Moderator: JaysRule15
vaff87 wrote:Randle McMurphy wrote:vaff87 wrote:
Those other guys all have impressive defensive metrics, as well:
Are we seeing the best defensive season by an outfielder, ever?
Varsho’s rate stats are better than all those guys, would be leading that category too had he played a full season
Clarke has only played 47 games.
galacticos2 wrote:MLB needs to introduce an Amnesty clause. Bautista would be my first victim.
brwnman wrote:Los_29 wrote:brwnman wrote:It's not like the Jays were picking between Kirk/Moreno. They also had Jansen. So the decision was between 3 catchers and which one they were going to trade. Trading Kirk would have been the best option in a win now move since he had B2B disappointing seasons and was worse than Moreno in both.
Not only did the D'Backs trade the guy who is an awful hitter, they got a better hitting LF and kept the best player in the deal.
Hard to think of a bigger opportunity wasted in the Shatkins era than this one.
EDIT - 3 consecutive years where D'Backs have won this trade but the sadist Varshonites want this thread to continue because "there's always next year"
D’Backs are 62-66 and Moreno has struggled to stay healthy and has made no improvements over the past three years. Unfortunately what we thought about Moreno has turned out to be true. He doesn’t have any pop. Varsho nearly has as many homers in 40 games as Moreno has in his entire career with the D’Backs.
Trade has worked out really well for us considering how productive Kirk has been and how much of an impact player Varsho is when healthy.
Since you brought up records, D'Backs made the WS in Moreno's first year. Jays had to sell last year (largely due to Kirk and Varsho struggling and not providing the team offense that they desperately needed). Feels like it worked out way better for the D'Backs than us based on that fact. Not only that, they're in a much harder division than the Jays the last 3 years.
"No pop" Moreno has been a better hitter than Varsho & Kirk since the start of 2023. And had a better HR rate than Kirk in 2023/24 combined. His lack of power hasn't hindered him being a more productive hitter than both of them.
Los_29 wrote:brwnman wrote:Los_29 wrote:
D’Backs are 62-66 and Moreno has struggled to stay healthy and has made no improvements over the past three years. Unfortunately what we thought about Moreno has turned out to be true. He doesn’t have any pop. Varsho nearly has as many homers in 40 games as Moreno has in his entire career with the D’Backs.
Trade has worked out really well for us considering how productive Kirk has been and how much of an impact player Varsho is when healthy.
Since you brought up records, D'Backs made the WS in Moreno's first year. Jays had to sell last year (largely due to Kirk and Varsho struggling and not providing the team offense that they desperately needed). Feels like it worked out way better for the D'Backs than us based on that fact. Not only that, they're in a much harder division than the Jays the last 3 years.
"No pop" Moreno has been a better hitter than Varsho & Kirk since the start of 2023. And had a better HR rate than Kirk in 2023/24 combined. His lack of power hasn't hindered him being a more productive hitter than both of them.
Most important thing is Varsho has been the better PLAYER. The best player in the deal. How has it worked out better for the D’Backs? They are actually trending in the wrong direction and Moreno has completely stagnated as a player.
brwnman wrote:Except Moreno was better than Kirk the last two years - but if we ignore those years - sure. But I’m pretty sure when they made that trade, they were looking at 2023 season to compete and not looking at 2025 as the season to compete.
And I was in favour of trading Jansen of the 3, but he had the lowest value at the 3. So Kirk or Moreno were the likelier option. Moreno had the highest value of the 3. There were concerns about Kirk’s durability because of his weight - and there was concern that 2022 would be his best offensive season. He was seen as the safe floor option offensively, but he fell off in 2023/24.
SaveTheHens wrote:brwnman wrote:Except Moreno was better than Kirk the last two years - but if we ignore those years - sure. But I’m pretty sure when they made that trade, they were looking at 2023 season to compete and not looking at 2025 as the season to compete.
And I was in favour of trading Jansen of the 3, but he had the lowest value at the 3. So Kirk or Moreno were the likelier option. Moreno had the highest value of the 3. There were concerns about Kirk’s durability because of his weight - and there was concern that 2022 would be his best offensive season. He was seen as the safe floor option offensively, but he fell off in 2023/24.
I hope you're still able to enjoy this team and not just cringing every time Varsho gets a hit... Kinda weird though man this teams killing it and you still want to argue how 'wrong' the move was. If you really wanna hold onto that belief I mean at least take it as a win-win for both teams and be happy that it meets our timeline in such a way where we've found the success we've had. Would 10/10 do it over and over again, very happy to have kept Kirk, very happy that Varsho's offensive prowess wasn't just an early season fling. Let it go, there's a shitton of negative stuff in life we can hang onto but it'll just emotionally drain you and offer nothing in return. Especially when it leads to potentially cheering against your team, that's not why you're watching!
s e n s i wrote:moreno jockriders every time varsho does something good for the team they support, the toronto blue jays
galacticos2 wrote:MLB needs to introduce an Amnesty clause. Bautista would be my first victim.
Randle McMurphy wrote:
Randle McMurphy wrote:
Best outfield defender in baseball and it isn't close. What a trade.
Mehar wrote:
I am glad that Varsho is doing much better hitting wise though in 2025, after being one of the worst hitting everyday starting players in MLB in both 2023 and 2024. If Varsho can be this type of hitter over the course of a 162 Game 2026 Season, then I will be the first to say the Jays should do what it takes to keep him long-term. Good thing the Jays can make that evaluation over the next year, since they can offer him arbitration of around 10 million this off-season.
raptorforlife88 wrote:Mehar wrote:
I am glad that Varsho is doing much better hitting wise though in 2025, after being one of the worst hitting everyday starting players in MLB in both 2023 and 2024. If Varsho can be this type of hitter over the course of a 162 Game 2026 Season, then I will be the first to say the Jays should do what it takes to keep him long-term. Good thing the Jays can make that evaluation over the next year, since they can offer him arbitration of around 10 million this off-season.
This is just wildly wrong. Varsho plays CF in case you were unaware of that. In 2024 Varsho had a 99 wRC+. Fangraphs has 31 guys who have CF as their primary position. And who also had at least 400 plate appearances. Among those guys Varsho is in a tie for 16th in for wRC+ because lots of CF hit fairly poorly. Varsho was both average in terms of his placement among CFers and he was also a tick below average overall as a hitter.
One of the worst hitting everyday starting players is just factually wrong for 2024.
Mehar wrote:raptorforlife88 wrote:Mehar wrote:
I am glad that Varsho is doing much better hitting wise though in 2025, after being one of the worst hitting everyday starting players in MLB in both 2023 and 2024. If Varsho can be this type of hitter over the course of a 162 Game 2026 Season, then I will be the first to say the Jays should do what it takes to keep him long-term. Good thing the Jays can make that evaluation over the next year, since they can offer him arbitration of around 10 million this off-season.
This is just wildly wrong. Varsho plays CF in case you were unaware of that. In 2024 Varsho had a 99 wRC+. Fangraphs has 31 guys who have CF as their primary position. And who also had at least 400 plate appearances. Among those guys Varsho is in a tie for 16th in for wRC+ because lots of CF hit fairly poorly. Varsho was both average in terms of his placement among CFers and he was also a tick below average overall as a hitter.
One of the worst hitting everyday starting players is just factually wrong for 2024.
How is it wildly wrong? In terms of BA, OPS, SLG and On Base- Varsho was one of the worst everyday players in MLB in 2023 and 2024 with his plate appearances. Who gives a you know what if lots of other Centerfielders hit poorly.
That is irrelevant to my point. Varsho sucked in all the key metrics you look at based on his plate appearances, and he was way below average. Just because other Centerfielders sucked also is irrelevant.
raptorforlife88 wrote:Mehar wrote:raptorforlife88 wrote:
This is just wildly wrong. Varsho plays CF in case you were unaware of that. In 2024 Varsho had a 99 wRC+. Fangraphs has 31 guys who have CF as their primary position. And who also had at least 400 plate appearances. Among those guys Varsho is in a tie for 16th in for wRC+ because lots of CF hit fairly poorly. Varsho was both average in terms of his placement among CFers and he was also a tick below average overall as a hitter.
One of the worst hitting everyday starting players is just factually wrong for 2024.
How is it wildly wrong? In terms of BA, OPS, SLG and On Base- Varsho was one of the worst everyday players in MLB in 2023 and 2024 with his plate appearances. Who gives a you know what if lots of other Centerfielders hit poorly.
That is irrelevant to my point. Varsho sucked in all the key metrics you look at based on his plate appearances, and he was way below average. Just because other Centerfielders sucked also is irrelevant.
He wasn't one of the worst already because his wRC+ was 99. Which means he was basically average as a hitter in the league that year regardless of position. It's not complicated, I have no idea how you're failing to understand this. He can't be one of the worst, if he was hitting at league average last year.
Moving past that different positions have different kinds of hitters because of defensive requirements at those positions. Like catcher or CF. You don't expect your CF to hit like you're 1B. That would be stupid.
Mehar wrote:raptorforlife88 wrote:Mehar wrote:How is it wildly wrong? In terms of BA, OPS, SLG and On Base- Varsho was one of the worst everyday players in MLB in 2023 and 2024 with his plate appearances. Who gives a you know what if lots of other Centerfielders hit poorly.
That is irrelevant to my point. Varsho sucked in all the key metrics you look at based on his plate appearances, and he was way below average. Just because other Centerfielders sucked also is irrelevant.
He wasn't one of the worst already because his wRC+ was 99. Which means he was basically average as a hitter in the league that year regardless of position. It's not complicated, I have no idea how you're failing to understand this. He can't be one of the worst, if he was hitting at league average last year.
Moving past that different positions have different kinds of hitters because of defensive requirements at those positions. Like catcher or CF. You don't expect your CF to hit like you're 1B. That would be stupid.
I am not a fan of strictly using WRC to evaluate a player's contribution, but Varsho's WRC was 85 in 2023 which was terrible and below average. So, over a two year period from 2023 and 2024 it was 85 and 99. How is that hitting at league average?
You think Varsho's atrocious .214 BA last year, and .293 ON Base was league average also? Also his terrible OPS numbers the past two years? You are the one failing to understand what constitutes league average. Varsho was not hitting at league average and based on metrics like On Base, OPS and BA- was one of the worst everyday starting players in 2023 and 2024 based on his plate appearances.
