James Harden or Manu Ginobili, for a single year run

[picc]

How fortunate are we to have the 2012 playoff series between prime Ginobili and pre-prime Harden, both playing 3rd option roles.

Quick, someone tell us how each performed in that series.

So it is worth discussing? haha

Just messing.

IIRC, James was a buzzsaw against the Spurs and ended their season on a cold blooded stepback. Then had an epic, inexplicable at the time meltdown in the finals.

[The Master]

To start your team with? Harden comfortably.

To play him as a primary ballhandler? Harden.

To play him in superteam-type of situation? Manu comfortably.

There's too big difference in volume and usage not to consider Harden a superior player, especially considering the way he was defended in his peak years, but there are instances where portability and all-round skills of Manu would fit better.

[dhsilv2]

To start your team with? Harden comfortably.

To play him as a primary ballhandler? Harden.

To play him in superteam-type of situation? Manu comfortably.

There's too big difference in volume and usage not to consider Harden a superior player, especially considering the way he was defended in his peak years, but there are instances where portability and all-round skills of Manu would fit better.

Why the ball handler one? Off hand I wouldn't expect people to see a big gap there.

[The Master]

Why the ball handler one? Off hand I wouldn't expect people to see a big gap there.

I don't think there's a 'big gap' there - but peak Harden was able to generate gravity due to iso scoring/PNR threat to much bigger extent than Manu at any point. I don't think that even in 2005 (probably peak Manu in the playoffs) teams were actually gameplanning to stop Manu on offense (even if I agree that he could be more impactful than TD that year, but he still played on lower volume and in a lesser role than Duncan on offense). Actually, even Tony Parker played on higher volume than Manu in 2005 offensively.

Harden would've been clinical in such role, 22yo Harden went with 18-5-3 on 63TS% and +4.9 BPM in the West in 2012, when he was in position to play in Manu-esque role, and he was twice good as a player in his prime.

The only situation that I see Manu being superior is playing on very stacked/historically stacked teams where fit > talent, as he was an ultimate team player. But to be honest, this is always very overestimated factor in comparing superstars in my eyes, as these ideal situations rarely occur. There's a reason why in real life you expect from your superstar to play on heavy minutes with heavy volume and usage.

[dhsilv2]

Why the ball handler one? Off hand I wouldn't expect people to see a big gap there.

I don't think there's a 'big gap' there - but peak Harden was able to generate gravity due to iso scoring/PNR threat to much bigger extent than Manu at any point. I don't think that even in 2005 (probably peak Manu in the playoffs) teams were actually gameplanning to stop Manu on offense (even if I agree that he could be more impactful than TD that year, but he still played on lower volume and in a lesser role than Duncan on offense). Actually, even Tony Parker played on higher volume than Manu in 2005 offensively.

Harden would've been clinical in such role, 22yo Harden went with 18-5-3 on 63TS% and +4.9 BPM in the West in 2012, when he was in position to play in Manu-esque role, and he was twice good as a player in his prime.

The only situation that I see Manu being superior is playing on very stacked/historically stacked teams where fit > talent, as he was an ultimate team player. But to be honest, this is always very overestimated factor in comparing superstars in my eyes, as these ideal situations rarely occur. There's a reason why in real life you expect from your superstar to play on heavy minutes with heavy volume and usage.

I can see a case for everything here. I just don't see why you'd pick on or the other as the primary ball handler. Look at Harden and CP3 together. Either could bring it up. I don't really see Manu's handle as being noticeably worse. But if you're looking at this in a much bigger picture thing, then that's cool. I was more so wondering if I needed to go back and watch some Manu ball handling vs Harden. I think Harden has a tighter dribble btw, I just don't think either couldn't do that role for a contender all else equal.

[The Master]

I can see a case for everything here. I just don't see why you'd pick on or the other as the primary ball handler. Look at Harden and CP3 together. Either could bring it up. I don't really see Manu's handle as being noticeably worse. But if you're looking at this in a much bigger picture thing, then that's cool. I was more so wondering if I needed to go back and watch some Manu ball handling vs Harden. I think Harden has a tighter dribble btw, I just don't think either couldn't do that role for a contender all else equal.

Yeah, yeah, by 'primary ballhandler' I meant a ~primary perimeter creator, not strictly their handles.

[Rust_Cohle]

Ginobili. Put harden on that 2004 Argentina team and they’re out in round 1.

[Rust_Cohle]

Why the ball handler one? Off hand I wouldn't expect people to see a big gap there.

I don't think there's a 'big gap' there - but peak Harden was able to generate gravity due to iso scoring/PNR threat to much bigger extent than Manu at any point. I don't think that even in 2005 (probably peak Manu in the playoffs) teams were actually gameplanning to stop Manu on offense (even if I agree that he could be more impactful than TD that year, but he still played on lower volume and in a lesser role than Duncan on offense). Actually, even Tony Parker played on higher volume than Manu in 2005 offensively.

Harden would've been clinical in such role, 22yo Harden went with 18-5-3 on 63TS% and +4.9 BPM in the West in 2012, when he was in position to play in Manu-esque role, and he was twice good as a player in his prime.

The only situation that I see Manu being superior is playing on very stacked/historically stacked teams where fit > talent, as he was an ultimate team player. But to be honest, this is always very overestimated factor in comparing superstars in my eyes, as these ideal situations rarely occur. There's a reason why in real life you expect from your superstar to play on heavy minutes with heavy volume and usage.

I can see a case for everything here. I just don't see why you'd pick on or the other as the primary ball handler. Look at Harden and CP3 together. Either could bring it up. I don't really see Manu's handle as being noticeably worse. But if you're looking at this in a much bigger picture thing, then that's cool. I was more so wondering if I needed to go back and watch some Manu ball handling vs Harden. I think Harden has a tighter dribble btw, I just don't think either couldn't do that role for a contender all else equal.

In 2005 they absolutely were, he was an all star and took his team to a gold medal. Pistons talked about how Duncan was covered by both Wallace but Ginobili was very hard to gameplan for due to how unorthodox he was. He got hit in the calf in game 3 and the spurs nearly lost the entire series.

[DaPessimist]

The one who shows up in the Playoffs.

[f4p]

Harden will just inevitably let you down in the playoffs, he has an unprecedented 15 year track record of going down in flames.

It's not even a ringless thing, his individual play drops off a cliff in the playoffs, and the more critical the game or series gets, the worse he plays.

And yet his playoff numbers are better then manu. So I guess he falls off a cliff onto an even higher ledge than manu climbed to. I wish I could let Timmy and pop take care of everything in my life while I play against the B squad.

[f4p]

Go with the clutch playoff winner.

4X Champ.

Gold Medalist in an even bigger role.

Manu.

Every day and twice on Sunday.

Eight days a week.

Yeah I'm sure pairing harden with one of the greatest defenders and coaches ever would have been a disaster. Did I stumble into the brain dead general board?

[f4p]

Harden will just inevitably let you down in the playoffs, he has an unprecedented 15 year track record of going down in flames.

It's not even a ringless thing, his individual play drops off a cliff in the playoffs, and the more critical the game or series gets, the worse he plays.

Yes this is why its a question.

James Harden is unquestionably a far better regular season player than Manu. By laps and miles. And yet if he's running your team you can almost pencil in a nuclear level meltdown in the playoffs. While Manu is a reliable playoff performer.

Like when manu shot 34% in the first round in 2007, 41% in the second (against Nash!) , and 36% in the finals. And got a ring? Harden probably wishes he could take a year off and get a ring, lol. Or play 20 minutes a game and be the people's GOAT.

But would you choose a Ferrari over a Honda for a race if you knew the Ferrari's engine would blow with 90% certainty?

I don't know. If I felt assured of the answer I wouldn't have asked.

The Ferrari still has better playoff numbers. Either the Honda also had some meltdowns or wasn't that good to begin with. 2018 to 2021 Harden ( pre hamstring) has better numbers than the best Manu we've ever seen (2005). Looking at the poll, PC board caught the ringz disease.

[f4p]

I’d rather have Ginobli. My team might completely flame out if I can’t find a better anchor for my team and let Manu be the second guy, and X factor type.

But with Harden you’re assured of a catastrophic meltdown, and you don’t get all the little things from him either. I know he can carry me to better regular season records, but that’s where it will end.

Why doesn't Harden get to play with Tim Duncan. In your little hypothetical. Your argument is basically that you'd rather hire a bad money manager if you're already rich than a good one if you're poor. Like yeah, starting rich is better

[1993Playoffs]

Harden and Duncan easily. 2 mvp tier players. Manu couldn’t even play the full allotted minutes for a superstar

[MrBigShot]

If the #1 option, Harden. Manu simply isn't going to stay healthy playing 36+ mins a game carrying a team all year. He was so damn good but he wasn't built to carry a team for 82 games.

[f4p]

I just want to ask all the people who are saying "Manu": Are you willing to give him max contract? Because otherwise I don't think it's a fair comparison...

This is for a single year run. Multi-year isn't really a question given Harden's durability.

Taking out the minutes Harden played on a worse hamstring injury than steph sat out with this year, 2018 to 2021 Harden has better playoff numbers than manus 2005 peak. So unless the one manu year we're getting from a two decade career is specifically 2005 then its a bad answer.

And harden has a +15 on off so impact isn't the answer. Or if you're going to turn to RAPM, then you better be in the camp of Manu over Duncan and Manu over Steph.

[picc]

Like when manu shot 34% in the first round in 2007, 41% in the second (against Nash!) , and 36% in the finals. And got a ring? Harden probably wishes he could take a year off and get a ring, lol. Or play 20 minutes a game and be the people's GOAT.

Hmm. Can't say this isn't a fair point. Manu's bad times didn't get heat because the Spurs still won or because Duncan was the face of the team.

The Ferrari still has better playoff numbers. Either the Honda also had some meltdowns or wasn't that good to begin with. 2018 to 2021 Harden ( pre hamstring) has better numbers than the best Manu we've ever seen (2005). Looking at the poll, PC board caught the ringz disease.

Right but it seems numbers are the point of contention here. Notably the idea that Harden is less than his and Manu is more than his.

[f4p]

If we're assuming either guy is the team's best player, well then said team isn't winning a championship. I'd probably sit both and tank for a better pick.

No offense but I always wonder what people mean when they say incredibly ridiculous stuff like this. Like is it just ignorance or trolling, Harden was the best player on a 65 win team that was up 3-2 on a top 10 all time team until his best teammate got hurt. So obviously that team wins a title in like 75% of seasons minimum. So your argument is basically that Harden can't win if we give him the most challenging circumstances ever. Like what kind argument is that? Ignorant or trolling?

[f4p]

That's not my point. Even for a single year Harden's salary is assumed (in people minds) to be as one of the highest paid players in the league. My question to all the people picking Manu is whether they apply the same standard for Ginobili.

I would take Manu over Harden for a single year to win a championship presuming the team is already good. He can't carry a team like Harden can in the regular season but he's one of the best playoff performers we've seen this century. And the playoffs are an entirely different game from the regular season.

That's a very low standard that doesn't mean a lot. A good team probably have enough good players earning a lot so by saying "presuming" you imply you are not willing to pay Manu as a max player.

Yeah, you see, we'd like to have Manu, on the best day of his life, after taking the regular season off to stay fresh but still be the 2 seed, and pay him nothing and only let him face bench players. You know, like all the greats, lol.

[G R E Y]

Go with the clutch playoff winner.

4X Champ.

Gold Medalist in an even bigger role.

Manu.

Every day and twice on Sunday.

Eight days a week.

Yeah I'm sure pairing harden with one of the greatest defenders and coaches ever would have been a disaster. Did I stumble into the brain dead general board?

How many coaches and rosters has Harden had now?