More trade value - Camara or Barnes?

[Billl]

This is such a realgm thread. In the actual NBA, if barnes came on the market, he would fetch a pretty nice haul. Obviously, he needs a team where he "fits" vs camara being plug and play, but in terms of prospects, barnes is on a different level.

[Mavrelous]

23/24 Barnes was a 20%+ of the cap player, maxing him was fine, though we saw from the Rockets a new standard of demanding some concessions on extension, maybe he could have been haggled with, but I don't see it as a big deal.
Last year Raptors tanked, I really don't know how to value him, but the auto maxing does look worse.
Barnes closest comp is GSW Wiggins IMO, Barnes is bigger and better all around skills, Wiggins is a better shooter and better athlete, signed for the fun max, on a promise he fullfilled part of.
Camara is a DFS type player, assuming he gets somewhere from MLE to 25M, do you prefer Wiggins on a fun max Vs DFS on that deal, I think I'd prefer Wiggins, I know I did when Wiggins was thought of available in 2021 and offered a deal for him using DFS, he then proceeded to be the difference maker in the WCF

[jayjaysee]

This season, I think Barnes holds a lot more value. Think teams would be willing to pay more to see if they can improve on two years ago Barnes. Trusting last season was more due to situation than Barnes.

If Barnes repeats last season, I’d say it’s pretty close in a year and a half when Camara can be traded after extending. If Portland does not extend him, it’ll still be Barnes..

[gswhoops]

Barnes pretty easily. Which isn't a knock on Camara at all.

[gswhoops]

Which Green is this?

Draymond

Draymond has never been a 2nd option on offense. He isn't really a 3rd option on offense either, rather he's a connective tissue player.

Draymond has been the 2nd or 3rd best player on multiple title teams of course, but that's due primarily to being a historical defender. Barnes has not shown anything close to that. Draymond also is one of the most cerebral players to ever play, and has legit point guard passing from when he used to play that position in school.

This is the reason prospects should not be compared to one of one outliers like Draymond, Barkley, Magic, etc. If a one of one outlier is your comp, then you're going to fail.

I agree with your overall point, but Draymond was our third option in 2015 and 2016. Third on the team in PPG and FGA both seasons (granted, there was a pretty big drop off from Steph/Klay to the rest of the roster).

[BlazersBroncos]

Its Barnes but that may change sooner than later if he doesnt make some improvements (EFG is barely at 50%, near 3 TO per last 2 years, usage near 30% is too high, hasnt crossed .100 WS48 since rookie season, etc.). You still take the guy that is huge and can facilitate IMO - but a time may come where a elite 3/D guy like Camara on a 24-28M contract has more value than a high usage, low efficiency guy on a 20-25% of the cap deal.

[gswhoops]

Its Barnes but that may change sooner than later if he doesnt make some improvements (EFG is barely at 50%, near 3 TO per last 2 years, usage near 30% is too high, hasnt crossed .100 WS48 since rookie season, etc.). You still take the guy that is huge and can facilitate IMO - but a time may come where a elite 3/D guy like Camara on a 24-28M contract has more value than a high usage, low efficiency guy on a 20-25% of the cap deal.

Yeah I think this is fair. If the Blazers can re-up Camara at a reasonable number and Barnes continues to flounder/be miscast as a low efficiency first option type, this could definitely flip.

[Godaddycurse]

Its Barnes but that may change sooner than later if he doesnt make some improvements (EFG is barely at 50%, near 3 TO per last 2 years, usage near 30% is too high, hasnt crossed .100 WS48 since rookie season, etc.). You still take the guy that is huge and can facilitate IMO - but a time may come where a elite 3/D guy like Camara on a 24-28M contract has more value than a high usage, low efficiency guy on a 20-25% of the cap deal.

Too soon to label Camara elite or even good at 3 pt shooting. His D is great, but look what happened to herb jones and suggs.

Agree Barnes need to prove his worth on the court this year though. Hopefully both players will improve on their value from last year

[BlazersBroncos]

Its Barnes but that may change sooner than later if he doesnt make some improvements (EFG is barely at 50%, near 3 TO per last 2 years, usage near 30% is too high, hasnt crossed .100 WS48 since rookie season, etc.). You still take the guy that is huge and can facilitate IMO - but a time may come where a elite 3/D guy like Camara on a 24-28M contract has more value than a high usage, low efficiency guy on a 20-25% of the cap deal.

Too soon to label Camara elite or even good at 3 pt shooting. His D is great, but look what happened to herb jones and suggs.

Agree Barnes need to prove his worth on the court this year though. Hopefully both players will improve on their value from last year

Ya - this is certainly a reasonable argument. Worth noting that he seems to be perpetually on a positive curve w/ 3PT shooting -

College - 17% / 26% / 34% / 36%
NBA - 33% / 37%

So I am optimistic that he is building a sustainable 3PT shot. His FT% does open the door to an argument he may regress ala Suggs / Herb -

College - 62% / 62% / 59% / 67%
NBA - 75% / 73%

Improvement from NCAA to NBA is clear, but he is certainly not flashing the tried and true point that FT% leads to a base for good 3PT%.

He is a 50% 3PTr guy - and his volume is excellent - so if he can manage to be a 40%+ 3PT shooter there is a chance he grows into one of the premier 3/D guys in the league (Defense, +3PT%, +3PT volume). I think he can eclipse a McDaniels caliber guy personally and IMO there is an outside chance he is a bit like prime Tay Prince. Lots to unfold though.

[Jojothewhale]

The question of more trade value to the league is a very different one than to each of us as individuals.

The league would value Barnes a hell of a lot more. I personally have no interest in paying him his contract even if it was reasonable based on what the league thought of him. Both matter. Both are relevant to the topic. High opinions set the market. I may also not particularly value Camara on his next deal. We're at a narrow slice of time where Camara as an asset is probably peaking.

[gswhoops]

The question of more trade value to the league is a very different one than to each of us as individuals.

The league would value Barnes a hell of a lot more. I personally have no interest in paying him his contract even if it was reasonable based on what the league thought of him. Both matter. Both are relevant to the topic. High opinions set the market. I may also not particularly value Camara on his next deal. We're at a narrow slice of time where Camara as an asset is probably peaking.

The way I approach the question is - if both teams shopped their guy, who would ultimately return the bigger/better pile of assets?

I think it's Barnes.

[Texas Chuck]

The question of more trade value to the league is a very different one than to each of us as individuals.

The league would value Barnes a hell of a lot more. I personally have no interest in paying him his contract even if it was reasonable based on what the league thought of him. Both matter. Both are relevant to the topic. High opinions set the market. I may also not particularly value Camara on his next deal. We're at a narrow slice of time where Camara as an asset is probably peaking.

The way I approach the question is - if both teams shopped their guy, who would ultimately return the bigger/better pile of assets?

I think it's Barnes.

Yep I answer the question like gswhoops.

And I value both players about like Jojo. Not sold I want Barnes on that deal. And Camara is the classic guy who outplays his bargain rookie deal, but could be upside down on his next deal. His value lies in his contract, but that's down to its last year unless you want to both roll the dice and tick him off making him wait a year.

It only takes one team to believe Barnes is the perfect compliment to their star(Atlanta?) and I think that team exists enough that the return would be meaningful. Teams are only going to make so much for Camara archetype and they aren't going to pay a premium for one cheap year.

[gswhoops]

The question of more trade value to the league is a very different one than to each of us as individuals.

The league would value Barnes a hell of a lot more. I personally have no interest in paying him his contract even if it was reasonable based on what the league thought of him. Both matter. Both are relevant to the topic. High opinions set the market. I may also not particularly value Camara on his next deal. We're at a narrow slice of time where Camara as an asset is probably peaking.

The way I approach the question is - if both teams shopped their guy, who would ultimately return the bigger/better pile of assets?

I think it's Barnes.

Yep I answer the question like gswhoops.

And I value both players about like Jojo. Not sold I want Barnes on that deal. And Camara is the classic guy who outplays his bargain rookie deal, but could be upside down on his next deal. His value lies in his contract, but that's down to its last year unless you want to both roll the dice and tick him off making him wait a year.

It only takes one team to believe Barnes is the perfect compliment to their star(Atlanta?) and I think that team exists enough that the return would be meaningful. Teams are only going to make so much for Camara archetype and they aren't going to pay a premium for one cheap year.

Yeah. Not specific to Camara, but it's easy to love a guy/overlook his flaws when he's making peanuts. It's a lot harder when he's making $20M+ per year and you're counting on him to be one of your top 3-4 guys night in and night out (in my head only this is called the "Jordan Poole Effect").

[kobe_vs_jordan]

Barnes easily the better basketball player but I’m his contract make it hard to gamble on if i have to send premium assets. Getting to the point he almost old enough where potential is reached.

Could see teams be willing two picks for either player.

[One_and_Done]

Its Barnes but that may change sooner than later if he doesnt make some improvements (EFG is barely at 50%, near 3 TO per last 2 years, usage near 30% is too high, hasnt crossed .100 WS48 since rookie season, etc.). You still take the guy that is huge and can facilitate IMO - but a time may come where a elite 3/D guy like Camara on a 24-28M contract has more value than a high usage, low efficiency guy on a 20-25% of the cap deal.

RE: 'take the guy that is huge', Camara is bigger than Barnes.

[BlazersBroncos]

Its Barnes but that may change sooner than later if he doesnt make some improvements (EFG is barely at 50%, near 3 TO per last 2 years, usage near 30% is too high, hasnt crossed .100 WS48 since rookie season, etc.). You still take the guy that is huge and can facilitate IMO - but a time may come where a elite 3/D guy like Camara on a 24-28M contract has more value than a high usage, low efficiency guy on a 20-25% of the cap deal.

RE: 'take the guy that is huge', Camara is bigger than Barnes.

I suppose I should have caveated that with 'is huge for a guy that can create / handle'. I will also admit I thought Barnes was more like 6'8 235lbs. The 6'7 listing was surprising to me.

[Godaddycurse]

Its Barnes but that may change sooner than later if he doesnt make some improvements (EFG is barely at 50%, near 3 TO per last 2 years, usage near 30% is too high, hasnt crossed .100 WS48 since rookie season, etc.). You still take the guy that is huge and can facilitate IMO - but a time may come where a elite 3/D guy like Camara on a 24-28M contract has more value than a high usage, low efficiency guy on a 20-25% of the cap deal.

RE: 'take the guy that is huge', Camara is bigger than Barnes.

Cool but barnes is huge and can facilitate

[One_and_Done]

Its Barnes but that may change sooner than later if he doesnt make some improvements (EFG is barely at 50%, near 3 TO per last 2 years, usage near 30% is too high, hasnt crossed .100 WS48 since rookie season, etc.). You still take the guy that is huge and can facilitate IMO - but a time may come where a elite 3/D guy like Camara on a 24-28M contract has more value than a high usage, low efficiency guy on a 20-25% of the cap deal.

RE: 'take the guy that is huge', Camara is bigger than Barnes.

Cool but barnes is huge and can facilitate

He facilitates/generates subpar offence. Not sure why that is desirable. I'd rather a point guard run the offense and a SF who fits. Barnes just hijacks your offence.

[Snakebites]

This is such a realgm thread. In the actual NBA, if barnes came on the market, he would fetch a pretty nice haul. Obviously, he needs a team where he "fits" vs camara being plug and play, but in terms of prospects, barnes is on a different level.

There is no debate about who is the better overall player.

But that's not the question.

I like Barnes but I do think his trade value can at least be questioned given that he got a maximum contract despite not putting up maximum numbers.

Is it possible that Camara could get overpaid soon too? Sure, but at minimum he's got two more years of relatively cheap team control, and has a skillset that can fit every team. He's a pretty valuable asset.

[MoneyTalks41890]

Embarrassing thread. You need to log off bro. Take a couple of weeks off and enjoy the rest of summer.

Even if it was true that the idea was so lopsided that it doesn’t merit discussion, we don’t talk to each other like this on the trade board. This doesn’t add anything to the discussion, it doesn’t stimulate conversation about basketball trades, it’s just rude.

But, it’s also not true. There’s debate in this thread from a range of good posters about the implications of the contracts and Barnes’ potential as a 2 or 3 option versus Camara’s floor as a 4th or 5th option.

In the future, let’s discuss the content of the post and refrain from insulting posters.