Draymond Green is underrated

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SA37
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Re: Draymond Green is underrated 

Post#281 » by SA37 » Fri Aug 22, 2025 6:07 pm

dhsilv2 wrote:
SA37 wrote:
dhsilv2 wrote:
Green absolutely could replace Klay. He has the exact same skillset, only he's a better defender and a slightly less reliable shooter. In terms of what Klay actually brings Green creates nearly identical gravity towards the 3 point line and has proven he can do this on multiple championship teams, even doing it in a very similar offense to what Kerr runs for the warriors. He even had multiple big scoring games in the finals. This is a guy who's literally played the Klay role in the finals. This isn't even a difficult one to see.

Using a year Dray was clearly hurt and struggling to play more than 10 games in a row, when you've been give better examples of Dray without Curry stepping up is getting just silly man. This is at best now reaching the point of insanity as everyone here has disagreed with this point or it's just sheer dishonesty to paint the picture YOU want without looking at the facts of the situation. Using an injury plagued year to make a point is just downright dishonest.

As Green. Have we not covered there's nobody like him? You yourself have said this. They went and got a replacement for Klay because they're abundant.


Danny Green has never, ever been a top-3 guy on a title contender. There is no comparing a guy who was, at best, the 5th best player on San Antonio to Klay, who has consistently been the 2nd or 3rd option Warriors' teams.

Green's career high in ppg is 11.7. He's never made an all-star game, never made an all-NBA team. He's never received the defensive attention Klay has.

And you want to talk about arguing in bad faith and being dishonest. :roll:


Why do you just lie every time we do this stuff? Both have made an all nba defensive second team. Green has received votes 7 different years to Klay's 6, Green had two top 10's in voting while Klay 1. Both peaked 7th in voting.

Meanwhile in our 29 year XRAPM data set Green is -1.3 and in the 91st percentile of defenders. Klay is +1.0 in the 29th percentile. But lets ignore how much the data indicates the two are comparable and leave it with the facts. Voters saw these two as virtually the same and even voted Green to 2nd team over Klay in 2017.

But sure, Klay scores more points because he's a role player in a system that generates more open looks because he plays with Curry and Dray. Plus Klay is a selfish player who demands shots even if it is at the determent to the team.


Klay scores epically more, had more offensive & scoring responsibility -- especially with a liability as big as Draymond Green -- and, unlike Danny Green, has been selected to multiple all-star games and to multiple all-NBA teams.

No need to continue such an absurd discussion about an absurd comparison.
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Re: Draymond Green is underrated 

Post#282 » by SA37 » Fri Aug 22, 2025 6:10 pm

dhsilv2 wrote:
SA37 wrote:
dhsilv2 wrote:
Noah maybe...but you've already now removed the small ball game with these guys. Now longer would you have those warrior 3rd quarters where they ran teams off the floor with smaller faster lineups. So not really the same at all. That's just offense, as you seem to already get that it would change their defense which is the foundation of the warrior's.

Also, I gave you Danny Green who could just in real time have moved over. These guy's careers in terms of when they could do this wouldn't align. You can't just take the 2015 version of these guys and move them over to the warriors, showing all the more difficulty of this exercise.


Replacing guys on title contenders/championship teams is an exercise in massive speculation. Team building is hard and you can't just replace one guy with another even if on paper you think it might work (just like Team USA discovered you couldn't just put a team of stars together a couple of weeks in advance of a tournament and roll out the basketball).

You asked for comparable guys, and I have them to you. No one is a perfect fit, but at least I didn't try and insult everyone's intelligence by suggesting something like Danny Green in place of Klay Thompson :lol:

Again, the biggest issue with Draymond Green is his peak -- as recognized by awards, all-star, and all-NBA selections -- was just too short to consider him a star. He is a role player who dipped his toe into the shallow end of the star pool for 3 seasons and then went back to being a role player. A really good role player, but a role player.


You were asked to find a guy who could do Dray's role and you found guys who aren't remotely similar. They can't do that role. What you're showing is you don't even understand how Draymond Green contributes to the team.

You've shown you didn't even know Dray was among the league leaders in assists for numerous years in this discussion.

Serious question. Have you ever watched Draymond Green play? Not just turned on a game with him in it. But actually focused on watching him play? Cause it feels like you've never actually spent anytime watching him play.


The bolded has already been debunked. Most years, Green hasn't even been in the top-10. No amount of gaslighting changes this fact. Reposting to show how obscene your exaggeration of Green is with regards to assists with a bonus on rebounds, another silly claim you made:

SA37 wrote:Which years has Green been top-5 in assists? Edit: Ok, I went and looked it up. As far as total assists go, there are 4 seasons he's made the top 10 (7th 15'-16 ; 9th '16-17 ; 8th '17-18' ; 6th 20'-21').

Here is the ranking on a per game basis:

14-15: 45th
15'-16': 7th
16'-17': 9th
17'-18': 7th
18'-19': 13th
19'-20': 20th
20-21: 4th
21-22: 13th
22-23: 13th
23-24: 23rd
24-25: 25th

So 1 top-5, 4 top-10s. All that to say, even if we only look at the seasons Green was a starter (11 seasons), h'es only been top-10 in 4 of them. Well below half of them.

Totally dominant.

Let's check your claim Green was "A guy well up there in rebounds" even though he's never even managed 10rpg in any season:

14-15: 23rd
15'-16': 13th
16'-17': 26th
17'-18': 25th
18'-19': 39th
19'-20': 53rd
20-21: 32nd
21-22: 36th
22-23: 37th
23-24: 33rd
24-25: 44th

So never in the top-10, only 1x in the top-20.
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Re: Draymond Green is underrated 

Post#283 » by dhsilv2 » Fri Aug 22, 2025 6:22 pm

SA37 wrote:
dhsilv2 wrote:
SA37 wrote:
Danny Green has never, ever been a top-3 guy on a title contender. There is no comparing a guy who was, at best, the 5th best player on San Antonio to Klay, who has consistently been the 2nd or 3rd option Warriors' teams.

Green's career high in ppg is 11.7. He's never made an all-star game, never made an all-NBA team. He's never received the defensive attention Klay has.

And you want to talk about arguing in bad faith and being dishonest. :roll:


Why do you just lie every time we do this stuff? Both have made an all nba defensive second team. Green has received votes 7 different years to Klay's 6, Green had two top 10's in voting while Klay 1. Both peaked 7th in voting.

Meanwhile in our 29 year XRAPM data set Green is -1.3 and in the 91st percentile of defenders. Klay is +1.0 in the 29th percentile. But lets ignore how much the data indicates the two are comparable and leave it with the facts. Voters saw these two as virtually the same and even voted Green to 2nd team over Klay in 2017.

But sure, Klay scores more points because he's a role player in a system that generates more open looks because he plays with Curry and Dray. Plus Klay is a selfish player who demands shots even if it is at the determent to the team.


Klay scores epically more, had more offensive & scoring responsibility -- especially with a liability as big as Draymond Green -- and, unlike Danny Green, has been selected to multiple all-star games and to multiple all-NBA teams.

No need to continue such an absurd discussion about an absurd comparison.


Klay is a better volume scorer. Meanwhile more lies, now calling Draymond a liability. None the less, the role Klay and Green play is identical. Their games are again nearly the same. The warriors would have lost a small amount of volume shooting which they could have offset elsewhere. Meanwhile they get a guy who generates more turnovers, blocks shots at nearly twice the clip and rebounds better. Green's scoring would increase with Curry's gravity and Green's passing. Not to mention the warrior's illegal screens. Green also gets to the rim easier, all be it...he finishes much worse there. The drop off is minimal and stylistically we are talking about nearly identical players and they were doing it while in the league at the same time. I didn't pull a comp who didn't have a similar career like Noah.
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Re: Draymond Green is underrated 

Post#284 » by dhsilv2 » Fri Aug 22, 2025 6:24 pm

SA37 wrote:
dhsilv2 wrote:
SA37 wrote:
Replacing guys on title contenders/championship teams is an exercise in massive speculation. Team building is hard and you can't just replace one guy with another even if on paper you think it might work (just like Team USA discovered you couldn't just put a team of stars together a couple of weeks in advance of a tournament and roll out the basketball).

You asked for comparable guys, and I have them to you. No one is a perfect fit, but at least I didn't try and insult everyone's intelligence by suggesting something like Danny Green in place of Klay Thompson :lol:

Again, the biggest issue with Draymond Green is his peak -- as recognized by awards, all-star, and all-NBA selections -- was just too short to consider him a star. He is a role player who dipped his toe into the shallow end of the star pool for 3 seasons and then went back to being a role player. A really good role player, but a role player.


You were asked to find a guy who could do Dray's role and you found guys who aren't remotely similar. They can't do that role. What you're showing is you don't even understand how Draymond Green contributes to the team.

You've shown you didn't even know Dray was among the league leaders in assists for numerous years in this discussion.

Serious question. Have you ever watched Draymond Green play? Not just turned on a game with him in it. But actually focused on watching him play? Cause it feels like you've never actually spent anytime watching him play.


The bolded has already been debunked. Most years, Green hasn't even been in the top-10. No amount of gaslighting changes this fact. Reposting to show how obscene your exaggeration of Green is with regards to assists with a bonus on rebounds, another silly claim you made:

SA37 wrote:Which years has Green been top-5 in assists? Edit: Ok, I went and looked it up. As far as total assists go, there are 4 seasons he's made the top 10 (7th 15'-16 ; 9th '16-17 ; 8th '17-18' ; 6th 20'-21').

Here is the ranking on a per game basis:

14-15: 45th
15'-16': 7th
16'-17': 9th
17'-18': 7th
18'-19': 13th
19'-20': 20th
20-21: 4th
21-22: 13th
22-23: 13th
23-24: 23rd
24-25: 25th

So 1 top-5, 4 top-10s. All that to say, even if we only look at the seasons Green was a starter (11 seasons), h'es only been top-10 in 4 of them. Well below half of them.

Totally dominant.

Let's check your claim Green was "A guy well up there in rebounds" even though he's never even managed 10rpg in any season:

14-15: 23rd
15'-16': 13th
16'-17': 26th
17'-18': 25th
18'-19': 39th
19'-20': 53rd
20-21: 32nd
21-22: 36th
22-23: 37th
23-24: 33rd
24-25: 44th

So never in the top-10, only 1x in the top-20.


You made the claim that stars have numerous years in the top 5/10. You didn't quantify it. Once presented with facts, you moved the goal post, while forgetting your claims that Klay was a star despite only have a single season in the top 10 in any of the generally accepted 5 major stats (points, rebounds, assists, steals, blocks). You were completely unaware that Dray had done so 4 times over his career.
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Re: Draymond Green is underrated 

Post#285 » by SA37 » Fri Aug 22, 2025 8:05 pm

dhsilv2 wrote:
Spoiler:
SA37 wrote:
dhsilv2 wrote:
You were asked to find a guy who could do Dray's role and you found guys who aren't remotely similar. They can't do that role. What you're showing is you don't even understand how Draymond Green contributes to the team.

You've shown you didn't even know Dray was among the league leaders in assists for numerous years in this discussion.

Serious question. Have you ever watched Draymond Green play? Not just turned on a game with him in it. But actually focused on watching him play? Cause it feels like you've never actually spent anytime watching him play.


The bolded has already been debunked. Most years, Green hasn't even been in the top-10. No amount of gaslighting changes this fact. Reposting to show how obscene your exaggeration of Green is with regards to assists with a bonus on rebounds, another silly claim you made:

SA37 wrote:Which years has Green been top-5 in assists? Edit: Ok, I went and looked it up. As far as total assists go, there are 4 seasons he's made the top 10 (7th 15'-16 ; 9th '16-17 ; 8th '17-18' ; 6th 20'-21').

Here is the ranking on a per game basis:

14-15: 45th
15'-16': 7th
16'-17': 9th
17'-18': 7th
18'-19': 13th
19'-20': 20th
20-21: 4th
21-22: 13th
22-23: 13th
23-24: 23rd
24-25: 25th

So 1 top-5, 4 top-10s. All that to say, even if we only look at the seasons Green was a starter (11 seasons), h'es only been top-10 in 4 of them. Well below half of them.

Totally dominant.

Let's check your claim Green was "A guy well up there in rebounds" even though he's never even managed 10rpg in any season:

14-15: 23rd
15'-16': 13th
16'-17': 26th
17'-18': 25th
18'-19': 39th
19'-20': 53rd
20-21: 32nd
21-22: 36th
22-23: 37th
23-24: 33rd
24-25: 44th

So never in the top-10, only 1x in the top-20.


You made the claim that stars have numerous years in the top 5/10. You didn't quantify it. Once presented with facts, you moved the goal post, while forgetting your claims that Klay was a star despite only have a single season in the top 10 in any of the generally accepted 5 major stats (points, rebounds, assists, steals, blocks). You were completely unaware that Dray had done so 4 times over his career.


In your extensive efforts to gaslight on Draymond Green -- including embellishing his rankings in rebounds, assists, and steals -- you seem to struggle following this convo and continue to muddle my words.

Here is my clear and extensive explanation about stars and where Klay Thompson fits :

SA37 wrote:
dhsilv2 wrote:
Spoiler:
SA37 wrote:
Addressing your points:

1. A role player, as I have been using it, means the player is not an elite, all-NBA level player. This player is not part of the primary players that shoulder the burden of carrying teams, mainly offensively. Again, stars are at least perennial all-stars, if not perennial fixtures on all-NBA teams. There are only 15 all-NBA spots, and because of certain requirements/limitations (mainly to do with positions) it isn't necessarily fully representative of the top-15 players. An easy example is years where Embiid has made the 2nd team all-NBA when he probably should have been on the 1st team. Still, the all-NBA team -- and those who get votes -- gives us a very good idea of who those players might be.

Another indicator is pay. As I've said before, some guys get paid star money when they don't deserve it, but it's a good proxy for who is valued and at what level. That Green has never been paid star money is a strong indicator he's not the star you think he is.

I looked at the list of top players for Hoopshype, ESPN, and The Ringer, I think it was, for 2023-2024 and 2024-2025 season. Hoopshype had Green at 73 & 101, ESPN had him at 55 & 66, and the Ringer had him at 50 for 2024-2025 (I couldn't find their list from the previous year)

The bottom line here is there is almost nothing supporting your claims on Green being a star.

2. I didn't say Lavine was a star; I said he had great numbers that very few players in the league could match, specifically in terms of his elite shooting and his elite scoring ability. I think he's really a 3rd wheel (like Wiggins, as an example) that could masquerade as a 2nd wheel on the right team, kind of like Jamal Murray.

3. Peak is not representative of a player if it is the minority of his career. In Green's case, it's 3 years out of 13. He's only been an all-star 4 times out of 13 years and an all-NBA player 2 years out of 13. What that all shows is that he lacks the consistency that real stars show.


Basically you're saying about 30 guys have been non role players in NBA history with some of this. Ignoring the wild take on Klay being a star earlier given he's got a smaller role on the warrior's even offensively.

But thanks, you think the best player in the league could be a role player if he does it mostly on defense. Which I think ends the need to go further. When you say it, it simply doesn't mean anything.


Klay played above his paygrade in the Warriors' system. I think he would have been somewhere in the Dan Majerle, Glen Rice, Peja Stojakoic range had he played elsewhere.

But, yes, my opinion is there are roughly 10-15 unequivocal stars at any given time in the league. These are guys who are franchise players and perennial all-NBA guys. Just to be clear, I'd say those guys currently are (no particular order Jokic, Doncic, SGA, Giannis, Tatum, Kawhi, LeBron, Curry, Embiid (when healthy), Anthony Davis (when healthy), Durant, A Edwards, Lillard, and Wemby.

The next tier -- guys who are likely perennial all-stars and in the running for all-NBA most years -- would be J Harden, C Cunningham, D Mitchell, Haliburton, J Brunson, J Butler, Ja Morant, Banchero, Zion (when healthy), T Maxey, P George, D Sabonis, D Booker, J Brown, E Mobely, KAT, K Irving.

The next tier -- borderlines all-stars -- is T Young, Z Lavine, F Wagner, J Jackson, D White, D Garland, J Murray, Lamelo Ball, T Herro, FVV, A Sengun, P Siakam, A Reaves, Wiggins, J Randle, D Bane, J Green, D DeRozan, Jalen Williams (he's likely moved into the next tier, but we need to see more), Chet, D Fox, S Barnes, Porzingis, B Beal.

I'd put Green in the next tier, which would be something like deluxe role players; all-star potential, but better as a role player: A Gordon, D Green, R Gobert, Anunoby, M Bridges, T Harris, J Allen, J McDaniels, MPJ, J Holiday, Zubac, B Portis, M Turner, PJ Washington, Cam Johnson...etc.

I haven't listed everyone, but that's the gist of it.


Given that explanation, where do Klay and the guys I compared him to fit?

    Klay: 19-3r-2a on 45-41-86 ; 5x AS, 2x All-NBA, 1x All-NBA D, 10th in MVP voting in 2014-2015, 11th in DPOY voting in 17-18

    Dan Majerle: 11-4r-3a on 43-36-74 ; 3x AS, 2x all-NBA D, 5th in DPOY voting in 92-93

    Glen Rice: 18-4r-2a on 45-40-84 ; 3x AS, 2x All-NBA ; 5th in MVP in 96-97, 11th MVP 97-98

    Peja: 17-5r-2a on 45-40-90 ; 3x AS, 1x all-NBA, 4th in MVP in 03-04, 16th in MVP in 01-02

Klay, Glen, and Peja are tier 3 stars and Marjerle is a deluxe role player.

As is, Klay is the best overall player of this group. Glen Rice probably had the highest peak, but there is an argument for Peja.

Now, if we compare Klay to some of the guys I listed in the 3rd tier:

    Klay: 19-3r-2a on 45-41-86 ; 5x AS, 2x All-NBA, 1x All-NBA D, 10th in MVP voting in 2014-2015, 11th in DPOY voting in 17-18

    D Bane: 18-4r-4a on 47-41-88 ; 0 AS games, 0 all-NBA, 0 all-NBA D, no votes for MVP or DPOY

    T Herro: 19-5r-4a on 45-38-87; 1x AS, 0 all-NBA, 0 all-NBA D, no votes for MVP or DPOY

    Z Lavine: 21-4-4 on 47-39-83; 2x AS, 0 all-NBA, 0 all-NBA D, no votes for MVP or DPOY

    B Beal: 21-4-4 on 46-37-82 ; 3x AS, 3x All-NBA, 0 all-NBA D, no votes for MVP or DPOY

This all is supremely coherent.
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Re: Draymond Green is underrated 

Post#286 » by dhsilv2 » Fri Aug 22, 2025 8:11 pm

SA37 wrote:
dhsilv2 wrote:
Spoiler:
SA37 wrote:
The bolded has already been debunked. Most years, Green hasn't even been in the top-10. No amount of gaslighting changes this fact. Reposting to show how obscene your exaggeration of Green is with regards to assists with a bonus on rebounds, another silly claim you made:



You made the claim that stars have numerous years in the top 5/10. You didn't quantify it. Once presented with facts, you moved the goal post, while forgetting your claims that Klay was a star despite only have a single season in the top 10 in any of the generally accepted 5 major stats (points, rebounds, assists, steals, blocks). You were completely unaware that Dray had done so 4 times over his career.


In your extensive efforts to gaslight on Draymond Green -- including embellishing his rankings in rebounds, assists, and steals -- you seem to struggle following this convo and continue to muddle my words.

Here is my clear and extensive explanation about stars and where Klay Thompson fits :

SA37 wrote:
dhsilv2 wrote:
Spoiler:


Basically you're saying about 30 guys have been non role players in NBA history with some of this. Ignoring the wild take on Klay being a star earlier given he's got a smaller role on the warrior's even offensively.

But thanks, you think the best player in the league could be a role player if he does it mostly on defense. Which I think ends the need to go further. When you say it, it simply doesn't mean anything.


Klay played above his paygrade in the Warriors' system. I think he would have been somewhere in the Dan Majerle, Glen Rice, Peja Stojakoic range had he played elsewhere.

But, yes, my opinion is there are roughly 10-15 unequivocal stars at any given time in the league. These are guys who are franchise players and perennial all-NBA guys. Just to be clear, I'd say those guys currently are (no particular order Jokic, Doncic, SGA, Giannis, Tatum, Kawhi, LeBron, Curry, Embiid (when healthy), Anthony Davis (when healthy), Durant, A Edwards, Lillard, and Wemby.

The next tier -- guys who are likely perennial all-stars and in the running for all-NBA most years -- would be J Harden, C Cunningham, D Mitchell, Haliburton, J Brunson, J Butler, Ja Morant, Banchero, Zion (when healthy), T Maxey, P George, D Sabonis, D Booker, J Brown, E Mobely, KAT, K Irving.

The next tier -- borderlines all-stars -- is T Young, Z Lavine, F Wagner, J Jackson, D White, D Garland, J Murray, Lamelo Ball, T Herro, FVV, A Sengun, P Siakam, A Reaves, Wiggins, J Randle, D Bane, J Green, D DeRozan, Jalen Williams (he's likely moved into the next tier, but we need to see more), Chet, D Fox, S Barnes, Porzingis, B Beal.

I'd put Green in the next tier, which would be something like deluxe role players; all-star potential, but better as a role player: A Gordon, D Green, R Gobert, Anunoby, M Bridges, T Harris, J Allen, J McDaniels, MPJ, J Holiday, Zubac, B Portis, M Turner, PJ Washington, Cam Johnson...etc.

I haven't listed everyone, but that's the gist of it.


Given that explanation, where do Klay and the guys I compared him to fit?

    Klay: 19-3r-2a on 45-41-86 ; 5x AS, 2x All-NBA, 1x All-NBA D, 10th in MVP voting in 2014-2015, 11th in DPOY voting in 17-18

    Dan Majerle: 11-4r-3a on 43-36-74 ; 3x AS, 2x all-NBA D, 5th in DPOY voting in 92-93

    Glen Rice: 18-4r-2a on 45-40-84 ; 3x AS, 2x All-NBA ; 5th in MVP in 96-97, 11th MVP 97-98

    Peja: 17-5r-2a on 45-40-90 ; 3x AS, 1x all-NBA, 4th in MVP in 03-04, 16th in MVP in 01-02

Klay, Glen, and Peja are tier 3 stars and Marjerle is a deluxe role player.

As is, Klay is the best overall player of this group. Glen Rice probably had the highest peak, but there is an argument for Peja.


Lets grant your idea that Klay is on the level of 2 clearly better players and the Rice was the best player here (LOL).

If Dray wasn't elite long enough as a 4x allstar and 2x all nba player. Then Rice wasn't either as a 3x allstar and 2x all nba.

Either Dray is your tier 3 star or Rice isn't.
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Re: Draymond Green is underrated 

Post#287 » by SA37 » Fri Aug 22, 2025 8:19 pm

dhsilv2 wrote:
Spoiler:
SA37 wrote:
dhsilv2 wrote:
You made the claim that stars have numerous years in the top 5/10. You didn't quantify it. Once presented with facts, you moved the goal post, while forgetting your claims that Klay was a star despite only have a single season in the top 10 in any of the generally accepted 5 major stats (points, rebounds, assists, steals, blocks). You were completely unaware that Dray had done so 4 times over his career.


In your extensive efforts to gaslight on Draymond Green -- including embellishing his rankings in rebounds, assists, and steals -- you seem to struggle following this convo and continue to muddle my words.

Here is my clear and extensive explanation about stars and where Klay Thompson fits :

SA37 wrote:
Klay played above his paygrade in the Warriors' system. I think he would have been somewhere in the Dan Majerle, Glen Rice, Peja Stojakoic range had he played elsewhere.

But, yes, my opinion is there are roughly 10-15 unequivocal stars at any given time in the league. These are guys who are franchise players and perennial all-NBA guys. Just to be clear, I'd say those guys currently are (no particular order Jokic, Doncic, SGA, Giannis, Tatum, Kawhi, LeBron, Curry, Embiid (when healthy), Anthony Davis (when healthy), Durant, A Edwards, Lillard, and Wemby.

The next tier -- guys who are likely perennial all-stars and in the running for all-NBA most years -- would be J Harden, C Cunningham, D Mitchell, Haliburton, J Brunson, J Butler, Ja Morant, Banchero, Zion (when healthy), T Maxey, P George, D Sabonis, D Booker, J Brown, E Mobely, KAT, K Irving.

The next tier -- borderlines all-stars -- is T Young, Z Lavine, F Wagner, J Jackson, D White, D Garland, J Murray, Lamelo Ball, T Herro, FVV, A Sengun, P Siakam, A Reaves, Wiggins, J Randle, D Bane, J Green, D DeRozan, Jalen Williams (he's likely moved into the next tier, but we need to see more), Chet, D Fox, S Barnes, Porzingis, B Beal.

I'd put Green in the next tier, which would be something like deluxe role players; all-star potential, but better as a role player: A Gordon, D Green, R Gobert, Anunoby, M Bridges, T Harris, J Allen, J McDaniels, MPJ, J Holiday, Zubac, B Portis, M Turner, PJ Washington, Cam Johnson...etc.

I haven't listed everyone, but that's the gist of it.


Given that explanation, where do Klay and the guys I compared him to fit?

    Klay: 19-3r-2a on 45-41-86 ; 5x AS, 2x All-NBA, 1x All-NBA D, 10th in MVP voting in 2014-2015, 11th in DPOY voting in 17-18

    Dan Majerle: 11-4r-3a on 43-36-74 ; 3x AS, 2x all-NBA D, 5th in DPOY voting in 92-93

    Glen Rice: 18-4r-2a on 45-40-84 ; 3x AS, 2x All-NBA ; 5th in MVP in 96-97, 11th MVP 97-98

    Peja: 17-5r-2a on 45-40-90 ; 3x AS, 1x all-NBA, 4th in MVP in 03-04, 16th in MVP in 01-02

Klay, Glen, and Peja are tier 3 stars and Marjerle is a deluxe role player.

As is, Klay is the best overall player of this group. Glen Rice probably had the highest peak, but there is an argument for Peja.


Lets grant your idea that Klay is on the level of 2 clearly better players and the Rice was the best player here (LOL).

If Dray wasn't elite long enough as a 4x allstar and 2x all nba player. Then Rice wasn't either as a 3x allstar and 2x all nba.

Either Dray is your tier 3 star or Rice isn't.


Rice was the uncontested #1 option in Miami and in Charlotte. He was the clear 3rd option when he went to the Lakers. Draymond Green has never been the #1 option and has been able to hide behind Durant, Curry, and Klay his entire career. And you continue to get terms confused: it clearly says in tier 3 these are borderline all-stars. If they're borderline, they're not going to have been selected less often than they've been selected.

No team has ever -- or ever would -- make Green the #1 option.

In any case, Green, at his peak, was a tier 3 guy. The thing is, it was 3 years. The rest of his career he's been a deluxe role player, which is why he's only seen 1 more all-star game and 0 all-NBA selections since his peak.

So when we look at Green's ENTIRE career, we get a deluxe role player.
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Re: Draymond Green is underrated 

Post#288 » by dhsilv2 » Fri Aug 22, 2025 9:20 pm

SA37 wrote:
dhsilv2 wrote:
Spoiler:
SA37 wrote:
In your extensive efforts to gaslight on Draymond Green -- including embellishing his rankings in rebounds, assists, and steals -- you seem to struggle following this convo and continue to muddle my words.

Here is my clear and extensive explanation about stars and where Klay Thompson fits :



Given that explanation, where do Klay and the guys I compared him to fit?

    Klay: 19-3r-2a on 45-41-86 ; 5x AS, 2x All-NBA, 1x All-NBA D, 10th in MVP voting in 2014-2015, 11th in DPOY voting in 17-18

    Dan Majerle: 11-4r-3a on 43-36-74 ; 3x AS, 2x all-NBA D, 5th in DPOY voting in 92-93

    Glen Rice: 18-4r-2a on 45-40-84 ; 3x AS, 2x All-NBA ; 5th in MVP in 96-97, 11th MVP 97-98

    Peja: 17-5r-2a on 45-40-90 ; 3x AS, 1x all-NBA, 4th in MVP in 03-04, 16th in MVP in 01-02

Klay, Glen, and Peja are tier 3 stars and Marjerle is a deluxe role player.

As is, Klay is the best overall player of this group. Glen Rice probably had the highest peak, but there is an argument for Peja.


Lets grant your idea that Klay is on the level of 2 clearly better players and the Rice was the best player here (LOL).

If Dray wasn't elite long enough as a 4x allstar and 2x all nba player. Then Rice wasn't either as a 3x allstar and 2x all nba.

Either Dray is your tier 3 star or Rice isn't.


Rice was the uncontested #1 option in Miami and in Charlotte. He was the clear 3rd option when he went to the Lakers. Draymond Green has never been the #1 option and has been able to hide behind Durant, Curry, and Klay his entire career. And you continue to get terms confused: it clearly says in tier 3 these are borderline all-stars. If they're borderline, they're not going to have been selected less often than they've been selected.

No team has ever -- or ever would -- make Green the #1 option.

In any case, Green, at his peak, was a tier 3 guy. The thing is, it was 3 years. The rest of his career he's been a deluxe role player, which is why he's only seen 1 more all-star game and 0 all-NBA selections since his peak.

So when we look at Green's ENTIRE career, we get a deluxe role player.


Nobody would ever make a LOT of guys we've already discussed as stars into first options. You accepted Stockton is a star when nobody would ever make him a primary option either.

My point from the start here has been to point out the either you make a clear statement that to you a "non role player" is someone who scores and thus doesn't even have to be a good player, let alone an impact player. Or your criteria will not be such that you can articulate it in a way that Green doesn't fit.

And I think I've proven that more than effectively.

You don't want to call Draymond anything but a role player, but here we are, 100 messages in and you still can't create a consistent argument that holds.

You want to dismiss defense, so we did that. But then you tried to reference the top 75 list where Green very clearly would fit right at home with many on the list. You realize it would be crazy to ignore the all time great point guards who didn't score. But you forget Dray had a longer time as a top assist guy in the league than someone like Rice did as an allstar level player.

You're now trying to argue that Klay is on par (peaked behind), Rice a guy who will never get into the hall of fame or make any all time list. But Dray, who will be in the hall and will be on these lists for years to come, isn't as good as Klay.

And likely this all comes down to that you didn't remember or realize that Draymond was the defacto Warrior's point guard and was actually important to their offense. So just to paint that, here are there actual offensive contributions in the regular season and playoffs. As you can clearly see Day contributed more on offense most years and especially in the playoffs than Klay did. FYI if I had per game I'd have used it, I highly doubt it would change anything, but you use what you got.

Points + Assist Points per 100 Regular Season (playoffs)

Dray
2015 31.6 (35.9)
2016 43.4 (38.1)
2017 39.3 (37.8)
2018 40.8 38.0
2019 35.8 (41.9)

Klay
2015 43.2 (34.8)
2016 39.0 (41.6)
2017 38.3 (27.2)
2018 36.1 (31.3)
2019 38.0 (32.2)
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Re: Draymond Green is underrated 

Post#289 » by SA37 » Fri Aug 22, 2025 9:54 pm

dhsilv2 wrote:
SA37 wrote:
dhsilv2 wrote:
Spoiler:


Lets grant your idea that Klay is on the level of 2 clearly better players and the Rice was the best player here (LOL).

If Dray wasn't elite long enough as a 4x allstar and 2x all nba player. Then Rice wasn't either as a 3x allstar and 2x all nba.

Either Dray is your tier 3 star or Rice isn't.


Rice was the uncontested #1 option in Miami and in Charlotte. He was the clear 3rd option when he went to the Lakers. Draymond Green has never been the #1 option and has been able to hide behind Durant, Curry, and Klay his entire career. And you continue to get terms confused: it clearly says in tier 3 these are borderline all-stars. If they're borderline, they're not going to have been selected less often than they've been selected.

No team has ever -- or ever would -- make Green the #1 option.

In any case, Green, at his peak, was a tier 3 guy. The thing is, it was 3 years. The rest of his career he's been a deluxe role player, which is why he's only seen 1 more all-star game and 0 all-NBA selections since his peak.

So when we look at Green's ENTIRE career, we get a deluxe role player.


Nobody would ever make a LOT of guys we've already discussed as stars into first options. You accepted Stockton is a star when nobody would ever make him a primary option either.

My point from the start here has been to point out the either you make a clear statement that to you a "non role player" is someone who scores and thus doesn't even have to be a good player, let alone an impact player. Or your criteria will not be such that you can articulate it in a way that Green doesn't fit.

And I think I've proven that more than effectively.

You don't want to call Draymond anything but a role player, but here we are, 100 messages in and you still can't create a consistent argument that holds.

You want to dismiss defense, so we did that. But then you tried to reference the top 75 list where Green very clearly would fit right at home with many on the list. You realize it would be crazy to ignore the all time great point guards who didn't score. But you forget Dray had a longer time as a top assist guy in the league than someone like Rice did as an allstar level player.

You're now trying to argue that Klay is on par (peaked behind), Rice a guy who will never get into the hall of fame or make any all time list. But Dray, who will be in the hall and will be on these lists for years to come, isn't as good as Klay.

And likely this all comes down to that you didn't remember or realize that Draymond was the defacto Warrior's point guard and was actually important to their offense.


I literally just said D Green was a tier 3 guy at his peak. The other 10 years, he's been a role player. As I explained before, guys can play one level above or below their tier. D Green's tier is a deluxe role player. He played one level above his level -- deluxe role player -- for 3 years. But most of his career, he has not played like a star and he hasn't had to because he had real stars on his team (Durant and Curry).

Similarly, Klay is a tier 3 guy, but he's been a tier 2 guy for a couple of seasons when Golden St needed him to be the #2 option. As you've pointed out, his production dropped off and he reverted back to his tier. At this point, after the injuries, Klay is a deluxe role player -- a level below his tier. The current iteration of Klay would qualify as 3 and D.

You're still trying to gaslight us with Green's assists. The majority of his career he has not been a top assist guy. Period. You keep harping on his assists and so on, but Steph Curry has a higher career average for assists than Draymond does. Steph is 29th all-time in assists. Draymond? 74th. For reference, DeMar DeRozan -- not exactly Mr. Assists -- is 78th. If Draymond gets his expected ~1,000 more assists over 3 seasons, he'd be roughly 43rd or 44th all-time.

And, yes, to me Klay Thompson was a more important player than Draymond in Golden State's system.
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Re: Draymond Green is underrated 

Post#290 » by dhsilv2 » Fri Aug 22, 2025 10:08 pm

SA37 wrote:Steph Curry has a higher career average for assists than Draymond does.


Now obviously this is due to the warrior's system under Jackson mostly but unrelated to this topic, you have me wondering.

Curry vs Dray assist points per 100

2015 - 26.1 vs 13.6
2016 - 21.4 vs 23.9
2017 - 21.5 vs 24.2
2018 - 20.3 vs 24.5
2019 - 16.9 vs 24.6
2021 - 18.0 vs 31.3
2022 - 20.7 vs 28.2
2023 - 20.1 vs 25.0
2024 - 17.2 vs 25.2
2025 - 20.7 vs 22.6

Interesting, kinda really drills down the value of Dray's passing, especially given his low gravity as a shooter post his apex. Also shows that he's never dropped off as a passer, just less minutes and more missed games due to injuries, age, and those long playoff runs.
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Re: Draymond Green is underrated 

Post#291 » by floppymoose » Sat Aug 23, 2025 6:26 am

SpreeS wrote:
floppymoose wrote:If we are using a metrics based approach, rapm is the best way i know to judge Draymond's value. And he has been a top 10 player in the league by that scale for many of his years playing.

3y rapm league rank. (source: https://www.nbarapm.com/player/Draymond_Green)

Code: Select all

2014    28
2015    7
2016    3
2017    3
2018    7
2019    18
2020    33
2021    19
2022    38
2023    16
2024    11
2025    3


5 years in top 10, 9 years in top 20.


Ray Allen def rapm rank (4y)
[….]

So tell me how Ray Allen became way better defender at 35/36y


I’m not really interested in whether Allen’s defensive rapm passes some eyeball test, because i dont actually put nearly as much weight into drapm or orapm as i do on overall rapm, which us what i quoted when discussing Dray.
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Re: Draymond Green is underrated 

Post#292 » by dhsilv2 » Sat Aug 23, 2025 6:32 am

SA37 wrote:No amount of gaslighting changes this fact.


As this was said a few times I just wanted to cover this. SA37 don't know what gaslighting is.

manipulate (someone) using psychological methods into questioning their own sanity or powers of reasoning.


Gaslighting is what SA has been doing over and over here. This has been the reason that I've continued this topic.

When I bring up why Danny Green is a comp for klay, he tried to gaslight with defense.

When 70's fan and him got into the 75 stuff, he tried to gaslight over all nba selections in terms of all nba picks.

When he brought up top 5/10 in major stats while green had more of those than his examples. Gaslighting.

Gaslighting isn't posting the reality. It's trying to start with facts like dray scores 8.7 points pre game for his career and gaslight people into thinking that mean's he's not a major offensive contributor.

Even calling me out for gaslighting is ultimately proof SA was glasslighting this whole time. Now it's whatever. He's now accepted Dray was a star and not a role player. SO we can all move on. But for those reading this and lets be honest most of us don't know off hand was gaslighting is. That's what it is and that's what SA did most of this topic before admitting Dray was a star. Which is funny, I never asked for him to be called a star. I think the idea he thinks there a role players and stars is beyond wild. There's like 40% or the league who imo should be between the two. But that's SA's take. Dray is a star when only 15 guys a year can be called that.
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Re: Draymond Green is underrated 

Post#293 » by Ryoga Hibiki » Sat Aug 23, 2025 9:37 am

Just a question, how good a realistically built team, with a payroll around the 1st apron, can be while giving a 30% max to prime Green?
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Re: Draymond Green is underrated 

Post#294 » by Ryoga Hibiki » Sat Aug 23, 2025 9:44 am

dhsilv2 wrote:Green absolutely could replace Klay. He has the exact same skillset, only he's a better defender and a slightly less reliable shooter. In terms of what Klay actually brings Green creates nearly identical gravity towards the 3 point line and has proven he can do this on multiple championship teams, even doing it in a very similar offense to what Kerr runs for the warriors. He even had multiple big scoring games in the finals. This is a guy who's literally played the Klay role in the finals. This isn't even a difficult one to see.

Klay creates advantages with his movements, Green doesn't, he just finishes.
They are at very different levels, as offensive players.
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Re: Draymond Green is underrated 

Post#295 » by SA37 » Sat Aug 23, 2025 2:35 pm

dhsilv2 wrote:
SA37 wrote:No amount of gaslighting changes this fact.


As this was said a few times I just wanted to cover this. SA37 don't know what gaslighting is.

manipulate (someone) using psychological methods into questioning their own sanity or powers of reasoning.


Gaslighting is what SA has been doing over and over here. This has been the reason that I've continued this topic.

When I bring up why Danny Green is a comp for klay, he tried to gaslight with defense.

When 70's fan and him got into the 75 stuff, he tried to gaslight over all nba selections in terms of all nba picks.

When he brought up top 5/10 in major stats while green had more of those than his examples. Gaslighting.

Gaslighting isn't posting the reality. It's trying to start with facts like dray scores 8.7 points pre game for his career and gaslight people into thinking that mean's he's not a major offensive contributor.

Even calling me out for gaslighting is ultimately proof SA was glasslighting this whole time. Now it's whatever. He's now accepted Dray was a star and not a role player. SO we can all move on. But for those reading this and lets be honest most of us don't know off hand was gaslighting is. That's what it is and that's what SA did most of this topic before admitting Dray was a star. Which is funny, I never asked for him to be called a star. I think the idea he thinks there a role players and stars is beyond wild. There's like 40% or the league who imo should be between the two. But that's SA's take. Dray is a star when only 15 guys a year can be called that.


Your reading comprehension is suspect.

I didn't say Green was a star. I said during his peak, he played like a tier 3 star, which was 1 level over his actual tier: deluxe role player. The vast majority of Green's career he's been a role player and that is shown by the fact he never got star money, Golden St has continued to acquire stars trying because they needed better players than Green, by the fact he has only made 1 AS game since his peak, by the fact he hasn't made a single all-NBA team since his peak, and where has been ranked by all the publications that rank players.

No amount of defense makes up for this fact. He's the PF version of Gobert: a limited player who has been overrated -- not underrated, as the OP posited -- by people who believe they know something everyone else doesn't.
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Re: Draymond Green is underrated 

Post#296 » by SA37 » Sat Aug 23, 2025 2:37 pm

Ryoga Hibiki wrote:Just a question, how good a realistically built team, with a payroll around the 1st apron, can be while giving a 30% max to prime Green?


They likely struggle to make the playoffs. You'd need at least 2 players who were better than Green, if not 3, and you'd only be able to accomplish that if you had an OKC situation where you had 3 players drafted all around the same time or if at least one of the better players was on a rookie contract.

The other thing I'd point out is Green has proven to be a very good facilitator in a high-movement offense with players who don't need the ball. That is a very unusual, specific type of teammate. There's no guarantee Green would be as effective with players who did not excel at playing without the ball.

Probably the most likely comp here is how Bam Adebayo has been used in Miami or Sabonis has been used in Sacramento, and that's probably a best-case scenario given Adebayo and Sabonis are superior players to Green and Miami has been a perennial play-in team over the last ~5 years, while Sacramento has been a borderline playoff team.
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Re: Draymond Green is underrated 

Post#297 » by Slimjimzv » Sat Aug 23, 2025 3:19 pm

The NBA would have been better off if Draymond had never played in it. Dude sucks. He's an overrated hack that succeeded with a combination of cheap tricks and riding Steph's jock. I hate that the idiots in broadcasting are going to give this doofus a voice when he retires. I was hoping to never see or hear from him again.
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Re: Draymond Green is underrated 

Post#298 » by xdrta+ » Sat Aug 23, 2025 11:54 pm

Slimjimzv wrote:The NBA would have been better off if Draymond had never played in it. Dude sucks. He's an overrated hack that succeeded with a combination of cheap tricks and riding Steph's jock. I hate that the idiots in broadcasting are going to give this doofus a voice when he retires. I was hoping to never see or hear from him again.


Geez, tell us how you really feel. :lol:
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Re: Draymond Green is underrated 

Post#299 » by nazario » Sun Aug 24, 2025 12:55 am

dhsilv2 wrote:
SA37 wrote:Steph Curry has a higher career average for assists than Draymond does.


Now obviously this is due to the warrior's system under Jackson mostly but unrelated to this topic, you have me wondering.

Curry vs Dray assist points per 100

2015 - 26.1 vs 13.6
2016 - 21.4 vs 23.9
2017 - 21.5 vs 24.2
2018 - 20.3 vs 24.5
2019 - 16.9 vs 24.6
2021 - 18.0 vs 31.3
2022 - 20.7 vs 28.2
2023 - 20.1 vs 25.0
2024 - 17.2 vs 25.2
2025 - 20.7 vs 22.6

Interesting, kinda really drills down the value of Dray's passing, especially given his low gravity as a shooter post his apex. Also shows that he's never dropped off as a passer, just less minutes and more missed games due to injuries, age, and those long playoff runs.


I'll grant you his passing in his prime was very valuable. But i'd say his playmaking has been overrated in importance as his gravity - or in other terms ability to draw pressure upon himself - has vanished completely. IE, after 2019. He can't create advantages for others by his own actions. The fact that he leads Steph in assist points per 100 after that point doesn't, in my opinion, mean what you think it means. With the limited offensive rosters the Warriors have had the last 5 years it mostly means that Draymond has the opportunity to pass to Curry, or can take advantage of his movement to pass to others, while Curry has had to pass to.. who? Or had who to create extra opportunities for him to pass?

If its just passing he is still good. But i'd suggest we don't add extra value to it because he has low gravity. In reality, the fact that defenses completely ignores him now takes away a lot from his value as a -playmaker- and more points to others having to work extra hard to make up for it.
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Re: Draymond Green is underrated 

Post#300 » by Larry Ellison » Sun Aug 24, 2025 2:55 am

OP question was whether Green is underrated. After reading this entire thread, I think the answer is:

1. Green is not underrated by Warriors fans. We know how integral he was to the championships.
2. Green is not underrated league wide. I see many fans of other teams who have posted and appreciate Green's game.
3. Green is underrated by SA37. Not a personal attack on you SA37, it's just that you have been by far the most prolific advocate in this thread of the position that Green is not as good of a player as people think. I simply disagree with your assessment. I do give you credit for making substantive arguments as opposed to the typical "Draymond hate" that we see sometimes.

I will say that players whose biggest impact occurs on the defensive end tend to be underrated. Green is an all time defensive great. If the Warriors had not won 4 championships, then yeah, maybe Green would have been underrated. But he got the opportunity to show what he can do on the biggest stage. He gets his flowers from most people for his basketball skills. So not underrated. He also gets deserved criticism for the many times he has lost his cool and engaged in inexcusable conduct like punching Poole, choking Gobert, and other similar incidents. But that is not the subject of this thread.

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