More trade value - Camara or Barnes?

[mademan]

This is Barnes and not close. I get that some will have a negative view of Barnes, but his impact states rate him out as a star...he actually has made an all star team and his defense/size/playmaking make him a valuable ancillary player beside an offensive pg - the most ubiquitous thing in the league.

There may be some teams that dont agree, but there would be a few that would pay a real star level price for Barnes and i dont see anyone doing that for Camara.

[One_and_Done]

If you asked the following teams who they would rather add at the minimum, I think it's pretty obvious they would choose Camara; Cleveland, Boston, OKC, Houston, Denver, NY, Indy, Milwaukee, LAC, Minny, GSW, SA, Orlando, Memphis, and more. Any team who is good or serious about winning is taking Camara.

[BlazersBroncos]

This is Barnes and not close. I get that some will have a negative view of Barnes, but his impact states rate him out as a star...he actually has made an all star team and his defense/size/playmaking make him a valuable ancillary player beside an offensive pg - the most ubiquitous thing in the league.

There may be some teams that dont agree, but there would be a few that would pay a real star level price for Barnes and i dont see anyone doing that for Camara.

Coming in peace - but what impact stats rate Barnes as a star?

He has a career PER of 17 - just over the baseline of 'average starter' which is 15
His career WS/48 is .098 - you will be hard pressed to find any players in the 'star' category that post sub .100 WS/48
His ORTG is 112 - quite poor (And last year at 107 he was atrocious)
His DRTG is 113 - solidly middle of the pack (Peaking at 111 as a rookie)
His FTr is .257 - for a non-shooter with his usage you would hope he could be around .3+ here IMO. (Jerami Grant for example is not really known as a elite FT merchant but has a career .38 FTr)
His On/Court +/- per 100 possessions is negative

I understand he has not had a ton of talent around him in TOR, and they have thrown some games for lotto chances along with having alot of injuries. I just dont find many stats that rate him well. Albeit there may be other sources of advanced stats that do.

To me he is a dice roll - a player miscast as a 1/2 in TOR that might be an elite 3. I dont rate him as more than that personally. I think a team valuing Barnes will see him as a connecting #3 option who can be a #2 facilitator but is paid like a 1/2.

[Jojothewhale]

I get that some will have a negative view of Barnes, but his impact states rate him out as a star...

Which impact stats have him as a star? It’s not DARKO or EPM. Both do have him as positive impact, but not anywhere near star level.

[SkyHook]

If you asked the following teams who they would rather add at the minimum, I think it's pretty obvious they would choose Camara; Cleveland, Boston, OKC, Houston, Denver, NY, Indy, Milwaukee, LAC, Minny, GSW, SA, Orlando, Memphis, and more. Any team who is good or serious about winning is taking Camara.

I wouldn't mind the Jazz spending from their trove of draft assets to pick up Camara, even though I'm leery of trading a fortune for a guy right before he can become a FA. Barnes is fine, more than competent defensively, but I worry about his subpar efficiency on the other end that hasn't really improved four years in. He may just be who he is at this point, a chucker.

[hugepatsfan]

This is Barnes and not close. I get that some will have a negative view of Barnes, but his impact states rate him out as a star...he actually has made an all star team and his defense/size/playmaking make him a valuable ancillary player beside an offensive pg - the most ubiquitous thing in the league.

There may be some teams that dont agree, but there would be a few that would pay a real star level price for Barnes and i dont see anyone doing that for Camara.

The problem with Barnes is that he actually doesn’t seem to be a valuable ancillary piece besides an offensive PG or ball handler on general because if he doesn’t have the ball he’s not a positive for you on offense. And he isn’t good enough with the ball to have high level offense run through him. He’s the type of third or fourth tier star you build around if you just want first round playoff exits as a ceiling.

[hugepatsfan]

If you asked the following teams who they would rather add at the minimum, I think it's pretty obvious they would choose Camara; Cleveland, Boston, OKC, Houston, Denver, NY, Indy, Milwaukee, LAC, Minny, GSW, SA, Orlando, Memphis, and more. Any team who is good or serious about winning is taking Camara.

Sure all or most of those teams might want Camara but he’s not good enough where any of them would give up a ton. Barnes, on the other hand, is good enough to be the main guy and elevate a team into the playoffs even if only a first round exit. But that holds value to a lot of teams and would yield a much higher return than anyone would offer for Camara.

[One_and_Done]

If you asked the following teams who they would rather add at the minimum, I think it's pretty obvious they would choose Camara; Cleveland, Boston, OKC, Houston, Denver, NY, Indy, Milwaukee, LAC, Minny, GSW, SA, Orlando, Memphis, and more. Any team who is good or serious about winning is taking Camara.

Sure all or most of those teams might want Camara but he’s not good enough where any of them would give up a ton. Barnes, on the other hand, is good enough to be the main guy and elevate a team into the playoffs even if only a first round exit. But that holds value to a lot of teams and would yield a much higher return than anyone would offer for Camara.

If you're the Chicago Bulls and all you care about is winning 38-42 games each year, then you favour Barnes over Camara. Are many teams that foolhardy though? This isn't 2005, most teams today are competently run.

[basketballwacko2]

You know I like Camara and would like to have him on the Pacers but there is no way he's worth more than Scottie Barnes!!!


Camara might be a better defender and he's a better 3pt shooter but I'll stick with Barnes.

[zimpy27]

Barnes probably fetches a little more but I do think it's close. Barnes hasn't improved his TS since entering the league.

[JRoy]

You know I like Camara and would like to have him on the Pacers but there is no way he's worth more than Scottie Barnes!!!


Camara might be a better defender and he's a better 3pt shooter but I'll stick with Barnes.

2nd team all defense as a second year player.

[Godaddycurse]

You know I like Camara and would like to have him on the Pacers but there is no way he's worth more than Scottie Barnes!!!


Camara might be a better defender and he's a better 3pt shooter but I'll stick with Barnes.

2nd team all defense as a second year player.

His floor is great but i need to see more re: his offensive ceiling. Right now he reminds me of jones/mcdaniels/dort type and i would prefer barnes over those guys

[BlazersBroncos]

You know I like Camara and would like to have him on the Pacers but there is no way he's worth more than Scottie Barnes!!!


Camara might be a better defender and he's a better 3pt shooter but I'll stick with Barnes.

2nd team all defense as a second year player.

His floor is great but i need to see more re: his offensive ceiling. Right now he reminds me of jones/mcdaniels/dort type and i would prefer barnes over those guys

Very valid. Camara has alot to like - defense, IQ, motor, consistently improving 3PT shot, ability to guard from PG to PF. But one thing that is likely, but not guaranteed, to keep him in that Herb / McDaniels / Dort tier is his total lack of a handle. The guy is just not good with the ball in his hands. Unless there is a relatively uncommon improvement w/ his handle he is pretty limited on offense to 3's, transition buckets and cutting to the rim.

[OutsidetheNBA]

The answer here is:

1. Camara has more value across more teams -- i.e. more teams would give up good value in a trade to get him because he fits so well with a lot of rosters.

2. Barnes would fetch more from a couple of teams then Camara would fetch from any team.

In other words, more teams would give up a couple of picks for Camara. But there'd be a Sacramento or a Charlotte or someone else who would love Barnes and pay more than any team would pay for Camara.

[One_and_Done]

The answer here is:

1. Camara has more value across more teams -- i.e. more teams would give up good value in a trade to get him because he fits so well with a lot of rosters.

2. Barnes would fetch more from a couple of teams then Camara would fetch from any team.

In other words, more teams would give up a couple of picks for Camara. But there'd be a Sacramento or a Charlotte or someone else who would love Barnes and pay more than any team would pay for Camara.

I'm not sure 'a horribly run team would pay more for Barnes' is a great argument that he has more value, when those teams are few and far between. Shouldn't we focus on who is actually more valuable, rather than whether there is one idiot out there who would overpay?

[Devilanche]

The answer here is:

1. Camara has more value across more teams -- i.e. more teams would give up good value in a trade to get him because he fits so well with a lot of rosters.

2. Barnes would fetch more from a couple of teams then Camara would fetch from any team.

In other words, more teams would give up a couple of picks for Camara. But there'd be a Sacramento or a Charlotte or someone else who would love Barnes and pay more than any team would pay for Camara.

I'm not sure 'a horribly run team would pay more for Barnes' is a great argument that he has more value, when those teams are few and far between. Shouldn't we focus on who is actually more valuable, rather than whether there is one idiot out there who would overpay?

Question is who would have more trade value.

If 3 teams would pay 3 first for Barnes that’s his value .
If 10 teams would pay 2 first for Camara that’s his value.

[JB2]

Is Camara's value only 2 1sts as it seems to be continually mentioned here?

Perhaps that answer lies in the level of protections - I'd argue there should be none at all. Zero. And a swap or two.

[JRoy]

Is Camara's value only 2 1sts as it seems to be continually mentioned here?

Feels light.

Not all FRP are created equal.

Would have to see package up decide.

2 unprotected FRP from an aging team without high level talent might appeal.

2 OKC picks, pass.

[Godaddycurse]

I would actually argue that camara has less of a market than Barnes. To me camara is best suited for contenders whose top 3 players are set and need that one extra defender to match up in playoffs, so its ok to spend couple firsts for Camara (ie caruso to okc). Doesnt make sense for rest of the teams to pay couple firsts for the cheap year(s) of camara now before they are ready to contend (ie how herb jones and OG's cheap years were wasted)

Typically though you dont see contending teams with excess of firsts to trade (LAL/DEN/LAC/CLE) etc are all in big pick deficits, hence he has a smaller market.

[JRoy]

OKC has picks and then some.

They are the exception.