IlikeSHAIguys wrote:He's also like way better on defense? Idk why people just ignore that whenever they're saying MJ's close or better. I also don't really get the AD thing at all. The Lakers were like fine without him in 20 and were really really good in 21 with him not playing that much before Lebron got hurt. But for some reason now people are like wow AD was even better when like no he wasn't.
Like honest maybe Lebron is a little too old for this but 91 on 20 seems way more fair to me than 91 on like 2009 or whatever people push as close even though stats and impact say it's obviously not. Saying AD was better isn't really that different from saying Pippen is better and I don't really think people are being real when they start name dropping Harden and AD lol.
It was AD who anchored that 2020 team and besides, they were stacked to the brim with other good defenders like Howard, KCP, Caruso, Green, Rondo, Kuzma, McGee... The reason the Lebron lineups without AD did pretty well on D is that Dwight Howard would come in to replace AD.
AD in 2020 was way better on defense than Lebron was. I mean that isn't even debatable. It's as obvious as the sky being blue. Lebron's impact metrics on D look much better in 2020 and 2021 than in any surrounding years because the roster was so stacked defensively. Literally just about any player who's on the court with Lebron was a good defender. But Lebron himself had moments of strong defense but was cruising most of the time. Low motor generally through and in the Finals got badly exposed when guarding Jimmy.
Revisionist history to say AD was better than LeBron in 2020 imo. LeBron was clearly that team’s MVP and outplayed AD through the playoffs.
As for the thread, as someone that does have peak LeBron over peak MJ, I think this is clearly 91 Jordan. Despite what I said about LeBron being better than AD that year, AD was still a tremendous #2 and took a ton of pressure off him. He was much better than Pippen for Jordan. That’s probably why LeBron’s defense looked so much better than it did compared to the years immediately preceding it. I’d still take LeBron over Jordan defensively, but not by a lot, and I also think Jordan was just a much more capable player offensively at that point.
lessthanjake wrote: No, it doesn’t. Not in the vast world outside of OhayoKD’s discord. It’s a great season, but it is not the GOAT guard season.
Do you think I get my takes from the discord? No. Lebron is in contention for GOAT guard season....
Lebron in 2020 playmaking is all-time high only behind Nash and Magic with his all-time manipulating, defensive collapsing along with the GOAT vision. Top 5-10 guard defender ever with elite switching, roll, off-side, interior cleaner, physical defender, and GOAT roaming guard at defence. Coasting in the RS scoring, but elite playoffs scoring.
Just a small view of why I think 2020 Bron, is not cleared by 1991 Jordan, worse, but still top 2 season by guards ever.
You think 35 year old Lebron is one of the 5 best guard defenders of all time?
Didn't say he is top 5 guard defender ever because I don't think he is over Kidd, Moncrief, Allen, Caruso, Holiday or Payton. But somewhere with Walt, DJ, Smart, Mau Cheek, Michael Cooper. So like somewhere from 7-11. I can see the argument for him being top 5 though.
therealbig3 wrote:Revisionist history to say AD was better than LeBron in 2020 imo. LeBron was clearly that team’s MVP and outplayed AD through the playoffs.
As for the thread, as someone that does have peak LeBron over peak MJ, I think this is clearly 91 Jordan. Despite what I said about LeBron being better than AD that year, AD was still a tremendous #2 and took a ton of pressure off him. He was much better than Pippen for Jordan. That’s probably why LeBron’s defense looked so much better than it did compared to the years immediately preceding it. I’d still take LeBron over Jordan defensively, but not by a lot, and I also think Jordan was just a much more capable player offensively at that point.
I think the biggest difference was the long off season. We've seen so many guys start to wear down and have less energy after 3-4 finals runs. LeBron in 2018 was coming off of 7 straight along with some Olympics thrown in when he carried that team and was getting so much criticism for his defense. Then in 2019 he only plays like 50 games, gets the last month of the season off and no playoffs to fully rest and that's what we saw in 2020. AD also helped him to do less on offense but any contender is going to have good offensive pieces. 2020 LeBron was probably the freshest he'd been physically since like 2013. Even in 2014 he was wearing down and couldn't be a two way dynamo with Wade missing so many games. Then in 2015-28 its obvious he was coasting some for the playoffs. 2020 seemed like the last time he was fully dedicated to being a dominant two player for a full season though I think he was still good on both ends in 2021.
IlikeSHAIguys wrote:He's also like way better on defense? Idk why people just ignore that whenever they're saying MJ's close or better. I also don't really get the AD thing at all. The Lakers were like fine without him in 20 and were really really good in 21 with him not playing that much before Lebron got hurt. But for some reason now people are like wow AD was even better when like no he wasn't.
Like honest maybe Lebron is a little too old for this but 91 on 20 seems way more fair to me than 91 on like 2009 or whatever people push as close even though stats and impact say it's obviously not. Saying AD was better isn't really that different from saying Pippen is better and I don't really think people are being real when they start name dropping Harden and AD lol.
It was AD who anchored that 2020 team and besides, they were stacked to the brim with other good defenders like Howard, KCP, Caruso, Green, Rondo, Kuzma, McGee... The reason the Lebron lineups without AD did pretty well on D is that Dwight Howard would come in to replace AD.
AD in 2020 was way better on defense than Lebron was. I mean that isn't even debatable. It's as obvious as the sky being blue. Lebron's impact metrics on D look much better in 2020 and 2021 than in any surrounding years because the roster was so stacked defensively. Literally just about any player who's on the court with Lebron was a good defender. But Lebron himself had moments of strong defense but was cruising most of the time. Low motor generally through and in the Finals got badly exposed when guarding Jimmy.
Okay so who here said Lebron was a better defender? Lebron's total play being better than AD was also the sky being blue.
IlikeSHAIguys wrote:He's also like way better on defense? Idk why people just ignore that whenever they're saying MJ's close or better. I also don't really get the AD thing at all. The Lakers were like fine without him in 20 and were really really good in 21 with him not playing that much before Lebron got hurt. But for some reason now people are like wow AD was even better when like no he wasn't.
Like honest maybe Lebron is a little too old for this but 91 on 20 seems way more fair to me than 91 on like 2009 or whatever people push as close even though stats and impact say it's obviously not. Saying AD was better isn't really that different from saying Pippen is better and I don't really think people are being real when they start name dropping Harden and AD lol.
It was AD who anchored that 2020 team and besides, they were stacked to the brim with other good defenders like Howard, KCP, Caruso, Green, Rondo, Kuzma, McGee... The reason the Lebron lineups without AD did pretty well on D is that Dwight Howard would come in to replace AD.
AD in 2020 was way better on defense than Lebron was. I mean that isn't even debatable. It's as obvious as the sky being blue. Lebron's impact metrics on D look much better in 2020 and 2021 than in any surrounding years because the roster was so stacked defensively. Literally just about any player who's on the court with Lebron was a good defender. But Lebron himself had moments of strong defense but was cruising most of the time. Low motor generally through and in the Finals got badly exposed when guarding Jimmy.
Okay so who here said Lebron was a better defender? Lebron's total play being better than AD was also the sky being blue.
The bolded isn’t true given what happened with lineups. If it were, we’d see it RAPM data, but the fact was that LeBron was lifting lineups defensively.
LeBron did well defensively with AD off, but AD did t with LeBron off. LeBron did the best defensively with both AD and Dwight off though we only have ~300 minutes worth.
James + Cook: 90.8 (11.7 better with LeBron) James + Rondo: 100.1 (7.2 better with LeBron) James + Caruso: 95.1 (5.9 better with LeBron) James + Kuzma: 99.8 (5.4 better with LeBron) James + Davis: 103.2 (3.2 better with LeBron) James + KCP: 104.2 (3.0 better with LeBron) James + Howard: 104.5 (1.9 better with LeBron) James + Green: 104.7 (1.3 better with LeBron) James + Bradley: 103.1 (.9 better with LeBron) James + Morris: 102.5 (.9 better with LeBron) James + McGee: 105.2 (.7 better with LeBron) James + Daniels: 102.6 (.1 better with LeBron) James + Dudley: 102.1 (3.7 worse with LeBron)
lessthanjake wrote:Kyrie was extremely impactful without LeBron, and basically had zero impact whatsoever if LeBron was on the court.
lessthanjake wrote: By playing in a way that prevents Kyrie from getting much impact, LeBron ensures that controlling for Kyrie has limited effect…
This is Dirk Davis we're talking about, not Anthony Davis.
He was absolutely GOATed during that run. Variance went on his favour on basically every opportunity. He was not a better player than LeBron, but he did probably perform better.
This place is a cesspool of mindless ineptitude, mental decrepitude, and intellectual lassitude. I refuse to be sucked any deeper into this whirlpool of groupthink sewage. My opinions have been expressed. I'm going to go take a shower.
ShotCreator wrote:20 LeBron over 91 Jordan offensively is a tough sell.
Space and pace kind of inflates LeBron's numbers a bit and would make you believe he's as good or better than his Miami Heat self for instance.
I mean 2020 LeBron faced Robert Covington, Bam Adebayo, Nikola Jokic, and Jusuf Nurkic as rim protection in the playoffs. All impact metrics point to Anthony Davis being better in this playoff run as well.
I don't think he was better than 2020 Harden this year, and 91 Jordan vs 20 Harden isn't much of a debate for me.
Great year, great player, but a tad overrated if were taking the production at face value. He is however easily the best 35 year old ever in this season though. In a not close way.
20 Harden got destroyed by Lu Dort in R1 of the playoffs, not to mention his defense was /s super stellar all season.
Harden put up 30/8/6 on 62 TS% in a series where Westbrook didn’t play and the rockets became the only team to ever shoot less free throws than their opponent in all 7 games (ie its not like the refs helped).
I stand corrected. Could have sworn I was remembering correctly; perhaps I was thinking only of Game 7.
Djoker wrote: It was AD who anchored that 2020 team and besides, they were stacked to the brim with other good defenders like Howard, KCP, Caruso, Green, Rondo, Kuzma, McGee... The reason the Lebron lineups without AD did pretty well on D is that Dwight Howard would come in to replace AD.
AD in 2020 was way better on defense than Lebron was. I mean that isn't even debatable. It's as obvious as the sky being blue. Lebron's impact metrics on D look much better in 2020 and 2021 than in any surrounding years because the roster was so stacked defensively. Literally just about any player who's on the court with Lebron was a good defender. But Lebron himself had moments of strong defense but was cruising most of the time. Low motor generally through and in the Finals got badly exposed when guarding Jimmy.
Okay so who here said Lebron was a better defender? Lebron's total play being better than AD was also the sky being blue.
The bolded isn’t true given what happened with lineups. If it were, we’d see it RAPM data, but the fact was that LeBron was lifting lineups defensively.
LeBron did well defensively with AD off, but AD did t with LeBron off. LeBron did the best defensively with both AD and Dwight off though we only have ~300 minutes worth.
James + Cook: 90.8 (11.7 better with LeBron) James + Rondo: 100.1 (7.2 better with LeBron) James + Caruso: 95.1 (5.9 better with LeBron) James + Kuzma: 99.8 (5.4 better with LeBron) James + Davis: 103.2 (3.2 better with LeBron) James + KCP: 104.2 (3.0 better with LeBron) James + Howard: 104.5 (1.9 better with LeBron) James + Green: 104.7 (1.3 better with LeBron) James + Bradley: 103.1 (.9 better with LeBron) James + Morris: 102.5 (.9 better with LeBron) James + McGee: 105.2 (.7 better with LeBron) James + Daniels: 102.6 (.1 better with LeBron) James + Dudley: 102.1 (3.7 worse with LeBron)
Thanks for all of these stats! Is there anymore you could share, or maybe anything that you've watched from 2020 Lebron that you think stands out defensively?
Djoker wrote: It was AD who anchored that 2020 team and besides, they were stacked to the brim with other good defenders like Howard, KCP, Caruso, Green, Rondo, Kuzma, McGee... The reason the Lebron lineups without AD did pretty well on D is that Dwight Howard would come in to replace AD.
AD in 2020 was way better on defense than Lebron was. I mean that isn't even debatable. It's as obvious as the sky being blue. Lebron's impact metrics on D look much better in 2020 and 2021 than in any surrounding years because the roster was so stacked defensively. Literally just about any player who's on the court with Lebron was a good defender. But Lebron himself had moments of strong defense but was cruising most of the time. Low motor generally through and in the Finals got badly exposed when guarding Jimmy.
Okay so who here said Lebron was a better defender? Lebron's total play being better than AD was also the sky being blue.
The bolded isn’t true given what happened with lineups. If it were, we’d see it RAPM data, but the fact was that LeBron was lifting lineups defensively.
LeBron did well defensively with AD off, but AD did t with LeBron off. LeBron did the best defensively with both AD and Dwight off though we only have ~300 minutes worth.
James + Cook: 90.8 (11.7 better with LeBron) James + Rondo: 100.1 (7.2 better with LeBron) James + Caruso: 95.1 (5.9 better with LeBron) James + Kuzma: 99.8 (5.4 better with LeBron) James + Davis: 103.2 (3.2 better with LeBron) James + KCP: 104.2 (3.0 better with LeBron) James + Howard: 104.5 (1.9 better with LeBron) James + Green: 104.7 (1.3 better with LeBron) James + Bradley: 103.1 (.9 better with LeBron) James + Morris: 102.5 (.9 better with LeBron) James + McGee: 105.2 (.7 better with LeBron) James + Daniels: 102.6 (.1 better with LeBron) James + Dudley: 102.1 (3.7 worse with LeBron)
The minutes for those lineups are way too low to make much of it.
AD is taller, longer and spent way more time in the paint contesting shots. The rim data paints a pretty stark picture:
2020 Regular Season - Rim dFG%/Rim Attempts Contested
Lebron: 55.7%/244 Davis: 50.6%/316
2020 Postseason - RIm dFG%/Rim Attempts Contested
Lebron: 64.8%/91 Davis: 52.8%/123
Not even close and the gap becomes even greater in the postseason.
Note also that Davis played fewer minutes and games in the regular season so the attempts disparity in high leverage situations is even higher.
Djoker wrote: It was AD who anchored that 2020 team and besides, they were stacked to the brim with other good defenders like Howard, KCP, Caruso, Green, Rondo, Kuzma, McGee... The reason the Lebron lineups without AD did pretty well on D is that Dwight Howard would come in to replace AD.
AD in 2020 was way better on defense than Lebron was. I mean that isn't even debatable. It's as obvious as the sky being blue. Lebron's impact metrics on D look much better in 2020 and 2021 than in any surrounding years because the roster was so stacked defensively. Literally just about any player who's on the court with Lebron was a good defender. But Lebron himself had moments of strong defense but was cruising most of the time. Low motor generally through and in the Finals got badly exposed when guarding Jimmy.
Okay so who here said Lebron was a better defender? Lebron's total play being better than AD was also the sky being blue.
The bolded isn’t true given what happened with lineups. If it were, we’d see it RAPM data, but the fact was that LeBron was lifting lineups defensively.
LeBron did well defensively with AD off, but AD did t with LeBron off. LeBron did the best defensively with both AD and Dwight off though we only have ~300 minutes worth.
James + Cook: 90.8 (11.7 better with LeBron) James + Rondo: 100.1 (7.2 better with LeBron) James + Caruso: 95.1 (5.9 better with LeBron) James + Kuzma: 99.8 (5.4 better with LeBron) James + Davis: 103.2 (3.2 better with LeBron) James + KCP: 104.2 (3.0 better with LeBron) James + Howard: 104.5 (1.9 better with LeBron) James + Green: 104.7 (1.3 better with LeBron) James + Bradley: 103.1 (.9 better with LeBron) James + Morris: 102.5 (.9 better with LeBron) James + McGee: 105.2 (.7 better with LeBron) James + Daniels: 102.6 (.1 better with LeBron) James + Dudley: 102.1 (3.7 worse with LeBron)
I’m curious where you got these numbers. The screenshot is clearly from PBPstats, but the numbers you list for players below that do not match PBPstats numbers at all. To take one example, you say the 2020 Lakers had a 106.4 DRTG with Howard on the court, and that it was a 104.5 DRTG with Howard + LeBron. But PBP stats says that the regular season numbers were 108.32 with Howard on the court and 107.51 with Howard + LeBron. I haven’t checked every player, but I looked at a few players and did not find a single number that matched what you listed. It occurred to me that maybe you were talking about the playoffs only. But the numbers don’t match there either. Nor do they match if I look at RS+Playoffs. I thought maybe you were screenshotting PBPstats but that the numbers after that came from Basketball Reference, but Basketball Reference numbers don’t match either (nor am I aware of a way to get DRTG data from Basketball Reference for when two players were both on).
To be clear, I haven’t actually looked at enough of this data to know if your overarching point would hold if we actually used the PBPstats data I’m looking at (i.e. whether PBPstats would tell us that DRTG tended to get better with LeBron on the court with someone). But I can’t figure out where your numbers actually come from. Either I’m missing something significant here, or there was a mistake in the data collection.
OhayoKD wrote:Lebron contributes more to all the phases of play than Messi does. And he is of course a defensive anchor unlike messi.
IlikeSHAIguys wrote:He's also like way better on defense? Idk why people just ignore that whenever they're saying MJ's close or better. I also don't really get the AD thing at all. The Lakers were like fine without him in 20 and were really really good in 21 with him not playing that much before Lebron got hurt. But for some reason now people are like wow AD was even better when like no he wasn't.
Like honest maybe Lebron is a little too old for this but 91 on 20 seems way more fair to me than 91 on like 2009 or whatever people push as close even though stats and impact say it's obviously not. Saying AD was better isn't really that different from saying Pippen is better and I don't really think people are being real when they start name dropping Harden and AD lol.
It was AD who anchored that 2020 team and besides, they were stacked to the brim with other good defenders like Howard, KCP, Caruso, Green, Rondo, Kuzma, McGee... The reason the Lebron lineups without AD did pretty well on D is that Dwight Howard would come in to replace AD.
AD in 2020 was way better on defense than Lebron was. I mean that isn't even debatable. It's as obvious as the sky being blue. Lebron's impact metrics on D look much better in 2020 and 2021 than in any surrounding years because the roster was so stacked defensively. Literally just about any player who's on the court with Lebron was a good defender. But Lebron himself had moments of strong defense but was cruising most of the time. Low motor generally through and in the Finals got badly exposed when guarding Jimmy.
The bolded part is not true. Lebron has a very very good argument for being the better defender than AD. And he might as well be a better defender.. I guess you're just misinformed by the Jordan stans, but I don't know why anyone who isn't uninformed would think this way..
IlikeSHAIguys wrote:He's also like way better on defense? Idk why people just ignore that whenever they're saying MJ's close or better. I also don't really get the AD thing at all. The Lakers were like fine without him in 20 and were really really good in 21 with him not playing that much before Lebron got hurt. But for some reason now people are like wow AD was even better when like no he wasn't.
Like honest maybe Lebron is a little too old for this but 91 on 20 seems way more fair to me than 91 on like 2009 or whatever people push as close even though stats and impact say it's obviously not. Saying AD was better isn't really that different from saying Pippen is better and I don't really think people are being real when they start name dropping Harden and AD lol.
It was AD who anchored that 2020 team and besides, they were stacked to the brim with other good defenders like Howard, KCP, Caruso, Green, Rondo, Kuzma, McGee... The reason the Lebron lineups without AD did pretty well on D is that Dwight Howard would come in to replace AD.
AD in 2020 was way better on defense than Lebron was. I mean that isn't even debatable. It's as obvious as the sky being blue. Lebron's impact metrics on D look much better in 2020 and 2021 than in any surrounding years because the roster was so stacked defensively. Literally just about any player who's on the court with Lebron was a good defender. But Lebron himself had moments of strong defense but was cruising most of the time. Low motor generally through and in the Finals got badly exposed when guarding Jimmy.
The bolded part is not true. Lebron has a very very good argument for being the better defender than AD. And he might as well be a better defender.. I guess you're just misinformed by the Jordan stans, but I don't know why anyone who isn't uninformed would think this way..
Saying Lebron is a better defender than AD is an insane take. That would be like a Jordan stan saying that he has a good argument to be a better defender than Hakeem or Robinson. It's lunacy...
Top10alltime wrote:Lebron has a very very good argument for being the better defender than AD. And he might as well be a better defender.. I guess you're just misinformed by the Jordan stans, but I don't know why anyone who isn't uninformed would think this way..
This is an insane take, even for a James superfan.
- Anthony Davis finished 2nd in Dpoy voting and received several 1st place votes over Antetokounmpo . - Lebron James received zero votes for Dpoy and was not even in the conversation. - Frank Vogel repeatedly referred to Davis as the team's defensive anchor and best defensive player. - Davis took on the toughest defensive assignments, even guarded perimeter players like Harden for stretches. - James was rarely asked to defend the opponent's best scorer. He was used as a helper/roamer which was a luxury because of Davis anchoring the defense. - Davis led the Lakers in defensive win shares - Davis led the Lakers in defensive BPM - Davis led the Lakers in dfg differential among Lakers starters - Davis averaged 2.3 bpg and 1.5 spg and altered many shots that diddn't go in the box score
Top10alltime wrote:Lebron has a very very good argument for being the better defender than AD. And he might as well be a better defender.. I guess you're just misinformed by the Jordan stans, but I don't know why anyone who isn't uninformed would think this way..
This is an insane take, even for a James superfan.
- Anthony Davis finished 2nd in Dpoy voting and received several 1st place votes over Antetokounmpo . - Lebron James received zero votes for Dpoy and was not even in the conversation. - Frank Vogel repeatedly referred to Davis as the team's defensive anchor and best defensive player. - Davis took on the toughest defensive assignments, even guarded perimeter players like Harden for stretches. - James was rarely asked to defend the opponent's best scorer. He was used as a helper/roamer which was a luxury because of Davis anchoring the defense. - Davis led the Lakers in defensive win shares - Davis led the Lakers in defensive BPM - Davis led the Lakers in dfg differential among Lakers starters - Davis averaged 2.3 bpg and 1.5 spg and altered many shots that diddn't go in the box score
Not in the playoffs
Win shares (lol) are tied at 1.2 James leads BPM 3.1 to 2.1 James actually leads in REB% and is tied in STL% James on court has better opponent ORtg, eFG% than Davis
I do agree that Davis was a more impactful defender in the RS. But in the playoffs the idea that one was significantly above the other is a bit silly in my opinion. At worst they are on the same tier.
We are not comparing a shooting guard to a center here, were comparing a SF/PF with a PF/C.
LookToShoot wrote:Melo is the only player that makes the Rockets watchable for the basketball purists. Otherwise it would just be three point shots and pick n roll.
Top10alltime wrote:Lebron has a very very good argument for being the better defender than AD. And he might as well be a better defender.. I guess you're just misinformed by the Jordan stans, but I don't know why anyone who isn't uninformed would think this way..
This is an insane take, even for a James superfan.
- Anthony Davis finished 2nd in Dpoy voting and received several 1st place votes over Antetokounmpo . - Lebron James received zero votes for Dpoy and was not even in the conversation. - Frank Vogel repeatedly referred to Davis as the team's defensive anchor and best defensive player. - Davis took on the toughest defensive assignments, even guarded perimeter players like Harden for stretches. - James was rarely asked to defend the opponent's best scorer. He was used as a helper/roamer which was a luxury because of Davis anchoring the defense. - Davis led the Lakers in defensive win shares - Davis led the Lakers in defensive BPM - Davis led the Lakers in dfg differential among Lakers starters - Davis averaged 2.3 bpg and 1.5 spg and altered many shots that diddn't go in the box score
Not in the playoffs
Win shares (lol) are tied at 1.2 James leads BPM 3.1 to 2.1 James actually leads in REB% and is tied in STL% James on court has better opponent ORtg, eFG% than Davis
I do agree that Davis was a more impactful defender in the RS. But in the playoffs the idea that one was significantly above the other is a bit silly in my opinion. At worst they are on the same tier.
We are not comparing a shooting guard to a center here, were comparing a SF/PF with a PF/C.
Technically, LeBron played PG for a majority of the season, per BB-Ref. The most impressive thing about LeBron at PG is his defensive value and what it does from a team-building exercise. It allows for undersized 2-guards like Avery Bradley to flourish. Heck, the whole team was built improperly, they had no true wings with size aside from Lebron/Kuzma and instead had Caruso/Rondo/Bradley/KCP/Green all vying for minutes at the 1-3.
This team construction wouldn't work around offensive centerpieces like Nash, Magic or CP3 in place of LeBron since their would be a major defensive hole at the wing. Players like Kawhi, Jordan and KD don't provide the offensive playmaking on-ball to compensate for what LeBron was doing offensively as a playmaker.
As we saw for the duration of the Lakers during LeBron's tenure, the roster Contruction ideology and execution was objectively bad. We will see if they have learned over the past decade and how they put pieces around Luka, but by the looks of it, the roster construction is lackluster.
Win shares (lol) are tied at 1.2 James leads BPM 3.1 to 2.1 James actually leads in REB% and is tied in STL% James on court has better opponent ORtg, eFG% than Davis
I do agree that Davis was a more impactful defender in the RS. But in the playoffs the idea that one was significantly above the other is a bit silly in my opinion. At worst they are on the same tier.
We are not comparing a shooting guard to a center here, were comparing a SF/PF with a PF/C.
Technically, LeBron played PG for a majority of the season, per BB-Ref. The most impressive thing about LeBron at PG is his defensive value and what it does from a team-building exercise. It allows for undersized 2-guards like Avery Bradley to flourish. Heck, the whole team was built improperly, they had no true wings with size aside from Lebron/Kuzma and instead had Caruso/Rondo/Bradley/KCP/Green all vying for minutes at the 1-3.
This team construction wouldn't work around offensive centerpieces like Nash, Magic or CP3 in place of LeBron since their would be a major defensive hole at the wing. Players like Kawhi, Jordan and KD don't provide the offensive playmaking on-ball to compensate for what LeBron was doing offensively as a playmaker.
As we saw for the duration of the Lakers during LeBron's tenure, the roster Contruction ideology and execution was objectively bad. We will see if they have learned over the past decade and how they put pieces around Luka, but by the looks of it, the roster construction is lackluster.
The bolded are excellent points. That team really was strangely constructed, partly due to circumstances, i.e., they were trying to get a third star but failed, and partly due to what we have seen as incompetence.
But the team really should have not been as good as it was. You had good defensive players in Green, though declined and his defensive minutes with AD and no Bron were mediocre, Bradley whose defensive minutes with AD and no Bron were also mediocre and wasn’t even available in the playoffs, KCP, same as with Green and Bradley, Caruso who was good defensively no matter what, Kuzma who mediocre at best, Rondo who was poor defensively, McGee who could be a positive if there someone telling whom to rotate to like Bron did or Draymond did with GSW, and Dwight who was good in certain situations though the AD/Dwight lineups were trash defensively.
Then there’s the offense: Rondo was a good playmaker in the playoffs and created good synergy with AD, but was meh in the regular season. There wasn’t any shooting nor playmaking+defense combos to be had on the roster. Only player that could be said to be a plus offensive player would be Green who played a very specific role.
Then you had the massive 3P deficit the team faced in the most 3P friendly environment ever in the bubble yet the team thrived.
homecourtloss wrote:A quick way to look at things without getting into more granular shot quality, who’s shooting, etc., is to calculate a quick 3P+ which is simply 100*(three-pointers made per 100 possessions/league average three-pointers made per 100 possessions) where a 3P+ of 100 is league average. Only three teams title teams since 2010 have been below 100 and only six below 108.
After the 2015-2017 period, we have seen NBA champions not separate themselves in 3P+ until the Celtics this year posted a near 130 3P+ in a league in which most teams are hunting threes every chance they get.
Spoiler:
Every single champion since 2010 has been top 6 in either three point attempt rate or percentage except for the 2012 Heat and 2020 Lakers, two teams that are close to being technical outliers.
Spoiler:
Three-point % league rank of NBA champions since 2011
Three-point attempt rate league rank and three-point % league rank of NBA champions since 2011
2024 Celtics, 1st and 2nd 2023 Nuggets, 21st and 4th 2022 Warriors, 2nd and 9th 2021 Bucks, 12th and 5th 2020 Lakers, 22nd and 21st 2019 Raptors, 10th and 6th 2018 Warrior, 15th and 1st 2017 Warriors, 6th and 3rd 2016 Cavs, 3rd and 6th 2015 Warriors, 7th and 1st 2014 Spurs, 16th and 1st 2013 Heat, 5th and 2nd 2012 Heat, 21st and 9th 2011 Mavs, 3rd and 11th
Btw, it’s interesting that in the last 15 years, LeBron has been the offensive engine title/finals team with the highest 3P+, i.e., 2017 Cavs, and lowest with the 2020 lakers and 2012 Heat.
homecourtloss wrote:Every Champion and Finalist from 2011 to 2024
Spoiler:
Lastly, 2020 was LeBron’s most ball-dominant season as calculated by how much time he held the ball per per possession BUT the ORtg on-off didn’t suffer because he had a competent playmaking back up in Rondo in the playoffs. I don’t think there there has been a lead offense imitator with the ball also being this great defensively, which allows a team to reach the heights that it did. To be the lead offensive cog with the ball WHILE being great defensively WHILE being 35 is absolutely ludicrous and basically a one of one type player.
lessthanjake wrote:Kyrie was extremely impactful without LeBron, and basically had zero impact whatsoever if LeBron was on the court.
lessthanjake wrote: By playing in a way that prevents Kyrie from getting much impact, LeBron ensures that controlling for Kyrie has limited effect…
LeBron/AD on: +10.21 LeBron on, AD off: +8.79 AD on, LeBron off: -0.68 Both off: -3.13
RS+PS, low leverage removed
LeBron/AD on: +11.39 LeBron on, AD off: +10.77 AD on, LeBron off: -0.46 Both off: -1.56
Honestly not sure if "2020 LeBron > 1991 Jordan" or "2020 Davis > 2020 LeBron" is a sillier take.
Maybe I missed something, but I don’t know that people are really saying “2020 Davis > 2020 LeBron.” What I do see people saying is that 2020 Davis was a better defender than 2020 LeBron. I also see people suggesting that 2020 Davis might’ve performed better in the playoffs. On that latter point, I note that, in those playoffs, the Lakers did better in the AD on, LeBron off minutes (+5.41) than they did in the LeBron on, AD off minutes (+2.29). The sample for each is only like 200 minutes, so it’s not particularly meaningful IMO, but am just saying that the form of analysis you’re using does not really suggest 2020 playoffs Davis > 2020 playoffs LeBron, and that’s the claim that is much more commonly made. That said, the regular season DRTG with LeBron on and AD off was better than vice versa. So this form of analysis does cut against the argument that 2020 AD was a better defender than 2020 LeBron. In both cases, though, I think we’re talking about some pretty small samples (cutting up playoff data always leads to tiny samples, and single-season on-off data in a shortened season is definitely noisy), so this kind of data probably shouldn’t form the basis for peoples’ views on these subjects.
When samples are small like this, I think it’s definitely better to look at all-in-one data. The whole point of those metrics is to produce meaningful data in samples that are too small for raw impact data to be very useful. On that front, we can look at EPM—which is IMO a good one to use here, since (1) it actually has playoff-specific data; and (2) one of the questions is defense specifically, and EPM actually uses defensive tracking data. We see that AD had a playoff EPM of +7.3, while LeBron had a playoff EPM of +6.6. Meanwhile, AD’s regular season D-EPM was +2.3, while LeBron’s regular season D-EPM was +1.6. And AD’s playoff D-EPM was +2.7, while LeBron’s playoff D-EPM was +1.5. So EPM suggests that AD was slightly better than LeBron overall in the 2020 playoffs, and that he was a better defender in both regular season and playoffs. I wouldn’t take this output as the perfect truth or anything (indeed, I’m not necessarily sure I personally agree with it, as it pertains to who was better overall in the playoffs), but it suggests that the takes I see in this thread on this are not silly. FWIW, it does have LeBron a little ahead of AD in regular season EPM that year, so it wouldn’t really support a more general “2020 AD > 2020 LeBron” take (though the two are close enough to suggest it’s not silly), but I don’t really see that as the argument people have made.
OhayoKD wrote:Lebron contributes more to all the phases of play than Messi does. And he is of course a defensive anchor unlike messi.
LeBron/AD on: +10.21 LeBron on, AD off: +8.79 AD on, LeBron off: -0.68 Both off: -3.13
RS+PS, low leverage removed
LeBron/AD on: +11.39 LeBron on, AD off: +10.77 AD on, LeBron off: -0.46 Both off: -1.56
Honestly not sure if "2020 LeBron > 1991 Jordan" or "2020 Davis > 2020 LeBron" is a sillier take.
Maybe I missed something, but I don’t know that people are really saying “2020 Davis > 2020 LeBron.” What I do see people saying is that 2020 Davis was a better defender than 2020 LeBron. I also see people suggesting that 2020 Davis might’ve performed better in the playoffs. On that latter point, I note that, in those playoffs, the Lakers did better in the AD on, LeBron off minutes (+5.41) than they did in the LeBron on, AD off minutes (+2.29). The sample for each is only like 200 minutes, so it’s not particularly meaningful IMO, but am just saying that the form of analysis you’re using does not really suggest 2020 playoffs Davis > 2020 playoffs LeBron, and that’s the claim that is much more commonly made. That said, the regular season DRTG with LeBron on and AD off was better than vice versa. So this form of analysis does cut against the argument that 2020 AD was a better defender than 2020 LeBron. In both cases, though, I think we’re talking about some pretty small samples (cutting up playoff data always leads to tiny samples, and single-season on-off data in a shortened season is definitely noisy), so this kind of data probably shouldn’t form the basis for peoples’ views on these subjects.
When samples are small like this, I think it’s definitely better to look at all-in-one data. The whole point of those metrics is to produce meaningful data in samples that are too small for raw impact data to be very useful. On that front, we can look at EPM—which is IMO a good one to use here, since (1) it actually has playoff-specific data; and (2) one of the questions is defense specifically, and EPM actually uses defensive tracking data. We see that AD had a playoff EPM of +7.3, while LeBron had a playoff EPM of +6.6. Meanwhile, AD’s regular season D-EPM was +2.3, while LeBron’s regular season D-EPM was +1.6. And AD’s playoff D-EPM was +2.7, while LeBron’s playoff D-EPM was +1.5. So EPM suggests that AD was slightly better than LeBron overall in the 2020 playoffs, and that he was a better defender in both regular season and playoffs. I wouldn’t take this output as the perfect truth or anything (indeed, I’m not necessarily sure I personally agree with it, as it pertains to who was better overall in the playoffs), but it suggests that the takes I see in this thread on this are not silly. FWIW, it does have LeBron a little ahead of AD in regular season EPM that year, so it wouldn’t really support a more general “2020 AD > 2020 LeBron” take (though the two are close enough to suggest it’s not silly), but I don’t really see that as the argument people have made.
Bad Bart wrote:
Special_Puppy wrote:Box score data pretty strongly favors Jordan. Team results are also strongly in Jordan. 1991 Bulls are a top 15 team of all time while the 2020 Lakers are decidedly not. In addition LeBron was probably not even the best player in the league in 2020. The advanced stats we have in 2020 suggest that Harden+Giannis might have had a better season than LeBron.
Pretty sure that a player on his own team had a better season (and playoffs).
