Stockton says LeBrons titles don’t have value

[ball_takes23]

Yes. The location of the deck really doesn't matter.

So basically, it's only not stacking the deck if you build throuhg the draft? Or don't sign all-nba level/all-start teamates in free agency?

The same people will say what Nate said and in the same breathe give Curry all his flowers for the rings with KD.

The hypocrisy is hilarious.

except the reality is the exact opposite.

KD played better alongside Curry than he has on any of the other teams he's ever played on.

Lebron's superstar teammates play worse alongside him than they had on their previous teams.

The end result is that Curry's superteams end up becoming unbeatable juggernauts, but he ends up getting less of the credit, and Lebron's superteams end up becoming less than the sum of their parts, but he ends up getting all of the credit.

[Mephariel]

So basically, it's only not stacking the deck if you build throuhg the draft? Or don't sign all-nba level/all-start teamates in free agency?

The same people will say what Nate said and in the same breathe give Curry all his flowers for the rings with KD.

The hypocrisy is hilarious.

except the reality is the exact opposite.

KD played better alongside Curry than he has on any of the other teams he's ever played on.

Lebron's superstar teammates play worse alongside him than they had on their previous teams.

The end result is that Curry's superteams end up becoming unbeatable juggernauts, but he ends up getting less of the credit, and Lebron's superteams end up becoming less than the sum of their parts, but he ends up getting all of the credit.

KD is also better than any teammate Lebron ever had. KD is #8 all time in scoring.

Give Lebron KD and Klay and they would be an unbeatable juggernaut too.

You also forgot that Lebron beat Curry and the 73-9 Warriors team when they didn't have Durant.

[ball_takes23]

The same people will say what Nate said and in the same breathe give Curry all his flowers for the rings with KD.

The hypocrisy is hilarious.

except the reality is the exact opposite.

KD played better alongside Curry than he has on any of the other teams he's ever played on.

Lebron's superstar teammates play worse alongside him than they had on their previous teams.

The end result is that Curry's superteams end up becoming unbeatable juggernauts, but he ends up getting less of the credit, and Lebron's superteams end up becoming less than the sum of their parts, but he ends up getting all of the credit.

KD is also better than any teammate Lebron ever had. KD is #8 all time in scoring.

Give Lebron KD and Klay and they would be an unbeatable juggernaut too.

You also forgot that Lebron beat Curry and the 73-9 Warriors team when they didn't have Durant.

nope this is exactly what im talking about, Curry's teammates play better alongside him than they do without him, Lebrons superstar teammates take a step down when they go to join him, and instead of people saying "Curry makes his teammates better" they frame it as "Curry has better teammates"

Dwayne Wade was a first-team all-NBA star, coming off of a 33/6/7 performance against a top 3 Celtics defense the year before the Heatles formed. There is absolutely no reason on paper that Wade and Lebron should not have been every bit as dominant as Steph and KD were, and I have zero reason to believe that Curry and Wade would not have also been an all-time duo if they had played together.

[The4thHorseman]

Uh he went to Miami specfically to team up with prime Wade and Bosh. I'd call that 100% stacking the deck. Especially considering that he predicted that they'd win not 1, not 2, not 3, not 4, etc championships. That was in fact stacking the deck. As was teaming up with Love and Irving in Cleveland, and looking to form another big 3 in Los Angeles. Getting AD. Tried to get Kawhi, and had since been paired up with another top level star in Luka. All this guy has done since 2010-2011 is look to stack the deck for rings.

If Bosh and Wade joined LeBron in Cleveland is that still “stacking the deck”

Yes. Also, Lebron using his agency to manipulate his teams and the league is a big part of the story. Him, Wade, and Bosh (and Melo though he chickened out and took the $$) tried to game the system to create an unbeatable superteam. But Lebron couldn't control Riley and Wade fell off so he left for a situation with a lot of assets that he could control in Cavs. He used Klutch to sign/re-sign teammates to ensure the guys he wanted to play with would be there (see TT and Shump deals). When he couldn't squeeze anymore out of Cavs asset base, he goes to LA, another team with lots of assets he can use to trade. Klutch signs AD and convinces him to force a trade to only Lebron's team. Klutch has one third of the Lakers roster at one point. Lebron is out recruiting Kawhi. He tried to recruit Derozan, and successfully recruited Westbrook which Lakers had to acquiese and wound up giving up a bunch of their good young players in the process. Pelinka had to pull a rabbit out of his hat to unwind that deal two years later. These are just the ones that have been publically confirmed (Paul George, anyone?).

The "stacking the deck" narrative is part of Lebron's legacy at this point. Miami was a players led initiative. Cavs and Lakers were a Lebron + Klutch initiative.

If LeBron is allegedly the one making ALL the decisions on which players and coaches are coming and going, then how can he not be the GOAT?

Why is he allowed by ownership to allegedly make all basketball decisions?

Since Ty Lue was considered a so-called puppet and not a coach, then that means in 2016 LeBron was the first player/ coach to win a title since Russell, correct?

[Iwasawitness]

except the reality is the exact opposite.

KD played better alongside Curry than he has on any of the other teams he's ever played on.

Lebron's superstar teammates play worse alongside him than they had on their previous teams.

The end result is that Curry's superteams end up becoming unbeatable juggernauts, but he ends up getting less of the credit, and Lebron's superteams end up becoming less than the sum of their parts, but he ends up getting all of the credit.

KD is also better than any teammate Lebron ever had. KD is #8 all time in scoring.

Give Lebron KD and Klay and they would be an unbeatable juggernaut too.

You also forgot that Lebron beat Curry and the 73-9 Warriors team when they didn't have Durant.

nope this is exactly what im talking about, Curry's teammates play better alongside him than they do without him, Lebrons superstar teammates take a step down when they go to join him, and instead of people saying "Curry makes his teammates better" they frame it as "Curry has better teammates"

Dwayne Wade was a first-team all-NBA star, coming off of a 33/6/7 performance against a top 3 Celtics defense the year before the Heatles formed. There is absolutely no reason on paper that Wade and Lebron should not have been every bit as dominant as Steph and KD were, and I have zero reason to believe that Curry and Wade would not have also been an all-time duo if they had played together.

Lol what? There are multiple reasons as to why they weren't (and shouldn't have been) as dominant as Curry and KD were.

1. No set system in place at first, meaning they had to just wing it and figure out what works best.

2. Didn't fit together nearly as well as Curry/KD did.

3. Didn't have anywhere close to the supporting cast.

4. Most of the team was brand new, and an entirely new structure was needed. KD joined a 73 win team with most of the structure still intact and the roles already figured out.

When you continue to just ignore any and all substance, and outright disregard context, and just spout utter nonsense, the above is what you get. Also, your point about LeBron's teammates getting worse just isn't true either. Irving, by all accounts, improved greatly playing with LeBron. Hell, his best season up that point was WITH LEBRON. AD, by all accounts, thrived while playing with LeBron. Why do you and so many others ignore this stuff?

[Nate505]

Yes. The location of the deck really doesn't matter.

So basically, it's only not stacking the deck if you build throuhg the draft? Or don't sign all-nba level/all-start teamates in free agency?

The same people will say what Nate said and in the same breathe give Curry all his flowers for the rings with KD.

I'll give Curry his flowers because he won two rings without Durant. If he only won rings with the Durant team, he'd be thought of as a lesser player for sure.

[Nate505]

If Bosh and Wade joined LeBron in Cleveland is that still “stacking the deck”

Yes. The location of the deck really doesn't matter.

So basically, it's only not stacking the deck if you build throuhg the draft? Or don't sign all-nba level/all-start teamates in free agency?

When All NBA types go to teams with other All NBA types in FA, it definitely cheapens the process.

[Mephariel]

except the reality is the exact opposite.

KD played better alongside Curry than he has on any of the other teams he's ever played on.

Lebron's superstar teammates play worse alongside him than they had on their previous teams.

The end result is that Curry's superteams end up becoming unbeatable juggernauts, but he ends up getting less of the credit, and Lebron's superteams end up becoming less than the sum of their parts, but he ends up getting all of the credit.

KD is also better than any teammate Lebron ever had. KD is #8 all time in scoring.

Give Lebron KD and Klay and they would be an unbeatable juggernaut too.

You also forgot that Lebron beat Curry and the 73-9 Warriors team when they didn't have Durant.

nope this is exactly what im talking about, Curry's teammates play better alongside him than they do without him, Lebrons superstar teammates take a step down when they go to join him, and instead of people saying "Curry makes his teammates better" they frame it as "Curry has better teammates"

Dwayne Wade was a first-team all-NBA star, coming off of a 33/6/7 performance against a top 3 Celtics defense the year before the Heatles formed. There is absolutely no reason on paper that Wade and Lebron should not have been every bit as dominant as Steph and KD were, and I have zero reason to believe that Curry and Wade would not have also been an all-time duo if they had played together.

KD went to the Finals with Westbrook and won MVP before ever stepping foot in the Bay. He never averaged less than 25 points since his rookie year and joined the Warriors at 26 years old, the height of his prime.

How do you twist this into "Curry made Durant better?"

[Mephariel]

So basically, it's only not stacking the deck if you build throuhg the draft? Or don't sign all-nba level/all-start teamates in free agency?

The same people will say what Nate said and in the same breathe give Curry all his flowers for the rings with KD.

I'll give Curry his flowers because he won two rings without Durant. If he only won rings with the Durant team, he'd be thought of as a lesser player for sure.

Lebron won 2 rings without Wade and Bosh too.

[NbaAllDay]

The same people will say what Nate said and in the same breathe give Curry all his flowers for the rings with KD.

I'll give Curry his flowers because he won two rings without Durant. If he only won rings with the Durant team, he'd be thought of as a lesser player for sure.

Lebron won 2 rings without Wade and Bosh too.

But but he had AD and eer Dwight in LA = stacked. Or is that the mickey mouse ring excuse. Pick your poison.

2016 he stacked the deck against the 73 win warriors too right? Or he got draymond suspended otherwise they lose. Not sure what narrative to pick there either.

This is the problem with opinions that have 0 substance. They fall apart pretty quickly.

[michaelm]

You're talking to a guy who constantly says negative things about LeBron. This argument isn't going to fly.

There was never an NBA finals LeBron went into where his team was head and shoulders better than the competition. Your argument is the one that lacks substance here, not mine.

Imo he has never managed to successfully stack the deck, which is not the same as saying he never tried to do so. He rightly gets much credit at Miami because Wade got injured, and was very definitely the player who deserves the most credit for the first 3 title wins and a considerable amount of the credit for the 4th, although imo AD was pretty much equally responsible for the 4th title.

LeBron partisans complaining about other teams bring stacked is what irks people, certainly me for a start.

Sure, he definitely had intentions to. But the simple fact of the matter is, he didn't, because he doesn't know how to properly put a team together.

No one complains about other teams being stacked, we are simply rightfully pointing it out whenever people say things like "Miami should have won all four years".

We entirely agree, that is absolutely the problem. He has tried to get players with the most talent rather than with good fit. The exception was AD who was a great fit, and they were pretty to watch together when they were both healthy.

As we know from his time when he was in a position to influence the rosters at Washington, and from the players of his own preference who Krause wouldn't sign you and Dimes have listed, Jordan would have been worse, probably much worse, had he been allowed to have a significant GM role at the Bulls. You perhaps don't need to think much about your playing limitations when you are a sportsman of unusual greatness, although both did at one stage, Jordan recognising he needed to play more as a team player, LeBron after the 2011 finals.

[Nate505]

The same people will say what Nate said and in the same breathe give Curry all his flowers for the rings with KD.

I'll give Curry his flowers because he won two rings without Durant. If he only won rings with the Durant team, he'd be thought of as a lesser player for sure.

Lebron won 2 rings without Wade and Bosh too.

Yeah, he one one with Kyrie and Love, and one with AD. I don't think he won one without either going to a team with all-stars, or having a team trade for one.

IMO he's the second best player in NBA history, so it's not like I think he sucks or anything. He just did it in an easier way than the guys in the past did it.

[Iwasawitness]

I'll give Curry his flowers because he won two rings without Durant. If he only won rings with the Durant team, he'd be thought of as a lesser player for sure.

Lebron won 2 rings without Wade and Bosh too.

Yeah, he one one with Kyrie and Love, and one with AD. I don't think he won one without either going to a team with all-stars, or having a team trade for one.

IMO he's the second best player in NBA history, so it's not like I think he sucks or anything. He just did it in an easier way than the guys in the past did it.

Most guys in the past did it with all star help, just like LeBron did. Your logic doesn't make any sense here.

[DimesandKnicks]

Yes. The location of the deck really doesn't matter.

So basically, it's only not stacking the deck if you build throuhg the draft? Or don't sign all-nba level/all-start teamates in free agency?

When All NBA types go to teams with other All NBA types in FA, it definitely cheapens the process.

So like when the Bulls traded for Rodman the year after he was all nba third team?

[Iwasawitness]

So basically, it's only not stacking the deck if you build throuhg the draft? Or don't sign all-nba level/all-start teamates in free agency?

When All NBA types go to teams with other All NBA types in FA, it definitely cheapens the process.

So like when the Bulls traded for Rodman the year after he was all nba third team?

But remember, he was a head case apparently that no one wanted to play with, because for some reason that negates everything he brings to the court.

[michaelm]

If Bosh and Wade joined LeBron in Cleveland is that still “stacking the deck”

100% obv. Why does KD get so much flack for choosing the 'hardest road' in FA but LBJ gets a pass for oranising his own teams again and again and again? And lets not forget his failed attempt at LAL with Russ and Melo just because it didn't end in a ring. And who got the blame for it? You fanboys really twist the history for him than anyone ever has for any other player.

You know why KD gets so much flack compared to LeBron. It isn't rocket science.

And organize his own teams? He didn't do that in Miami and he didn't do it in Cleveland. So what are you going on about?

Yes, KD was involved in a deck stacking endeavour which was actually successful. He subsequently didn’t prove very adept at repeating this though, because he can’t cover most if not all bases as LeBron can and needs pieces around him. Man’s got to know his limitations.

Why he apparently had an obligation to leave OKC only for a team LeBron could beat, or have any limitation on his choices given he was a free Agent the first time just as LeBron was for his moves I have never understood though.

[JM00n69]

100% obv. Why does KD get so much flack for choosing the 'hardest road' in FA but LBJ gets a pass for oranising his own teams again and again and again? And lets not forget his failed attempt at LAL with Russ and Melo just because it didn't end in a ring. And who got the blame for it? You fanboys really twist the history for him than anyone ever has for any other player.

You know why KD gets so much flack compared to LeBron. It isn't rocket science.

And organize his own teams? He didn't do that in Miami and he didn't do it in Cleveland. So what are you going on about?

Yes, KD was involved in a deck stacking endeavour which was actually successful. He subsequently didn’t prove very adept at repeating this though, because he can’t cover most if not all bases as LeBron can and needs pieces around him. Man’s got to know his limitations.

Why he apparently had an obligation to leave OKC only for a team LeBron could beat, or have any limitation on his choices given he was a free Agent the first time just as LeBron was for his moves I have never understood though.

It's pointless to argue with this person. LBJ/Wade/Bosh met multiple times before 'the decision' to form the Heatles and ALL OF THEM signed for significantly less than their max so they could play together. Trying to argue MIA wasn't organized. It was all over the sports media at the time. You're either too young or willfully ignorant.

[MavsDirk41]

So basically, it's only not stacking the deck if you build throuhg the draft? Or don't sign all-nba level/all-start teamates in free agency?

When All NBA types go to teams with other All NBA types in FA, it definitely cheapens the process.

So like when the Bulls traded for Rodman the year after he was all nba third team?

Acquring Rodman turned out to be a great move by Krause but Rodman was 34 and only played 49 games the year prior in San Antonio because of multiple suspensions, a personal leave of absence, and a motorcycle accident while openly criticizing Pop and others in the organization while heading out the door.

When James recruited Love to Cleveland he was 25 and coming off a 26/13/4 season and was an all star and all nba team 2.

When James recruited Davis to LA he was 25 and coming off a 26/12/4 season and only played 56 games because he publicly requested a trade and New Orleans benched him. He was an all star and all nba player.

When James was gifted Luka he was 25 and averaged 28/8/8 coming off a season in which he led his team to the finals, was an all star, all nba team 1, mvp candidate.

One isnt like the others. And getting back to your response to me from Tuesday, i had no clue that Jordan wanted the Bulls to trade for Walter Davis. With BJ and Craig Hodges they didnt need him and he was way past his prime and old at that point in his career. I knew Jordan was the reason Stackhouse was traded to Washington for Rip Hamilton. Terrible trade that didnt work out. But James has recruited Love, Davis, Westbrook, Leonard, Lilllard, DeRozan, Durant, and of course was part of getting the superteam Heat together. An article i read said he has a “war room” at his house where he has met with players to strategize ways to get them on his team. So he is way better than Jordan at recruiting talent to play with.

[Iwasawitness]

You know why KD gets so much flack compared to LeBron. It isn't rocket science.

And organize his own teams? He didn't do that in Miami and he didn't do it in Cleveland. So what are you going on about?

Yes, KD was involved in a deck stacking endeavour which was actually successful. He subsequently didn’t prove very adept at repeating this though, because he can’t cover most if not all bases as LeBron can and needs pieces around him. Man’s got to know his limitations.

Why he apparently had an obligation to leave OKC only for a team LeBron could beat, or have any limitation on his choices given he was a free Agent the first time just as LeBron was for his moves I have never understood though.

It's pointless to argue with this person. LBJ/Wade/Bosh met multiple times before 'the decision' to form the Heatles and ALL OF THEM signed for significantly less than their max so they could play together. Trying to argue MIA wasn't organized. It was all over the sports media at the time. You're either too young or willfully ignorant.

Met multiple times beforehand to form the Heat? What part of your ass did you pull that one out of?

LeBron literally tried and failed to get Bosh to go to Cleveland that very off-season. He originally didn't want to go to Miami, only doing so when he felt like he had no choice. This is a well documented fact.

Sorry that I choose to follow facts and common sense.

[JRoy]

So basically, it's only not stacking the deck if you build throuhg the draft? Or don't sign all-nba level/all-start teamates in free agency?

The same people will say what Nate said and in the same breathe give Curry all his flowers for the rings with KD.

The hypocrisy is hilarious.

except the reality is the exact opposite.

KD played better alongside Curry than he has on any of the other teams he's ever played on.

Lebron's superstar teammates play worse alongside him than they had on their previous teams.

The end result is that Curry's superteams end up becoming unbeatable juggernauts, but he ends up getting less of the credit, and Lebron's superteams end up becoming less than the sum of their parts, but he ends up getting all of the credit.

LeBron is king of the front runners.