James Harden or Manu Ginobili, for a single year run

[CIN-C-STAR]

This is a silly conversation imo. Put Manu on a team with no Duncan, Parker, Pop, and force him to carry a team as the best player, adding 6-8 mpg more than hes ever averaged, while having to beat the double team on nearly every possession, and watch his efficiency and defense drop. Manu leading an average squad would be play-in at best, but more likely to miss the playoffs.

Manu was blessed to be in one of, if not the best situation for a player of his level and talent in the last 30 years of the league.

Yeah good thing we got to see how bad Manu was as the number one option on a team with Argentina, where all he did was lead them to a gold medal in 2004, the greatest and arguably most important basketball feat of this century imo.
Certainly nothing approaching the lofty heights of “Playoff James Harden”
Harden busted his ass in 2012 though, back when he still had some dawg in him, I’ll give him that. But Manu got him back in 2017.

Those are 2 different animals and you know it. Or at least you should.

Yes, beating Team USA in a medal game, the only time it’s happened since NBA players were allowed to participate, as the #1 option, is a far greater accomplishment than whatever Harden’s greatest accomplishment has been as the #1 option.
Totally different animals, as you said.

[The Master]

This thread is insane lol.

Ginobili is a 2 time all star
Harden has won mvp before (could have won multiple times) and been on 11 all star teams. Cmon now lol

Yeah, but this thread is about one season only - and it's much closer than it looks like from the first view - considering that it is indeed arguable that Manu was the best Spurs player in the 2005 playoffs, with ridiculous advanced boxscore production and on/off metrics.

9.2 BPM and +19.9 ON/OFF in the playoffs is one of the most underrated playoff runs ever, IMHO. Not saying I'd choose Ginobili - there's still strong differentiation in terms of role of both of them in any season after Harden's departure from OKC - but let's say there's point of discussion here.

The more surprising are all these takes in this thread, kinda going into overall prime assessment and comparison, saying it's close or whatever - and besides 2005, it's definitely not close: Harden played much more possessions, on much higher volume, while still being deadly efficient as a player.

What's second-best season of Manu? 2007? 7.8 BPM and +8.7 ON/OFF in the RS and 6.0 BPM and +5.0 ON/OFF in the playoffs on 17-6-4 production from the bench?

Harden in 2020 was at 9.6 BPM and +9.1 ON/OFF in the regular season, and 9.4 BPM and +9.8 ON/OFF in the playoffs, while averaging 34-7-8 and 30-6-8, respectively, and while playing much more possessions (37 MPG). And I don't know if that's even the best Harden season.

I can imagine someone being super super high on 2005 run by Manu, that's at least arguable, but besides that year - it's not close, really.

And the whole 2005 Manu vs 2018 Harden is very much apples to oranges type of comparison itself.

[Mirotic12]

Yes, beating Team USA in a medal game, the only time it’s happened since NBA players were allowed to participate, as the #1 option, is a far greater accomplishment than whatever Harden’s greatest accomplishment has been as the #1 option.
Totally different animals, as you said.

I would definitely take Manu over Harden, but Manu on that 2004 Argentina team is starting to take on almost Wilt / A. Sabonis like exagerrations.

There is a lot of revised history of what actually happened in those Argentina teams.

It was an absolutely insanely stacked team, loaded with guys that had solid NBA and EuroLeague careers. Scola was the first option in the half court set. The offense was heavily dependent on the creation and pick and roll setups of the guards Sanchez and Montecchia.

Scola was the key player of the team in the gold medal game, not Manu, which was against Italy, not USA.

Never mind the same USA team lost to Italy, Puerto Rico, and Lithuania, and should have also lost to Greece, if not for a couple of bad calls.

Yes, Manu was certainly great for sure, but nowadays people are exagerrating what he did big time. People imply that he was carrying some team by himself and that they beat the normal US team. Neither are remotely true though.

[The Servant]

I don't see Manu carrying a team of his own to the post season. Maybe now that the play in is in place but this guy missed a lot of games. Peaked at 19/4/5 on 61% TS.

I'm going James Harden with 36/7.5/6.5 on 62% TS because he has proven to be able to scale up his production where as if Manu is the guy people are gearing in on instead of the 3rd threat coming off the bench these are HUGELY different roles. I watched the Suns and Spurs battles during the 2000s, I watched prime Manu so don't call it casual. Being the 3rd option and the 1st are vastly different.

Yeah good thing we got to see how bad Manu was as the number one option on a team with Argentina, where all he did was lead them to a gold medal in 2004, the greatest and arguably most important basketball feat of this century imo.
Certainly nothing approaching the lofty heights of “Playoff James Harden”
Harden busted his ass in 2012 though, back when he still had some dawg in him, I’ll give him that. But Manu got him back in 2017.

Those are 2 different animals and you know it. Or at least you should.

Yes, beating Team USA in a medal game, the only time it’s happened since NBA players were allowed to participate, as the #1 option, is a far greater accomplishment than whatever Harden’s greatest accomplishment has been as the #1 option.
Totally different animals, as you said.

And yet Manu never chased the bag. Manu never stepped out on his own team. Manu never thought/believed in himself as a star. Say what you will, people who believe in themselves don't spend 15 years coming off the bench and 15 years of not chasing their big contracts.

[Diop]

Manu was happy to be team first to win championships. People saying he was in a "lucky situation", Harden could have played the same role for OKC but refused. Forced his way out as he was "too good" to not be the alpha.

[Diop]

For those pimping out Hardens stars, Westbrook's 2017 OKC season he averaged a triple double with a higher per and bpm than Harden every reached.

Does that mean Weatbrook is the better player? The one you would want to lead your team?

[JRoy]

Ginobli

[canada_dry]

By some of the daft takes in here...you'd have to believe joe Johnson is better than Manu because he stepped away from his role on the suns and did what he did in Atlanta. You'd have to believe manu was incapable of at least that much.

Which is...insane. im sorry. But Absolutely insane.

Sent from my SM-G960W using RealGM mobile app

[The Master]

For those pimping out Hardens stars, Westbrook's 2017 OKC season he averaged a triple double with a higher per and bpm than Harden every reached.

Does that mean Weatbrook is the better player? The one you would want to lead your team?

There's a significant difference between anchoring a 47-35 team with amazing stats, and doing the same on 65-17 team which was a CP3's injury away from possibly eliminating one of the greatest teams ever assembled. The latter is much more impressive. Also, Westbrook in 2017 averaged the same PER, VORP and 0.1 higher BPM than Harden in his best season (while playing on much worse team, so it was easier for him to do so), so it's not like he even outproduced Harden statistically, all things considered.

[Statlanta]

Harden easily. Ginobili was injury prone as a bench player. Even considering Ginobili as a playoff riser I'd rather have the consistent minute player.

[og15]

Manu was happy to be team first to win championships. People saying he was in a "lucky situation", Harden could have played the same role for OKC but refused. Forced his way out as he was "too good" to not be the alpha.

I don't recall this happening in OKC, where did you get this narrative from?

The Thunder didn't want to go into luxury tax. The offered Harden less than he was asking for, and also didn't give much time for a decision to be made on their counter offer to his extension. They had prioritized signing Ibaka over him as they of course already had Westbrook and Durant, and in a sense we can argue they also chose keeping Perkins over him as they could have escaped his contract to get under tax. Harden being traded from OKC had nothing to do with forcing his way out of feeling he was too good to not be the alpha.

[Diop]

Manu was happy to be team first to win championships. People saying he was in a "lucky situation", Harden could have played the same role for OKC but refused. Forced his way out as he was "too good" to not be the alpha.

I don't recall this happening in OKC, where did you get this narrative from?

The Thunder didn't want to go into luxury tax. The offered Harden less than he was asking for, and also didn't give much time for a decision to be made on their counter offer to his extension. They had prioritized signing Ibaka over him as they of course already had Westbrook and Durant, and in a sense we can argue they also chose keeping Perkins over him as they could have escaped his contract to get under tax. Harden being traded from OKC had nothing to do with forcing his way out of feeling he was too good to not be the alpha.

He was grizzling about minutes and shots when OKC won in the playoffs. He wanted 4 years 60 million, OKC offered 4 years 55.5 million, but then he was traded.

The narrative I read was that he was unhappy with his finals role which motivated the change.

Could be just hindsight theories, who really knows. These things happen

[JDR720]

I mean if you want to make a playoff run then it's Manu simply because Harden has historically greatly underachieved in the playoffs. We don't know how Manu would do as "the guy" but we know Harden will struggle, so take the mystery box and see if it works out.

[CIN-C-STAR]

Yes, beating Team USA in a medal game, the only time it’s happened since NBA players were allowed to participate, as the #1 option, is a far greater accomplishment than whatever Harden’s greatest accomplishment has been as the #1 option.
Totally different animals, as you said.

I would definitely take Manu over Harden, but Manu on that 2004 Argentina team is starting to take on almost Wilt / A. Sabonis like exagerrations.

There is a lot of revised history of what actually happened in those Argentina teams.

It was an absolutely insanely stacked team, loaded with guys that had solid NBA and EuroLeague careers. Scola was the first option in the half court set. The offense was heavily dependent on the creation and pick and roll setups of the guards Sanchez and Montecchia.

Scola was the key player of the team in the gold medal game, not Manu, which was against Italy, not USA.

Never mind the same USA team lost to Italy, Puerto Rico, and Lithuania, and should have also lost to Greece, if not for a couple of bad calls.

Yes, Manu was certainly great for sure, but nowadays people are exagerrating what he did big time. People imply that he was carrying some team by himself and that they beat the normal US team. Neither are remotely true though.

Nothing but respect for the entire Golden Generation of Argentina. That team had decent top end talent and great depth, but Manu was the guy and everyone on that team would tell you that.
All champions have great teammates, why hold it against Manu?

[basketballto]

Manu because he will fit in better, remember its only one season and he has a contract with a much lower value.

I would rather build around Harden.

[TroubleS0me]

I don't see Manu carrying a team of his own to the post season. Maybe now that the play in is in place but this guy missed a lot of games. Peaked at 19/4/5 on 61% TS.

I'm going James Harden with 36/7.5/6.5 on 62% TS because he has proven to be able to scale up his production where as if Manu is the guy people are gearing in on instead of the 3rd threat coming off the bench these are HUGELY different roles. I watched the Suns and Spurs battles during the 2000s, I watched prime Manu so don't call it casual. Being the 3rd option and the 1st are vastly different.

Those are 2 different animals and you know it. Or at least you should.

Yes, beating Team USA in a medal game, the only time it’s happened since NBA players were allowed to participate, as the #1 option, is a far greater accomplishment than whatever Harden’s greatest accomplishment has been as the #1 option.
Totally different animals, as you said.

And yet Manu never chased the bag. Manu never stepped out on his own team. Manu never thought/believed in himself as a star. Say what you will, people who believe in themselves don't spend 15 years coming off the bench and 15 years of not chasing their big contracts.

wow...

[f4p]

I mean if you want to make a playoff run then it's Manu simply because Harden has historically greatly underachieved in the playoffs.

And yet hardens the one with the better playoff numbers, even per minute and not total.

[Daddy 801]

Depends who the other players on the team are. Manu is a stud so I don’t want to take anything away from him. But if Harden was the Spurs 6th man in the same years as Manu they still win those chips. And maybe they win even more chips. It’s a what if scenario so who knows, but Manu was lucky to play next to Duncan.

Whole thing sucks because OKC should have never shipped off Harden. Durant and Harden would have won chips.

[Tor_Raps]

Harden if I need him to be the team's best player but Ginobili in every other scenario.

[maradro]

I’d rather have Ginobli. My team might completely flame out if I can’t find a better anchor for my team and let Manu be the second guy, and X factor type.

But with Harden you’re assured of a catastrophic meltdown, and you don’t get all the little things from him either. I know he can carry me to better regular season records, but that’s where it will end.

Why doesn't Harden get to play with Tim Duncan. In your little hypothetical. Your argument is basically that you'd rather hire a bad money manager if you're already rich than a good one if you're poor. Like yeah, starting rich is better

Sure, we can put him with Tim Duncan. And then when he’s going 1/7 with 8 turnovers, playing no defense, and staring off into space every time a series is tight, we can just hope everyone else steps up, and not the #2 guy.

But in real world land, Tim is going to win you plenty on his own, but if you want to sustain titles for multiple years, you’re gonna need a creator to step up and play great ball in high pressure moments, or when he’s shooting bad, still find ways to impact the game on defense or by not turning ot over 100x.

We have no indication that Harden can do any of that though.

I haven't read the whole thread but to me this is the gist of the matter

The Manu detractors say that Manu couldn't handle the minutes and defensive attention of being the first option on a crappy team, which is fair since he never did it, you can't assume he'd keep his efficiency and win% in that situation... But at the same time have no problem assuming Harden or <insert franchise player here> could do the things Manu did, like play defense and sacrifice for the team

They'll all say *if harden had tim Duncan*.. well, how did that turn out for iverson in the Olympics? In the past month I learned Iverson is tiers above Manu , playing with an all time great defender in Marion, plus lebron wade and melo, and they got whooped. Somebody mentioned arroyo putting better stats on team USA, well arroyo didn't win anything did he? Maybe Manu using his teammates actually helped Argentina win?

Manu has lost and had bad series, absolutely, the difference is he burned all summer and came back with a vengeance. Harden loses and he goes to the strip club, pointing fingers.

Finally, the spurs are great and I don't like to trash my own team but some people act like they didn't have fringe players playing huge roles. Nobody was fighting over guys like Bowen, horry, green when they were here. Not to mention the bunch of guys that were ass everywhere they went but all of a sudden became valuable playing off of manu- I'm thinking blair, Bonner, Oberto, even diaw was in the trash heap when we picked him up

Also, why don't other players get dinged for being in the perfect situation, like Kawhi? Maybe if harden wasn't asking for the max he could have stayed in OKC and won 4 titles, Manu chose to stay.

Guys like wade, pierce, Allen, bosh, get the best of both worlds, where they have their rep as "franchise players" with big numbers, that don't win anything then go on to win championships in lesser roles. Manu was content with winning and he did it on every single team he played for