Stockton says LeBrons titles don’t have value

[Kingsway_fan]

I'll give him the Cleveland one... the rest? Stockton is 100 percent right ...

[DimesandKnicks]

You can’t possible believe this. Stacking the deck was the whole point in Miami.

No, it wasn't.

Thanks for proving my point.

Nothing has been proven other than your not willing to let any criticism of LeBron go without trying to refute it without anything to back you up. Miami is literally stacking the deck. So is Cleveland return. So is LA.

How is leaving Wade and Bosh, two players who managed to drag their teams to the playoffs on their own, after winning two championships to join Kyrie Irving and Love on the Cav’s…two players who’ve never been to the playoffs and a **** organization?

How is joining the Heat “Stacking the deck” when he had the Celtics to go up against (again it’s fine for organizations to “stack the deck” just not players)?

No one viewed LeBron joining the Cav’s as “stacking the deck” at the time at all

[LakerLegend]

No, it wasn't.

Thanks for proving my point.

Nothing has been proven other than your not willing to let any criticism of LeBron go without trying to refute it without anything to back you up. Miami is literally stacking the deck. So is Cleveland return. So is LA.

How is leaving Wade and Bosh, two players who managed to drag their teams to the playoffs on their own, after winning two championships to join Kyrie Irving and Love on the Cav’s…two players who’ve never been to the playoffs and a **** organization?

How is joining the Heat “Stacking the deck” when he had the Celtics to go up against (again it’s fine for organizations to “stack the deck” just not players)?

No one viewed LeBron joining the Cav’s as “stacking the deck” at the time at all

The Celtics were on their last legs and the heat got swept in the finals.

[DimesandKnicks]

Nothing has been proven other than your not willing to let any criticism of LeBron go without trying to refute it without anything to back you up. Miami is literally stacking the deck. So is Cleveland return. So is LA.

How is leaving Wade and Bosh, two players who managed to drag their teams to the playoffs on their own, after winning two championships to join Kyrie Irving and Love on the Cav’s…two players who’ve never been to the playoffs and a **** organization?

How is joining the Heat “Stacking the deck” when he had the Celtics to go up against (again it’s fine for organizations to “stack the deck” just not players)?

No one viewed LeBron joining the Cav’s as “stacking the deck” at the time at all

The Celtics were on their last legs and the heat got swept in the finals.

So much on their last leg that they took the “trick deck” Heat to 7 games? And if they got swept in the finals…is that really “stacking the deck”?

Stacking the deck is what KD did. He a championship Warriors team. All LeBron did was switch to a team that he felt could continue to compete for a championship..but again, if the Heat traded LeBron or somehow traded for the Cavs roster without LeBron’s knowledge you would be all good

[ball_takes23]

When LeBron James said the famous:

“Not one, not two, not three, not four, not five, not six, not seven…”

he followed it up with:

“...and when I say that, I really mean it.”

That was his way of doubling down — he wasn’t joking, he was promising the fans that the new “Big Three” era (LeBron + Dwyane Wade + Chris Bosh) was built to win multiple championships.

Context around the line:

Before: He was asked how many championships the team would win.

During: He gave the “Not one, not two...” count, hyping up the crowd.

After: He said “and when I say that, I really mean it” to emphasize it wasn’t just talk.

During the celebration, after the “Not one, not two, not three…” bit, LeBron kept hyping the crowd and said lines like:

“When we get to the game, it’s gonna be easy.”

He was basically promising that with him, Dwyane Wade, and Chris Bosh together, the Heat would dominate once the season started — that their talent would overwhelm the competition..

Since there’s no official transcript, this is pulled from reliable quotes, archived news reports, and the actual event video (the rally at American Airlines Arena).

LeBron’s Speech at the 2010 Heat Rally — Key Flow

On expectations for championships

“It’s going to be easy. I mean, with this team right here… we’re going to challenge each other every day in practice, and that’s going to make us great. And once the games start — it’s gonna be easy.”

The iconic prediction

“We’re not here just to win one. Not two. Not three. Not four. Not five. Not six. Not seven…”
“…and when I say that, I really mean it.”

(The crowd went wild — this is the most replayed moment from the event.)

Hype about how dominant they’d be

“The way we’re going to fast break… the way we’re going to defend… it’s going to be something you’ve never seen before.”

The Pat Riley line

“With me and D-Wade running the wing, Pat [Riley] could come back and still average 15 points a game.”

You don't say any of these above quotes unless the deck is completely stacked in your favor

And this is exactly why Stockton's quote is hitting such a nerve, he's calling out all the bull spewed by Lebron apologists and their attempts of rewriting history, and they get really mad when people tell the truth about the way that everything actually went down

[Iwasawitness]

You can’t possible believe this. Stacking the deck was the whole point in Miami.

No, it wasn't.

Thanks for proving my point.

Nothing has been proven other than your not willing to let any criticism of LeBron go without trying to refute it without anything to back you up. Miami is literally stacking the deck. So is Cleveland return. So is LA.

Stacking the deck means creating an unfair advantage.

There was nothing unfair about what LeBron did.

Again, learn what these terms mean before you use them.

[Cavsfansince84]

You don't say any of these above quotes unless the deck is completely stacked in your favor

And this is exactly why Stockton's quote is hitting such a nerve, he's calling out all the bull spewed by Lebron apologists and their attempts of rewriting history, and they get really mad when people tell the truth about the way that everything actually went down

People always want to act like the 'not 1, not 2, not 3' thing is something LeBron just said out of nowhere. Go watch the video. It was a direct response to a Miami Heat pr guy saying 'you guys didn't come here just to win 1 title did you?'. With like 1000 fans in attendance. I honestly don't know how or why this is so hard for people to wrap their heads around other than they just have this innate need to hate on LeBron. It was a team stacked with 3 stars but bb isn't played with 3 guys who play 30-40mpg. It's a team game. LeBron was confident and also reveling in having turned the bb world on its head while trying to hype up the Miami crowd. Him saying it would be easy was him not yet even understanding how things would work out and everything else. It'd be like if someone asks Magnus Carlsen before a chess match how it will go and he says 'it will be easy' and then it ends up being difficult. It's just speaking from over confidence in the moment.

[MightyMouse10]

No, it wasn't.

Thanks for proving my point.

Nothing has been proven other than your not willing to let any criticism of LeBron go without trying to refute it without anything to back you up. Miami is literally stacking the deck. So is Cleveland return. So is LA.

Stacking the deck means creating an unfair advantage.

There was nothing unfair about what LeBron did.

Again, learn what these terms mean before you use them.

It was stacking the deck. They had a top 2-3 player in the SF, SG & PF spot. All in their prime. Imagine Jordan teaming up with Hakeem olajuwon and charles barkley after not beating the Pistons. I remember Flo Rida came out with a song called "We already won". They were +175 to win the championship that year. By comparison, the GSW were -150 when they signed durant. After cleveland traded for kevin love they were +250. His switch to Miami and Cleveland made the team he was on the "Vegas" favourites of the league. The deck was stacked in both scenarios.

To me winning two championships in Miami was a failure for Bosh, Wade & Lebron. That team should have won every single year. The MVP, a former finals MVP and a Superstar PF.

[Iwasawitness]

Nothing has been proven other than your not willing to let any criticism of LeBron go without trying to refute it without anything to back you up. Miami is literally stacking the deck. So is Cleveland return. So is LA.

Stacking the deck means creating an unfair advantage.

There was nothing unfair about what LeBron did.

Again, learn what these terms mean before you use them.

It was stacking the deck. They had a top 2-3 player in the SF, SG & PF spot. All in their prime. Imagine Jordan teaming up with Hakeem olajuwon and charles barkley after not beating the Pistons. I remember Flo Rida came out with a song called "We already won". They were +175 to win the championship that year. By comparison, the GSW were -150 when they signed durant. After cleveland traded for kevin love they were +250. His switch to Miami and Cleveland made the team he was on the "Vegas" favourites of the league. The deck was stacked in both scenarios.

To me winning two championships in Miami was a failure for Bosh, Wade & Lebron. That team should have won every single year. The MVP, a former finals MVP and a Superstar PF.

Oh goodie, this argument again.

First off, Bosh was not a top 3 player at his position. You had the likes of Pau, Duncan, Amare, Dirk, and KG. Those were the locks at five, as Bosh didn't have an argument over any of them. So at best, he's outside the top 5.

So in reality, what LeBron really had first and foremost was a top 2 player at his position for a teammate, and a top ten player at his position for a teammate. Guess what? Jordan had that too in Pippen and Grant. So this is a very stupid argument. I don't need to imagine it, that already happened.

Now granted, I'm exaggerating a bit here. After all, Wade and Bosh as players are better than Pippen and Grant. But there's multiple issues here, one being that Jordan fit a LOT better with his best teammates than LeBron did. And not to mention Jordan spent years playing with them to develop chemistry. LeBron didn't have such fortune. But second and more importantly, what the Bulls had beyond those three was much better than what Miami had beyond their three. I don't know how many times this needs to be said, but basketball is more than just your three best players. For some reason, everyone forgets this.

Not even going to waste my time explaining why Hakeem and Barkley is a stupid comparison.

Last part of this post... You claim them only winning two titles is a failure. Why? In both cases that they lost, it was to superior teams. How is losing to a better team a failure? How is that possible if LeBron stacked the deck in his favor? News flash: he didn't, and as I've said several times, if you don't know what a term means, then you should probably stop saying it.

[SlimShady83]

Not even going to waste my time explaining why Hakeem and Barkley is a stupid comparison.

[LakerLegend]

No, it wasn't.

Thanks for proving my point.

Nothing has been proven other than your not willing to let any criticism of LeBron go without trying to refute it without anything to back you up. Miami is literally stacking the deck. So is Cleveland return. So is LA.

Stacking the deck means creating an unfair advantage.

There was nothing unfair about what LeBron did.

Again, learn what these terms mean before you use them.

You're saying nothing of substance except "I'm a LeBron fan and your wrong because I won't accept anything negative about him".

There is literally nothing in this post of substance.

[michaelm]

You said the following:





I'm arguing that comparing 24ish MJ to a 30 year old Lebron is a false equivalency and that Jordan was in win now mode as soon as he got into the league, and was as interested in letting Pippen and Grant develop or building through the draft as Lebron was in Cleveland when they traded the first pick for Lebron. That's why I provided those examples.




Just for context, I'm only bring up Jordan because he is the undisputed goat, and highlighting that he wasn't pulling himself up by his bootstraps. He was asking for immediate help. So Stockton is indugling in revisionist history. Idk how you interpreted my arguments as "Lebron is the only palyer ever worhty of being credited with titles and eberyone else won because of teammates." Clearly I'm saying, EVERYONE who won championships won because they had help (sans Hakeem), including Lebron.



Jordan took more shots and has a greater USG than Lebron despite getting help much earlier on. He got a HOF that implemented a system. Lebron never had this and when he joined MIA. I also recall their being a narrative when James joined the Heat in year one that Lebron deffered to much to wade and by year two Wade had to let Lebron know that the Heat were now his team.




Again Michael, this is my point. He was on an organization that made the right moves. Jordan pressured Krause and owner ship to make poor signing and trade draft picks, not encourage them to build through the draft and let young players develop. And Jordan trading a young Rip Hamilton for an older Jerry Stackhouse is another example of Jordan not being interested in allowing young players develop for win now moves.



We know exactly why Jordan retired and it is because the Bulls were going to retool. He said this himself. If all the players who won the last title were signed to one year contract and Jackson was still coach he would have played another year. And this arguement isn't aimed at you as you feel there is nothing wrong with Lebron's moves to Cleveland/Lakers. But to those who say Lebron continued to stack the deck and didn't want to compete (like Stockton) when Jordan was faced with the same option, he quit.



I'm not diminishing Jordan's career or accomplishments. I'm using him as a proxy to debate the idea that players back in the day weren't interested in "stacking the deck" and asking for help - the perfect player to use as he is the undisputed GOAT on this forum.

We could pick from the top 25 players of all time and they either asked for help or already had it.

You launched into the Jordan stuff as is the wont of those of your ilk. I responded. At all times I have said LeBron had no option to win championships at the Cavs due to the quality of the organisation the first time around, and was justified in leaving.

And again, you try to make a negative out of Jordan retiring at the age of 35 in 1998, elderly at that time, after a feat unprecedented since the Bill Russell Celtics in the infancy of the sport of leading a second threepeat as the universally acclaimed best player in the NBA with no caveats and as the consensus GOAT. He didn't need to keep playing to pass Kareem's points record to have some further claim on greatness, no one at the time, rightly or wrongly, thought Kareem was better than him. As I said Bill Russell retired at age 35 himself, was this because a crystal ball told him Lebron would put him in the shade 41 years later by continuing after that age ?. Was Bill a coward for not trying for a 12th title ?. Utter nonsense. Jordan like Bill could retire any time he felt like it after all he had achieved, and if being pissed off at the Bulls owner whom he had made so much wealthier was among Jordan's reasons so what ?, perhaps he was early into the player empowerment thing. Again, list players who have won titles as the lead player after the age of 35, the answer as I said is zero including LeBron. And when I said contend I didn't mean get absolutely smashed whether or not by the eventual title winner before the finals, there was never any chance of those Lakers teams winning the title, many contend partly because old Lebron can't play out a whole regular season then through a whole play-off series. Even if Jordan retired because he didn't think he could continue to be the best player in the world and win titles if he kept going after the second threepeat, again so what ?, there comes a time for everyone. Lebron has generated some nice numbers since 2020 but no one is under any illusion he has been the best player in the NBA over that period.

And you make the same internally contradictory point as your fellow traveller, how is Jerry Krause making better decisions than Jordan would have made proof that Krause wasn't allowed to build the Bulls teams by Jordan ?. What does it matter if he accepted Krause's decisions grudgingly ?. Steph Curry by wide repute didn't want GSW to fire Mark Jackson either, but go on with things with a new coach with some success. Does this mean he and his teams didn't really win the 4 titles, which most GSW fans doubt would have occurred had GSW continued with Mark Jackson.

You’re arguing against a bunch of arguments I’m not making.

So you say when challenged as did another poster currently on vacation who argues similarly to you. As I have said it would appear Jordan fans are limited to being entirely specific while you can make general arguments as you actually posted in this thread that you and fellow travellers were doing.

Did you not make contentions about why Jordan retired at the age of 35, going so far as to attribute same to cowardice ?. And did you not directly disagree that Jordan allowed Krause to construct the Bulls around him ?. Your argument for the latter continues to escape me, but you did list bad choices that were reputedly Jordan’s preference but were not actually made.

[Iwasawitness]

Nothing has been proven other than your not willing to let any criticism of LeBron go without trying to refute it without anything to back you up. Miami is literally stacking the deck. So is Cleveland return. So is LA.

Stacking the deck means creating an unfair advantage.

There was nothing unfair about what LeBron did.

Again, learn what these terms mean before you use them.

You're saying nothing of substance except "I'm a LeBron fan and your wrong because I won't accept anything negative about him".

There is literally nothing in this post of substance.

You're talking to a guy who constantly says negative things about LeBron. This argument isn't going to fly.

There was never an NBA finals LeBron went into where his team was head and shoulders better than the competition. Your argument is the one that lacks substance here, not mine.

[-Sammy-]

When LeBron James said the famous:

“Not one, not two, not three, not four, not five, not six, not seven…”

he followed it up with:

“...and when I say that, I really mean it.”

That was his way of doubling down — he wasn’t joking, he was promising the fans that the new “Big Three” era (LeBron + Dwyane Wade + Chris Bosh) was built to win multiple championships.

This is wrong, and the reason it's wrong is because this:

Before: He was asked how many championships the team would win.

is wrong. He wasn't asked how many titles Miami would win, but how may he went to Miami to win. Saying one wants to win multiple titles-- something we should frankly expect every player to say-- isn't a promise, guarantee, or prediction.

[michaelm]

Stacking the deck means creating an unfair advantage.

There was nothing unfair about what LeBron did.

Again, learn what these terms mean before you use them.

You're saying nothing of substance except "I'm a LeBron fan and your wrong because I won't accept anything negative about him".

There is literally nothing in this post of substance.

You're talking to a guy who constantly says negative things about LeBron. This argument isn't going to fly.

There was never an NBA finals LeBron went into where his team was head and shoulders better than the competition. Your argument is the one that lacks substance here, not mine.

Imo he has never managed to successfully stack the deck, which is not the same as saying he never tried to do so. He rightly gets much credit at Miami because Wade got injured, and was very definitely the player who deserves the most credit for the first 3 title wins and a considerable amount of the credit for the 4th, although imo AD was pretty much equally responsible for the 4th title.

LeBron partisans complaining about other teams bring stacked is what irks people, certainly me for a start.

[Cavsfansince84]

Imo he has never managed to successfully stack the deck, which is not the same as saying he never tried to do so. He rightly gets much credit at Miami because Wade got injured, and was very definitely the player who deserves the most crefit for the first 3 title wins and a considerable amount of the credit for the 4th, although imo AD was pretty much equally responsible for the 4th title.

LeBron partisans complaining about other teams bring stacked is what irks people, certainly me for a start.

The 08&2010 Celtics were most definitely stacked. They were in 09 as well except KG got injured. They were already stacked just with their big 3 and then even more so with Rondo immediately becoming an impact player on top of a very solid bench. The 17-19 Warriors were also stacked to an absurd degree which does not need elaboration on. Even the 15-16 Warriors were stacked but just not to the degree that it seemed they were unbeatable. Just extremely well put together rosters. LeBron's thinking was that if he gets dinged every single year he doesn't win a ring then he's going to give himself the best chance possible to win rings. Which is how its always been done. Do you think Russell resented Red finding all those great pieces to surround him with? Do you think Steph resented the job Myers did surrounding him? Yet with LeBron its like people want him to have to avg 38/9/9 in order to win which he did against Orl and still lost. You can see why that would get pretty tiresome for LeBron to feel like its stacked against him when he was expected to win 6+ rings from day 1.

[michaelm]

Imo he has never managed to successfully stack the deck, which is not the same as saying he never tried to do so. He rightly gets much credit at Miami because Wade got injured, and was very definitely the player who deserves the most crefit for the first 3 title wins and a considerable amount of the credit for the 4th, although imo AD was pretty much equally responsible for the 4th title.

LeBron partisans complaining about other teams bring stacked is what irks people, certainly me for a start.

The 08&2010 Celtics were most definitely stacked. They were in 09 as well except KG got injured. They were already stacked just with their big 3 and then even more so with Rondo immediately becoming an impact player on top of a very solid bench. The 17-19 Warriors were also stacked to an absurd degree which does not need elaboration on. Even the 15-16 Warriors were stacked but just not to the degree that it seemed they were unbeatable. Just extremely well put together rosters. LeBron's thinking was that if he gets dinged every single year he doesn't win a ring then he's going to give himself the best chance possible to win rings. Which is how its always been done. Do you think Russell resented Red finding all those great pieces to surround him with? Do you think Steph resented the job Myers did surrounding him? Yet with LeBron its like people want him to have to avg 38/9/9 in order to win which he did against Orl and still lost. You can see why that would get pretty tiresome for LeBron to feel like its stacked against him when he was expected to win 6+ rings from day 1.

My point wasn’t that other teams weren’t stacked, just that LeBron tried to do the same, in advance of GSW for one.

I have no problem with LeBron or anyone else trying to be on the best possible team, this is exactly what any player should do imo, not that I have an American perspective on sport.

[JM00n69]

"Everybody know ain't no party like a Diddy party" - LBJ

[Joao Saraiva]

Before joining LA they had the worst record in the NBA since 2013. How is that cherry picking? Cause they got Davis? Well you can't play one on five and win a chip, no matter how good you are.

In Cleveland he just beat a 73 win team in the finals, so the grass was greener elsewhere when he left the Heat.

Yeah with the Heat he did form a big 3, so I'll take it as cherry picked rings, but still difficult ones.

[Iwasawitness]

You're saying nothing of substance except "I'm a LeBron fan and your wrong because I won't accept anything negative about him".

There is literally nothing in this post of substance.

You're talking to a guy who constantly says negative things about LeBron. This argument isn't going to fly.

There was never an NBA finals LeBron went into where his team was head and shoulders better than the competition. Your argument is the one that lacks substance here, not mine.

Imo he has never managed to successfully stack the deck, which is not the same as saying he never tried to do so. He rightly gets much credit at Miami because Wade got injured, and was very definitely the player who deserves the most credit for the first 3 title wins and a considerable amount of the credit for the 4th, although imo AD was pretty much equally responsible for the 4th title.

LeBron partisans complaining about other teams bring stacked is what irks people, certainly me for a start.

Sure, he definitely had intentions to. But the simple fact of the matter is, he didn't, because he doesn't know how to properly put a team together.

No one complains about other teams being stacked, we are simply rightfully pointing it out whenever people say things like "Miami should have won all four years".