Draymond Green is underrated

[dhsilv2]

No, it shows 1) he just hasn't consistently been near the top and 2) that when he was it was almost a decade ago

Off the top of my head, I'd tell you that in the last ~decade, the top assist guys have largely been Trae Young, Luka Doncic, Jokic, Westbrook, C Paul, LeBron, Rondo, Rubio, Haliburton, Harden, Lillard, John Wall....etc guys like that.

Even if I'd kept it to big men, I'd have said the top 5 have been Jokic, Sabonis, Ben Simmons, Giannis, and maybe Lamar Odom?

In any case, Green's rough average is ~15th in assists and ~30th in rebounds.

Let's see steals now:

14-15: 21st
15'-16': 27th
16'-17': 1st
17'-18': 28th
18'-19': 21st
19'-20': 17th
20-21: 4th
21-22: 19th
22-23: 56th
23-24: 49th
24-25: 16th

So again, 2 years in the top-5, 5 years in the top-20; So again, not even half the years (11 years total) has he been in the top-20. Rough average there of ~25th in steals.

Should we be expecting a guy who's 35 to still be at the top? Obviously this discussion is about his career as a whole and his best years. Jordan was terrible when he was on the Wizards. Doesn't mean we change how we talk about him either.

Edit

Remember you're the guy who's called Klay a star, who's finished 10th once in PPG and in no other major category.

I literally have omitted Green's 1st 2 years and looked at his career from age 24-36 or so. My point this entire time has been that Green has WAY MORE years as an undecorated role player than the 3-year peak you center on. 3 years is not a career. 3 years is an aberration when we're talking a 13-year career that will likely be 15-16 years once he actually retires. And we've seen stars be very good at Green's age, like Steph, Durant, LeBron, Chris Paul, Westbrook...etc.

As for Thompson, there are levels to stars. And as I explained in excruciating detail, he's Dan Majerle or Peja if he never plays for the Warriors. Part of the reason Thompson is held in such high consideration is because of his team success. Yes, he'd still be one of the greatest shooters of all time and he'd have a been a good (not great) scorer in the NBA regardless of where he played. But you'd basically have Zach Lavine with better defense. And we already know what you think of Lavine.

We can't say the same thing for Green necessarily. His output has been pretty uneventful over the majority of his career. Even at his 3-year peak, his numbers are pedestrian relative to stars (these are rough estimates): 12ppg 7apg 8 rpg 1.7 steals 1.4 bpg 44 fg% 33 3pt%.

As a point of comparison, I'll use Bam Adebayo and JJJ, who I consider tier 3 stars.

If we take Bam's last 6 years (his peak so far), we'd roughly get: 19ppg 9rpg 4apg .8 bpg 1.2 spg 53 fg% (he only just started shooting a relevant number of 3s last year, so this stat is useless for now).

If we take Jackson's last 4 seasons, we'd roughly get: 19ppg 6rpg 1.5apg 2bpg 1spg 45 fg% 33 3pt %

So you have a very comparable defenders to Green, but you get so much more production on the offensive end. And accordingly, both Adebayo and Jackson have gotten big-time star money

Klay fits the definition, you've set out, for a role player. He cannot create for himself like Thunder Dan or Peja. Peja for crying out loud peaked as an MVP candidate. Klay is a 3 and D guy. His high scoring was the result of playing with two actual stars in Draymond and Curry.

You keep wanting to go back to these per game stats but lets focus on aggregate stats so we don't have type so much.

Lets use 2015-2019 since that's their 5 year finals run.

BPM 3.7 vs 1.2
VORP 17.6 vs 10.6
PER 16.4 vs 17.9
WS/48 .151 vs 0.127
WS 38.2 vs 34.1

Playoffs - when the games get more important

BPM 5.0 vs 0.9
VORP 6.9 vs 2.8
PER 17.1 vs 14.8
WS/48 0.157 vs 0.100
WS 12.8 vs 7.9

So if you want to make an argument about their box score metrics, during their prime. There is no actual argument between the better box score guy. It's Dray and it's not close.

If you really break down Klay's stats, he really only had 1 really strong year despite being 3rd team ALL NBA twice. It was 2015 and you can argue that would at best, just talking box score, but Dray's 4th best season. Beyond 2015 there's really not even a good argument for Klay to be an allstar, beyond being on the warriors. Dray's stats by contrast are while not conventional with higher PPG, very much are in alignment with the kinds of BPM's and WS/48's we'd expect to see from an allstar.

What's far more telling of who's a star and who's not here. Dray's stats all go up in the playoffs while Klays all drop off in the playoffs.

For scale a 5.0 BPM which draymond had over 104 playoff games (which is a massive sample) is just below what Tatum did this season and significantly better than ANT this year.

So again, if you want to argue about box score stats. Dray had better box score stats over the warrior's 5 year run than Klay and it was significant. He then upped them significantly more in the playoffs while Klay's stats fell.

I'm not even going to bother with impact stats since they only make this gap more laughable.

You can't keep setting up criteria like "top 5 or 10 in categories" and then when it's pointed out guys you've called stars and better then dray, don't meet those criteria and blow it off.

And I know you don't think defense is part of basketball, but lets just keep in mind only 13 players ever have 9 or more all defensive team selections. The only two not in the hall are Dray and CP3 who will both be in there on the first ballot. So while you can try and argue that Dray was only a star 4 of his however many years. Keep in mind despite obviously coasting during the seasons during his 6 NBA finals runs, he was still good enough to make 9 defensive teams with the voters that you love to bring up.

[SA37]

Spoiler:

Should we be expecting a guy who's 35 to still be at the top? Obviously this discussion is about his career as a whole and his best years. Jordan was terrible when he was on the Wizards. Doesn't mean we change how we talk about him either.

Edit

Remember you're the guy who's called Klay a star, who's finished 10th once in PPG and in no other major category.

I literally have omitted Green's 1st 2 years and looked at his career from age 24-36 or so. My point this entire time has been that Green has WAY MORE years as an undecorated role player than the 3-year peak you center on. 3 years is not a career. 3 years is an aberration when we're talking a 13-year career that will likely be 15-16 years once he actually retires. And we've seen stars be very good at Green's age, like Steph, Durant, LeBron, Chris Paul, Westbrook...etc.

As for Thompson, there are levels to stars. And as I explained in excruciating detail, he's Dan Majerle or Peja if he never plays for the Warriors. Part of the reason Thompson is held in such high consideration is because of his team success. Yes, he'd still be one of the greatest shooters of all time and he'd have a been a good (not great) scorer in the NBA regardless of where he played. But you'd basically have Zach Lavine with better defense. And we already know what you think of Lavine.

We can't say the same thing for Green necessarily. His output has been pretty uneventful over the majority of his career. Even at his 3-year peak, his numbers are pedestrian relative to stars (these are rough estimates): 12ppg 7apg 8 rpg 1.7 steals 1.4 bpg 44 fg% 33 3pt%.

As a point of comparison, I'll use Bam Adebayo and JJJ, who I consider tier 3 stars.

If we take Bam's last 6 years (his peak so far), we'd roughly get: 19ppg 9rpg 4apg .8 bpg 1.2 spg 53 fg% (he only just started shooting a relevant number of 3s last year, so this stat is useless for now).

If we take Jackson's last 4 seasons, we'd roughly get: 19ppg 6rpg 1.5apg 2bpg 1spg 45 fg% 33 3pt %

So you have a very comparable defenders to Green, but you get so much more production on the offensive end. And accordingly, both Adebayo and Jackson have gotten big-time star money

Klay fits the definition, you've set out, for a role player. He cannot create for himself like Thunder Dan or Peja. Peja for crying out loud peaked as an MVP candidate. Klay is a 3 and D guy. His high scoring was the result of playing with two actual stars in Draymond and Curry.

You keep wanting to go back to these per game stats but lets focus on aggregate stats so we don't have type so much.

Lets use 2015-2019 since that's their 5 year finals run.

BPM 3.7 vs 1.2
VORP 17.6 vs 10.6
PER 16.4 vs 17.9
WS/48 .151 vs 0.127
WS 38.2 vs 34.1

Playoffs - when the games get more important

BPM 5.0 vs 0.9
VORP 6.9 vs 2.8
PER 17.1 vs 14.8
WS/48 0.157 vs 0.100
WS 12.8 vs 7.9

So if you want to make an argument about their box score metrics, during their prime. There is no actual argument between the better box score guy. It's Dray and it's not close.

If you really break down Klay's stats, he really only had 1 really strong year despite being 3rd team ALL NBA twice. It was 2015 and you can argue that would at best, just talking box score, but Dray's 4th best season. Beyond 2015 there's really not even a good argument for Klay to be an allstar, beyond being on the warriors. Dray's stats by contrast are while not conventional with higher PPG, very much are in alignment with the kinds of BPM's and WS/48's we'd expect to see from an allstar.

What's far more telling of who's a star and who's not here. Dray's stats all go up in the playoffs while Klays all drop off in the playoffs.

For scale a 5.0 BPM which draymond had over 104 playoff games (which is a massive sample) is just below what Tatum did this season and significantly better than ANT this year.

So again, if you want to argue about box score stats. Dray had better box score stats over the warrior's 5 year run than Klay and it was significant. He then upped them significantly more in the playoffs while Klay's stats fell.

I'm not even going to bother with impact stats since they only make this gap more laughable.

You can't keep setting up criteria like "top 5 or 10 in categories" and then when it's pointed out guys you've called stars and better then dray, don't meet those criteria and blow it off.

And I know you don't think defense is part of basketball, but lets just keep in mind only 13 players ever have 9 or more all defensive team selections. The only two not in the hall are Dray and CP3 who will both be in there on the first ballot. So while you can try and argue that Dray was only a star 4 of his however many years. Keep in mind despite obviously coasting during the seasons during his 6 NBA finals runs, he was still good enough to make 9 defensive teams with the voters that you love to bring up.

Like I said, the only people who love and defend Green to this level are data lovers who think they understand something people don't with alternative stats to the ones that have been used forever. What has been voted (or not voted), counting stats, all-star selections, all-NBA selections...etc those don't matter. That's for casuals.

In the end, that is what this comes down to.

Those who don't fall for it, would likely run out a team like the one you'd find on an all-NBA team:

Jokic
Giannis
Tatum
Edwards
SGA

While the advanced stats guys would roll out a team that looked more like an all-defensive team:

Gobert
D Green
Siakam
D White
J Holiday

And the former would destroy the latter.

[WolfAddict]

Stop worrying about biased publications and start worrying about what are the top players a team wanted to have on their team to win a ring. This is the only that matters in the end. Iguodala is another one of those players on the Warriors where his impact was greater than his stats. So many players put up empty stats and sh** their pants in crunch time, but you'd label them as "stars" because of a nerd putting together a list on a website and because they scored more points. Basketball is a game where someone can dominate in multiple ways, not just scoring. Draymond has been historically DOMINANT on defense (up there with Pippen, Rodman, GP1, Mutombo, etc.), elite as playmaking, and elite at things you don't even see happening on the court because you're too busy tracking how many points someone inefficiently scored.

Calm down Dray...

Awww are your feelings hurt?

I have 5 kids... I have no feelings sweet cheeks

[floppymoose]

If we are using a metrics based approach, rapm is the best way i know to judge Draymond's value. And he has been a top 10 player in the league by that scale for many of his years playing.

3y rapm league rank. (source: https://www.nbarapm.com/player/Draymond_Green)

Code: Select all

2014    28
2015    7
2016    3
2017    3
2018    7
2019    18
2020    33
2021    19
2022    38
2023    16
2024    11
2025    3

5 years in top 10, 9 years in top 20.

[dhsilv2]

Spoiler:

I literally have omitted Green's 1st 2 years and looked at his career from age 24-36 or so. My point this entire time has been that Green has WAY MORE years as an undecorated role player than the 3-year peak you center on. 3 years is not a career. 3 years is an aberration when we're talking a 13-year career that will likely be 15-16 years once he actually retires. And we've seen stars be very good at Green's age, like Steph, Durant, LeBron, Chris Paul, Westbrook...etc.

As for Thompson, there are levels to stars. And as I explained in excruciating detail, he's Dan Majerle or Peja if he never plays for the Warriors. Part of the reason Thompson is held in such high consideration is because of his team success. Yes, he'd still be one of the greatest shooters of all time and he'd have a been a good (not great) scorer in the NBA regardless of where he played. But you'd basically have Zach Lavine with better defense. And we already know what you think of Lavine.

We can't say the same thing for Green necessarily. His output has been pretty uneventful over the majority of his career. Even at his 3-year peak, his numbers are pedestrian relative to stars (these are rough estimates): 12ppg 7apg 8 rpg 1.7 steals 1.4 bpg 44 fg% 33 3pt%.

As a point of comparison, I'll use Bam Adebayo and JJJ, who I consider tier 3 stars.

If we take Bam's last 6 years (his peak so far), we'd roughly get: 19ppg 9rpg 4apg .8 bpg 1.2 spg 53 fg% (he only just started shooting a relevant number of 3s last year, so this stat is useless for now).

If we take Jackson's last 4 seasons, we'd roughly get: 19ppg 6rpg 1.5apg 2bpg 1spg 45 fg% 33 3pt %

So you have a very comparable defenders to Green, but you get so much more production on the offensive end. And accordingly, both Adebayo and Jackson have gotten big-time star money

Klay fits the definition, you've set out, for a role player. He cannot create for himself like Thunder Dan or Peja. Peja for crying out loud peaked as an MVP candidate. Klay is a 3 and D guy. His high scoring was the result of playing with two actual stars in Draymond and Curry.

You keep wanting to go back to these per game stats but lets focus on aggregate stats so we don't have type so much.

Lets use 2015-2019 since that's their 5 year finals run.

BPM 3.7 vs 1.2
VORP 17.6 vs 10.6
PER 16.4 vs 17.9
WS/48 .151 vs 0.127
WS 38.2 vs 34.1

Playoffs - when the games get more important

BPM 5.0 vs 0.9
VORP 6.9 vs 2.8
PER 17.1 vs 14.8
WS/48 0.157 vs 0.100
WS 12.8 vs 7.9

So if you want to make an argument about their box score metrics, during their prime. There is no actual argument between the better box score guy. It's Dray and it's not close.

If you really break down Klay's stats, he really only had 1 really strong year despite being 3rd team ALL NBA twice. It was 2015 and you can argue that would at best, just talking box score, but Dray's 4th best season. Beyond 2015 there's really not even a good argument for Klay to be an allstar, beyond being on the warriors. Dray's stats by contrast are while not conventional with higher PPG, very much are in alignment with the kinds of BPM's and WS/48's we'd expect to see from an allstar.

What's far more telling of who's a star and who's not here. Dray's stats all go up in the playoffs while Klays all drop off in the playoffs.

For scale a 5.0 BPM which draymond had over 104 playoff games (which is a massive sample) is just below what Tatum did this season and significantly better than ANT this year.

So again, if you want to argue about box score stats. Dray had better box score stats over the warrior's 5 year run than Klay and it was significant. He then upped them significantly more in the playoffs while Klay's stats fell.

I'm not even going to bother with impact stats since they only make this gap more laughable.

You can't keep setting up criteria like "top 5 or 10 in categories" and then when it's pointed out guys you've called stars and better then dray, don't meet those criteria and blow it off.

And I know you don't think defense is part of basketball, but lets just keep in mind only 13 players ever have 9 or more all defensive team selections. The only two not in the hall are Dray and CP3 who will both be in there on the first ballot. So while you can try and argue that Dray was only a star 4 of his however many years. Keep in mind despite obviously coasting during the seasons during his 6 NBA finals runs, he was still good enough to make 9 defensive teams with the voters that you love to bring up.

Like I said, the only people who love and defend Green to this level are data lovers who think they understand something people don't with alternative stats to the ones that have been used forever. What has been voted (or not voted), counting stats, all-star selections, all-NBA selections...etc those don't matter. That's for casuals.

In the end, that is what this comes down to.

Those who don't fall for it, would likely run out a team like the one you'd find on an all-NBA team:

Jokic
Giannis
Tatum
Edwards
SGA

While the advanced stats guys would roll out a team that looked more like an all-defensive team:

Gobert
D Green
Siakam
D White
J Holiday

And the former would destroy the latter.

The voters clearly have voted more for Dray than Klay, it's why Dray got more votes in both his all nba selections than Klay.

Nobody would run out that second team. Jokic is the king of data nerd love btw.

This isn't some weird "I know more because I graduated high school math". Even your own criteria would show Dray was better.

[SA37]

Spoiler:

Klay fits the definition, you've set out, for a role player. He cannot create for himself like Thunder Dan or Peja. Peja for crying out loud peaked as an MVP candidate. Klay is a 3 and D guy. His high scoring was the result of playing with two actual stars in Draymond and Curry.

You keep wanting to go back to these per game stats but lets focus on aggregate stats so we don't have type so much.

Lets use 2015-2019 since that's their 5 year finals run.

BPM 3.7 vs 1.2
VORP 17.6 vs 10.6
PER 16.4 vs 17.9
WS/48 .151 vs 0.127
WS 38.2 vs 34.1

Playoffs - when the games get more important

BPM 5.0 vs 0.9
VORP 6.9 vs 2.8
PER 17.1 vs 14.8
WS/48 0.157 vs 0.100
WS 12.8 vs 7.9

So if you want to make an argument about their box score metrics, during their prime. There is no actual argument between the better box score guy. It's Dray and it's not close.

If you really break down Klay's stats, he really only had 1 really strong year despite being 3rd team ALL NBA twice. It was 2015 and you can argue that would at best, just talking box score, but Dray's 4th best season. Beyond 2015 there's really not even a good argument for Klay to be an allstar, beyond being on the warriors. Dray's stats by contrast are while not conventional with higher PPG, very much are in alignment with the kinds of BPM's and WS/48's we'd expect to see from an allstar.

What's far more telling of who's a star and who's not here. Dray's stats all go up in the playoffs while Klays all drop off in the playoffs.

For scale a 5.0 BPM which draymond had over 104 playoff games (which is a massive sample) is just below what Tatum did this season and significantly better than ANT this year.

So again, if you want to argue about box score stats. Dray had better box score stats over the warrior's 5 year run than Klay and it was significant. He then upped them significantly more in the playoffs while Klay's stats fell.

I'm not even going to bother with impact stats since they only make this gap more laughable.

You can't keep setting up criteria like "top 5 or 10 in categories" and then when it's pointed out guys you've called stars and better then dray, don't meet those criteria and blow it off.

And I know you don't think defense is part of basketball, but lets just keep in mind only 13 players ever have 9 or more all defensive team selections. The only two not in the hall are Dray and CP3 who will both be in there on the first ballot. So while you can try and argue that Dray was only a star 4 of his however many years. Keep in mind despite obviously coasting during the seasons during his 6 NBA finals runs, he was still good enough to make 9 defensive teams with the voters that you love to bring up.

Like I said, the only people who love and defend Green to this level are data lovers who think they understand something people don't with alternative stats to the ones that have been used forever. What has been voted (or not voted), counting stats, all-star selections, all-NBA selections...etc those don't matter. That's for casuals.

In the end, that is what this comes down to.

Those who don't fall for it, would likely run out a team like the one you'd find on an all-NBA team:

Jokic
Giannis
Tatum
Edwards
SGA

While the advanced stats guys would roll out a team that looked more like an all-defensive team:

Gobert
D Green
Siakam
D White
J Holiday

And the former would destroy the latter.

The voters clearly have voted more for Dray than Klay, it's why Dray got more votes in both his all nba selections than Klay.

Nobody would run out that second team. Jokic is the king of data nerd love btw.

This isn't some weird "I know more because I graduated high school math". Even your own criteria would show Dray was better.

I don't have an issue if some people prefer Green over Thompson. My take is Klay was a more important, harder to replace player than Green. Were it not for his injuries, I think Thompson gets 2-3 more all-star games and possibly another all-NBA selection or two (over Simmons in 19-20 and over Beal in 20-21). That's a what-if and not provable, but I think it is more likely than not.

I get a lot of people -- yourself included -- don't agree, but it's my opinion.

[One Last Shot]

Spoiler:

Like I said, the only people who love and defend Green to this level are data lovers who think they understand something people don't with alternative stats to the ones that have been used forever. What has been voted (or not voted), counting stats, all-star selections, all-NBA selections...etc those don't matter. That's for casuals.

In the end, that is what this comes down to.

Those who don't fall for it, would likely run out a team like the one you'd find on an all-NBA team:

Jokic
Giannis
Tatum
Edwards
SGA

While the advanced stats guys would roll out a team that looked more like an all-defensive team:

Gobert
D Green
Siakam
D White
J Holiday

And the former would destroy the latter.

The voters clearly have voted more for Dray than Klay, it's why Dray got more votes in both his all nba selections than Klay.

Nobody would run out that second team. Jokic is the king of data nerd love btw.

This isn't some weird "I know more because I graduated high school math". Even your own criteria would show Dray was better.

I don't have an issue if some people prefer Green over Thompson. My take is Klay was a more important, harder to replace player than Green. Were it not for his injuries, I think Thompson gets 2-3 more all-star games and possibly another all-NBA selection or two (over Simmons in 19-20 and over Beal in 20-21). That's a what-if and not provable, but I think it is more likely than not.

I get a lot of people -- yourself included -- don't agree, but it's my opinion.

Draymond is the defensive anchor of a dynasty who won 4 NBA titles and made 6 NBA Finals in 8 years while being their best playmaker. I don't think there's anyone in the league with the exception of LeBron who can replace what he provided in Warriors dynasty, he's almost as important defensively as Steph in offense and I think he's their vocal leader in their squad. There's a decent chance prime Middleton or Danny Green capable to replace Klay's spot in that dynasty in my opinion but the trio of Klay/Dray/Steph as a whole is greater than the sum of its parts. One of the best dynasty ever and very fun to watch and I honestly believe that if LeBron 2016 didn't exist, they are capable to win atleast 4+ straight NBA titles and might be better dynasty than the Bulls without the need to beg for KD to join their team.

[SpreeS]

If we are using a metrics based approach, rapm is the best way i know to judge Draymond's value. And he has been a top 10 player in the league by that scale for many of his years playing.

3y rapm league rank. (source: https://www.nbarapm.com/player/Draymond_Green)

Code: Select all

2014    28
2015    7
2016    3
2017    3
2018    7
2019    18
2020    33
2021    19
2022    38
2023    16
2024    11
2025    3

5 years in top 10, 9 years in top 20.

Ray Allen def rapm rank (4y)

2007 31y 616th
2008 32y 575th
2009 33y 551th
2010 34y 342th
2011 35y 164th
2012 36y 178th
2013 37y 593th

So tell me how Ray Allen became way better defender at 35/36y old than 31y old.

Green off ramp (4y) went from 54th in 2019 to 327th in 2020 and back to 126th in 2021.

Theses metrics are heavily based on units for starters and role players. For elite defensive or offensive players is good metric, but only for one end of the floor. We see clearly that Green is elite on DEF and Curry is elite on OFF with RAMP data, but other side of the floor ramp data is affected by teammates a lot.

Even with Lebron def ramp we could see some correction before Davis 2018/2019, with Davis 2020/2024 and after Davis 2025. He didnt become better defender at 35/39y old than 33/34y and suddenly back to 33/34y level on def w/o Davis this year.

2018 134th
2019 121th
2020 44th
2021 42th
2022 32th
2023 54th
2024 74th
2025 198th

[dhsilv2]

Spoiler:

Like I said, the only people who love and defend Green to this level are data lovers who think they understand something people don't with alternative stats to the ones that have been used forever. What has been voted (or not voted), counting stats, all-star selections, all-NBA selections...etc those don't matter. That's for casuals.

In the end, that is what this comes down to.

Those who don't fall for it, would likely run out a team like the one you'd find on an all-NBA team:

Jokic
Giannis
Tatum
Edwards
SGA

While the advanced stats guys would roll out a team that looked more like an all-defensive team:

Gobert
D Green
Siakam
D White
J Holiday

And the former would destroy the latter.

The voters clearly have voted more for Dray than Klay, it's why Dray got more votes in both his all nba selections than Klay.

Nobody would run out that second team. Jokic is the king of data nerd love btw.

This isn't some weird "I know more because I graduated high school math". Even your own criteria would show Dray was better.

I don't have an issue if some people prefer Green over Thompson. My take is Klay was a more important, harder to replace player than Green. Were it not for his injuries, I think Thompson gets 2-3 more all-star games and possibly another all-NBA selection or two (over Simmons in 19-20 and over Beal in 20-21). That's a what-if and not provable, but I think it is more likely than not.

I get a lot of people -- yourself included -- don't agree, but it's my opinion.

Ignoring Klay was clearly in decline in 2019, he could have easily been replaced by someone like Danny Green. You've already clearly stated you agree that without Dray the Warrior's would have to change up their entire system. Once again your own words don't align with what you're stating.

[dhsilv2]

If we are using a metrics based approach, rapm is the best way i know to judge Draymond's value. And he has been a top 10 player in the league by that scale for many of his years playing.

3y rapm league rank. (source: https://www.nbarapm.com/player/Draymond_Green)

Code: Select all

2014    28
2015    7
2016    3
2017    3
2018    7
2019    18
2020    33
2021    19
2022    38
2023    16
2024    11
2025    3

5 years in top 10, 9 years in top 20.

Ray Allen def rapm rank (4y)

2007 31y 616th
2008 32y 575th
2009 33y 551th
2010 34y 342th
2011 35y 164th
2012 36y 178th
2013 37y 593th

So tell me how Ray Allen became way better defender at 35/36y old than 31y old.

Green off ramp (4y) went from 54th in 2019 to 327th in 2020 and back to 126th in 2021.

Theses metrics are heavily based on units for starters and role players. For elite defensive or offensive players is good metric, but only for one end of the floor. We see clearly that Green is elite on DEF and Curry is elite on OFF with RAMP data, but other side of the floor ramp data is affected by teammates a lot.

Even with Lebron def ramp we could see some correction before Davis 2018/2019, with Davis 2020/2024 and after Davis 2025. He didnt become better defender at 35/39y old than 33/34y and suddenly back to 33/34y level on def w/o Davis this year.

2018 134th
2019 121th
2020 44th
2021 42th
2022 32th
2023 54th
2024 74th
2025 198th

RAPM is more accurate than the O or D version. This is critically important when using these metrics.

Now with Ray Allen, yes I'm sure being with defensive teammates made his defense better. Meaning his role got smaller and more defined. He also had less offensive load to deal with.

Now that said, yeah I do think Ray was a better defender after he had bone spurs removed in 2007 which had been bothering him in 2006 and 2007. The two years his defense fell off a cliff. The 3 year RAPM is just not showing how big a spike happened once he was healthy with how it's smoothing the data. Not sure Ray's our best example given that.

[SA37]

The voters clearly have voted more for Dray than Klay, it's why Dray got more votes in both his all nba selections than Klay.

Nobody would run out that second team. Jokic is the king of data nerd love btw.

This isn't some weird "I know more because I graduated high school math". Even your own criteria would show Dray was better.

I don't have an issue if some people prefer Green over Thompson. My take is Klay was a more important, harder to replace player than Green. Were it not for his injuries, I think Thompson gets 2-3 more all-star games and possibly another all-NBA selection or two (over Simmons in 19-20 and over Beal in 20-21). That's a what-if and not provable, but I think it is more likely than not.

I get a lot of people -- yourself included -- don't agree, but it's my opinion.

Draymond is the defensive anchor of a dynasty who won 4 NBA titles and made 6 NBA Finals in 8 years while being their best playmaker. I don't think there's anyone in the league with the exception of LeBron who can replace what he provided in Warriors dynasty, he's almost as important defensively as Steph in offense and I think he's their vocal leader in their squad. There's a decent chance prime Middleton or Danny Green capable to replace Klay's spot in that dynasty in my opinion but the trio of Klay/Dray/Steph as a whole is greater than the sum of its parts. One of the best dynasty ever and very fun to watch and I honestly believe that if LeBron 2016 didn't exist, they are capable to win atleast 4+ straight NBA titles and might be better dynasty than the Bulls without the need to beg for KD to join their team.

And the OP was worried Green was underrated

[dhsilv2]

I don't have an issue if some people prefer Green over Thompson. My take is Klay was a more important, harder to replace player than Green. Were it not for his injuries, I think Thompson gets 2-3 more all-star games and possibly another all-NBA selection or two (over Simmons in 19-20 and over Beal in 20-21). That's a what-if and not provable, but I think it is more likely than not.

I get a lot of people -- yourself included -- don't agree, but it's my opinion.

Draymond is the defensive anchor of a dynasty who won 4 NBA titles and made 6 NBA Finals in 8 years while being their best playmaker. I don't think there's anyone in the league with the exception of LeBron who can replace what he provided in Warriors dynasty, he's almost as important defensively as Steph in offense and I think he's their vocal leader in their squad. There's a decent chance prime Middleton or Danny Green capable to replace Klay's spot in that dynasty in my opinion but the trio of Klay/Dray/Steph as a whole is greater than the sum of its parts. One of the best dynasty ever and very fun to watch and I honestly believe that if LeBron 2016 didn't exist, they are capable to win atleast 4+ straight NBA titles and might be better dynasty than the Bulls without the need to beg for KD to join their team.

And the OP was worried Green was underrated

By all means...give us someone who could run Dray's role. You yourself have said the warrior's would have to change their system without him.

[SA37]

The voters clearly have voted more for Dray than Klay, it's why Dray got more votes in both his all nba selections than Klay.

Nobody would run out that second team. Jokic is the king of data nerd love btw.

This isn't some weird "I know more because I graduated high school math". Even your own criteria would show Dray was better.

I don't have an issue if some people prefer Green over Thompson. My take is Klay was a more important, harder to replace player than Green. Were it not for his injuries, I think Thompson gets 2-3 more all-star games and possibly another all-NBA selection or two (over Simmons in 19-20 and over Beal in 20-21). That's a what-if and not provable, but I think it is more likely than not.

I get a lot of people -- yourself included -- don't agree, but it's my opinion.

Ignoring Klay was clearly in decline in 2019, he could have easily been replaced by someone like Danny Green. You've already clearly stated you agree that without Dray the Warrior's would have to change up their entire system. Once again your own words don't align with what you're stating.

Disagree he could have been replaced with Danny Green. IMO, that's just a wildly ignorant statement.

You remove any of the 3 and system doesn't work at a championship level. We saw this when Thompson and Curry were out with injuries and Draymond Green was left on his own. We've seen it when Thompson left (replaced ostensibly by a rotating combo of Buddy Hield, Podzeimski, and Moses Moody) and Steph and Draymond were left on their own. Shockingly, Golden St didn't go hunting for a Danny Green-like player; they decided to go hunting for Durant and eventually traded for Butler.

[SA37]

Draymond is the defensive anchor of a dynasty who won 4 NBA titles and made 6 NBA Finals in 8 years while being their best playmaker. I don't think there's anyone in the league with the exception of LeBron who can replace what he provided in Warriors dynasty, he's almost as important defensively as Steph in offense and I think he's their vocal leader in their squad. There's a decent chance prime Middleton or Danny Green capable to replace Klay's spot in that dynasty in my opinion but the trio of Klay/Dray/Steph as a whole is greater than the sum of its parts. One of the best dynasty ever and very fun to watch and I honestly believe that if LeBron 2016 didn't exist, they are capable to win atleast 4+ straight NBA titles and might be better dynasty than the Bulls without the need to beg for KD to join their team.

And the OP was worried Green was underrated

By all means...give us someone who could run Dray's role. You yourself have said the warrior's would have to change their system without him.

I think guys like Joakim Noah, Marc Gasol, Paul Millsap, Al Horford, or Chris Bosh could have filled in for Green and provided a lot of what Green provided without having to change the offense much. Defensively they would not have provided the versatility Green offers, but offensively and on the boards (Noah and Bosh)they would have been an upgrade, especially Millsap (offense) and Bosh (offense and boards).

[dhsilv2]

I don't have an issue if some people prefer Green over Thompson. My take is Klay was a more important, harder to replace player than Green. Were it not for his injuries, I think Thompson gets 2-3 more all-star games and possibly another all-NBA selection or two (over Simmons in 19-20 and over Beal in 20-21). That's a what-if and not provable, but I think it is more likely than not.

I get a lot of people -- yourself included -- don't agree, but it's my opinion.

Ignoring Klay was clearly in decline in 2019, he could have easily been replaced by someone like Danny Green. You've already clearly stated you agree that without Dray the Warrior's would have to change up their entire system. Once again your own words don't align with what you're stating.

Disagree he could have been replaced with Danny Green. IMO, that's just a wildly ignorant statement.

You remove any of the 3 and system doesn't work at a championship level. We saw this when Thompson and Curry were out with injuries and Draymond Green was left on his own. We've seen it when Thompson left (replaced ostensibly by a rotating combo of Buddy Hield, Podzeimski, and Moses Moody) and Steph and Draymond were left on their own. Shockingly, Golden St didn't go hunting for a Danny Green-like player; they decided to go hunting for Durant and eventually traded for Butler.

Green absolutely could replace Klay. He has the exact same skillset, only he's a better defender and a slightly less reliable shooter. In terms of what Klay actually brings Green creates nearly identical gravity towards the 3 point line and has proven he can do this on multiple championship teams, even doing it in a very similar offense to what Kerr runs for the warriors. He even had multiple big scoring games in the finals. This is a guy who's literally played the Klay role in the finals. This isn't even a difficult one to see.

Using a year Dray was clearly hurt and struggling to play more than 10 games in a row, when you've been give better examples of Dray without Curry stepping up is getting just silly man. This is at best now reaching the point of insanity as everyone here has disagreed with this point or it's just sheer dishonesty to paint the picture YOU want without looking at the facts of the situation. Using an injury plagued year to make a point is just downright dishonest.

As Green. Have we not covered there's nobody like him? You yourself have said this. They went and got a replacement for Klay because they're abundant.

[dhsilv2]

And the OP was worried Green was underrated

By all means...give us someone who could run Dray's role. You yourself have said the warrior's would have to change their system without him.

I think guys like Joakim Noah, Marc Gasol, Paul Millsap, Al Horford, or Chris Bosh could have filled in for Green and provided a lot of what Green provided without having to change the offense much. Defensively they would not have provided the versatility Green offers, but offensively and on the boards (Noah and Bosh)they would have been an upgrade, especially Millsap (offense) and Bosh (offense and boards).

Noah maybe...but you've already now removed the small ball game with these guys. Now longer would you have those warrior 3rd quarters where they ran teams off the floor with smaller faster lineups. So not really the same at all. That's just offense, as you seem to already get that it would change their defense which is the foundation of the warrior's.

Also, I gave you Danny Green who could just in real time have moved over. These guy's careers in terms of when they could do this wouldn't align. You can't just take the 2015 version of these guys and move them over to the warriors, showing all the more difficulty of this exercise.

[SA37]

Ignoring Klay was clearly in decline in 2019, he could have easily been replaced by someone like Danny Green. You've already clearly stated you agree that without Dray the Warrior's would have to change up their entire system. Once again your own words don't align with what you're stating.

Disagree he could have been replaced with Danny Green. IMO, that's just a wildly ignorant statement.

You remove any of the 3 and system doesn't work at a championship level. We saw this when Thompson and Curry were out with injuries and Draymond Green was left on his own. We've seen it when Thompson left (replaced ostensibly by a rotating combo of Buddy Hield, Podzeimski, and Moses Moody) and Steph and Draymond were left on their own. Shockingly, Golden St didn't go hunting for a Danny Green-like player; they decided to go hunting for Durant and eventually traded for Butler.

Green absolutely could replace Klay. He has the exact same skillset, only he's a better defender and a slightly less reliable shooter. In terms of what Klay actually brings Green creates nearly identical gravity towards the 3 point line and has proven he can do this on multiple championship teams, even doing it in a very similar offense to what Kerr runs for the warriors. He even had multiple big scoring games in the finals. This is a guy who's literally played the Klay role in the finals. This isn't even a difficult one to see.

Using a year Dray was clearly hurt and struggling to play more than 10 games in a row, when you've been give better examples of Dray without Curry stepping up is getting just silly man. This is at best now reaching the point of insanity as everyone here has disagreed with this point or it's just sheer dishonesty to paint the picture YOU want without looking at the facts of the situation. Using an injury plagued year to make a point is just downright dishonest.

As Green. Have we not covered there's nobody like him? You yourself have said this. They went and got a replacement for Klay because they're abundant.

Danny Green has never, ever been a top-3 guy on a title contender. There is no comparing a guy who was, at best, the 5th best player on San Antonio to Klay, who has consistently been the 2nd or 3rd option Warriors' teams.

Green's career high in ppg is 11.7. He's never made an all-star game, never made an all-NBA team. He's never received the defensive attention Klay has.

And you want to talk about arguing in bad faith and being dishonest.

[SA37]

By all means...give us someone who could run Dray's role. You yourself have said the warrior's would have to change their system without him.

I think guys like Joakim Noah, Marc Gasol, Paul Millsap, Al Horford, or Chris Bosh could have filled in for Green and provided a lot of what Green provided without having to change the offense much. Defensively they would not have provided the versatility Green offers, but offensively and on the boards (Noah and Bosh)they would have been an upgrade, especially Millsap (offense) and Bosh (offense and boards).

Noah maybe...but you've already now removed the small ball game with these guys. Now longer would you have those warrior 3rd quarters where they ran teams off the floor with smaller faster lineups. So not really the same at all. That's just offense, as you seem to already get that it would change their defense which is the foundation of the warrior's.

Also, I gave you Danny Green who could just in real time have moved over. These guy's careers in terms of when they could do this wouldn't align. You can't just take the 2015 version of these guys and move them over to the warriors, showing all the more difficulty of this exercise.

Replacing guys on title contenders/championship teams is an exercise in massive speculation. Team building is hard and you can't just replace one guy with another even if on paper you think it might work (just like Team USA discovered you couldn't just put a team of stars together a couple of weeks in advance of a tournament and roll out the basketball).

You asked for comparable guys, and I have them to you. No one is a perfect fit, but at least I didn't try and insult everyone's intelligence by suggesting something like Danny Green in place of Klay Thompson

Again, the biggest issue with Draymond Green is his peak -- as recognized by awards, all-star, and all-NBA selections -- was just too short to consider him a star. He is a role player who dipped his toe into the shallow end of the star pool for 3 seasons and then went back to being a role player. A really good role player, but a role player.

[dhsilv2]

Disagree he could have been replaced with Danny Green. IMO, that's just a wildly ignorant statement.

You remove any of the 3 and system doesn't work at a championship level. We saw this when Thompson and Curry were out with injuries and Draymond Green was left on his own. We've seen it when Thompson left (replaced ostensibly by a rotating combo of Buddy Hield, Podzeimski, and Moses Moody) and Steph and Draymond were left on their own. Shockingly, Golden St didn't go hunting for a Danny Green-like player; they decided to go hunting for Durant and eventually traded for Butler.

Green absolutely could replace Klay. He has the exact same skillset, only he's a better defender and a slightly less reliable shooter. In terms of what Klay actually brings Green creates nearly identical gravity towards the 3 point line and has proven he can do this on multiple championship teams, even doing it in a very similar offense to what Kerr runs for the warriors. He even had multiple big scoring games in the finals. This is a guy who's literally played the Klay role in the finals. This isn't even a difficult one to see.

Using a year Dray was clearly hurt and struggling to play more than 10 games in a row, when you've been give better examples of Dray without Curry stepping up is getting just silly man. This is at best now reaching the point of insanity as everyone here has disagreed with this point or it's just sheer dishonesty to paint the picture YOU want without looking at the facts of the situation. Using an injury plagued year to make a point is just downright dishonest.

As Green. Have we not covered there's nobody like him? You yourself have said this. They went and got a replacement for Klay because they're abundant.

Danny Green has never, ever been a top-3 guy on a title contender. There is no comparing a guy who was, at best, the 5th best player on San Antonio to Klay, who has consistently been the 2nd or 3rd option Warriors' teams.

Green's career high in ppg is 11.7. He's never made an all-star game, never made an all-NBA team. He's never received the defensive attention Klay has.

And you want to talk about arguing in bad faith and being dishonest.

Why do you just lie every time we do this stuff? Both have made an all nba defensive second team. Green has received votes 7 different years to Klay's 6, Green had two top 10's in voting while Klay 1. Both peaked 7th in voting.

Meanwhile in our 29 year XRAPM data set Green is -1.3 and in the 91st percentile of defenders. Klay is +1.0 in the 29th percentile. But lets ignore how much the data indicates the two are comparable and leave it with the facts. Voters saw these two as virtually the same and even voted Green to 2nd team over Klay in 2017.

But sure, Klay scores more points because he's a role player in a system that generates more open looks because he plays with Curry and Dray. Plus Klay is a selfish player who demands shots even if it is at the determent to the team.

[dhsilv2]

I think guys like Joakim Noah, Marc Gasol, Paul Millsap, Al Horford, or Chris Bosh could have filled in for Green and provided a lot of what Green provided without having to change the offense much. Defensively they would not have provided the versatility Green offers, but offensively and on the boards (Noah and Bosh)they would have been an upgrade, especially Millsap (offense) and Bosh (offense and boards).

Noah maybe...but you've already now removed the small ball game with these guys. Now longer would you have those warrior 3rd quarters where they ran teams off the floor with smaller faster lineups. So not really the same at all. That's just offense, as you seem to already get that it would change their defense which is the foundation of the warrior's.

Also, I gave you Danny Green who could just in real time have moved over. These guy's careers in terms of when they could do this wouldn't align. You can't just take the 2015 version of these guys and move them over to the warriors, showing all the more difficulty of this exercise.

Replacing guys on title contenders/championship teams is an exercise in massive speculation. Team building is hard and you can't just replace one guy with another even if on paper you think it might work (just like Team USA discovered you couldn't just put a team of stars together a couple of weeks in advance of a tournament and roll out the basketball).

You asked for comparable guys, and I have them to you. No one is a perfect fit, but at least I didn't try and insult everyone's intelligence by suggesting something like Danny Green in place of Klay Thompson

Again, the biggest issue with Draymond Green is his peak -- as recognized by awards, all-star, and all-NBA selections -- was just too short to consider him a star. He is a role player who dipped his toe into the shallow end of the star pool for 3 seasons and then went back to being a role player. A really good role player, but a role player.

You were asked to find a guy who could do Dray's role and you found guys who aren't remotely similar. They can't do that role. What you're showing is you don't even understand how Draymond Green contributes to the team.

You've shown you didn't even know Dray was among the league leaders in assists for numerous years in this discussion.

Serious question. Have you ever watched Draymond Green play? Not just turned on a game with him in it. But actually focused on watching him play? Cause it feels like you've never actually spent anytime watching him play.