Varsho/Moreno/Kirk Discussion Thread

[Fairview4Life]

Trading the current 2nd best C in the league would have been the best option? When his value was low? How does that make any sense.

[brwnman]

Trading the current 2nd best C in the league would have been the best option? When his value was low? How does that make any sense.

Hindsight being 20/20 - it doesn't make sense to trade a catcher who was bad in 2023/2024?

He's not the 2nd best C. Unless you're talking about on this team this year - there is not one baseball executive in the league that believes Kirk is the 2nd best catcher in league.

His value after the 2022 season was sky high (presumably) since that was his best season. His 2023 and 2024 seasons were largely a disappointment.

[Randle McMurphy]

Kirk was the 9th most valuable catcher in the league by fWAR over the 2023-2024 seasons. In offensive down years.

Lies are being spewed here by the Moreno backers because lies are all that they have left.

[brwnman]

After season of 105 and 127 OPS+ - Kirk backers think B2B sub .700 OPS were not a disappointment where he was not close to a league average hitter. All the while knowing the bWAR had Jansen as the better catcher in 2023 (injury notwithstanding) and Jansen was the starting C heading into 2024 over Kirk.

If you really need more 'lies,' here it is:
Moreno's 2023 bWAR had Kirk's 23/24 combined bWAR

Feel free to spin this one.

[Randle McMurphy]

Imagine both ignoring his Kirk's elite 2022 and 2025 seasons and then trying to spin Kirk being the 9th most valuable catcher in the league from 2023-2024 while he was a backup catcher for 3/4 of that time as some kind of negative.

Sad stuff indeed, but it's all they have left.

[brwnman]

Predictable - ignoring Moreno's 2023 versus Kirk's 2023/24 combined.

and rewriting history once again.

Kirk came into the 2023 season as the starting C, lost his job because he wasn't producing and only played in the amount of games he did, because Jansen got hurt. Then in 2024, he was the backup to Jansen and played more games because of Jansen trade and injury.

Even the fWAR is misleading, if you take the some of the other catchers and even out the games, he falls to 13th solely because of defense... and where does he rank in offensive value with catcher with at least 300 PAs? 44th, according to fWAR for 2023/24 combined.

He became the backup C for a reason.

[Fairview4Life]

I understand trolling Randle for reasons, but this is getting really stupid. Your big plan was to trade Kirk when you thought he was bad, and keep currently much worse catchers in Moreno and Jansen. That isn’t great asset management, wouldn’t have been good for the team then, and certainly wouldn’t have been good for the team now. Trading the guy who had value then but isn’t as good as Kirk sure seems like the best option.

[SharoneWright]

I understand trolling Randle for reasons, but this is getting really stupid. Your big plan was to trade Kirk when you thought he was bad, and keep currently much worse catchers in Moreno and Jansen. That isn’t great asset management, wouldn’t have been good for the team then, and certainly wouldn’t have been good for the team now. Trading the guy who had value then but isn’t as good as Kirk sure seems like the best option.

In fact, maybe it’s one of the rare opportunities to give Atkins some credit. I’m not saying he did see the future, but he could say that he did. And a projection is basically the entire job. It’s worked out perfectly.

[brwnman]

Except Moreno was better than Kirk the last two years - but if we ignore those years - sure. But I’m pretty sure when they made that trade, they were looking at 2023 season to compete and not looking at 2025 as the season to compete.

And I was in favour of trading Jansen of the 3, but he had the lowest value at the 3. So Kirk or Moreno were the likelier option. Moreno had the highest value of the 3. There were concerns about Kirk’s durability because of his weight - and there was concern that 2022 would be his best offensive season. He was seen as the safe floor option offensively, but he fell off in 2023/24.

[Los_29]

It's not like the Jays were picking between Kirk/Moreno. They also had Jansen. So the decision was between 3 catchers and which one they were going to trade. Trading Kirk would have been the best option in a win now move since he had B2B disappointing seasons and was worse than Moreno in both.

Not only did the D'Backs trade the guy who is an awful hitter, they got a better hitting LF and kept the best player in the deal.

Hard to think of a bigger opportunity wasted in the Shatkins era than this one.

EDIT - 3 consecutive years where D'Backs have won this trade but the sadist Varshonites want this thread to continue because "there's always next year"

D’Backs are 62-66 and Moreno has struggled to stay healthy and has made no improvements over the past three years. Unfortunately what we thought about Moreno has turned out to be true. He doesn’t have any pop. Varsho nearly has as many homers in 40 games as Moreno has in his entire career with the D’Backs.

Trade has worked out really well for us considering how productive Kirk has been and how much of an impact player Varsho is when healthy.

[brwnman]

It's not like the Jays were picking between Kirk/Moreno. They also had Jansen. So the decision was between 3 catchers and which one they were going to trade. Trading Kirk would have been the best option in a win now move since he had B2B disappointing seasons and was worse than Moreno in both.

Not only did the D'Backs trade the guy who is an awful hitter, they got a better hitting LF and kept the best player in the deal.

Hard to think of a bigger opportunity wasted in the Shatkins era than this one.

EDIT - 3 consecutive years where D'Backs have won this trade but the sadist Varshonites want this thread to continue because "there's always next year"

D’Backs are 62-66 and Moreno has struggled to stay healthy and has made no improvements over the past three years. Unfortunately what we thought about Moreno has turned out to be true. He doesn’t have any pop. Varsho nearly has as many homers in 40 games as Moreno has in his entire career with the D’Backs.

Trade has worked out really well for us considering how productive Kirk has been and how much of an impact player Varsho is when healthy.

Since you brought up records, D'Backs made the WS in Moreno's first year. Jays had to sell last year (largely due to Kirk and Varsho struggling and not providing the team offense that they desperately needed). Feels like it worked out way better for the D'Backs than us based on that fact. Not only that, they're in a much harder division than the Jays the last 3 years.

"No pop" Moreno has been a better hitter than Varsho & Kirk since the start of 2023. And had a better HR rate than Kirk in 2023/24 combined. His lack of power hasn't hindered him being a more productive hitter than both of them.

[Randle McMurphy]

I understand trolling Randle for reasons, but this is getting really stupid. Your big plan was to trade Kirk when you thought he was bad, and keep currently much worse catchers in Moreno and Jansen. That isn’t great asset management, wouldn’t have been good for the team then, and certainly wouldn’t have been good for the team now. Trading the guy who had value then but isn’t as good as Kirk sure seems like the best option.

In fact, maybe it’s one of the rare opportunities to give Atkins some credit. I’m not saying he did see the future, but he could say that he did. And a projection is basically the entire job. It’s worked out perfectly.

Varsho was clearly the best player in the deal and Kirk ended up being the best catcher of the three.

You couldn't have done much better and only sad Moreno backers still gripping onto his prospect status would try to argue differently.

[Randle McMurphy]

Read on Twitter

Best outfield defender in baseball and it isn't close. What a trade.

[Duffman100]

This thread is still so weird.

[s e n s i]

Read on Twitter

Best outfield defender in baseball and it isn't close. What a trade.

i was told “michael siani” was the best outfield defender in baseball though — truly strange he does not even appear on this list?

[vaff87]

Kirk, Varsho, and Moreno are all good players when they’re healthy. I didn’t like the trade when it happened, but it has worked out well.

I don’t think Varsho is the best defensive outfielder “by far”. Pete Crow-Armstrong, Denzel Clarke, and Ceddanne Rafaela are in that convo.

[Randle McMurphy]

Kirk, Varsho, and Moreno are all good players when they’re healthy. I didn’t like the trade when it happened, but it has worked out well.

I don’t think Varsho is the best defensive outfielder “by far”. Pete Crow-Armstrong, Denzel Clarke, and Ceddanne Rafaela are in that convo.

+10 DRS in 40 games

All-time great level defensive player

[vaff87]

Kirk, Varsho, and Moreno are all good players when they’re healthy. I didn’t like the trade when it happened, but it has worked out well.

I don’t think Varsho is the best defensive outfielder “by far”. Pete Crow-Armstrong, Denzel Clarke, and Ceddanne Rafaela are in that convo.

+10 DRS in 40 games

All-time great level defensive player

Those other guys all have impressive defensive metrics, as well:



Are we seeing the best defensive season by an outfielder, ever?

[Randle McMurphy]

Kirk, Varsho, and Moreno are all good players when they’re healthy. I didn’t like the trade when it happened, but it has worked out well.

I don’t think Varsho is the best defensive outfielder “by far”. Pete Crow-Armstrong, Denzel Clarke, and Ceddanne Rafaela are in that convo.

+10 DRS in 40 games

All-time great level defensive player

Those other guys all have impressive defensive metrics, as well:



Are we seeing the best defensive season by an outfielder, ever?

Varsho’s rate stats are better than all those guys, would be leading that category too had he played a full season

[vaff87]

+10 DRS in 40 games

All-time great level defensive player

Those other guys all have impressive defensive metrics, as well:



Are we seeing the best defensive season by an outfielder, ever?

Varsho’s rate stats are better than all those guys, would be leading that category too had he played a full season

Clarke has only played 47 games.