Stockton says LeBrons titles don’t have value

[Iwasawitness]

I believe he is saying you can’t have it both ways with which I agree. You contend Jordan was advantaged by the Bulls having a number 5 draft pick in Pippen who they could put next to Jordan, but LeBron pushed to trade a number 1 pick and could obviously have had the Cavs draft any other player in the draft that year. You also contend/complain that player in Love wasn’t as good next to LeBron as Grant was next to Jordan. You pay your money and you take your choice.

Again, I don't know why you're comparing 30 year old Lebron to 24 year old Jordan. My contention is that Jordan's organization gave him players that developed by his third by his fourth year in the league. By year four the Cav's gave Lebron Hughes and Drew Gooden and was playing in the NBA finals. And by Jordan's fourth year in the league he was coming at Krauses neck (he was in his ass) for not fielding a competitive roster and went on record with alot of his comments.

The whole, Jordan LET the Bulls rebuild around hims is just revisionist history. He's given us every indication that he likely would have skipped town or demanded a trade if the Bulls didn't get him help in seven years. He clearly demanded help. Year two the Bulls tried to shut him down to get a higher draft pick but Jordan wanted to compete for a playoff spot. I think the Bulls only lost one more game than the Cavs who ended up with the first pick. Jordan was outraged at the idea of not winning now.

Jordan was also said to be in favor of trading Grant for Buck Williams who was a more established star and was really disrespectful to Grant (which probably influenced Grant turning snitch to help inform the Jordan Rules book.)

The Last Dance showed how Jordan was irritated with Krause obsession with Kukoc, partly because he was focusing too much energy in the future instead of the right now.

In 91 he flamed Krause for not signing a 35 year old Walter Davis and was quoted as saying if he were GM they'd be a better team (hindsight ) and tried to pressure the Bulls owner to fire him.

Obviously LeBron’s teams don’t win the 4 titles without him. You haven’t and can’t present any evidence that the Bulls would have won those titles without Jordan either though, or that Pippen or Grant would have been as good next to LeBron as they were next to Jordan for that matter.

We have evidence that when you pair Lebron with a top 75 player that team wins a championship. There's no doubt in my mind that Lebron would have won a championship in Cleveland with Pippen and Grant but that's just my opinion. But I'd be willing to bet that Lebron wins his first year against the Warriors if he has Pippen and Grant, as he took the Warriors to six games with five games without Irving and Love and TT and Mosgov being his most competent comrades.

I disagree with Stockton that LeBron’s titles are less worthy, but also with insinuations that the titles won by the Jordan Bulls, the only 6 titles ever won by the Bulls, should be downgraded because of ‘advantages’.

There is no insinuation. But NBA fans have a hard on for looking down on Lebron for empowering himself instead of waiting for an organiztaion to do its job. The cleary message is Lebron's championship are less valuable because he needed help and got it. Again, if his orgz did it is that fine? Every other top ten player and all time great started off their NBA careers with other great players to compete with:

Kareem got Oscar in year two
Magic got Kareem in year one and Worthy and Riley in year two I believe
Bird started off with I believ Nate Archibold and got Mchale and Parish before his fourth year if I'm not mistaken
Duncan got Robinson in year one and Manu, Parker and Pop for the rest of his career
Wilt had Paul Arizin and skipped town to LA and won with Jerry West
West had Elgin Baylor until he got Wilt
Russel had Red and Cousy
Hakeem started is career with Sampson
Kobe got Shaq
Shaq got Penny in year two

Lebron had nothing and when he did he bolted to joint two career losers who'd never made it to the playoffs, but yall are calling him leaving MIA for Cleveland "stacking the deck" as if it was viewed as such at the time. People were shocked.

Every single player that entered the league and was expected to be great got help early in their career but Lebron, and when he did get enough help to win a championship, he left to start over to play player and Co-Gm, but adversity. Coward only in yall heads.

And why on earth should Jordan have kept going after the age of 35 in 1998 after the second of 2 threepeats which included a season which was and still is the best season any team has ever had ?. Should he have been concerned that some future player 22 years later might generate individual statistics by playing past the age of 35 without that player contending for titles himself ?.

Lebron left to play for the Cav's having played just about, or if not exactly the amount of seasons that Jordan did. If he can play 7 years with trash and win two championships than Jordan can stick around a few more years to entertain a rebuild, but coward. As if he didn't decide to play in Washington a few years later. When the Bul's decided we're going to unstack the deck for you Michael, Micchael said peace to the thought of adverisity...even just the idea of firing his coach.

You can see with clear eyes why a veteran player wouldn't want to retool to win a championship in Jordan's sake but not in Lebron's sake. Even though that's exactly what Lebron did in LA after winning three championships. And Lebron won his last championship two freaking years ago...at 38. When Jordan was 38 he was shooting sub 45 percent from the field and making no All NBA teams despite mising four seasons of wear and tear.

Lebron was sixth in MVP voting and his been ALl NBA for 18 years straight

wow. so much here that I disagree with.

You went on about the not so good parts about what Jordan had to say about Grant back then, that may all be so, but when it came down to it. like you said. They got pass all of that enough to be able to remain civil as a part of the core and it took nothing away from the success the team on to accomplished with Mike at the helm leading. Mike didn't need to be those guys buddy. His job was to make sure they were bringing it, and he did that. He had some doubts. If you ask me its understandable considering who he was playing with from 1984-87. He was dealing with a lot of drunks/drug users, etc so yeah. it took a long time for him to shake all that off and be able to trust some teammates in the NBA. Coach Doug Collins help for the 2 years that he coaches their walked MJs progress in the right direction so that Phil Jacksons approach later on could run it even further ahead to reach those championships. Once all that came into I'm sure there was never any doubt again from Mike about Horaces contributions.

Now on to the second part. You said Lebron had nothing in Cleveland. I disagree. Larry Hughes was a rising star caliber player that showed potential next to Allen Iverson in Philly, and did well with Arenas and Jamison as a core in both Golden State and later on when the 3 of them reunited together on the Washington Wizards. Im from DC so I witnessed it and thought they were a fun team. The Cavs didn't put a super team around Lebron back then, but he had pieces. Mo Williams was already a good point guard with the Bucks, Delonte West was a good 2 way guard, Big Z was good the moment he came in in 1996. I can go on and on. They had guys even after Boozer left for Utah. The real problem with Lebron is the way the team was being ran having everything go thorugh what Lebron wants to do with the ball. They had no strong willed coach ever with a actual system the way the Spurs had Pops, Bulls had the Triangle coached by Phil and Tex, etc. People say this and that team is so stacked but reality is the reason those teams were so great wasn't because they had this and that top level player, but because the system that they played in brought the best out of them. Thats how Parker and Ginobli went from 2nd round or late first round picks in their draft to developing into star players along side Tim Duncan.

Nobody could develop next to Lebron so he jumped around and basically rented stars time to try to win rings off of next to them, then when it didnt pan off after a while anymore, he jumped else where. You said Kyrie and Love wasn't a big 3? I disagree. Kyrie was a rising star with a ton of potential. Already in commercials. Kevin Love may not have been able to lead the Wolves far but individually he was still one of the top players in the NBA. With one of the best outside shots by a big. So it was a very big deal for Cleveland to get him over there with Kyrie and Lebron.

If you don't feel like reading this, just know that Odomfan listed Larry Hughes as legitimate help that LeBron had in his first stint with Cleveland.

Larry Hughes.

Let that sink in.

[Cavsfansince84]

If you don't feel like reading this, just know that Odomfan listed Larry Hughes as legitimate help that LeBron had in his first stint with Cleveland.

Larry Hughes.

Let that sink in.

He also left out Hughes back injury in year 1 and said Big Z was good from the moment he entered the league while failing to mention that he only played 1 of his first 4 seasons due to breaking both feet in different seasons(I think one of them he broke twice). He was not the same guy by the time he could finally play 75-80 games a year.

[Nate505]

40 pages! Do they still have value?

[michaelm]

Again, I don't know why you're comparing 30 year old Lebron to 24 year old Jordan. My contention is that Jordan's organization gave him players that developed by his third by his fourth year in the league. By year four the Cav's gave Lebron Hughes and Drew Gooden and was playing in the NBA finals. And by Jordan's fourth year in the league he was coming at Krauses neck (he was in his ass) for not fielding a competitive roster and went on record with alot of his comments.

The whole, Jordan LET the Bulls rebuild around hims is just revisionist history. He's given us every indication that he likely would have skipped town or demanded a trade if the Bulls didn't get him help in seven years. He clearly demanded help. Year two the Bulls tried to shut him down to get a higher draft pick but Jordan wanted to compete for a playoff spot. I think the Bulls only lost one more game than the Cavs who ended up with the first pick. Jordan was outraged at the idea of not winning now.

Jordan was also said to be in favor of trading Grant for Buck Williams who was a more established star and was really disrespectful to Grant (which probably influenced Grant turning snitch to help inform the Jordan Rules book.)

The Last Dance showed how Jordan was irritated with Krause obsession with Kukoc, partly because he was focusing too much energy in the future instead of the right now.

In 91 he flamed Krause for not signing a 35 year old Walter Davis and was quoted as saying if he were GM they'd be a better team (hindsight ) and tried to pressure the Bulls owner to fire him.



We have evidence that when you pair Lebron with a top 75 player that team wins a championship. There's no doubt in my mind that Lebron would have won a championship in Cleveland with Pippen and Grant but that's just my opinion. But I'd be willing to bet that Lebron wins his first year against the Warriors if he has Pippen and Grant, as he took the Warriors to six games with five games without Irving and Love and TT and Mosgov being his most competent comrades.



There is no insinuation. But NBA fans have a hard on for looking down on Lebron for empowering himself instead of waiting for an organiztaion to do its job. The cleary message is Lebron's championship are less valuable because he needed help and got it. Again, if his orgz did it is that fine? Every other top ten player and all time great started off their NBA careers with other great players to compete with:

Kareem got Oscar in year two
Magic got Kareem in year one and Worthy and Riley in year two I believe
Bird started off with I believ Nate Archibold and got Mchale and Parish before his fourth year if I'm not mistaken
Duncan got Robinson in year one and Manu, Parker and Pop for the rest of his career
Wilt had Paul Arizin and skipped town to LA and won with Jerry West
West had Elgin Baylor until he got Wilt
Russel had Red and Cousy
Hakeem started is career with Sampson
Kobe got Shaq
Shaq got Penny in year two

Lebron had nothing and when he did he bolted to joint two career losers who'd never made it to the playoffs, but yall are calling him leaving MIA for Cleveland "stacking the deck" as if it was viewed as such at the time. People were shocked.

Every single player that entered the league and was expected to be great got help early in their career but Lebron, and when he did get enough help to win a championship, he left to start over to play player and Co-Gm, but adversity. Coward only in yall heads.



Lebron left to play for the Cav's having played just about, or if not exactly the amount of seasons that Jordan did. If he can play 7 years with trash and win two championships than Jordan can stick around a few more years to entertain a rebuild, but coward. As if he didn't decide to play in Washington a few years later. When the Bul's decided we're going to unstack the deck for you Michael, Micchael said peace to the thought of adverisity...even just the idea of firing his coach.

You can see with clear eyes why a veteran player wouldn't want to retool to win a championship in Jordan's sake but not in Lebron's sake. Even though that's exactly what Lebron did in LA after winning three championships. And Lebron won his last championship two freaking years ago...at 38. When Jordan was 38 he was shooting sub 45 percent from the field and making no All NBA teams despite mising four seasons of wear and tear.

Lebron was sixth in MVP voting and his been ALl NBA for 18 years straight

wow. so much here that I disagree with.

You went on about the not so good parts about what Jordan had to say about Grant back then, that may all be so, but when it came down to it. like you said. They got pass all of that enough to be able to remain civil as a part of the core and it took nothing away from the success the team on to accomplished with Mike at the helm leading. Mike didn't need to be those guys buddy. His job was to make sure they were bringing it, and he did that. He had some doubts. If you ask me its understandable considering who he was playing with from 1984-87. He was dealing with a lot of drunks/drug users, etc so yeah. it took a long time for him to shake all that off and be able to trust some teammates in the NBA. Coach Doug Collins help for the 2 years that he coaches their walked MJs progress in the right direction so that Phil Jacksons approach later on could run it even further ahead to reach those championships. Once all that came into I'm sure there was never any doubt again from Mike about Horaces contributions.

Now on to the second part. You said Lebron had nothing in Cleveland. I disagree. Larry Hughes was a rising star caliber player that showed potential next to Allen Iverson in Philly, and did well with Arenas and Jamison as a core in both Golden State and later on when the 3 of them reunited together on the Washington Wizards. Im from DC so I witnessed it and thought they were a fun team. The Cavs didn't put a super team around Lebron back then, but he had pieces. Mo Williams was already a good point guard with the Bucks, Delonte West was a good 2 way guard, Big Z was good the moment he came in in 1996. I can go on and on. They had guys even after Boozer left for Utah. The real problem with Lebron is the way the team was being ran having everything go thorugh what Lebron wants to do with the ball. They had no strong willed coach ever with a actual system the way the Spurs had Pops, Bulls had the Triangle coached by Phil and Tex, etc. People say this and that team is so stacked but reality is the reason those teams were so great wasn't because they had this and that top level player, but because the system that they played in brought the best out of them. Thats how Parker and Ginobli went from 2nd round or late first round picks in their draft to developing into star players along side Tim Duncan.

Nobody could develop next to Lebron so he jumped around and basically rented stars time to try to win rings off of next to them, then when it didnt pan off after a while anymore, he jumped else where. You said Kyrie and Love wasn't a big 3? I disagree. Kyrie was a rising star with a ton of potential. Already in commercials. Kevin Love may not have been able to lead the Wolves far but individually he was still one of the top players in the NBA. With one of the best outside shots by a big. So it was a very big deal for Cleveland to get him over there with Kyrie and Lebron.

If you don't feel like reading this, just know that Odomfan listed Larry Hughes as legitimate help that LeBron had in his first stint with Cleveland.

Larry Hughes.

Let that sink in.

If we are talking logical inconsistency in a recent post decrying as fiction the notion that Jordan let Krause build the team you just listed several players who would have been poor choices whom you actually contend Jordan would have preferred if it had been left up to him rather than Krause.

[DimesandKnicks]

If you don't feel like reading this, just know that Odomfan listed Larry Hughes as legitimate help that LeBron had in his first stint with Cleveland.

Larry Hughes.

Let that sink in.

He also left out Hughes back injury in year 1 and said Big Z was good from the moment he entered the league while failing to mention that he only played 1 of his first 4 seasons due to breaking both feet in different seasons(I think one of them he broke twice). He was not the same guy by the time he could finally play 75-80 games a year.

Also failed to mention that in year two he dragged Larry Batman the third best player on the wizards Hughes to the finals only to lose to that team he mentioned had a legendary coach and system that bought the best out of its players, but you know…vibes I guess.

[Iwasawitness]

If you don't feel like reading this, just know that Odomfan listed Larry Hughes as legitimate help that LeBron had in his first stint with Cleveland.

Larry Hughes.

Let that sink in.

He also left out Hughes back injury in year 1 and said Big Z was good from the moment he entered the league while failing to mention that he only played 1 of his first 4 seasons due to breaking both feet in different seasons(I think one of them he broke twice). He was not the same guy by the time he could finally play 75-80 games a year.

Also failed to mention that in year two he dragged Larry Batman the third best player on the wizards Hughes to the finals only to lose to that team he mentioned had a legendary coach and system that bought the best out of its players, but you know…vibes I guess.

He also failed to mention that Mo Williams was practically a liability in the playoffs, to the point where he got outplayed by the Orlando Magic's backup point guard.

[DimesandKnicks]

I believe he is saying you can’t have it both ways with which I agree. You contend Jordan was advantaged by the Bulls having a number 5 draft pick in Pippen who they could put next to Jordan, but LeBron pushed to trade a number 1 pick and could obviously have had the Cavs draft any other player in the draft that year. You also contend/complain that player in Love wasn’t as good next to LeBron as Grant was next to Jordan. You pay your money and you take your choice.

Again, I don't know why you're comparing 30 year old Lebron to 24 year old Jordan. My contention is that Jordan's organization gave him players that developed by his third by his fourth year in the league. By year four the Cav's gave Lebron Hughes and Drew Gooden and was playing in the NBA finals. And by Jordan's fourth year in the league he was coming at Krauses neck (he was in his ass) for not fielding a competitive roster and went on record with alot of his comments.

The whole, Jordan LET the Bulls rebuild around hims is just revisionist history. He's given us every indication that he likely would have skipped town or demanded a trade if the Bulls didn't get him help in seven years. He clearly demanded help. Year two the Bulls tried to shut him down to get a higher draft pick but Jordan wanted to compete for a playoff spot. I think the Bulls only lost one more game than the Cavs who ended up with the first pick. Jordan was outraged at the idea of not winning now.

Jordan was also said to be in favor of trading Grant for Buck Williams who was a more established star and was really disrespectful to Grant (which probably influenced Grant turning snitch to help inform the Jordan Rules book.)

The Last Dance showed how Jordan was irritated with Krause obsession with Kukoc, partly because he was focusing too much energy in the future instead of the right now.

In 91 he flamed Krause for not signing a 35 year old Walter Davis and was quoted as saying if he were GM they'd be a better team (hindsight ) and tried to pressure the Bulls owner to fire him.

Obviously LeBron’s teams don’t win the 4 titles without him. You haven’t and can’t present any evidence that the Bulls would have won those titles without Jordan either though, or that Pippen or Grant would have been as good next to LeBron as they were next to Jordan for that matter.

We have evidence that when you pair Lebron with a top 75 player that team wins a championship. There's no doubt in my mind that Lebron would have won a championship in Cleveland with Pippen and Grant but that's just my opinion. But I'd be willing to bet that Lebron wins his first year against the Warriors if he has Pippen and Grant, as he took the Warriors to six games with five games without Irving and Love and TT and Mosgov being his most competent comrades.

I disagree with Stockton that LeBron’s titles are less worthy, but also with insinuations that the titles won by the Jordan Bulls, the only 6 titles ever won by the Bulls, should be downgraded because of ‘advantages’.

There is no insinuation. But NBA fans have a hard on for looking down on Lebron for empowering himself instead of waiting for an organiztaion to do its job. The cleary message is Lebron's championship are less valuable because he needed help and got it. Again, if his orgz did it is that fine? Every other top ten player and all time great started off their NBA careers with other great players to compete with:

Kareem got Oscar in year two
Magic got Kareem in year one and Worthy and Riley in year two I believe
Bird started off with I believ Nate Archibold and got Mchale and Parish before his fourth year if I'm not mistaken
Duncan got Robinson in year one and Manu, Parker and Pop for the rest of his career
Wilt had Paul Arizin and skipped town to LA and won with Jerry West
West had Elgin Baylor until he got Wilt
Russel had Red and Cousy
Hakeem started is career with Sampson
Kobe got Shaq
Shaq got Penny in year two

Lebron had nothing and when he did he bolted to joint two career losers who'd never made it to the playoffs, but yall are calling him leaving MIA for Cleveland "stacking the deck" as if it was viewed as such at the time. People were shocked.

Every single player that entered the league and was expected to be great got help early in their career but Lebron, and when he did get enough help to win a championship, he left to start over to play player and Co-Gm, but adversity. Coward only in yall heads.

And why on earth should Jordan have kept going after the age of 35 in 1998 after the second of 2 threepeats which included a season which was and still is the best season any team has ever had ?. Should he have been concerned that some future player 22 years later might generate individual statistics by playing past the age of 35 without that player contending for titles himself ?.

Lebron left to play for the Cav's having played just about, or if not exactly the amount of seasons that Jordan did. If he can play 7 years with trash and win two championships than Jordan can stick around a few more years to entertain a rebuild, but coward. As if he didn't decide to play in Washington a few years later. When the Bul's decided we're going to unstack the deck for you Michael, Micchael said peace to the thought of adverisity...even just the idea of firing his coach.

You can see with clear eyes why a veteran player wouldn't want to retool to win a championship in Jordan's sake but not in Lebron's sake. Even though that's exactly what Lebron did in LA after winning three championships. And Lebron won his last championship two freaking years ago...at 38. When Jordan was 38 he was shooting sub 45 percent from the field and making no All NBA teams despite mising four seasons of wear and tear.

Lebron was sixth in MVP voting and his been ALl NBA for 18 years straight

wow. so much here that I disagree with.

You went on about the not so good parts about what Jordan had to say about Grant back then, that may all be so, but when it came down to it. like you said. They got pass all of that enough to be able to remain civil as a part of the core and it took nothing away from the success the team on to accomplished with Mike at the helm leading. Mike didn't need to be those guys buddy. His job was to make sure they were bringing it, and he did that. He had some doubts. If you ask me its understandable considering who he was playing with from 1984-87. He was dealing with a lot of drunks/drug users, etc so yeah. it took a long time for him to shake all that off and be able to trust some teammates in the NBA. Coach Doug Collins help for the 2 years that he coaches their walked MJs progress in the right direction so that Phil Jacksons approach later on could run it even further ahead to reach those championships. Once all that came into I'm sure there was never any doubt again from Mike about Horaces contributions.

Now on to the second part. You said Lebron had nothing in Cleveland. I disagree. Larry Hughes was a rising star caliber player that showed potential next to Allen Iverson in Philly, and did well with Arenas and Jamison as a core in both Golden State and later on when the 3 of them reunited together on the Washington Wizards. Im from DC so I witnessed it and thought they were a fun team. The Cavs didn't put a super team around Lebron back then, but he had pieces. Mo Williams was already a good point guard with the Bucks, Delonte West was a good 2 way guard, Big Z was good the moment he came in in 1996. I can go on and on. They had guys even after Boozer left for Utah. The real problem with Lebron is the way the team was being ran having everything go thorugh what Lebron wants to do with the ball. They had no strong willed coach ever with a actual system the way the Spurs had Pops, Bulls had the Triangle coached by Phil and Tex, etc. People say this and that team is so stacked but reality is the reason those teams were so great wasn't because they had this and that top level player, but because the system that they played in brought the best out of them. Thats how Parker and Ginobli went from 2nd round or late first round picks in their draft to developing into star players along side Tim Duncan.

Nobody could develop next to Lebron so he jumped around and basically rented stars time to try to win rings off of next to them, then when it didnt pan off after a while anymore, he jumped else where. You said Kyrie and Love wasn't a big 3? I disagree. Kyrie was a rising star with a ton of potential. Already in commercials. Kevin Love may not have been able to lead the Wolves far but individually he was still one of the top players in the NBA. With one of the best outside shots by a big. So it was a very big deal for Cleveland to get him over there with Kyrie and Lebron.

I never said Love, Lebron and Irving wasn’t a big three. Just highlighting that leaving two players who were capable of dragging teams to the playoffs as the best player to join to players who could not isn’t stacking the deck.

Nor is leaving a “better run” organization for a worse run organization to join those players “stacking the deck”

[Iwasawitness]

Again, I don't know why you're comparing 30 year old Lebron to 24 year old Jordan. My contention is that Jordan's organization gave him players that developed by his third by his fourth year in the league. By year four the Cav's gave Lebron Hughes and Drew Gooden and was playing in the NBA finals. And by Jordan's fourth year in the league he was coming at Krauses neck (he was in his ass) for not fielding a competitive roster and went on record with alot of his comments.

The whole, Jordan LET the Bulls rebuild around hims is just revisionist history. He's given us every indication that he likely would have skipped town or demanded a trade if the Bulls didn't get him help in seven years. He clearly demanded help. Year two the Bulls tried to shut him down to get a higher draft pick but Jordan wanted to compete for a playoff spot. I think the Bulls only lost one more game than the Cavs who ended up with the first pick. Jordan was outraged at the idea of not winning now.

Jordan was also said to be in favor of trading Grant for Buck Williams who was a more established star and was really disrespectful to Grant (which probably influenced Grant turning snitch to help inform the Jordan Rules book.)

The Last Dance showed how Jordan was irritated with Krause obsession with Kukoc, partly because he was focusing too much energy in the future instead of the right now.

In 91 he flamed Krause for not signing a 35 year old Walter Davis and was quoted as saying if he were GM they'd be a better team (hindsight ) and tried to pressure the Bulls owner to fire him.



We have evidence that when you pair Lebron with a top 75 player that team wins a championship. There's no doubt in my mind that Lebron would have won a championship in Cleveland with Pippen and Grant but that's just my opinion. But I'd be willing to bet that Lebron wins his first year against the Warriors if he has Pippen and Grant, as he took the Warriors to six games with five games without Irving and Love and TT and Mosgov being his most competent comrades.



There is no insinuation. But NBA fans have a hard on for looking down on Lebron for empowering himself instead of waiting for an organiztaion to do its job. The cleary message is Lebron's championship are less valuable because he needed help and got it. Again, if his orgz did it is that fine? Every other top ten player and all time great started off their NBA careers with other great players to compete with:

Kareem got Oscar in year two
Magic got Kareem in year one and Worthy and Riley in year two I believe
Bird started off with I believ Nate Archibold and got Mchale and Parish before his fourth year if I'm not mistaken
Duncan got Robinson in year one and Manu, Parker and Pop for the rest of his career
Wilt had Paul Arizin and skipped town to LA and won with Jerry West
West had Elgin Baylor until he got Wilt
Russel had Red and Cousy
Hakeem started is career with Sampson
Kobe got Shaq
Shaq got Penny in year two

Lebron had nothing and when he did he bolted to joint two career losers who'd never made it to the playoffs, but yall are calling him leaving MIA for Cleveland "stacking the deck" as if it was viewed as such at the time. People were shocked.

Every single player that entered the league and was expected to be great got help early in their career but Lebron, and when he did get enough help to win a championship, he left to start over to play player and Co-Gm, but adversity. Coward only in yall heads.



Lebron left to play for the Cav's having played just about, or if not exactly the amount of seasons that Jordan did. If he can play 7 years with trash and win two championships than Jordan can stick around a few more years to entertain a rebuild, but coward. As if he didn't decide to play in Washington a few years later. When the Bul's decided we're going to unstack the deck for you Michael, Micchael said peace to the thought of adverisity...even just the idea of firing his coach.

You can see with clear eyes why a veteran player wouldn't want to retool to win a championship in Jordan's sake but not in Lebron's sake. Even though that's exactly what Lebron did in LA after winning three championships. And Lebron won his last championship two freaking years ago...at 38. When Jordan was 38 he was shooting sub 45 percent from the field and making no All NBA teams despite mising four seasons of wear and tear.

Lebron was sixth in MVP voting and his been ALl NBA for 18 years straight

wow. so much here that I disagree with.

You went on about the not so good parts about what Jordan had to say about Grant back then, that may all be so, but when it came down to it. like you said. They got pass all of that enough to be able to remain civil as a part of the core and it took nothing away from the success the team on to accomplished with Mike at the helm leading. Mike didn't need to be those guys buddy. His job was to make sure they were bringing it, and he did that. He had some doubts. If you ask me its understandable considering who he was playing with from 1984-87. He was dealing with a lot of drunks/drug users, etc so yeah. it took a long time for him to shake all that off and be able to trust some teammates in the NBA. Coach Doug Collins help for the 2 years that he coaches their walked MJs progress in the right direction so that Phil Jacksons approach later on could run it even further ahead to reach those championships. Once all that came into I'm sure there was never any doubt again from Mike about Horaces contributions.

Now on to the second part. You said Lebron had nothing in Cleveland. I disagree. Larry Hughes was a rising star caliber player that showed potential next to Allen Iverson in Philly, and did well with Arenas and Jamison as a core in both Golden State and later on when the 3 of them reunited together on the Washington Wizards. Im from DC so I witnessed it and thought they were a fun team. The Cavs didn't put a super team around Lebron back then, but he had pieces. Mo Williams was already a good point guard with the Bucks, Delonte West was a good 2 way guard, Big Z was good the moment he came in in 1996. I can go on and on. They had guys even after Boozer left for Utah. The real problem with Lebron is the way the team was being ran having everything go thorugh what Lebron wants to do with the ball. They had no strong willed coach ever with a actual system the way the Spurs had Pops, Bulls had the Triangle coached by Phil and Tex, etc. People say this and that team is so stacked but reality is the reason those teams were so great wasn't because they had this and that top level player, but because the system that they played in brought the best out of them. Thats how Parker and Ginobli went from 2nd round or late first round picks in their draft to developing into star players along side Tim Duncan.

Nobody could develop next to Lebron so he jumped around and basically rented stars time to try to win rings off of next to them, then when it didnt pan off after a while anymore, he jumped else where. You said Kyrie and Love wasn't a big 3? I disagree. Kyrie was a rising star with a ton of potential. Already in commercials. Kevin Love may not have been able to lead the Wolves far but individually he was still one of the top players in the NBA. With one of the best outside shots by a big. So it was a very big deal for Cleveland to get him over there with Kyrie and Lebron.

I never said Love, Lebron and Irving wasn’t a big three. Just highlighting that leaving two players who were capable of dragging teams to the playoffs as the best player to join to players who could not isn’t stacking the deck.

Nor is leaving a “better run” organization for a worse run organization to join those players “stacking the deck”

None of what LeBron has done is stacking the deck. It absolutely amazes me how many people out there continue to use this term to describe what LeBron has done when if you go by the exact definition of what it actually is, base it on what actually happened, and use a little bit of common sense, there's no possible way LeBron in anyway shape or form stacked the deck. It's an incredibly stupid argument to make and yet for some reason, it's a popular one. I don't get it.

[levon]

40 pages! Do they still have value?

40 pages of this nonsense and we couldn't even make it to page 3 of the fat Zion thread. Such a shame.

[NbaAllDay]

I believe he is saying you can’t have it both ways with which I agree. You contend Jordan was advantaged by the Bulls having a number 5 draft pick in Pippen who they could put next to Jordan, but LeBron pushed to trade a number 1 pick and could obviously have had the Cavs draft any other player in the draft that year. You also contend/complain that player in Love wasn’t as good next to LeBron as Grant was next to Jordan. You pay your money and you take your choice.

Again, I don't know why you're comparing 30 year old Lebron to 24 year old Jordan. My contention is that Jordan's organization gave him players that developed by his third by his fourth year in the league. By year four the Cav's gave Lebron Hughes and Drew Gooden and was playing in the NBA finals. And by Jordan's fourth year in the league he was coming at Krauses neck (he was in his ass) for not fielding a competitive roster and went on record with alot of his comments.

The whole, Jordan LET the Bulls rebuild around hims is just revisionist history. He's given us every indication that he likely would have skipped town or demanded a trade if the Bulls didn't get him help in seven years. He clearly demanded help. Year two the Bulls tried to shut him down to get a higher draft pick but Jordan wanted to compete for a playoff spot. I think the Bulls only lost one more game than the Cavs who ended up with the first pick. Jordan was outraged at the idea of not winning now.

Jordan was also said to be in favor of trading Grant for Buck Williams who was a more established star and was really disrespectful to Grant (which probably influenced Grant turning snitch to help inform the Jordan Rules book.)

The Last Dance showed how Jordan was irritated with Krause obsession with Kukoc, partly because he was focusing too much energy in the future instead of the right now.

In 91 he flamed Krause for not signing a 35 year old Walter Davis and was quoted as saying if he were GM they'd be a better team (hindsight ) and tried to pressure the Bulls owner to fire him.

Obviously LeBron’s teams don’t win the 4 titles without him. You haven’t and can’t present any evidence that the Bulls would have won those titles without Jordan either though, or that Pippen or Grant would have been as good next to LeBron as they were next to Jordan for that matter.

We have evidence that when you pair Lebron with a top 75 player that team wins a championship. There's no doubt in my mind that Lebron would have won a championship in Cleveland with Pippen and Grant but that's just my opinion. But I'd be willing to bet that Lebron wins his first year against the Warriors if he has Pippen and Grant, as he took the Warriors to six games with five games without Irving and Love and TT and Mosgov being his most competent comrades.

I disagree with Stockton that LeBron’s titles are less worthy, but also with insinuations that the titles won by the Jordan Bulls, the only 6 titles ever won by the Bulls, should be downgraded because of ‘advantages’.

There is no insinuation. But NBA fans have a hard on for looking down on Lebron for empowering himself instead of waiting for an organiztaion to do its job. The cleary message is Lebron's championship are less valuable because he needed help and got it. Again, if his orgz did it is that fine? Every other top ten player and all time great started off their NBA careers with other great players to compete with:

Kareem got Oscar in year two
Magic got Kareem in year one and Worthy and Riley in year two I believe
Bird started off with I believ Nate Archibold and got Mchale and Parish before his fourth year if I'm not mistaken
Duncan got Robinson in year one and Manu, Parker and Pop for the rest of his career
Wilt had Paul Arizin and skipped town to LA and won with Jerry West
West had Elgin Baylor until he got Wilt
Russel had Red and Cousy
Hakeem started is career with Sampson
Kobe got Shaq
Shaq got Penny in year two

Lebron had nothing and when he did he bolted to joint two career losers who'd never made it to the playoffs, but yall are calling him leaving MIA for Cleveland "stacking the deck" as if it was viewed as such at the time. People were shocked.

Every single player that entered the league and was expected to be great got help early in their career but Lebron, and when he did get enough help to win a championship, he left to start over to play player and Co-Gm, but adversity. Coward only in yall heads.

And why on earth should Jordan have kept going after the age of 35 in 1998 after the second of 2 threepeats which included a season which was and still is the best season any team has ever had ?. Should he have been concerned that some future player 22 years later might generate individual statistics by playing past the age of 35 without that player contending for titles himself ?.

Lebron left to play for the Cav's having played just about, or if not exactly the amount of seasons that Jordan did. If he can play 7 years with trash and win two championships than Jordan can stick around a few more years to entertain a rebuild, but coward. As if he didn't decide to play in Washington a few years later. When the Bul's decided we're going to unstack the deck for you Michael, Micchael said peace to the thought of adverisity...even just the idea of firing his coach.

You can see with clear eyes why a veteran player wouldn't want to retool to win a championship in Jordan's sake but not in Lebron's sake. Even though that's exactly what Lebron did in LA after winning three championships. And Lebron won his last championship two freaking years ago...at 38. When Jordan was 38 he was shooting sub 45 percent from the field and making no All NBA teams despite mising four seasons of wear and tear.

Lebron was sixth in MVP voting and his been ALl NBA for 18 years straight

wow. so much here that I disagree with.

You went on about the not so good parts about what Jordan had to say about Grant back then, that may all be so, but when it came down to it. like you said. They got pass all of that enough to be able to remain civil as a part of the core and it took nothing away from the success the team on to accomplished with Mike at the helm leading. Mike didn't need to be those guys buddy. His job was to make sure they were bringing it, and he did that. He had some doubts. If you ask me its understandable considering who he was playing with from 1984-87. He was dealing with a lot of drunks/drug users, etc so yeah. it took a long time for him to shake all that off and be able to trust some teammates in the NBA. Coach Doug Collins help for the 2 years that he coaches their walked MJs progress in the right direction so that Phil Jacksons approach later on could run it even further ahead to reach those championships. Once all that came into I'm sure there was never any doubt again from Mike about Horaces contributions.

Now on to the second part. You said Lebron had nothing in Cleveland. I disagree. Larry Hughes was a rising star caliber player that showed potential next to Allen Iverson in Philly, and did well with Arenas and Jamison as a core in both Golden State and later on when the 3 of them reunited together on the Washington Wizards. Im from DC so I witnessed it and thought they were a fun team. The Cavs didn't put a super team around Lebron back then, but he had pieces. Mo Williams was already a good point guard with the Bucks, Delonte West was a good 2 way guard, Big Z was good the moment he came in in 1996. I can go on and on. They had guys even after Boozer left for Utah. The real problem with Lebron is the way the team was being ran having everything go thorugh what Lebron wants to do with the ball. They had no strong willed coach ever with a actual system the way the Spurs had Pops, Bulls had the Triangle coached by Phil and Tex, etc. People say this and that team is so stacked but reality is the reason those teams were so great wasn't because they had this and that top level player, but because the system that they played in brought the best out of them. Thats how Parker and Ginobli went from 2nd round or late first round picks in their draft to developing into star players along side Tim Duncan.

Nobody could develop next to Lebron so he jumped around and basically rented stars time to try to win rings off of next to them, then when it didnt pan off after a while anymore, he jumped else where. You said Kyrie and Love wasn't a big 3? I disagree. Kyrie was a rising star with a ton of potential. Already in commercials. Kevin Love may not have been able to lead the Wolves far but individually he was still one of the top players in the NBA. With one of the best outside shots by a big. So it was a very big deal for Cleveland to get him over there with Kyrie and Lebron.

MJ had players with 'drug issues' from 84 to 87 so all is understandable. MJ made sure they were 'bringing it' but also when they didn't bring it its understandable cause drugs and stuff.

Lebron on the other hand had the GOAT Larry Hughes and all time great Big Z. Lebron apparently was too busy playing Lebron ball and not allowing players to develop around him. I legit saw some games in which he actively defended his teammates to stop all forms of development. I was shocked.

I even heard stories of Lebron verbally abusing his team mates and belittling them for every mistake. That could be a big factor in it. At one time he punched one in the face.

Kyrie in commercials = Star. Scalabrine was in commercials too so that actually checks out.

[zimpy27]

40 pages! Do they still have value?

40 pages of this nonsense and we couldn't even make it to page 3 of the fat Zion thread. Such a shame.

If people here value their time and they spend a more time discussing these titles than any other topic then I think they do have value.

Anyone want to argue me on this?

Spoiler:

checkmate

[DimesandKnicks]

What are we arguing about ?. Certainly not the topic of this thread, in regard to which I have disagreed with Stockton at every turn, repeatedly stating that it was perfectly reasonable for LeBron to make the moves he did, and that he is by far the main reason his teams won 4 titles, although I consider AD to have been fairly co-equal in the last one.

You said the following:

The question is not so much whether Jordan taught the likes of Pippen and Grant but whether they would have been drafted in the first place and given the time to develop, or Pippen given the role into which he developed, in the circumstances LeBron was in once he decided to go win now in 2010. I don’t disagree that LeBron never had the opportunity to choose Jordan’s path, but construction of his teams since then has involved win now players including trading a number 1 draft pick for same.

I believe he is saying you can’t have it both ways with which I agree. You contend Jordan was advantaged by the Bulls having a number 5 draft pick in Pippen who they could put next to Jordan, but LeBron pushed to trade a number 1 pick and could obviously have had the Cavs draft any other player in the draft that year. You also contend/complain that the player resulting from the trade in Love wasn’t as good next to LeBron as Grant was next to Jordan. You pay your money and you take your choice.

I'm arguing that comparing 24ish MJ to a 30 year old Lebron is a false equivalency and that Jordan was in win now mode as soon as he got into the league, and was as interested in letting Pippen and Grant develop or building through the draft as Lebron was in Cleveland when they traded the first pick for Lebron. That's why I provided those examples.

Rather than being happy that most reasonable posters disagree with Stockton, you have entered into a nonsensical tangential debate which seems to involve Lebron being the only player ever worthy of being credited with titles and that everyone else including Jordan and Lebron's own contemporary Steph Curry only won because of team-mates and organisations.

Just for context, I'm only bring up Jordan because he is the undisputed goat, and highlighting that he wasn't pulling himself up by his bootstraps. He was asking for immediate help. So Stockton is indugling in revisionist history. Idk how you interpreted my arguments as "Lebron is the only palyer ever worhty of being credited with titles and eberyone else won because of teammates." Clearly I'm saying, EVERYONE who won championships won because they had help (sans Hakeem), including Lebron.

Sure neither player would have won on their own, but the organisations and team-mates concerned also won because of Jordan and Curry, and perhaps those players may have actually played a more team oriented game, Curry like my other favourite player in Tim Duncan by natural inclination, Jordan perhaps dragged there kicking and screaming by Jackson and Krause. Despite being one of the biggest egomaniacs in human history Jordan actually admitted he needed to play a team game to win.

Jordan took more shots and has a greater USG than Lebron despite getting help much earlier on. He got a HOF that implemented a system. Lebron never had this and when he joined MIA. I also recall their being a narrative when James joined the Heat in year one that Lebron deffered to much to wade and by year two Wade had to let Lebron know that the Heat were now his team.

He also in the final analysis didn't insist on any of the bad team moves your comrade on arms listed which might have been his preference. He can be blamed for being the bad judge of talent he clearly was in a position of influence with Washington, but blaming him for not exercising the bad judgement he may have had when he was player is a new wrinkle.

Again Michael, this is my point. He was on an organization that made the right moves. Jordan pressured Krause and owner ship to make poor signing and trade draft picks, not encourage them to build through the draft and let young players develop. And Jordan trading a young Rip Hamilton for an older Jerry Stackhouse is another example of Jordan not being interested in allowing young players develop for win now moves.

And again, he can retire at the age of 35 after a long and very successful career for whatever reason he chooses, regardless of what Lebron partisans nearly 30 years later might promote as a fictional deficiency to exalt their guy. This was a later rather than earlier retirement age for most at the time, an era when sports science was in its infancy. That slacker Bill Russell also retired at the age of 35 after only 11 titles, the last 2 as coach. He doubtless should also have continued to prove he had true grit like LeBron. If Jordan retired because he didn't think he could win another title and was not interested in generating statistics for their own sake, as had pretty much been his career long attitude, good for him and for making the correct judgement in this regard, the list of players who have won titles as the lead player after the age of 35 is not a long one, it is in fact non existent and certainly doesn't and won't contain Lebron either.

We know exactly why Jordan retired and it is because the Bulls were going to retool. He said this himself. If all the players who won the last title were signed to one year contract and Jackson was still coach he would have played another year. And this arguement isn't aimed at you as you feel there is nothing wrong with Lebron's moves to Cleveland/Lakers. But to those who say Lebron continued to stack the deck and didn't want to compete (like Stockton) when Jordan was faced with the same option, he quit.

If I wished to engage in the same diminishment of Lebron which you attempt with Jordan, I could point out that Jordan's last title involved him still being clearly the best player on his team and also involved him playing a whole season. I count the bubble title the same as any other title myself, it was the same for every other player and team that season, but you are the one throwing the stones/attempting to make invalid distinctions to support your own agenda.

I'm not diminishing Jordan's career or accomplishments. I'm using him as a proxy to debate the idea that players back in the day weren't interested in "stacking the deck" and asking for help - the perfect player to use as he is the undisputed GOAT on this forum.

We could pick from the top 25 players of all time and they either asked for help or already had it.

[Rust_Cohle]

40 pages! Do they still have value?

40 pages of this nonsense and we couldn't even make it to page 3 of the fat Zion thread. Such a shame.

If people here value their time and they spend a more time discussing these titles than any other topic then I think they do have value.

Anyone want to argue me on this?

Spoiler:

checkmate

Time you enjoy wasting is not wasted time

[DimesandKnicks]

Yes, it is only other people who are biased/prosecute agendas. You are now posting arrant nonsense after previously taking others to task for inaccuracy..

LeBron is 40 now which makes him 35 when he won his last championship which was in 2020 unless I have missed a whole NBA season since then. Jordan was the lead player on 4 title winning teams after the age of 30, the last in 1998 having turned 35 in February of that year, performing as well as any 35 year old has done. I don’t recall any narrative back then that he had picked an unreasonable time to retire or retired due to cowardice as you put it, remark more being made that he was still probably the best player in the world even at age 35.

Since when has it been mandatory to play till you are 40 or more ?. it isn’t now and certainly wasn’t back then. Jordan had a longer career than most back then and retired after a second threepeat which included the most successful season any team has ever had.

You will have to ask Jordan why he came back a second time to play for the Wizards, my working theory is that he just liked playing NBA basketball, doubtless including the attention/adulation he garnered doing so. I am fairly sure it wasn’t with any expectation of challenging Bill Russell for titles won or to accumulate longevity records.

Lol, yea your basketball soul is figuring it out but your flesh and blood is doing your best to deny it. That's why your adressing 1/8 of my post instead of the most salient points. I mispoke when I said he won a championship two years ago, I meant he was competing for one when they lost to the eventual Champs, the Nuggets.

Why do some of you poster do that? Instead of acknowleding that good points are being made or challenging your assertions (to be fair part of my argument was Jordan was not interested in allowing players to develop which was another poster argued Lebron would not) or at least addressing the main arguement ya'll will kind of attack low hanging fruit. The word count on my post was 833 words, you addressed just about the last 37 and ignored the rest, because you had to Your basketball soul knows better.

The point of my post was very clear. Jordan DEMANDED HELP. Very early on in an incredibly immature and toxic way and wanted to play with established stars. And just like every other all-time great, sans Lebron, he got it...very early on.

I don’t recall any narrative back then that he had picked an unreasonable time to retire or retired due to cowardice as you put it, remark more being made that he was still probably the best player in the world even at age 35.

Jordan retired because the Bulls were firing Phil Jackson and looking to rebuild/retool. He made this very clear in The Last Dance doc. He didn't retired because he was 35. He wanted to defend his latest championship but his front office was signalling that this was no longer the agenda. You and I both know this. Because his org was no longer interested in giving him or retaining the pieces to contend - he quit. I guess quiting when you don't have the right cards is better than trying to compete with another deck.

Can you send me an article where a credible source confirms that Jordan demanded help? Didnt Krause come out in 97 I believe and state that Jordan never demanded the Bulls trade for anyone?

Google Michael Jordan Walter Davis Jerry Krause and you’ll find Jordan on record going after Krause with vitriol for not trading for Walter Davis. This, I believe was a year after Pippen had already been an allstar and he did it the year the Bulls would actually go on to win their first championship.

As far as the Bucks Williams trade, which he was said to be willing to trade Pippen or Grant for, you can find that in Stan Smiths book.

Smith was a beat writer for the Bulls, traveled with the team and had relationships with players and staff. He wrote the book in 91 and much of what he wrote about in the book (in terms of Jordan’s toxic nature) was confirmed by The Last Dance documentary decades later

[michaelm]

What are we arguing about ?. Certainly not the topic of this thread, in regard to which I have disagreed with Stockton at every turn, repeatedly stating that it was perfectly reasonable for LeBron to make the moves he did, and that he is by far the main reason his teams won 4 titles, although I consider AD to have been fairly co-equal in the last one.

You said the following:

The question is not so much whether Jordan taught the likes of Pippen and Grant but whether they would have been drafted in the first place and given the time to develop, or Pippen given the role into which he developed, in the circumstances LeBron was in once he decided to go win now in 2010. I don’t disagree that LeBron never had the opportunity to choose Jordan’s path, but construction of his teams since then has involved win now players including trading a number 1 draft pick for same.

I believe he is saying you can’t have it both ways with which I agree. You contend Jordan was advantaged by the Bulls having a number 5 draft pick in Pippen who they could put next to Jordan, but LeBron pushed to trade a number 1 pick and could obviously have had the Cavs draft any other player in the draft that year. You also contend/complain that the player resulting from the trade in Love wasn’t as good next to LeBron as Grant was next to Jordan. You pay your money and you take your choice.

I'm arguing that comparing 24ish MJ to a 30 year old Lebron is a false equivalency and that Jordan was in win now mode as soon as he got into the league, and was as interested in letting Pippen and Grant develop or building through the draft as Lebron was in Cleveland when they traded the first pick for Lebron. That's why I provided those examples.

Rather than being happy that most reasonable posters disagree with Stockton, you have entered into a nonsensical tangential debate which seems to involve Lebron being the only player ever worthy of being credited with titles and that everyone else including Jordan and Lebron's own contemporary Steph Curry only won because of team-mates and organisations.

Just for context, I'm only bring up Jordan because he is the undisputed goat, and highlighting that he wasn't pulling himself up by his bootstraps. He was asking for immediate help. So Stockton is indugling in revisionist history. Idk how you interpreted my arguments as "Lebron is the only palyer ever worhty of being credited with titles and eberyone else won because of teammates." Clearly I'm saying, EVERYONE who won championships won because they had help (sans Hakeem), including Lebron.

Sure neither player would have won on their own, but the organisations and team-mates concerned also won because of Jordan and Curry, and perhaps those players may have actually played a more team oriented game, Curry like my other favourite player in Tim Duncan by natural inclination, Jordan perhaps dragged there kicking and screaming by Jackson and Krause. Despite being one of the biggest egomaniacs in human history Jordan actually admitted he needed to play a team game to win.

Jordan took more shots and has a greater USG than Lebron despite getting help much earlier on. He got a HOF that implemented a system. Lebron never had this and when he joined MIA. I also recall their being a narrative when James joined the Heat in year one that Lebron deffered to much to wade and by year two Wade had to let Lebron know that the Heat were now his team.

He also in the final analysis didn't insist on any of the bad team moves your comrade on arms listed which might have been his preference. He can be blamed for being the bad judge of talent he clearly was in a position of influence with Washington, but blaming him for not exercising the bad judgement he may have had when he was player is a new wrinkle.

Again Michael, this is my point. He was on an organization that made the right moves. Jordan pressured Krause and owner ship to make poor signing and trade draft picks, not encourage them to build through the draft and let young players develop. And Jordan trading a young Rip Hamilton for an older Jerry Stackhouse is another example of Jordan not being interested in allowing young players develop for win now moves.

And again, he can retire at the age of 35 after a long and very successful career for whatever reason he chooses, regardless of what Lebron partisans nearly 30 years later might promote as a fictional deficiency to exalt their guy. This was a later rather than earlier retirement age for most at the time, an era when sports science was in its infancy. That slacker Bill Russell also retired at the age of 35 after only 11 titles, the last 2 as coach. He doubtless should also have continued to prove he had true grit like LeBron. If Jordan retired because he didn't think he could win another title and was not interested in generating statistics for their own sake, as had pretty much been his career long attitude, good for him and for making the correct judgement in this regard, the list of players who have won titles as the lead player after the age of 35 is not a long one, it is in fact non existent and certainly doesn't and won't contain Lebron either.

We know exactly why Jordan retired and it is because the Bulls were going to retool. He said this himself. If all the players who won the last title were signed to one year contract and Jackson was still coach he would have played another year. And this arguement isn't aimed at you as you feel there is nothing wrong with Lebron's moves to Cleveland/Lakers. But to those who say Lebron continued to stack the deck and didn't want to compete (like Stockton) when Jordan was faced with the same option, he quit.

If I wished to engage in the same diminishment of Lebron which you attempt with Jordan, I could point out that Jordan's last title involved him still being clearly the best player on his team and also involved him playing a whole season. I count the bubble title the same as any other title myself, it was the same for every other player and team that season, but you are the one throwing the stones/attempting to make invalid distinctions to support your own agenda.

I'm not diminishing Jordan's career or accomplishments. I'm using him as a proxy to debate the idea that players back in the day weren't interested in "stacking the deck" and asking for help - the perfect player to use as he is the undisputed GOAT on this forum.

We could pick from the top 25 players of all time and they either asked for help or already had it.

You launched into the Jordan stuff as is the wont of those of your ilk. I responded. At all times I have said LeBron had no option to win championships at the Cavs due to the quality of the organisation the first time around, and was justified in leaving.

And again, you try to make a negative out of Jordan retiring at the age of 35 in 1998, elderly at that time, after a feat unprecedented since the Bill Russell Celtics in the infancy of the sport of leading a second threepeat as the universally acclaimed best player in the NBA with no caveats and as the consensus GOAT. He didn't need to keep playing to pass Kareem's points record to have some further claim on greatness, no one at the time, rightly or wrongly, thought Kareem was better than him. As I said Bill Russell retired at age 35 himself, was this because a crystal ball told him Lebron would put him in the shade 41 years later by continuing after that age ?. Was Bill a coward for not trying for a 12th title ?. Utter nonsense. Jordan like Bill could retire any time he felt like it after all he had achieved, and if being pissed off at the Bulls owner whom he had made so much wealthier was among Jordan's reasons so what ?, perhaps he was early into the player empowerment thing. Again, list players who have won titles as the lead player after the age of 35, the answer as I said is zero including LeBron. And when I said contend I didn't mean get absolutely smashed whether or not by the eventual title winner before the finals, there was never any chance of those Lakers teams winning the title, many contend partly because old Lebron can't play out a whole regular season then through a whole play-off series. Even if Jordan retired because he didn't think he could continue to be the best player in the world and win titles if he kept going after the second threepeat, again so what ?, there comes a time for everyone. Lebron has generated some nice numbers since 2020 but no one is under any illusion he has been the best player in the NBA over that period.

And you make the same internally contradictory point as your fellow traveller, how is Jerry Krause making better decisions than Jordan would have made proof that Krause wasn't allowed to build the Bulls teams by Jordan ?. What does it matter if he accepted Krause's decisions grudgingly ?. Steph Curry by wide repute didn't want GSW to fire Mark Jackson either, but go on with things with a new coach with some success. Does this mean he and his teams didn't really win the 4 titles, which most GSW fans doubt would have occurred had GSW continued with Mark Jackson.

[DimesandKnicks]

What are we arguing about ?. Certainly not the topic of this thread, in regard to which I have disagreed with Stockton at every turn, repeatedly stating that it was perfectly reasonable for LeBron to make the moves he did, and that he is by far the main reason his teams won 4 titles, although I consider AD to have been fairly co-equal in the last one.

You said the following:

The question is not so much whether Jordan taught the likes of Pippen and Grant but whether they would have been drafted in the first place and given the time to develop, or Pippen given the role into which he developed, in the circumstances LeBron was in once he decided to go win now in 2010. I don’t disagree that LeBron never had the opportunity to choose Jordan’s path, but construction of his teams since then has involved win now players including trading a number 1 draft pick for same.

I believe he is saying you can’t have it both ways with which I agree. You contend Jordan was advantaged by the Bulls having a number 5 draft pick in Pippen who they could put next to Jordan, but LeBron pushed to trade a number 1 pick and could obviously have had the Cavs draft any other player in the draft that year. You also contend/complain that the player resulting from the trade in Love wasn’t as good next to LeBron as Grant was next to Jordan. You pay your money and you take your choice.

I'm arguing that comparing 24ish MJ to a 30 year old Lebron is a false equivalency and that Jordan was in win now mode as soon as he got into the league, and was as interested in letting Pippen and Grant develop or building through the draft as Lebron was in Cleveland when they traded the first pick for Lebron. That's why I provided those examples.

Rather than being happy that most reasonable posters disagree with Stockton, you have entered into a nonsensical tangential debate which seems to involve Lebron being the only player ever worthy of being credited with titles and that everyone else including Jordan and Lebron's own contemporary Steph Curry only won because of team-mates and organisations.

Just for context, I'm only bring up Jordan because he is the undisputed goat, and highlighting that he wasn't pulling himself up by his bootstraps. He was asking for immediate help. So Stockton is indugling in revisionist history. Idk how you interpreted my arguments as "Lebron is the only palyer ever worhty of being credited with titles and eberyone else won because of teammates." Clearly I'm saying, EVERYONE who won championships won because they had help (sans Hakeem), including Lebron.

Sure neither player would have won on their own, but the organisations and team-mates concerned also won because of Jordan and Curry, and perhaps those players may have actually played a more team oriented game, Curry like my other favourite player in Tim Duncan by natural inclination, Jordan perhaps dragged there kicking and screaming by Jackson and Krause. Despite being one of the biggest egomaniacs in human history Jordan actually admitted he needed to play a team game to win.

Jordan took more shots and has a greater USG than Lebron despite getting help much earlier on. He got a HOF that implemented a system. Lebron never had this and when he joined MIA. I also recall their being a narrative when James joined the Heat in year one that Lebron deffered to much to wade and by year two Wade had to let Lebron know that the Heat were now his team.

He also in the final analysis didn't insist on any of the bad team moves your comrade on arms listed which might have been his preference. He can be blamed for being the bad judge of talent he clearly was in a position of influence with Washington, but blaming him for not exercising the bad judgement he may have had when he was player is a new wrinkle.

Again Michael, this is my point. He was on an organization that made the right moves. Jordan pressured Krause and owner ship to make poor signing and trade draft picks, not encourage them to build through the draft and let young players develop. And Jordan trading a young Rip Hamilton for an older Jerry Stackhouse is another example of Jordan not being interested in allowing young players develop for win now moves.

And again, he can retire at the age of 35 after a long and very successful career for whatever reason he chooses, regardless of what Lebron partisans nearly 30 years later might promote as a fictional deficiency to exalt their guy. This was a later rather than earlier retirement age for most at the time, an era when sports science was in its infancy. That slacker Bill Russell also retired at the age of 35 after only 11 titles, the last 2 as coach. He doubtless should also have continued to prove he had true grit like LeBron. If Jordan retired because he didn't think he could win another title and was not interested in generating statistics for their own sake, as had pretty much been his career long attitude, good for him and for making the correct judgement in this regard, the list of players who have won titles as the lead player after the age of 35 is not a long one, it is in fact non existent and certainly doesn't and won't contain Lebron either.

We know exactly why Jordan retired and it is because the Bulls were going to retool. He said this himself. If all the players who won the last title were signed to one year contract and Jackson was still coach he would have played another year. And this arguement isn't aimed at you as you feel there is nothing wrong with Lebron's moves to Cleveland/Lakers. But to those who say Lebron continued to stack the deck and didn't want to compete (like Stockton) when Jordan was faced with the same option, he quit.

If I wished to engage in the same diminishment of Lebron which you attempt with Jordan, I could point out that Jordan's last title involved him still being clearly the best player on his team and also involved him playing a whole season. I count the bubble title the same as any other title myself, it was the same for every other player and team that season, but you are the one throwing the stones/attempting to make invalid distinctions to support your own agenda.

I'm not diminishing Jordan's career or accomplishments. I'm using him as a proxy to debate the idea that players back in the day weren't interested in "stacking the deck" and asking for help - the perfect player to use as he is the undisputed GOAT on this forum.

We could pick from the top 25 players of all time and they either asked for help or already had it.

You launched into the Jordan stuff as is the wont of those of your ilk. I responded. At all times I have said LeBron had no option to win championships at the Cavs due to the quality of the organisation the first time around, and was justified in leaving.

And again, you try to make a negative out of Jordan retiring at the age of 35 in 1998, elderly at that time, after a feat unprecedented since the Bill Russell Celtics in the infancy of the sport of leading a second threepeat as the universally acclaimed best player in the NBA with no caveats and as the consensus GOAT. He didn't need to keep playing to pass Kareem's points record to have some further claim on greatness, no one at the time, rightly or wrongly, thought Kareem was better than him. As I said Bill Russell retired at age 35 himself, was this because a crystal ball told him Lebron would put him in the shade 41 years later by continuing after that age ?. Was Bill a coward for not trying for a 12th title ?. Utter nonsense. Jordan like Bill could retire any time he felt like it after all he had achieved, and if being pissed off at the Bulls owner whom he had made so much wealthier was among Jordan's reasons so what ?, perhaps he was early into the player empowerment thing. Again, list players who have won titles as the lead player after the age of 35, the answer as I said is zero including LeBron. And when I said contend I didn't mean get absolutely smashed whether or not by the eventual title winner before the finals, there was never any chance of those Lakers teams winning the title, many contend partly because old Lebron can't play out a whole regular season then through a whole play-off series. Even if Jordan retired because he didn't think he could continue to be the best player in the world and win titles if he kept going after the second threepeat, again so what ?, there comes a time for everyone. Lebron has generated some nice numbers since 2020 but no one is under any illusion he has been the best player in the NBA over that period.

And you make the same internally contradictory point as your fellow traveller, how is Jerry Krause making better decisions than Jordan would have made proof that Krause wasn't allowed to build the Bulls teams by Jordan ?. What does it matter if he accepted Krause's decisions grudgingly ?. Steph Curry by wide repute didn't want GSW to fire Mark Jackson either, but go on with things with a new coach with some success. Does this mean he and his teams didn't really win the 4 titles, which most GSW fans doubt would have occurred had GSW continued with Mark Jackson.

You’re arguing against a bunch of arguments I’m not making.

[fuller4379]

Says the guy with 0 titles.

[LakerLegend]

wow. so much here that I disagree with.

You went on about the not so good parts about what Jordan had to say about Grant back then, that may all be so, but when it came down to it. like you said. They got pass all of that enough to be able to remain civil as a part of the core and it took nothing away from the success the team on to accomplished with Mike at the helm leading. Mike didn't need to be those guys buddy. His job was to make sure they were bringing it, and he did that. He had some doubts. If you ask me its understandable considering who he was playing with from 1984-87. He was dealing with a lot of drunks/drug users, etc so yeah. it took a long time for him to shake all that off and be able to trust some teammates in the NBA. Coach Doug Collins help for the 2 years that he coaches their walked MJs progress in the right direction so that Phil Jacksons approach later on could run it even further ahead to reach those championships. Once all that came into I'm sure there was never any doubt again from Mike about Horaces contributions.

Now on to the second part. You said Lebron had nothing in Cleveland. I disagree. Larry Hughes was a rising star caliber player that showed potential next to Allen Iverson in Philly, and did well with Arenas and Jamison as a core in both Golden State and later on when the 3 of them reunited together on the Washington Wizards. Im from DC so I witnessed it and thought they were a fun team. The Cavs didn't put a super team around Lebron back then, but he had pieces. Mo Williams was already a good point guard with the Bucks, Delonte West was a good 2 way guard, Big Z was good the moment he came in in 1996. I can go on and on. They had guys even after Boozer left for Utah. The real problem with Lebron is the way the team was being ran having everything go thorugh what Lebron wants to do with the ball. They had no strong willed coach ever with a actual system the way the Spurs had Pops, Bulls had the Triangle coached by Phil and Tex, etc. People say this and that team is so stacked but reality is the reason those teams were so great wasn't because they had this and that top level player, but because the system that they played in brought the best out of them. Thats how Parker and Ginobli went from 2nd round or late first round picks in their draft to developing into star players along side Tim Duncan.

Nobody could develop next to Lebron so he jumped around and basically rented stars time to try to win rings off of next to them, then when it didnt pan off after a while anymore, he jumped else where. You said Kyrie and Love wasn't a big 3? I disagree. Kyrie was a rising star with a ton of potential. Already in commercials. Kevin Love may not have been able to lead the Wolves far but individually he was still one of the top players in the NBA. With one of the best outside shots by a big. So it was a very big deal for Cleveland to get him over there with Kyrie and Lebron.

I never said Love, Lebron and Irving wasn’t a big three. Just highlighting that leaving two players who were capable of dragging teams to the playoffs as the best player to join to players who could not isn’t stacking the deck.

Nor is leaving a “better run” organization for a worse run organization to join those players “stacking the deck”

None of what LeBron has done is stacking the deck.

You can’t possible believe this. Stacking the deck was the whole point in Miami.

[Iwasawitness]

I never said Love, Lebron and Irving wasn’t a big three. Just highlighting that leaving two players who were capable of dragging teams to the playoffs as the best player to join to players who could not isn’t stacking the deck.

Nor is leaving a “better run” organization for a worse run organization to join those players “stacking the deck”

None of what LeBron has done is stacking the deck.

You can’t possible believe this. Stacking the deck was the whole point in Miami.

No, it wasn't.

Thanks for proving my point.

[LakerLegend]

None of what LeBron has done is stacking the deck.

You can’t possible believe this. Stacking the deck was the whole point in Miami.

No, it wasn't.

Thanks for proving my point.

Nothing has been proven other than your not willing to let any criticism of LeBron go without trying to refute it without anything to back you up. Miami is literally stacking the deck. So is Cleveland return. So is LA.