How good were Bosh and Love before joining LeBron?

[TheNG]

How good were Bosh and Love before joining LeBron?
I think it’s worth reaching some agreement about how good these players — the “3rd pieces” — actually were right before joining LeBron.
Please vote and discuss.

Some reference points:
2009–10 Chris Bosh
4th in Hollinger’s Efficiency Ranking: http://insider.espn.com/nba/hollinger/statistics/_/year/2010
Ranked 11th here: https://bleacherreport.com/articles/353082-nbas-top-15-best-players-2009-2010-halfway-rankings
Ranked 14th here: https://thehoopdoctors.com/2010/12/top-25-nba-player-rankings-for-2010

2013–14 Kevin Love
3rd in Hollinger’s Efficiency Ranking: http://insider.espn.com/nba/hollinger/statistics/_/year/2014
Ranked 10th here: https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2027028-br-nba-200-ranking-nbas-best-players-of-2013-14-season
Ranked 8th here: https://www.ibtimes.com/top-50-best-basketball-players-2013-2014-nba-season-1581386

[chuck_wagon44]

How good was LeBron before joining teams with all-time superstars? That's the real question.

[-Luke-]

I would have the following players above Bosh before he joined the Heat: LeBron, Durant, Wade, Kobe, Nowitzki, Dwight, Nash, still Duncan, CP3 (was injured, but in a general ranking I'd put him over Bosh). That's 9. Then we have guys like Melo, Gasol, Manu etc. who where probably somewhere in the same range. Hope I didn't forget an obvious candidate. I think KG was already too much on the downside.

In Love's last season in Minnesota I'd have above him: LeBron, Durant, Curry, Harden, CP3, Blake. That's only six that I'd have comfortably above Love. Then there are young Paul George, young Dame, Aldridge and probably some older players who where still good but out of their primes, but all probably behind Love.

So 5-10 sounds reasonable for Love and 10-15 (with a case for late top 10) for Bosh.

[tsherkin]

Bosh was like top-15 in 2010, and Love was much better in 2014, probably top 5-7. I'd say he was good, but it was also a bit of a transitional year. It was just ahead of the huge breakout from Steph, for example, and then Wade was aging out and unhealthy, Dwight had dropped off, Dirk was into his decline, etc.

How good was LeBron before joining teams with all-time superstars? That's the real question.

That isn't a good question. He was an amazing, ATG-level talent who didn't have any help and had still managed to reach the Finals, while doing all kinds of wild things.

[ball_takes23]

How good was LeBron before joining teams with all-time superstars? That's the real question.

there is zero question as to how good he was before the Decision

I think a better question is why him teaming up with all-time superstars does not result in all-time great dynasties being formed.

[mcfly1204]

How good was LeBron before joining teams with all-time superstars? That's the real question.

there is zero question as to how good he was before the Decision

I think a better question is why him teaming up with all-time superstars does not result in all-time great dynasties being formed.

We don't want to question a 25 year old reigning two-time MVP???

[tsherkin]

I think a better question is why him teaming up with all-time superstars does not result in all-time great dynasties being formed.

This is a better question, because it ultimately addresses a root misconception that even James and the others held: that stacking stars without regard to playstyle will always work out synergistically. And it doesn't. You can't take a bunch of guys who need the ball and build the kind of success they were thinking about. They still did very well, but they had depth issues and they didn't have the offensive output they were expecting. They also had health issues, of course, but yeah. James and Wade didn't have the shooting ability they needed to make that work. Lebron ultimately worked on his 3 and his post game, which helped, but yeah. Bosh was never good enough a shooter or fast enough a decision-maker to really help push the offense that much. He ended up helping more with better D than he'd ever played in Toronto.

Beyond that... Bosh was never a superstar, nor was Kyrie, nor was Love. AD, borderline. Wade certainly was when he was healthy, but they played such a similar game that it was hard for them to feed off one another because neither was a strong shooter.

Then you look at Boston. Historic D with a post big, a movement shooter and Paul Pierce, with each of them able to sort of float around into different spots and sets. Lots of off-ball synergy, mix of post action and range. Much better synergy. Age and health got in their way, but if those guys were together in their heydays, that would have been a NASTY dynasty, and they still went 1/2 over 3 years.

Talent can be different things in context, right? Not a lot of people think that one through when pondering rosters, or at least not as often as we should.

[kobe_vs_jordan]

Depend what you mean by good imo. They were fringe /weak super star players who never were meant to be a number 1 option. Bosh and Love could had been elite 2s but played with better teammates in Wade and Kyrie. Their numbers was never going to be great as 3rd option. Neither player was going to play in any significant games as the first option.

[ReggiesKnicks]

How good was LeBron before joining teams with all-time superstars? That's the real question.

Undisputed Top 5 Peak of All-Time and arguably Top 1 Peak ever.

I reckon to say he was quite good

[DonaldSanders]

Love was 2nd team all nba the season before

[The4thHorseman]

How good was LeBron before joining teams with all-time superstars? That's the real question.

there is zero question as to how good he was before the Decision

I think a better question is why him teaming up with all-time superstars does not result in all-time great dynasties being formed.

Wade was the only player who was considered a superstar at the time of LeBron signing with Heat.

[dhsilv2]

With Bosh I'm pretty confident he was top 15 with a case all be it imo, weak, to be top 10. Love is the one I've never felt great about. Stats would tell you he was an absolute monster. A rebounding machine with great post scoring. But I've always been a bit skeptical, largely because some of it didn't translate after. But also in fairness to Love, I wasn't exactly watching a lot of his games.

[Sixers in 4]

I'd rather put them in tiers 1, 2, and 3.

Tier 1 stars would be prime Lebron, Jokic, etc.—potential MVP considerations or guys just outside the conversation
Tier 2 stars would be your solid all-stars, but people would never confuse with being in the conversation as one of the best in the league
Tier 3 would be guys who have huge roles but you are unsure of how that would translate to a better roster, and some years they'll be all-stars; other years not so great. I'd put guys like Cade and Trae there; along with guys like Thomas and Kemba were those type of players.

Bosh is tier 3. AD was tier 1 at points in his career and when he first went to LA but is now in the upper half of tier 2. Wade is tier 1. Irving was tier 1 in CLE and is now tier 2. Love was tier 2.

So Lebron which we all agree is a tier 1 had another tier 1 and a tier 2 and a tier 3 in Miami. Another tier 1 in LA. Another tier 1 and tier 2 CLE.

[MMyhre]

Off topic, but Stephen Jackson was ranked the 12th best player in the NBA by that Bleacherreport article. Incredible stuff really.
I am actually getting brain damage from reading this as well

"I will like to rank Dwight Howard much lower than No. 8, as I don’t think Howard really impacts games as much as he’s been hyped up to be doing.

From the article Shaq is Superman and Dwight Howard? : Howard stands about seven foot, and yet he finds it hard to dominate around the basket—mostly because his fundamentals are flawed."

So Stephen Jackson in 2009 is almost as good as Dwight, and Dwight went from like 6-9 to 7 foot, and he is the overrated one not Stephen Jackson, the Bobcats star.

HAHA, and Melo was above Wade as well I want to die why is this article linked?! Ah, and Deron Williams above Wade as well, post MVP nash over Kobe, and Durant over LeBron, Wade, Kobe in 2009. Probably the most trash ranking I have ever seen!

[TheGeneral99]

I mean both were top 15 players.

People forget Love made the all-NBA second team and averaged 26, 13 and 4 in 2014.

In 2012 Love finished 6th in MVP voting. He was hurt in 2013.

Bosh also finished 12th in MVP voting and had a monster season in 2010. He likely would have been an all-NBA player had he not broke his face late in the season resulting in the Raptors losing finishing poorly and narrowly missing the playoffs.

[witnessraps]

Man prime Love on Minny was a beast, insane rebound numbers and plenty of 40-50 point scoring outbursts. Bosh carried a Raps team that was underwhelming defensively and was a lock for 24-10 with occasional clutch shots, both were top 10-15 in their prime

[UcanUwill]

How good was LeBron before joining teams with all-time superstars? That's the real question.

very good.

[tsherkin]

With Bosh I'm pretty confident he was top 15 with a case all be it imo, weak, to be top 10. Love is the one I've never felt great about. Stats would tell you he was an absolute monster. A rebounding machine with great post scoring. But I've always been a bit skeptical, largely because some of it didn't translate after. But also in fairness to Love, I wasn't exactly watching a lot of his games.

I mean, he had weak-ish chemistry with Lebron in Cleveland, and was used as the third option because he wasn't any kind of ball-handler. So it's hard to look at a guy's impact in totally different use-cases. RAPTOR, DARKO and LEBRON all loved him. His RAPM wasn't amazing. O-EPM loved his O, though.

Big differences in shots and minutes after he left Minny, though, so again, it's tough to look at him and evaluate his impact directly as far as what did and didn't translate later.

[UcanUwill]

Love was overrated due to his sheer statlines. I think he was what he was on a CAVS, third guy on a champonshio team. But when he was with Wolves, people were calling him superstar. He was better than players I gonna mention, but he was in the same mold as Vucevic and Domantas Sabonis, guys whose plain stats were way better than what they actually were. IMO, Love, Vucevic, Hibbert and Sabonis all were the most overrated player in a league, during different periods of time. Bosh was better than Love, thats what I ams saying, people claim he was top 5-7 players, thats freaking stupid, people can't look over boxscore, Love was never top 10 player in a league, never.

[UcanUwill]

With Bosh I'm pretty confident he was top 15 with a case all be it imo, weak, to be top 10. Love is the one I've never felt great about. Stats would tell you he was an absolute monster. A rebounding machine with great post scoring. But I've always been a bit skeptical, largely because some of it didn't translate after. But also in fairness to Love, I wasn't exactly watching a lot of his games.

I watched Wolves like crazy during Rubio years, and it was insane how overrated Love was in my opinion. I do not even think he was most valuable Wolf often, more often than not it was Rubio, a guy who truly impacts the game on both ends. People just see stats and do not think, same exact thing with Domantas SAbonis right now, same exact situation tho love was better I think. Sabonis is just flat out not very good IMO, Love was good third option on championship team, but top 5-7 player ina league, thats just laghable.