling him leaving MIA for Cleveland "stacking the deck" as if it was viewed as such at the time. People were shocked.

Every single player that entered the league and was expected to be great got help early in their career but Lebron, and when he did get enough help to win a championship, he left to start over to play player and Co-Gm, but adversity. Coward only in yall heads.

And why on earth should Jordan have kept going after the age of 35 in 1998 after the second of 2 threepeats which included a season which was and still is the best season any team has ever had ?. Should he have been concerned that some future player 22 years later might generate individual statistics by playing past the age of 35 without that player contending for titles himself ?.

Lebron left to play for the Cav's having played just about, or if not exactly the amount of seasons that Jordan did. If he can play 7 years with trash and win two championships than Jordan can stick around a few more years to entertain a rebuild, but coward. As if he didn't decide to play in Washington a few years later. When the Bul's decided we're going to unstack the deck for you Michael, Micchael said peace to the thought of adverisity...even just the idea of firing his coach.

You can see with clear eyes why a veteran player wouldn't want to retool to win a championship in Jordan's sake but not in Lebron's sake. Even though that's exactly what Lebron did in LA after winning three championships. And Lebron won his last championship two freaking years ago...at 38. When Jordan was 38 he was shooting sub 45 percent from the field and making no All NBA teams despite mising four seasons of wear and tear.

Lebron was sixth in MVP voting and his been ALl NBA for 18 years straight

Yes, it is only other people who are biased/prosecute agendas. You are now posting arrant nonsense after previously taking others to task for inaccuracy..

LeBron is 40 now which makes him 35 when he won his last championship which was in 2020 unless I have missed a whole NBA season since then. Jordan was the lead player on 4 title winning teams after the age of 30, the last in 1998 having turned 35 in February of that year, performing as well as any 35 year old has done. I don’t recall any narrative back then that he had picked an unreasonable time to retire or retired due to cowardice as you put it, remark more being made that he was still probably the best player in the world even at age 35.

Since when has it been mandatory to play till you are 40 or more ?. it isn’t now and certainly wasn’t back then. Jordan had a longer career than most back then and retired after a second threepeat which included the most successful season any team has ever had.

You will have to ask Jordan why he came back a second time to play for the Wizards, my working theory is that he just liked playing NBA basketball, doubtless including the attention/adulation he garnered doing so. I am fairly sure it wasn’t with any expectation of challenging Bill Russell for titles won or to accumulate longevity records.

[Ruma85]

So again, if the "Big 3" was put together by management ya'll would be fine?

I believe he is saying you can’t have it both ways with which I agree. You contend Jordan was advantaged by the Bulls having a number 5 draft pick in Pippen who they could put next to Jordan, but LeBron pushed to trade a number 1 pick and could obviously have had the Cavs draft any other player in the draft that year. You also contend/complain that player in Love wasn’t as good next to LeBron as Grant was next to Jordan. You pay your money and you take your choice.

Again, I don't know why you're comparing 30 year old Lebron to 24 year old Jordan. My contention is that Jordan's organization gave him players that developed by his third by his fourth year in the league. By year four the Cav's gave Lebron Hughes and Drew Gooden and was playing in the NBA finals. And by Jordan's fourth year in the league he was coming at Krauses neck (he was in his ass) for not fielding a competitive roster and went on record with alot of his comments.

The whole, Jordan LET the Bulls rebuild around hims is just revisionist history. He's given us every indication that he likely would have skipped town or demanded a trade if the Bulls didn't get him help in seven years. He clearly demanded help. Year two the Bulls tried to shut him down to get a higher draft pick but Jordan wanted to compete for a playoff spot. I think the Bulls only lost one more game than the Cavs who ended up with the first pick. Jordan was outraged at the idea of not winning now.

Jordan was also said to be in favor of trading Grant for Buck Williams who was a more established star and was really disrespectful to Grant (which probably influenced Grant turning snitch to help inform the Jordan Rules book.)

The Last Dance showed how Jordan was irritated with Krause obsession with Kukoc, partly because he was focusing too much energy in the future instead of the right now.

In 91 he flamed Krause for not signing a 35 year old Walter Davis and was quoted as saying if he were GM they'd be a better team (hindsight ) and tried to pressure the Bulls owner to fire him.

Obviously LeBron’s teams don’t win the 4 titles without him. You haven’t and can’t present any evidence that the Bulls would have won those titles without Jordan either though, or that Pippen or Grant would have been as good next to LeBron as they were next to Jordan for that matter.

We have evidence that when you pair Lebron with a top 75 player that team wins a championship. There's no doubt in my mind that Lebron would have won a championship in Cleveland with Pippen and Grant but that's just my opinion. But I'd be willing to bet that Lebron wins his first year against the Warriors if he has Pippen and Grant, as he took the Warriors to six games with five games without Irving and Love and TT and Mosgov being his most competent comrades.

I disagree with Stockton that LeBron’s titles are less worthy, but also with insinuations that the titles won by the Jordan Bulls, the only 6 titles ever won by the Bulls, should be downgraded because of ‘advantages’.

There is no insinuation. But NBA fans have a hard on for looking down on Lebron for empowering himself instead of waiting for an organiztaion to do its job. The cleary message is Lebron's championship are less valuable because he needed help and got it. Again, if his orgz did it is that fine? Every other top ten player and all time great started off their NBA careers with other great players to compete with:

Kareem got Oscar in year two
Magic got Kareem in year one and Worthy and Riley in year two I believe
Bird started off with I believ Nate Archibold and got Mchale and Parish before his fourth year if I'm not mistaken
Duncan got Robinson in year one and Manu, Parker and Pop for the rest of his career
Wilt had Paul Arizin and skipped town to LA and won with Jerry West
West had Elgin Baylor until he got Wilt
Russel had Red and Cousy
Hakeem started is career with Sampson
Kobe got Shaq
Shaq got Penny in year two

Lebron had nothing and when he did he bolted to joint two career losers who'd never made it to the playoffs, but yall are calling him leaving MIA for Cleveland "stacking the deck" as if it was viewed as such at the time. People were shocked.

Every single player that entered the league and was expected to be great got help early in their career but Lebron, and when he did get enough help to win a championship, he left to start over to play player and Co-Gm, but adversity. Coward only in yall heads.

And why on earth should Jordan have kept going after the age of 35 in 1998 after the second of 2 threepeats which included a season which was and still is the best season any team has ever had ?. Should he have been concerned that some future player 22 years later might generate individual statistics by playing past the age of 35 without that player contending for titles himself ?.

Lebron left to play for the Cav's having played just about, or if not exactly the amount of seasons that Jordan did. If he can play 7 years with trash and win two championships than Jordan can stick around a few more years to entertain a rebuild, but coward. As if he didn't decide to play in Washington a few years later. When the Bul's decided we're going to unstack the deck for you Michael, Micchael said peace to the thought of adverisity...even just the idea of firing his coach.

You can see with clear eyes why a veteran player wouldn't want to retool to win a championship in Jordan's sake but not in Lebron's sake. Even though that's exactly what Lebron did in LA after winning three championships. And Lebron won his last championship two freaking years ago...at 38. When Jordan was 38 he was shooting sub 45 percent from the field and making no All NBA teams despite mising four seasons of wear and tear.

Lebron was sixth in MVP voting and his been ALl NBA for 18 years straight

Actually Lebron won his last chip 5 years ago, and he was 35.

[Gregoire]

Yes, he's right. And all smart people know it. When LeGM will retired, his titles would be less and less valuable in people's eyes...

[Ben-N1ce]

Brady and LeBron are the same and Brady is considered GOAT and Brady left to get another ring.

Both have basically every record on offensive in reg season and playoffs

Brady 23 seasons 2 teams 10 SB berths 7-3 SB record.

LeBron 22 seasons 3 teams 10 Finals berths 4-6 record.

[DimesandKnicks]

I believe he is saying you can’t have it both ways with which I agree. You contend Jordan was advantaged by the Bulls having a number 5 draft pick in Pippen who they could put next to Jordan, but LeBron pushed to trade a number 1 pick and could obviously have had the Cavs draft any other player in the draft that year. You also contend/complain that player in Love wasn’t as good next to LeBron as Grant was next to Jordan. You pay your money and you take your choice.

Again, I don't know why you're comparing 30 year old Lebron to 24 year old Jordan. My contention is that Jordan's organization gave him players that developed by his third by his fourth year in the league. By year four the Cav's gave Lebron Hughes and Drew Gooden and was playing in the NBA finals. And by Jordan's fourth year in the league he was coming at Krauses neck (he was in his ass) for not fielding a competitive roster and went on record with alot of his comments.

The whole, Jordan LET the Bulls rebuild around hims is just revisionist history. He's given us every indication that he likely would have skipped town or demanded a trade if the Bulls didn't get him help in seven years. He clearly demanded help. Year two the Bulls tried to shut him down to get a higher draft pick but Jordan wanted to compete for a playoff spot. I think the Bulls only lost one more game than the Cavs who ended up with the first pick. Jordan was outraged at the idea of not winning now.

Jordan was also said to be in favor of trading Grant for Buck Williams who was a more established star and was really disrespectful to Grant (which probably influenced Grant turning snitch to help inform the Jordan Rules book.)

The Last Dance showed how Jordan was irritated with Krause obsession with Kukoc, partly because he was focusing too much energy in the future instead of the right now.

In 91 he flamed Krause for not signing a 35 year old Walter Davis and was quoted as saying if he were GM they'd be a better team (hindsight ) and tried to pressure the Bulls owner to fire him.

Obviously LeBron’s teams don’t win the 4 titles without him. You haven’t and can’t present any evidence that the Bulls would have won those titles without Jordan either though, or that Pippen or Grant would have been as good next to LeBron as they were next to Jordan for that matter.

We have evidence that when you pair Lebron with a top 75 player that team wins a championship. There's no doubt in my mind that Lebron would have won a championship in Cleveland with Pippen and Grant but that's just my opinion. But I'd be willing to bet that Lebron wins his first year against the Warriors if he has Pippen and Grant, as he took the Warriors to six games with five games without Irving and Love and TT and Mosgov being his most competent comrades.

I disagree with Stockton that LeBron’s titles are less worthy, but also with insinuations that the titles won by the Jordan Bulls, the only 6 titles ever won by the Bulls, should be downgraded because of ‘advantages’.

There is no insinuation. But NBA fans have a hard on for looking down on Lebron for empowering himself instead of waiting for an organiztaion to do its job. The cleary message is Lebron's championship are less valuable because he needed help and got it. Again, if his orgz did it is that fine? Every other top ten player and all time great started off their NBA careers with other great players to compete with:

Kareem got Oscar in year two
Magic got Kareem in year one and Worthy and Riley in year two I believe
Bird started off with I believ Nate Archibold and got Mchale and Parish before his fourth year if I'm not mistaken
Duncan got Robinson in year one and Manu, Parker and Pop for the rest of his career
Wilt had Paul Arizin and skipped town to LA and won with Jerry West
West had Elgin Baylor until he got Wilt
Russel had Red and Cousy
Hakeem started is career with Sampson
Kobe got Shaq
Shaq got Penny in year two

Lebron had nothing and when he did he bolted to joint two career losers who'd never made it to the playoffs, but yall are calling him leaving MIA for Cleveland "stacking the deck" as if it was viewed as such at the time. People were shocked.

Every single player that entered the league and was expected to be great got help early in their career but Lebron, and when he did get enough help to win a championship, he left to start over to play player and Co-Gm, but adversity. Coward only in yall heads.

And why on earth should Jordan have kept going after the age of 35 in 1998 after the second of 2 threepeats which included a season which was and still is the best season any team has ever had ?. Should he have been concerned that some future player 22 years later might generate individual statistics by playing past the age of 35 without that player contending for titles himself ?.

Lebron left to play for the Cav's having played just about, or if not exactly the amount of seasons that Jordan did. If he can play 7 years with trash and win two championships than Jordan can stick around a few more years to entertain a rebuild, but coward. As if he didn't decide to play in Washington a few years later. When the Bul's decided we're going to unstack the deck for you Michael, Micchael said peace to the thought of adverisity...even just the idea of firing his coach.

You can see with clear eyes why a veteran player wouldn't want to retool to win a championship in Jordan's sake but not in Lebron's sake. Even though that's exactly what Lebron did in LA after winning three championships. And Lebron won his last championship two freaking years ago...at 38. When Jordan was 38 he was shooting sub 45 percent from the field and making no All NBA teams despite mising four seasons of wear and tear.

Lebron was sixth in MVP voting and his been ALl NBA for 18 years straight

Actually Lebron won his last chip 5 years ago, and he was 35.

I misspoke. I meant to say he was in the Western Conference finals two years ago and lost to the eventual champs

[DimesandKnicks]

I believe he is saying you can’t have it both ways with which I agree. You contend Jordan was advantaged by the Bulls having a number 5 draft pick in Pippen who they could put next to Jordan, but LeBron pushed to trade a number 1 pick and could obviously have had the Cavs draft any other player in the draft that year. You also contend/complain that player in Love wasn’t as good next to LeBron as Grant was next to Jordan. You pay your money and you take your choice.

Again, I don't know why you're comparing 30 year old Lebron to 24 year old Jordan. My contention is that Jordan's organization gave him players that developed by his third by his fourth year in the league. By year four the Cav's gave Lebron Hughes and Drew Gooden and was playing in the NBA finals. And by Jordan's fourth year in the league he was coming at Krauses neck (he was in his ass) for not fielding a competitive roster and went on record with alot of his comments.

The whole, Jordan LET the Bulls rebuild around hims is just revisionist history. He's given us every indication that he likely would have skipped town or demanded a trade if the Bulls didn't get him help in seven years. He clearly demanded help. Year two the Bulls tried to shut him down to get a higher draft pick but Jordan wanted to compete for a playoff spot. I think the Bulls only lost one more game than the Cavs who ended up with the first pick. Jordan was outraged at the idea of not winning now.

Jordan was also said to be in favor of trading Grant for Buck Williams who was a more established star and was really disrespectful to Grant (which probably influenced Grant turning snitch to help inform the Jordan Rules book.)

The Last Dance showed how Jordan was irritated with Krause obsession with Kukoc, partly because he was focusing too much energy in the future instead of the right now.

In 91 he flamed Krause for not signing a 35 year old Walter Davis and was quoted as saying if he were GM they'd be a better team (hindsight ) and tried to pressure the Bulls owner to fire him.

Obviously LeBron’s teams don’t win the 4 titles without him. You haven’t and can’t present any evidence that the Bulls would have won those titles without Jordan either though, or that Pippen or Grant would have been as good next to LeBron as they were next to Jordan for that matter.

We have evidence that when you pair Lebron with a top 75 player that team wins a championship. There's no doubt in my mind that Lebron would have won a championship in Cleveland with Pippen and Grant but that's just my opinion. But I'd be willing to bet that Lebron wins his first year against the Warriors if he has Pippen and Grant, as he took the Warriors to six games with five games without Irving and Love and TT and Mosgov being his most competent comrades.

I disagree with Stockton that LeBron’s titles are less worthy, but also with insinuations that the titles won by the Jordan Bulls, the only 6 titles ever won by the Bulls, should be downgraded because of ‘advantages’.

There is no insinuation. But NBA fans have a hard on for looking down on Lebron for empowering himself instead of waiting for an organiztaion to do its job. The cleary message is Lebron's championship are less valuable because he needed help and got it. Again, if his orgz did it is that fine? Every other top ten player and all time great started off their NBA careers with other great players to compete with:

Kareem got Oscar in year two
Magic got Kareem in year one and Worthy and Riley in year two I believe
Bird started off with I believ Nate Archibold and got Mchale and Parish before his fourth year if I'm not mistaken
Duncan got Robinson in year one and Manu, Parker and Pop for the rest of his career
Wilt had Paul Arizin and skipped town to LA and won with Jerry West
West had Elgin Baylor until he got Wilt
Russel had Red and Cousy
Hakeem started is career with Sampson
Kobe got Shaq
Shaq got Penny in year two

Lebron had nothing and when he did he bolted to joint two career losers who'd never made it to the playoffs, but yall are calling him leaving MIA for Cleveland "stacking the deck" as if it was viewed as such at the time. People were shocked.

Every single player that entered the league and was expected to be great got help early in their career but Lebron, and when he did get enough help to win a championship, he left to start over to play player and Co-Gm, but adversity. Coward only in yall heads.

And why on earth should Jordan have kept going after the age of 35 in 1998 after the second of 2 threepeats which included a season which was and still is the best season any team has ever had ?. Should he have been concerned that some future player 22 years later might generate individual statistics by playing past the age of 35 without that player contending for titles himself ?.

Lebron left to play for the Cav's having played just about, or if not exactly the amount of seasons that Jordan did. If he can play 7 years with trash and win two championships than Jordan can stick around a few more years to entertain a rebuild, but coward. As if he didn't decide to play in Washington a few years later. When the Bul's decided we're going to unstack the deck for you Michael, Micchael said peace to the thought of adverisity...even just the idea of firing his coach.

You can see with clear eyes why a veteran player wouldn't want to retool to win a championship in Jordan's sake but not in Lebron's sake. Even though that's exactly what Lebron did in LA after winning three championships. And Lebron won his last championship two freaking years ago...at 38. When Jordan was 38 he was shooting sub 45 percent from the field and making no All NBA teams despite mising four seasons of wear and tear.

Lebron was sixth in MVP voting and his been ALl NBA for 18 years straight

Yes, it is only other people who are biased/prosecute agendas. You are now posting arrant nonsense after previously taking others to task for inaccuracy..

LeBron is 40 now which makes him 35 when he won his last championship which was in 2020 unless I have missed a whole NBA season since then. Jordan was the lead player on 4 title winning teams after the age of 30, the last in 1998 having turned 35 in February of that year, performing as well as any 35 year old has done. I don’t recall any narrative back then that he had picked an unreasonable time to retire or retired due to cowardice as you put it, remark more being made that he was still probably the best player in the world even at age 35.

Since when has it been mandatory to play till you are 40 or more ?. it isn’t now and certainly wasn’t back then. Jordan had a longer career than most back then and retired after a second threepeat which included the most successful season any team has ever had.

You will have to ask Jordan why he came back a second time to play for the Wizards, my working theory is that he just liked playing NBA basketball, doubtless including the attention/adulation he garnered doing so. I am fairly sure it wasn’t with any expectation of challenging Bill Russell for titles won or to accumulate longevity records.

Lol, yea your basketball soul is figuring it out but your flesh and blood is doing your best to deny it. That's why your adressing 1/8 of my post instead of the most salient points. I mispoke when I said he won a championship two years ago, I meant he was competing for one when they lost to the eventual Champs, the Nuggets.

Why do some of you poster do that? Instead of acknowleding that good points are being made or challenging your assertions (to be fair part of my argument was Jordan was not interested in allowing players to develop which was another poster argued Lebron would not) or at least addressing the main arguement ya'll will kind of attack low hanging fruit. The word count on my post was 833 words, you addressed just about the last 37 and ignored the rest, because you had to Your basketball soul knows better.

The point of my post was very clear. Jordan DEMANDED HELP. Very early on in an incredibly immature and toxic way and wanted to play with established stars. And just like every other all-time great, sans Lebron, he got it...very early on.

I don’t recall any narrative back then that he had picked an unreasonable time to retire or retired due to cowardice as you put it, remark more being made that he was still probably the best player in the world even at age 35.

Jordan retired because the Bulls were firing Phil Jackson and looking to rebuild/retool. He made this very clear in The Last Dance doc. He didn't retired because he was 35. He wanted to defend his latest championship but his front office was signalling that this was no longer the agenda. You and I both know this. Because his org was no longer interested in giving him or retaining the pieces to contend - he quit. I guess quiting when you don't have the right cards is better than trying to compete with another deck.

[DimesandKnicks]

To me it devalues them a bit, but its also not that big of a deal. What is more of a big deal is they didn't win more. They got cooked by Dallas and the Spurs. So they made a team and danced around like a bunch of clowns saying they would win 7 championships and vastly underperformed even when they stacked the deck in their own favor. That should be thrown in their faces more than they teamed up. I can think LeBron is one of the best players to ever walk the earth and also think his gloating and need to team up devalues his championships.

I would have left Cleveland as well so it's whatever. But if you team up and brag about how good you are going to be and get cooked by old Tim Duncan and old Dirk you aren't as good as you think.

Lebron definetly deserves critism for his perfomance agains the Mavs. But the Mav's were 100 percent the better and deeper team. If Kyrie and Love aren't hurt for his first Mav's campaign, he likely beats the Warriors for Ring number three, repeats the following year and if KD doesn't join the Warriors he likely wins another two. Jordan has never gone up against a team like those Warriors.

[Ruma85]

Again, I don't know why you're comparing 30 year old Lebron to 24 year old Jordan. My contention is that Jordan's organization gave him players that developed by his third by his fourth year in the league. By year four the Cav's gave Lebron Hughes and Drew Gooden and was playing in the NBA finals. And by Jordan's fourth year in the league he was coming at Krauses neck (he was in his ass) for not fielding a competitive roster and went on record with alot of his comments.

The whole, Jordan LET the Bulls rebuild around hims is just revisionist history. He's given us every indication that he likely would have skipped town or demanded a trade if the Bulls didn't get him help in seven years. He clearly demanded help. Year two the Bulls tried to shut him down to get a higher draft pick but Jordan wanted to compete for a playoff spot. I think the Bulls only lost one more game than the Cavs who ended up with the first pick. Jordan was outraged at the idea of not winning now.

Jordan was also said to be in favor of trading Grant for Buck Williams who was a more established star and was really disrespectful to Grant (which probably influenced Grant turning snitch to help inform the Jordan Rules book.)

The Last Dance showed how Jordan was irritated with Krause obsession with Kukoc, partly because he was focusing too much energy in the future instead of the right now.

In 91 he flamed Krause for not signing a 35 year old Walter Davis and was quoted as saying if he were GM they'd be a better team (hindsight ) and tried to pressure the Bulls owner to fire him.



We have evidence that when you pair Lebron with a top 75 player that team wins a championship. There's no doubt in my mind that Lebron would have won a championship in Cleveland with Pippen and Grant but that's just my opinion. But I'd be willing to bet that Lebron wins his first year against the Warriors if he has Pippen and Grant, as he took the Warriors to six games with five games without Irving and Love and TT and Mosgov being his most competent comrades.



There is no insinuation. But NBA fans have a hard on for looking down on Lebron for empowering himself instead of waiting for an organiztaion to do its job. The cleary message is Lebron's championship are less valuable because he needed help and got it. Again, if his orgz did it is that fine? Every other top ten player and all time great started off their NBA careers with other great players to compete with:

Kareem got Oscar in year two
Magic got Kareem in year one and Worthy and Riley in year two I believe
Bird started off with I believ Nate Archibold and got Mchale and Parish before his fourth year if I'm not mistaken
Duncan got Robinson in year one and Manu, Parker and Pop for the rest of his career
Wilt had Paul Arizin and skipped town to LA and won with Jerry West
West had Elgin Baylor until he got Wilt
Russel had Red and Cousy
Hakeem started is career with Sampson
Kobe got Shaq
Shaq got Penny in year two

Lebron had nothing and when he did he bolted to joint two career losers who'd never made it to the playoffs, but yall are calling him leaving MIA for Cleveland "stacking the deck" as if it was viewed as such at the time. People were shocked.

Every single player that entered the league and was expected to be great got help early in their career but Lebron, and when he did get enough help to win a championship, he left to start over to play player and Co-Gm, but adversity. Coward only in yall heads.



Lebron left to play for the Cav's having played just about, or if not exactly the amount of seasons that Jordan did. If he can play 7 years with trash and win two championships than Jordan can stick around a few more years to entertain a rebuild, but coward. As if he didn't decide to play in Washington a few years later. When the Bul's decided we're going to unstack the deck for you Michael, Micchael said peace to the thought of adverisity...even just the idea of firing his coach.

You can see with clear eyes why a veteran player wouldn't want to retool to win a championship in Jordan's sake but not in Lebron's sake. Even though that's exactly what Lebron did in LA after winning three championships. And Lebron won his last championship two freaking years ago...at 38. When Jordan was 38 he was shooting sub 45 percent from the field and making no All NBA teams despite mising four seasons of wear and tear.

Lebron was sixth in MVP voting and his been ALl NBA for 18 years straight

Actually Lebron won his last chip 5 years ago, and he was 35.

I misspoke. I meant to say he was in the Western Conference finals two years ago and lost to the eventual champs

Fair enough, just wasn't sure, so I thought to point it out.

[MavsDirk41]

Again, I don't know why you're comparing 30 year old Lebron to 24 year old Jordan. My contention is that Jordan's organization gave him players that developed by his third by his fourth year in the league. By year four the Cav's gave Lebron Hughes and Drew Gooden and was playing in the NBA finals. And by Jordan's fourth year in the league he was coming at Krauses neck (he was in his ass) for not fielding a competitive roster and went on record with alot of his comments.

The whole, Jordan LET the Bulls rebuild around hims is just revisionist history. He's given us every indication that he likely would have skipped town or demanded a trade if the Bulls didn't get him help in seven years. He clearly demanded help. Year two the Bulls tried to shut him down to get a higher draft pick but Jordan wanted to compete for a playoff spot. I think the Bulls only lost one more game than the Cavs who ended up with the first pick. Jordan was outraged at the idea of not winning now.

Jordan was also said to be in favor of trading Grant for Buck Williams who was a more established star and was really disrespectful to Grant (which probably influenced Grant turning snitch to help inform the Jordan Rules book.)

The Last Dance showed how Jordan was irritated with Krause obsession with Kukoc, partly because he was focusing too much energy in the future instead of the right now.

In 91 he flamed Krause for not signing a 35 year old Walter Davis and was quoted as saying if he were GM they'd be a better team (hindsight ) and tried to pressure the Bulls owner to fire him.



We have evidence that when you pair Lebron with a top 75 player that team wins a championship. There's no doubt in my mind that Lebron would have won a championship in Cleveland with Pippen and Grant but that's just my opinion. But I'd be willing to bet that Lebron wins his first year against the Warriors if he has Pippen and Grant, as he took the Warriors to six games with five games without Irving and Love and TT and Mosgov being his most competent comrades.



There is no insinuation. But NBA fans have a hard on for looking down on Lebron for empowering himself instead of waiting for an organiztaion to do its job. The cleary message is Lebron's championship are less valuable because he needed help and got it. Again, if his orgz did it is that fine? Every other top ten player and all time great started off their NBA careers with other great players to compete with:

Kareem got Oscar in year two
Magic got Kareem in year one and Worthy and Riley in year two I believe
Bird started off with I believ Nate Archibold and got Mchale and Parish before his fourth year if I'm not mistaken
Duncan got Robinson in year one and Manu, Parker and Pop for the rest of his career
Wilt had Paul Arizin and skipped town to LA and won with Jerry West
West had Elgin Baylor until he got Wilt
Russel had Red and Cousy
Hakeem started is career with Sampson
Kobe got Shaq
Shaq got Penny in year two

Lebron had nothing and when he did he bolted to joint two career losers who'd never made it to the playoffs, but yall are calling him leaving MIA for Cleveland "stacking the deck" as if it was viewed as such at the time. People were shocked.

Every single player that entered the league and was expected to be great got help early in their career but Lebron, and when he did get enough help to win a championship, he left to start over to play player and Co-Gm, but adversity. Coward only in yall heads.



Lebron left to play for the Cav's having played just about, or if not exactly the amount of seasons that Jordan did. If he can play 7 years with trash and win two championships than Jordan can stick around a few more years to entertain a rebuild, but coward. As if he didn't decide to play in Washington a few years later. When the Bul's decided we're going to unstack the deck for you Michael, Micchael said peace to the thought of adverisity...even just the idea of firing his coach.

You can see with clear eyes why a veteran player wouldn't want to retool to win a championship in Jordan's sake but not in Lebron's sake. Even though that's exactly what Lebron did in LA after winning three championships. And Lebron won his last championship two freaking years ago...at 38. When Jordan was 38 he was shooting sub 45 percent from the field and making no All NBA teams despite mising four seasons of wear and tear.

Lebron was sixth in MVP voting and his been ALl NBA for 18 years straight

Yes, it is only other people who are biased/prosecute agendas. You are now posting arrant nonsense after previously taking others to task for inaccuracy..

LeBron is 40 now which makes him 35 when he won his last championship which was in 2020 unless I have missed a whole NBA season since then. Jordan was the lead player on 4 title winning teams after the age of 30, the last in 1998 having turned 35 in February of that year, performing as well as any 35 year old has done. I don’t recall any narrative back then that he had picked an unreasonable time to retire or retired due to cowardice as you put it, remark more being made that he was still probably the best player in the world even at age 35.

Since when has it been mandatory to play till you are 40 or more ?. it isn’t now and certainly wasn’t back then. Jordan had a longer career than most back then and retired after a second threepeat which included the most successful season any team has ever had.

You will have to ask Jordan why he came back a second time to play for the Wizards, my working theory is that he just liked playing NBA basketball, doubtless including the attention/adulation he garnered doing so. I am fairly sure it wasn’t with any expectation of challenging Bill Russell for titles won or to accumulate longevity records.

Lol, yea your basketball soul is figuring it out but your flesh and blood is doing your best to deny it. That's why your adressing 1/8 of my post instead of the most salient points. I mispoke when I said he won a championship two years ago, I meant he was competing for one when they lost to the eventual Champs, the Nuggets.

Why do some of you poster do that? Instead of acknowleding that good points are being made or challenging your assertions (to be fair part of my argument was Jordan was not interested in allowing players to develop which was another poster argued Lebron would not) or at least addressing the main arguement ya'll will kind of attack low hanging fruit. The word count on my post was 833 words, you addressed just about the last 37 and ignored the rest, because you had to Your basketball soul knows better.

The point of my post was very clear. Jordan DEMANDED HELP. Very early on in an incredibly immature and toxic way and wanted to play with established stars. And just like every other all-time great, sans Lebron, he got it...very early on.

I don’t recall any narrative back then that he had picked an unreasonable time to retire or retired due to cowardice as you put it, remark more being made that he was still probably the best player in the world even at age 35.

Jordan retired because the Bulls were firing Phil Jackson and looking to rebuild/retool. He made this very clear in The Last Dance doc. He didn't retired because he was 35. He wanted to defend his latest championship but his front office was signalling that this was no longer the agenda. You and I both know this. Because his org was no longer interested in giving him or retaining the pieces to contend - he quit. I guess quiting when you don't have the right cards is better than trying to compete with another deck.

Can you send me an article where a credible source confirms that Jordan demanded help? Didnt Krause come out in 97 I believe and state that Jordan never demanded the Bulls trade for anyone?

[michaelm]

[instagram][/instagram]

Again, I don't know why you're comparing 30 year old Lebron to 24 year old Jordan. My contention is that Jordan's organization gave him players that developed by his third by his fourth year in the league. By year four the Cav's gave Lebron Hughes and Drew Gooden and was playing in the NBA finals. And by Jordan's fourth year in the league he was coming at Krauses neck (he was in his ass) for not fielding a competitive roster and went on record with alot of his comments.

The whole, Jordan LET the Bulls rebuild around hims is just revisionist history. He's given us every indication that he likely would have skipped town or demanded a trade if the Bulls didn't get him help in seven years. He clearly demanded help. Year two the Bulls tried to shut him down to get a higher draft pick but Jordan wanted to compete for a playoff spot. I think the Bulls only lost one more game than the Cavs who ended up with the first pick. Jordan was outraged at the idea of not winning now.

Jordan was also said to be in favor of trading Grant for Buck Williams who was a more established star and was really disrespectful to Grant (which probably influenced Grant turning snitch to help inform the Jordan Rules book.)

The Last Dance showed how Jordan was irritated with Krause obsession with Kukoc, partly because he was focusing too much energy in the future instead of the right now.

In 91 he flamed Krause for not signing a 35 year old Walter Davis and was quoted as saying if he were GM they'd be a better team (hindsight ) and tried to pressure the Bulls owner to fire him.



We have evidence that when you pair Lebron with a top 75 player that team wins a championship. There's no doubt in my mind that Lebron would have won a championship in Cleveland with Pippen and Grant but that's just my opinion. But I'd be willing to bet that Lebron wins his first year against the Warriors if he has Pippen and Grant, as he took the Warriors to six games with five games without Irving and Love and TT and Mosgov being his most competent comrades.



There is no insinuation. But NBA fans have a hard on for looking down on Lebron for empowering himself instead of waiting for an organiztaion to do its job. The cleary message is Lebron's championship are less valuable because he needed help and got it. Again, if his orgz did it is that fine? Every other top ten player and all time great started off their NBA careers with other great players to compete with:

Kareem got Oscar in year two
Magic got Kareem in year one and Worthy and Riley in year two I believe
Bird started off with I believ Nate Archibold and got Mchale and Parish before his fourth year if I'm not mistaken
Duncan got Robinson in year one and Manu, Parker and Pop for the rest of his career
Wilt had Paul Arizin and skipped town to LA and won with Jerry West
West had Elgin Baylor until he got Wilt
Russel had Red and Cousy
Hakeem started is career with Sampson
Kobe got Shaq
Shaq got Penny in year two

Lebron had nothing and when he did he bolted to joint two career losers who'd never made it to the playoffs, but yall are calling him leaving MIA for Cleveland "stacking the deck" as if it was viewed as such at the time. People were shocked.

Every single player that entered the league and was expected to be great got help early in their career but Lebron, and when he did get enough help to win a championship, he left to start over to play player and Co-Gm, but adversity. Coward only in yall heads.



Lebron left to play for the Cav's having played just about, or if not exactly the amount of seasons that Jordan did. If he can play 7 years with trash and win two championships than Jordan can stick around a few more years to entertain a rebuild, but coward. As if he didn't decide to play in Washington a few years later. When the Bul's decided we're going to unstack the deck for you Michael, Micchael said peace to the thought of adverisity...even just the idea of firing his coach.

You can see with clear eyes why a veteran player wouldn't want to retool to win a championship in Jordan's sake but not in Lebron's sake. Even though that's exactly what Lebron did in LA after winning three championships. And Lebron won his last championship two freaking years ago...at 38. When Jordan was 38 he was shooting sub 45 percent from the field and making no All NBA teams despite mising four seasons of wear and tear.

Lebron was sixth in MVP voting and his been ALl NBA for 18 years straight

Yes, it is only other people who are biased/prosecute agendas. You are now posting arrant nonsense after previously taking others to task for inaccuracy..

LeBron is 40 now which makes him 35 when he won his last championship which was in 2020 unless I have missed a whole NBA season since then. Jordan was the lead player on 4 title winning teams after the age of 30, the last in 1998 having turned 35 in February of that year, performing as well as any 35 year old has done. I don’t recall any narrative back then that he had picked an unreasonable time to retire or retired due to cowardice as you put it, remark more being made that he was still probably the best player in the world even at age 35.

Since when has it been mandatory to play till you are 40 or more ?. it isn’t now and certainly wasn’t back then. Jordan had a longer career than most back then and retired after a second threepeat which included the most successful season any team has ever had.

You will have to ask Jordan why he came back a second time to play for the Wizards, my working theory is that he just liked playing NBA basketball, doubtless including the attention/adulation he garnered doing so. I am fairly sure it wasn’t with any expectation of challenging Bill Russell for titles won or to accumulate longevity records.

Lol, yea your basketball soul is figuring it out but your flesh and blood is doing your best to deny it. That's why your adressing 1/8 of my post instead of the most salient points. I mispoke when I said he won a championship two years ago, I meant he was competing for one when they lost to the eventual Champs, the Nuggets.

Why do some of you poster do that? Instead of acknowleding that good points are being made or challenging your assertions (to be fair part of my argument was Jordan was not interested in allowing players to develop which was another poster argued Lebron would not) or at least addressing the main arguement ya'll will kind of attack low hanging fruit. The word count on my post was 833 words, you addressed just about the last 37 and ignored the rest, because you had to Your basketball soul knows better.

The point of my post was very clear. Jordan DEMANDED HELP. Very early on in an incredibly immature and toxic way and wanted to play with established stars. And just like every other all-time great, sans Lebron, he got it...very early on.

I don’t recall any narrative back then that he had picked an unreasonable time to retire or retired due to cowardice as you put it, remark more being made that he was still probably the best player in the world even at age 35.

Jordan retired because the Bulls were firing Phil Jackson and looking to rebuild/retool. He made this very clear in The Last Dance doc. He didn't retired because he was 35. He wanted to defend his latest championship but his front office was signalling that this was no longer the agenda. You and I both know this. Because his org was no longer interested in giving him or retaining the pieces to contend - he quit. I guess quiting when you don't have the right cards is better than trying to compete with another deck.

What are we arguing about ?. Certainly not the topic of this thread, in regard to which I have disagreed with Stockton at every turn, repeatedly stating that it was perfectly reasonable for LeBron to make the moves he did, and that he is by far the main reason his teams won 4 titles, although I consider AD to have been fairly co-equal in the last one.

Rather than being happy that most reasonable posters disagree with Stockton, you have entered into a nonsensical tangential debate which seems to involve Lebron being the only player ever worthy of being credited with titles and that everyone else including Jordan and Lebron's own contemporary Steph Curry only won because of team-mates and organisations. Sure neither player would have won on their own, but the organisations and team-mates concerned also won because of Jordan and Curry, and perhaps those players may have actually played a more team oriented game, Curry like my other favourite player in Tim Duncan by natural inclination, Jordan perhaps dragged there kicking and screaming by Jackson and Krause. Despite being one of the biggest egomaniacs in human history Jordan actually admitted he needed to play a team game to win. He also in the final analysis didn't insist on any of the bad team moves your comrade on arms listed which might have been his preference. He can be blamed for being the bad judge of talent he clearly was in a position of influence with Washington, but blaming him for not exercising the bad judgement he may have had when he was player is a new wrinkle.

And again, he can retire at the age of 35 after a long and very successful career for whatever reason he chooses, regardless of what Lebron partisans nearly 30 years later might promote as a fictional deficiency to exalt their guy. This was a later rather than earlier retirement age for most at the time, an era when sports science was in its infancy. That slacker Bill Russell also retired at the age of 35 after only 11 titles, the last 2 as coach. He doubtless should also have continued to prove he had true grit like LeBron. If Jordan retired because he didn't think he could win another title and was not interested in generating statistics for their own sake, as had pretty much been his career long attitude, good for him and for making the correct judgement in this regard, the list of players who have won titles as the lead player after the age of 35 is not a long one, it is in fact non existent and certainly doesn't and won't contain Lebron either. If I wished to engage in the same diminishment of Lebron which you attempt with Jordan, I could point out that Jordan's last title involved him still being clearly the best player on his team and also involved him playing a whole season. I count the bubble title the same as any other title myself, it was the same for every other player and team that season, but you are the one throwing the stones/attempting to make invalid distinctions to support your own agenda.

[OdomFan]

So again, if the "Big 3" was put together by management ya'll would be fine?

I believe he is saying you can’t have it both ways with which I agree. You contend Jordan was advantaged by the Bulls having a number 5 draft pick in Pippen who they could put next to Jordan, but LeBron pushed to trade a number 1 pick and could obviously have had the Cavs draft any other player in the draft that year. You also contend/complain that player in Love wasn’t as good next to LeBron as Grant was next to Jordan. You pay your money and you take your choice.

Again, I don't know why you're comparing 30 year old Lebron to 24 year old Jordan. My contention is that Jordan's organization gave him players that developed by his third by his fourth year in the league. By year four the Cav's gave Lebron Hughes and Drew Gooden and was playing in the NBA finals. And by Jordan's fourth year in the league he was coming at Krauses neck (he was in his ass) for not fielding a competitive roster and went on record with alot of his comments.

The whole, Jordan LET the Bulls rebuild around hims is just revisionist history. He's given us every indication that he likely would have skipped town or demanded a trade if the Bulls didn't get him help in seven years. He clearly demanded help. Year two the Bulls tried to shut him down to get a higher draft pick but Jordan wanted to compete for a playoff spot. I think the Bulls only lost one more game than the Cavs who ended up with the first pick. Jordan was outraged at the idea of not winning now.

Jordan was also said to be in favor of trading Grant for Buck Williams who was a more established star and was really disrespectful to Grant (which probably influenced Grant turning snitch to help inform the Jordan Rules book.)

The Last Dance showed how Jordan was irritated with Krause obsession with Kukoc, partly because he was focusing too much energy in the future instead of the right now.

In 91 he flamed Krause for not signing a 35 year old Walter Davis and was quoted as saying if he were GM they'd be a better team (hindsight ) and tried to pressure the Bulls owner to fire him.

Obviously LeBron’s teams don’t win the 4 titles without him. You haven’t and can’t present any evidence that the Bulls would have won those titles without Jordan either though, or that Pippen or Grant would have been as good next to LeBron as they were next to Jordan for that matter.

We have evidence that when you pair Lebron with a top 75 player that team wins a championship. There's no doubt in my mind that Lebron would have won a championship in Cleveland with Pippen and Grant but that's just my opinion. But I'd be willing to bet that Lebron wins his first year against the Warriors if he has Pippen and Grant, as he took the Warriors to six games with five games without Irving and Love and TT and Mosgov being his most competent comrades.

I disagree with Stockton that LeBron’s titles are less worthy, but also with insinuations that the titles won by the Jordan Bulls, the only 6 titles ever won by the Bulls, should be downgraded because of ‘advantages’.

There is no insinuation. But NBA fans have a hard on for looking down on Lebron for empowering himself instead of waiting for an organiztaion to do its job. The cleary message is Lebron's championship are less valuable because he needed help and got it. Again, if his orgz did it is that fine? Every other top ten player and all time great started off their NBA careers with other great players to compete with:

Kareem got Oscar in year two
Magic got Kareem in year one and Worthy and Riley in year two I believe
Bird started off with I believ Nate Archibold and got Mchale and Parish before his fourth year if I'm not mistaken
Duncan got Robinson in year one and Manu, Parker and Pop for the rest of his career
Wilt had Paul Arizin and skipped town to LA and won with Jerry West
West had Elgin Baylor until he got Wilt
Russel had Red and Cousy
Hakeem started is career with Sampson
Kobe got Shaq
Shaq got Penny in year two

Lebron had nothing and when he did he bolted to joint two career losers who'd never made it to the playoffs, but yall are calling him leaving MIA for Cleveland "stacking the deck" as if it was viewed as such at the time. People were shocked.

Every single player that entered the league and was expected to be great got help early in their career but Lebron, and when he did get enough help to win a championship, he left to start over to play player and Co-Gm, but adversity. Coward only in yall heads.

And why on earth should Jordan have kept going after the age of 35 in 1998 after the second of 2 threepeats which included a season which was and still is the best season any team has ever had ?. Should he have been concerned that some future player 22 years later might generate individual statistics by playing past the age of 35 without that player contending for titles himself ?.

Lebron left to play for the Cav's having played just about, or if not exactly the amount of seasons that Jordan did. If he can play 7 years with trash and win two championships than Jordan can stick around a few more years to entertain a rebuild, but coward. As if he didn't decide to play in Washington a few years later. When the Bul's decided we're going to unstack the deck for you Michael, Micchael said peace to the thought of adverisity...even just the idea of firing his coach.

You can see with clear eyes why a veteran player wouldn't want to retool to win a championship in Jordan's sake but not in Lebron's sake. Even though that's exactly what Lebron did in LA after winning three championships. And Lebron won his last championship two freaking years ago...at 38. When Jordan was 38 he was shooting sub 45 percent from the field and making no All NBA teams despite mising four seasons of wear and tear.

Lebron was sixth in MVP voting and his been ALl NBA for 18 years straight

wow. so much here that I disagree with.

You went on about the not so good parts about what Jordan had to say about Grant back then, that may all be so, but when it came down to it. like you said. They got pass all of that enough to be able to remain civil as a part of the core and it took nothing away from the success the team on to accomplished with Mike at the helm leading. Mike didn't need to be those guys buddy. His job was to make sure they were bringing it, and he did that. He had some doubts. If you ask me its understandable considering who he was playing with from 1984-87. He was dealing with a lot of drunks/drug users, etc so yeah. it took a long time for him to shake all that off and be able to trust some teammates in the NBA. Coach Doug Collins help for the 2 years that he coaches their walked MJs progress in the right direction so that Phil Jacksons approach later on could run it even further ahead to reach those championships. Once all that came into I'm sure there was never any doubt again from Mike about Horaces contributions.

Now on to the second part. You said Lebron had nothing in Cleveland. I disagree. Larry Hughes was a rising star caliber player that showed potential next to Allen Iverson in Philly, and did well with Arenas and Jamison as a core in both Golden State and later on when the 3 of them reunited together on the Washington Wizards. Im from DC so I witnessed it and thought they were a fun team. The Cavs didn't put a super team around Lebron back then, but he had pieces. Mo Williams was already a good point guard with the Bucks, Delonte West was a good 2 way guard, Big Z was good the moment he came in in 1996. I can go on and on. They had guys even after Boozer left for Utah. The real problem with Lebron is the way the team was being ran having everything go thorugh what Lebron wants to do with the ball. They had no strong willed coach ever with a actual system the way the Spurs had Pops, Bulls had the Triangle coached by Phil and Tex, etc. People say this and that team is so stacked but reality is the reason those teams were so great wasn't because they had this and that top level player, but because the system that they played in brought the best out of them. Thats how Parker and Ginobli went from 2nd round or late first round picks in their draft to developing into star players along side Tim Duncan.

Nobody could develop next to Lebron so he jumped around and basically rented stars time to try to win rings off of next to them, then when it didnt pan off after a while anymore, he jumped else where. You said Kyrie and Love wasn't a big 3? I disagree. Kyrie was a rising star with a ton of potential. Already in commercials. Kevin Love may not have been able to lead the Wolves far but individually he was still one of the top players in the NBA. With one of the best outside shots by a big. So it was a very big deal for Cleveland to get him over there with Kyrie and Lebron.