2024-25 NBA Season Discussion

[Doctor MJ]

Always wondered how Manu would do in a Harden-like situation in today’s game. It probably wasn’t in his DNA but I’d like to think that he was capable of some kind of analogue to it. More passing and movement and less scoring maybe?

Main thing not in his DNA would be slacking when he doesn't have the ball in his hands.

[f4p]

Harden at 19 in ben modern peaks list is maybe too low

Since I’m guessing he’ll have Steph #2 (if he can keep himself from picking him #1), I’d love an honest to goodness explanation of the 2018 and 2019 rockets warriors series. Steph had another mvp in his prime and a DPOY and massive impact guy (who apparently makes any team a title favorite) and klay and RAPM standout iggy (half of 2018, all of 2019), and harden had the last prime season of massive impact cp3 and what…Clint capela and the two series were dead even. Like +2 for the warriors in non garbage time in 2018 games with cp3 and +1.7 in 2019 with cp3 a shell of himself. With a 6-5 record for the warriors.

These should be epic bloodbaths if harden is 19th. You simply can’t square the circle of the difference in rankings and the series results.

[f4p]

Always wondered how Manu would do in a Harden-like situation in today’s game. It probably wasn’t in his DNA but I’d like to think that he was capable of some kind of analogue to it. More passing and movement and less scoring maybe?

Main thing not in his DNA would be slacking when he doesn't have the ball in his hands.

Was manu nearly the highest minute, highest usage player in the nba for like a decade straight? Seems like with his boundless energy he could have at least put up the minutes, if not the usage.

[Doctor MJ]

Always wondered how Manu would do in a Harden-like situation in today’s game. It probably wasn’t in his DNA but I’d like to think that he was capable of some kind of analogue to it. More passing and movement and less scoring maybe?

Main thing not in his DNA would be slacking when he doesn't have the ball in his hands.

Was manu nearly the highest minute, highest usage player in the nba for like a decade straight? Seems like with his boundless energy he could have at least put up the minutes, if not the usage.

Well certainly, the question is not whether Manu did that, as he did not.

[Peregrine01]

Harden at 19 in ben modern peaks list is maybe too low

Since I’m guessing he’ll have Steph #2 (if he can keep himself from picking him #1), I’d love an honest to goodness explanation of the 2018 and 2019 rockets warriors series. Steph had another mvp in his prime and a DPOY and massive impact guy (who apparently makes any team a title favorite) and klay and RAPM standout iggy (half of 2018, all of 2019), and harden had the last prime season of massive impact cp3 and what…Clint capela and the two series were dead even. Like +2 for the warriors in non garbage time in 2018 games with cp3 and +1.7 in 2019 with cp3 a shell of himself. With a 6-5 record for the warriors.

These should be epic bloodbaths if harden is 19th. You simply can’t square the circle of the difference in rankings and the series results.

KD deserves blame for that 2018 series being as close as it was, IMO. Warriors ended up iso-balling and playing into the Rockets' hand and of course Rockets' defense mucking things up helped as well.

[Special_Puppy]

Harden at 19 in ben modern peaks list is maybe too low

Since I’m guessing he’ll have Steph #2 (if he can keep himself from picking him #1), I’d love an honest to goodness explanation of the 2018 and 2019 rockets warriors series. Steph had another mvp in his prime and a DPOY and massive impact guy (who apparently makes any team a title favorite) and klay and RAPM standout iggy (half of 2018, all of 2019), and harden had the last prime season of massive impact cp3 and what…Clint capela and the two series were dead even. Like +2 for the warriors in non garbage time in 2018 games with cp3 and +1.7 in 2019 with cp3 a shell of himself. With a 6-5 record for the warriors.

These should be epic bloodbaths if harden is 19th. You simply can’t square the circle of the difference in rankings and the series results.

I assume he'll put Shaq number 2

[falcolombardi]

Harden at 19 in ben modern peaks list is maybe too low

Since I’m guessing he’ll have Steph #2 (if he can keep himself from picking him #1), I’d love an honest to goodness explanation of the 2018 and 2019 rockets warriors series. Steph had another mvp in his prime and a DPOY and massive impact guy (who apparently makes any team a title favorite) and klay and RAPM standout iggy (half of 2018, all of 2019), and harden had the last prime season of massive impact cp3 and what…Clint capela and the two series were dead even. Like +2 for the warriors in non garbage time in 2018 games with cp3 and +1.7 in 2019 with cp3 a shell of himself. With a 6-5 record for the warriors.

These should be epic bloodbaths if harden is 19th. You simply can’t square the circle of the difference in rankings and the series results.

I assume he'll put Shaq number 2

I actually think he will put jokic 3rd and shaq 4th while comparing their offensive impact

Duncan 6th and garnett 5th while mainly talking about all of garnett advantages

And put curry 2nd and lebron 1st but spend a lot of time talking about all the advantages in portability and ceiling raising he gives curry over lebron

[eminence]

As of a handful of years ago ('21 I think?) Bens post-merger peaks top 10 was this:

1. MJ
2. Bron*
3. Shaq*
4. Hakeem
5. Bird
6. Kareem
7. Curry*
8. KG*
9. Duncan*
10. Magic

*21st century

[parsnips33]

Since I’m guessing he’ll have Steph #2 (if he can keep himself from picking him #1), I’d love an honest to goodness explanation of the 2018 and 2019 rockets warriors series. Steph had another mvp in his prime and a DPOY and massive impact guy (who apparently makes any team a title favorite) and klay and RAPM standout iggy (half of 2018, all of 2019), and harden had the last prime season of massive impact cp3 and what…Clint capela and the two series were dead even. Like +2 for the warriors in non garbage time in 2018 games with cp3 and +1.7 in 2019 with cp3 a shell of himself. With a 6-5 record for the warriors.

These should be epic bloodbaths if harden is 19th. You simply can’t square the circle of the difference in rankings and the series results.

I assume he'll put Shaq number 2

I actually think he will put jokic 3rd and shaq 4th while comparing their offensive impact

Duncan 6th and garnett 5th while mainly talking about all of garnett advantages

And put curry 2nd and lebron 1st but spend a lot of time talking about all the advantages in portability and ceiling raising he gives curry over lebron

And LeBron fans will find a way to feel extremely disrespected by him being ranked #1

[parsnips33]

Harden at 19 in ben modern peaks list is maybe too low

Since I’m guessing he’ll have Steph #2 (if he can keep himself from picking him #1), I’d love an honest to goodness explanation of the 2018 and 2019 rockets warriors series. Steph had another mvp in his prime and a DPOY and massive impact guy (who apparently makes any team a title favorite) and klay and RAPM standout iggy (half of 2018, all of 2019), and harden had the last prime season of massive impact cp3 and what…Clint capela and the two series were dead even. Like +2 for the warriors in non garbage time in 2018 games with cp3 and +1.7 in 2019 with cp3 a shell of himself. With a 6-5 record for the warriors.

These should be epic bloodbaths if harden is 19th. You simply can’t square the circle of the difference in rankings and the series results.

KD deserves blame for that 2018 series being as close as it was, IMO. Warriors ended up iso-balling and playing into the Rockets' hand and of course Rockets' defense mucking things up helped as well.

Houston defense was elite, especially against KD.

[falcolombardi]

I assume he'll put Shaq number 2

I actually think he will put jokic 3rd and shaq 4th while comparing their offensive impact

Duncan 6th and garnett 5th while mainly talking about all of garnett advantages

And put curry 2nd and lebron 1st but spend a lot of time talking about all the advantages in portability and ceiling raising he gives curry over lebron

And LeBron fans will find a way to feel extremely disrespected by him being ranked #1

If the arguments for the criticisms are weak then you can fairly criticize it despite agreeing with the placing tho

You can disagree with a placing while respecting the argumrnt or agree with the ranking given and dislike the argumentation

[parsnips33]

I actually think he will put jokic 3rd and shaq 4th while comparing their offensive impact

Duncan 6th and garnett 5th while mainly talking about all of garnett advantages

And put curry 2nd and lebron 1st but spend a lot of time talking about all the advantages in portability and ceiling raising he gives curry over lebron

And LeBron fans will find a way to feel extremely disrespected by him being ranked #1

If the arguments for the criticisms are weak then you can fairly criticize it despite agreeing with the placing tho

You can disagree with a placing while respecting the argumrnt or agree with the ranking given and dislike the argumentation

Well yes to an extent. Just think it's funny how some's approach is "How dare you say he's merely the best ever??? You're supposed to say he's absolutely perfect!!!!"

Not saying that's you

[f4p]

Harden at 19 in ben modern peaks list is maybe too low

Since I’m guessing he’ll have Steph #2 (if he can keep himself from picking him #1), I’d love an honest to goodness explanation of the 2018 and 2019 rockets warriors series. Steph had another mvp in his prime and a DPOY and massive impact guy (who apparently makes any team a title favorite) and klay and RAPM standout iggy (half of 2018, all of 2019), and harden had the last prime season of massive impact cp3 and what…Clint capela and the two series were dead even. Like +2 for the warriors in non garbage time in 2018 games with cp3 and +1.7 in 2019 with cp3 a shell of himself. With a 6-5 record for the warriors.

These should be epic bloodbaths if harden is 19th. You simply can’t square the circle of the difference in rankings and the series results.

KD deserves blame for that 2018 series being as close as it was, IMO. Warriors ended up iso-balling and playing into the Rockets' hand and of course Rockets' defense mucking things up helped as well.

My teammate was scoring 31 ppg on 60 TS% doesn’t seem like a good excuse for Steph through the first 5 games when Steph was at 24 ppg on 56 TS%, a decline of 11.5% from the regular season. The fact Chris Paul so consistently shut down Steph in the playoffs and Steph got better right when Paul got hurt makes the “peaked way above “ harden argument tough.

Also, 2019 is arguably crazier. Chris Paul looking completely washed, the rockets with no bench and Kd averaging 35 ppg and it was somehow 6 super close games with harden massively outplaying Steph for the series. Either hardens peak is really really high or Steph needs to be ranked lower because he was getting massively outplayed by the 19th peak when Steph was basically at his own peak.

[f4p]

I actually think he will put jokic 3rd and shaq 4th while comparing their offensive impact

Duncan 6th and garnett 5th while mainly talking about all of garnett advantages

And put curry 2nd and lebron 1st but spend a lot of time talking about all the advantages in portability and ceiling raising he gives curry over lebron

And LeBron fans will find a way to feel extremely disrespected by him being ranked #1

If the arguments for the criticisms are weak then you can fairly criticize it despite agreeing with the placing tho

You can disagree with a placing while respecting the argumrnt or agree with the ranking given and dislike the argumentation

Yeah Steph basically played for one coach in one system with 2 main teammates while lebron played in tons of situations and dominated them all. It’s like Steph’s theoretical portability somehow is better than lebrons actual real world portability, where he might be the most versatile player ever.

[parsnips33]

And LeBron fans will find a way to feel extremely disrespected by him being ranked #1

If the arguments for the criticisms are weak then you can fairly criticize it despite agreeing with the placing tho

You can disagree with a placing while respecting the argumrnt or agree with the ranking given and dislike the argumentation

Yeah Steph basically played for one coach in one system with 2 main teammates while lebron played in tons of situations and dominated them all. It’s like Steph’s theoretical portability somehow is better than lebrons actual real world portability, where he might be the most versatile player ever.

I think it's more about skillset than how many teams you signed with, how many coaches you played for etc

Of course, you'd be hard pressed to find a situation LeBron wouldn't dominate in. That's why he's the greatest

[parsnips33]

Since I’m guessing he’ll have Steph #2 (if he can keep himself from picking him #1), I’d love an honest to goodness explanation of the 2018 and 2019 rockets warriors series. Steph had another mvp in his prime and a DPOY and massive impact guy (who apparently makes any team a title favorite) and klay and RAPM standout iggy (half of 2018, all of 2019), and harden had the last prime season of massive impact cp3 and what…Clint capela and the two series were dead even. Like +2 for the warriors in non garbage time in 2018 games with cp3 and +1.7 in 2019 with cp3 a shell of himself. With a 6-5 record for the warriors.

These should be epic bloodbaths if harden is 19th. You simply can’t square the circle of the difference in rankings and the series results.

KD deserves blame for that 2018 series being as close as it was, IMO. Warriors ended up iso-balling and playing into the Rockets' hand and of course Rockets' defense mucking things up helped as well.

My teammate was scoring 31 ppg on 60 TS% doesn’t seem like a good excuse for Steph through the first 5 games when Steph was at 24 ppg on 56 TS%, a decline of 11.5% from the regular season. The fact Chris Paul so consistently shut down Steph in the playoffs and Steph got better right when Paul got hurt makes the “peaked way above “ harden argument tough.

Also, 2019 is arguably crazier. Chris Paul looking completely washed, the rockets with no bench and Kd averaging 35 ppg and it was somehow 6 super close games with harden massively outplaying Steph for the series. Either hardens peak is really really high or Steph needs to be ranked lower because he was getting massively outplayed by the 19th peak when Steph was basically at his own peak.

2019 was the one. I imagine their rankings would be much closer if the Rockets took advantage of the KD injury the way GSW took advantage of the CP3 injury the year before. But again, I actually think Warriors non-KD offense was harder for that defense to guard than the version with KD, as counter intuitive as that seems

[Peregrine01]

Since I’m guessing he’ll have Steph #2 (if he can keep himself from picking him #1), I’d love an honest to goodness explanation of the 2018 and 2019 rockets warriors series. Steph had another mvp in his prime and a DPOY and massive impact guy (who apparently makes any team a title favorite) and klay and RAPM standout iggy (half of 2018, all of 2019), and harden had the last prime season of massive impact cp3 and what…Clint capela and the two series were dead even. Like +2 for the warriors in non garbage time in 2018 games with cp3 and +1.7 in 2019 with cp3 a shell of himself. With a 6-5 record for the warriors.

These should be epic bloodbaths if harden is 19th. You simply can’t square the circle of the difference in rankings and the series results.

KD deserves blame for that 2018 series being as close as it was, IMO. Warriors ended up iso-balling and playing into the Rockets' hand and of course Rockets' defense mucking things up helped as well.

My teammate was scoring 31 ppg on 60 TS% doesn’t seem like a good excuse for Steph through the first 5 games when Steph was at 24 ppg on 56 TS%, a decline of 11.5% from the regular season. The fact Chris Paul so consistently shut down Steph in the playoffs and Steph got better right when Paul got hurt makes the “peaked way above “ harden argument tough.

Also, 2019 is arguably crazier. Chris Paul looking completely washed, the rockets with no bench and Kd averaging 35 ppg and it was somehow 6 super close games with harden massively outplaying Steph for the series. Either hardens peak is really really high or Steph needs to be ranked lower because he was getting massively outplayed by the 19th peak when Steph was basically at his own peak.

History has not been kind to KD-led offenses, no matter how efficiently it looks like he scored.

Not going to lay the blame of all of Curry's struggles in the first few games at KD's feet as Curry is very much a flow and "whole is better than the sum of its parts" player which has its plusses and minuses. But KD was and is not a cerebral player and couldn't see how his ball-stopping tendencies were playing into the Rockets' hands and taking away from what made the Warriors great. This was really the core of the friction between KD and the Warriors (which Draymond was really a figurehead of).

In 2019, the series really turned after KD got hurt and the Warriors went back to Warriors ball.

Anyway, not really debating about where Harden should stand on a list like this just providing some context on why the Warriors struggled so much against the Rockets despite the talent difference on paper.

[IlikeSHAIguys]

It's not really fair but Harden gets rated alot lower than he should be because wow he didn't even make the finals lol.

[Texas Chuck]

Always wondered how Manu would do in a Harden-like situation in today’s game. It probably wasn’t in his DNA but I’d like to think that he was capable of some kind of analogue to it. More passing and movement and less scoring maybe?

Main thing not in his DNA would be slacking when he doesn't have the ball in his hands.

Was manu nearly the highest minute, highest usage player in the nba for like a decade straight? Seems like with his boundless energy he could have at least put up the minutes, if not the usage.

I do agree that Harden's durability and workload gets badly underrated/undervalued here. As a regular season innings eater who ran high level offenses year after year, he's a machine. His repeated inability to come through when defenses fully game-planned against him in the playoffs though probably doesn't get talked about enough.

Shame those boys couldn't make it work in Brooklyn. Harden carries the RS for KD/Kyrie and then let them shine come playoff time.

But not sure we have another player with a bigger gap between RS and playoffs as Harden. One can put him in any discussion for GOAT RS offensive player. But when defenses are geared up for that, there was no counter from him.

[Texas Chuck]

Duncan 6th and garnett 5th while mainly talking about all of garnett advantages

This was his and drza's podcast on the two. Would make passing comments about how close they were but then in every area he just kept giving every edge to KG. I had high hopes for that(knowing going in both guys would side with KG) but it was just a KG lovefest while nitpicking Timmy. None of us can avoid just loving who we love.