Is SGA already Top 5 PG of All Time?

[homecourtloss]

He is generally the main guy bringing the ball up and our first and main passer and playmaker

Who was the PG on the Chicago title teams?

It sure wasn't really Kerr or Paxson, you know what I mean? Scottie and Michael did the primary ball handling.

EDIT: My point is that some teams don't have a conventional PG. OKC looks more like those Bulls squads than Shai does like a traditional PG.

SGA represents well the combo guard who brings the ball up the court but might not be involved in all the playmaking actions. The player who leads in dribbles per touch is almost always the one who is bringing the ball up the court, especially when there’s a sizable gap between the one who leads here and the second place one.

OKC regular season and post season.




Here’s Cp3 from 2015



Here’s Trae Young and the Hawks



Brunson and the Knicks



Luka and Kyrie for the Mavs



Lillard and the Bucks

[f4p]

Career value is tougher, but ultimately, as a franchise, if I got 3 years of what SGA accomplished or 9 years of what Payton did, I'd take SGA's last 3 seasons, personally.

I don't think looking at it in terms of just rings makes sense here. He led Okc to a game 7 win over like a 45 win Indy team where their star player got hurt in the 1st quarter. Seattle took the 72 win Bulls to 6 games where if Payton was healthier they might even have won. I try to apply as much context as possible when I compare players. I would be curious how corp would look for both with fair grades.

It’s gonna be funny watching people on this board tell me 2025 shai is way better than peak harden when his statistical drop off in the playoffs is the same or really slightly worse than 2018 to 2020 harden, his playoff plus minus the last 2 years is basically 0, he lost as a +5 favorite last year (almost no top 20 guy has ever done that ) and needed 7 games to beat the nuggets and might have lost to the pacers ( +9 and + 11 underdogs) while 2018 and 2019 harden crushed every non-Durant warriors teams he faced in 2018 and 2019 and had like a +13 on off those 3 years.


Edit: to be clear, I’m not saying it’s impossible to take shai, but “rings, erneh” is gonna have a lot of people altering reality.

[70sFan]

Career value is tougher, but ultimately, as a franchise, if I got 3 years of what SGA accomplished or 9 years of what Payton did, I'd take SGA's last 3 seasons, personally.

I don't think looking at it in terms of just rings makes sense here. He led Okc to a game 7 win over like a 45 win Indy team where their star player got hurt in the 1st quarter. Seattle took the 72 win Bulls to 6 games where if Payton was healthier they might even have won. I try to apply as much context as possible when I compare players. I would be curious how corp would look for both with fair grades.

It’s gonna be funny watching people on this board tell me 2025 shai is way better than peak harden when his statistical drop off in the playoffs is the same or really slightly worse than 2018 to 2020 harden, his playoff plus minus the last 2 years is basically 0, he lost as a +5 favorite last year (almost no top 20 guy has ever done that ) and needed 7 games to beat the nuggets and might have lost to the pacers ( +9 and + 11 underdogs) while 2018 and 2019 harden crushed every non-Durant warriors teams he faced in 2018 and 2019 and had like a +13 on off those 3 years.


Edit: to be clear, I’m not saying it’s impossible to take shai, but “rings, erneh” is gonna have a lot of people altering reality.

That's why we need you in our peaks project, the guards discussion should be heated

[jjgp111292]

Career value is tougher, but ultimately, as a franchise, if I got 3 years of what SGA accomplished or 9 years of what Payton did, I'd take SGA's last 3 seasons, personally.

I don't think looking at it in terms of just rings makes sense here. He led Okc to a game 7 win over like a 45 win Indy team where their star player got hurt in the 1st quarter. Seattle took the 72 win Bulls to 6 games where if Payton was healthier they might even have won. I try to apply as much context as possible when I compare players. I would be curious how corp would look for both with fair grades.

It’s gonna be funny watching people on this board tell me 2025 shai is way better than peak harden when his statistical drop off in the playoffs is the same or really slightly worse than 2018 to 2020 harden, his playoff plus minus the last 2 years is basically 0, he lost as a +5 favorite last year (almost no top 20 guy has ever done that ) and needed 7 games to beat the nuggets and might have lost to the pacers ( +9 and + 11 underdogs) while 2018 and 2019 harden crushed every non-Durant warriors teams he faced in 2018 and 2019 and had like a +13 on off those 3 years.


Edit: to be clear, I’m not saying it’s impossible to take shai, but “rings, erneh” is gonna have a lot of people altering reality.

My equal hate for both of their playstyles makes this a perfectly palatable post for me.

[tsherkin]

SGA represents well the combo guard who brings the ball up the court but might not be involved in all the playmaking actions. The player who leads in dribbles per touch is almost always the one who is bringing the ball up the court, especially when there’s a sizable gap between the one who leads here and the second place one.

Nice visualization

So if the starting backcourt with the 14th and 34th assist per game leaders contains 2 shooting guards, how many starting backcourt contain 2 point guards?

I wonder. I don't think there are that many, though, because if you have a real point guard, it tends to show through. But it comes down to "what is a PG?" You don't see quite as many classical small-guard table setters who don't score much. You see a lot of shorter scoring guards who are decent passers but nothing epic, though. It's a whole different mentality to be a real PG.

I guess it becomes somewhat semantic. Where does the line end between a real PG and something else? At what point does the archetype shift? Is it deeply ingrained into the specifics of each given player? Or is it as simple as "the primary ball-handler and volume playmaker on the team, regardless of height or threshold of ability/vision?" Somewhere in the middle?

Eventually, at least in a place like this, that discussion should probably happen. The older labels are convenient for simple listings, but they are very muddy.

[Elpolo_14]

In term of Peak definitely. This year was impressive in term of Impact on a historical team

In term of Career Value he might need some more year on his resume

[IlikeSHAIguys]

totally yes.

[Ol Roy]

Can we just create a separate "combo guard" position for SGA, Curry, West, etc.?

[Amare_1_Knicks]

I hate, hate, hate calling Shai a point guard. He’s a shooting guard who’s also a lead guard in my eyes. At 6’6 with his style of play.. it’s more reminiscent of two guards before him rather than any points.