Stockton says LeBrons titles don’t have value

[AlexanderRight]

Actually yes it does. Jmoon's whole point from the beginning was that LeBron's intentions were to always leave Cleveland and go to Miami with Wade and Bosh. That was never the case until a few days before he made his announcement, and even then he was still on the fence about it, to the point where he stopped talking to Wade and Bosh. And in one of his posts, he claims LeBron, Wade and Bosh "met multiple times before teaming up in Miami".

This never happened, and his own source (that he clearly didn't read) confirms this. Their only source of interaction about the matter was a phone call that they made a few days before LeBron's announcement, this all being AFTER LeBron tried his hardest to convince Bosh to come to Cleveland, in which he failed. This isn't like the Westbrook situation where we know LeBron met with Westbrook over dinner to talk about playing with him and AD in LA. His intention was to stay in Cleveland. Going to Miami was something he didn't do until after he realized he had no other choice, unless he wanted to be stuck running into the same problems that plagued him in his first seven years with Cleveland.

Lastly, I've heard so many people mention the fact that the three had their contracts extended within the same time frame, like it was always the plan that they'd play together after their contracts expired. I really, really hope we don't have people here who actually believe that.

Even if LeBron was legitimately conflicted about his choice, that doesn’t absolve him of the consequences of the actual choice he made. His thought process leading up to it is meaningless and certainly not more important than the actual decision he eventually made because at the end of the day he still made that choice knowing what he was doing. He still did it, whether he was conflicted about it or not. A crime is still a crime whether you pretend the perpetrator was sad about it or not. And why do you keep pretending LBJ had no where else to go? There were other teams with plenty of cap space. He had chances to team with Amare in NY/ Griffin and with the Clippers/ D Rose in Chicago. There were other options where he still would have been on a contender and not been with Miami. But he purposely chose to team with a Top 3 player/arguably 2nd best player in the world/ all time player in D Wade along with a 5x All Star/ former 2nd Team All NBA as his 3rd option. He purposely chose the path of least resistance to artificially make winning a ring an easy a possible and that’s where he lost the respect. If wanna say “**** the process” and it’s just about trying to win and much as possible, that’s fine. I honestly don’t blame any player for chasing rings. But to pretend later that he didn’t chase rings/cherry pick rings/ purposely make Super Teams/ didn’t purposely team with arguably 2nd best player in the world/ that he “had no choice”/ or that the decision has no bearing on the GOAT convo is just laughable dude.

We’re all saying…there is absolutely nothing wrong with any of that and those decisions should have as little an impact on the goat convo as Michael landing his Batman and third best player in the draft or getting his third best player during his second run via trade.

7 different players have made the All Star Team with LBJ for a total of 17 All Star selections. Only 1 player ever made the All Star team MJ and it was only 6 times. LBJ has had more teammates make All NBAs with him too. Say whatever you want about LeBron’s first Cavs run. It’s become pretty apparent that over the totality of his career, LeBron’s has had more help.

[Iwasawitness]

Actually yes it does. Jmoon's whole point from the beginning was that LeBron's intentions were to always leave Cleveland and go to Miami with Wade and Bosh. That was never the case until a few days before he made his announcement, and even then he was still on the fence about it, to the point where he stopped talking to Wade and Bosh. And in one of his posts, he claims LeBron, Wade and Bosh "met multiple times before teaming up in Miami".

This never happened, and his own source (that he clearly didn't read) confirms this. Their only source of interaction about the matter was a phone call that they made a few days before LeBron's announcement, this all being AFTER LeBron tried his hardest to convince Bosh to come to Cleveland, in which he failed. This isn't like the Westbrook situation where we know LeBron met with Westbrook over dinner to talk about playing with him and AD in LA. His intention was to stay in Cleveland. Going to Miami was something he didn't do until after he realized he had no other choice, unless he wanted to be stuck running into the same problems that plagued him in his first seven years with Cleveland.

Lastly, I've heard so many people mention the fact that the three had their contracts extended within the same time frame, like it was always the plan that they'd play together after their contracts expired. I really, really hope we don't have people here who actually believe that.

Even if LeBron was legitimately conflicted about his choice, that doesn’t absolve him of the consequences of the actual choice he made. His thought process leading up to it is meaningless and certainly not more important than the actual decision he eventually made because at the end of the day he still made that choice knowing what he was doing. He still did it, whether he was conflicted about it or not. A crime is still a crime whether you pretend the perpetrator was sad about it or not. And why do you keep pretending LBJ had no where else to go? There were other teams with plenty of cap space. He had chances to team with Amare in NY/ Griffin and with the Clippers/ D Rose in Chicago. There were other options where he still would have been on a contender and not been with Miami. But he purposely chose to team with a Top 3 player/arguably 2nd best player in the world/ all time player in D Wade along with a 5x All Star/ former 2nd Team All NBA as his 3rd option. He purposely chose the path of least resistance to artificially make winning a ring an easy a possible and that’s where he lost the respect. If wanna say “**** the process” and it’s just about trying to win and much as possible, that’s fine. I honestly don’t blame any player for chasing rings. But to pretend later that he didn’t chase rings/cherry pick rings/ purposely make Super Teams/ didn’t purposely team with arguably 2nd best player in the world/ that he “had no choice”/ or that the decision has no bearing on the GOAT convo is just laughable dude.

We’re all saying…there is absolutely nothing wrong with any of that and those decisions should have as little an impact on the goat convo as Michael landing his Batman and third best player in the draft or getting his third best player during his second run via trade.

The stuff some of yall are saying is like saying organizations should trade for players or draft all nba/all star level free agents. Work with the team you have, build through the draft and sign role players. Everything else is an easier route and should be considered when grading the best organizations.

Ignore AlexanderRight. Guy isn't worth the time or effort.

[DimesandKnicks]

Even if LeBron was legitimately conflicted about his choice, that doesn’t absolve him of the consequences of the actual choice he made. His thought process leading up to it is meaningless and certainly not more important than the actual decision he eventually made because at the end of the day he still made that choice knowing what he was doing. He still did it, whether he was conflicted about it or not. A crime is still a crime whether you pretend the perpetrator was sad about it or not. And why do you keep pretending LBJ had no where else to go? There were other teams with plenty of cap space. He had chances to team with Amare in NY/ Griffin and with the Clippers/ D Rose in Chicago. There were other options where he still would have been on a contender and not been with Miami. But he purposely chose to team with a Top 3 player/arguably 2nd best player in the world/ all time player in D Wade along with a 5x All Star/ former 2nd Team All NBA as his 3rd option. He purposely chose the path of least resistance to artificially make winning a ring an easy a possible and that’s where he lost the respect. If wanna say “**** the process” and it’s just about trying to win and much as possible, that’s fine. I honestly don’t blame any player for chasing rings. But to pretend later that he didn’t chase rings/cherry pick rings/ purposely make Super Teams/ didn’t purposely team with arguably 2nd best player in the world/ that he “had no choice”/ or that the decision has no bearing on the GOAT convo is just laughable dude.

We’re all saying…there is absolutely nothing wrong with any of that and those decisions should have as little an impact on the goat convo as Michael landing his Batman and third best player in the draft or getting his third best player during his second run via trade.

7 different players have made the All Star Team with LBJ for a total of 17 All Star selections. Only 1 player ever made the All Star team MJ and it was only 6 times. LBJ has had more teammates make All NBAs with him too. Say whatever you want about LeBron’s first Cavs run. It’s become pretty apparent that over the totality of his career, LeBron’s has had more help.

This is a really dumb argument. Your going to have more allstar teammates when you play for more teams and play for 7 more years.

[Fantastik_Goat]

It’s true, they clearly don’t have as much value or this thread wouldn’t exist.

[og15]

Even if LeBron was legitimately conflicted about his choice, that doesn’t absolve him of the consequences of the actual choice he made. His thought process leading up to it is meaningless and certainly not more important than the actual decision he eventually made because at the end of the day he still made that choice knowing what he was doing. He still did it, whether he was conflicted about it or not. A crime is still a crime whether you pretend the perpetrator was sad about it or not. And why do you keep pretending LBJ had no where else to go? There were other teams with plenty of cap space. He had chances to team with Amare in NY/ Griffin and with the Clippers/ D Rose in Chicago. There were other options where he still would have been on a contender and not been with Miami. But he purposely chose to team with a Top 3 player/arguably 2nd best player in the world/ all time player in D Wade along with a 5x All Star/ former 2nd Team All NBA as his 3rd option. He purposely chose the path of least resistance to artificially make winning a ring an easy a possible and that’s where he lost the respect. If wanna say “**** the process” and it’s just about trying to win and much as possible, that’s fine. I honestly don’t blame any player for chasing rings. But to pretend later that he didn’t chase rings/cherry pick rings/ purposely make Super Teams/ didn’t purposely team with arguably 2nd best player in the world/ that he “had no choice”/ or that the decision has no bearing on the GOAT convo is just laughable dude.

We’re all saying…there is absolutely nothing wrong with any of that and those decisions should have as little an impact on the goat convo as Michael landing his Batman and third best player in the draft or getting his third best player during his second run via trade.

7 different players have made the All Star Team with LBJ for a total of 17 All Star selections. Only 1 player ever made the All Star team MJ and it was only 6 times. LBJ has had more teammates make All NBAs with him too. Say whatever you want about LeBron’s first Cavs run. It’s become pretty apparent that over the totality of his career, LeBron’s has had more help.

Lebron has also played 7 more years than Jordan, it will be 8 next season, and Washington Jordan seasons wasn't even very relevant as that was an owner just hopping on a team. Realistically we're comparing 13 seasons to 22 seasons, I don't know how helpful that comparison is.

[MavsDirk41]

So like when the Bulls traded for Rodman the year after he was all nba third team?

Acquring Rodman turned out to be a great move by Krause but Rodman was 34 and only played 49 games the year prior in San Antonio because of multiple suspensions, a personal leave of absence, and a motorcycle accident while openly criticizing Pop and others in the organization while heading out the door.

When James recruited Love to Cleveland he was 25 and coming off a 26/13/4 season and was an all star and all nba team 2.

When James recruited Davis to LA he was 25 and coming off a 26/12/4 season and only played 56 games because he publicly requested a trade and New Orleans benched him. He was an all star and all nba player.

When James was gifted Luka he was 25 and averaged 28/8/8 coming off a season in which he led his team to the finals, was an all star, all nba team 1, mvp candidate.

One isnt like the others. And getting back to your response to me from Tuesday, i had no clue that Jordan wanted the Bulls to trade for Walter Davis. With BJ and Craig Hodges they didnt need him and he was way past his prime and old at that point in his career. I knew Jordan was the reason Stackhouse was traded to Washington for Rip Hamilton. Terrible trade that didnt work out. But James has recruited Love, Davis, Westbrook, Leonard, Lilllard, DeRozan, Durant, and of course was part of getting the superteam Heat together. An article i read said he has a “war room” at his house where he has met with players to strategize ways to get them on his team. So he is way better than Jordan at recruiting talent to play with.

Again the league Jordan dominated wasn’t like the league LeBron played in. A free agent was essentially a restricted free agent so you could recruit all you wanted but all that players team would have to do is match an offer sheet to retain a player.

And it doesn’t matter if Rodman was 34. He was the second best player on the best team in the league that year and was all nba and all nba defense. He was as much of a headache as Jordan was, but some organizations tolerate the BS to win (I.e Draymond Green). Jordan pinched two teammates and was constantly berating teammates and Krause. I even heard a story of him playing a game drunk, dropping 30 in a half than sitting for the rest of the game.


Pippen delayed surgery to protest his contract and refused to go in a game because a play wasn’t drawn up for him.

Him being a headache off the court doesn’t negate the fact that he helped the bulls, who just lost to the Magic, “stack the deck”.

So the question remains, was acquiring Dennis Rodman the Bulls and MJ “stacking the deck”?

Is Jordan, Pippen, and Rodman elite talent? Yes. But my point was Rodman was not valued or in high demand at that time of his career because of his age, and his behavior while in San Antonio. The Bulls traded Will Perdue for him. Do you think that was fair value? Of course not, but nobody wanted him at that time in his career. And again trading for Rodman was Krause’s idea, not Jordans idea. James has been WAY more involved in picking his teammates/roster over the past 15 years than Jordan ever was.

[AlexanderRight]

We’re all saying…there is absolutely nothing wrong with any of that and those decisions should have as little an impact on the goat convo as Michael landing his Batman and third best player in the draft or getting his third best player during his second run via trade.

7 different players have made the All Star Team with LBJ for a total of 17 All Star selections. Only 1 player ever made the All Star team MJ and it was only 6 times. LBJ has had more teammates make All NBAs with him too. Say whatever you want about LeBron’s first Cavs run. It’s become pretty apparent that over the totality of his career, LeBron’s has had more help.

This is a really dumb argument. Your going to have more allstar teammates when you play for more teams and play for 7 more years.

Wouldn’t that equate to more success if LeBron was truly a better player? If you’re conceding LeBron has had more help and he’s undoubtedly had more time isn’t the fact that he hasn’t accomplished as much Jordan from an individual and team perspective an argument in favor of Jordan? You can’t say the longevity stats count when you’re just adding up career totals but don’t count when you’re adding up all the All Stars he’s played with.

[MavsDirk41]

Again the league Jordan dominated wasn’t like the league LeBron played in. A free agent was essentially a restricted free agent so you could recruit all you wanted but all that players team would have to do is match an offer sheet to retain a player.

And it doesn’t matter if Rodman was 34. He was the second best player on the best team in the league that year and was all nba and all nba defense. He was as much of a headache as Jordan was, but some organizations tolerate the BS to win (I.e Draymond Green). Jordan pinched two teammates and was constantly berating teammates and Krause. I even heard a story of him playing a game drunk, dropping 30 in a half than sitting for the rest of the game.


Pippen delayed surgery to protest his contract and refused to go in a game because a play wasn’t drawn up for him.

Him being a headache off the court doesn’t negate the fact that he helped the bulls, who just lost to the Magic, “stack the deck”.

So the question remains, was acquiring Dennis Rodman the Bulls and MJ “stacking the deck”?

Well MJ/Pippen/Rodman didn't play for different teams and conspire to sign together and take massive deals below market value, which is now not allowed in the CBA, btw. All that so they could play together.

Pippen was a draft day trade and signed a 7 year contract to secure a future for his family going against the advice from people close to him, which he tried to negotiate after he realised the mistake he'd made- unsuccessfully.. Rodman was aquired via trade.

So no is the pretty clear answer to your question.

Ahh so once more. If the organization is able to secure your rights under market value that’s okay with the basketball gods (Pippen 122nd ranked salary and Jordan 25th) but of the players willingly and without protest accept low salaries to build teams they’re organizations could not than bad?

Or is this just a you can’t leave your team thing?

Was it stacking the deck for no other reason than LeBron left the Heat in free agency? Because Kyrie was there than they acquired Love via trade?

Was Clyde Drexler and Hakeem “stacking the deck” when Clyde requested a trade from Portland with Hakeem lobbying for the move to be made?

Was Shaq stacking the deck when he joined a young 50 win Laker team?

Did the Sixers stack the deck when they sign and traded for Moses Malone the year after he won MVP (or is it different because it was an organizational move)

Did the Celtics “stacking the deck” when instead of just drafting Mchale with the first pick they traded it for Parish and the third pick which became Mchale or when they acquired Dennis Johnson?

I’m just curious as to what constitutes as “stacking the deck”?

Is it something you frown upon? (Or others, you’re more than welcome to lmk) and why?

Is it simply when a player plays the role of GM? Switches teams for better situation? Puts pressure on their organizations to make acquisitions?

Is what LeBron and KD did different in principle from what Clyde, Shaq, Barkley, Moses Malone, Wilt or Kobe did (either leaving or putting pressure on organizations)

Just curious as to what the threshold is in terms of what has to be done to be out of the basketball gods favor in yall opinion. Not be an ass, just genuinely curious

I dont think anyone is saying he is the only one to ever do it, but joining prime Wade and Bosh in Miami is a stacked deck. Going to Cleveland with a 22 year old all star and trading for a 25 year old allstar/all nba talent with James is a stacked deck. 3 all star players in their prime together is a stacked deck. Its not common. He didnt invent this but he was a part of it. Not sure why this rubs his fans the wrong way lol.

[AlexanderRight]

Even if LeBron was legitimately conflicted about his choice, that doesn’t absolve him of the consequences of the actual choice he made. His thought process leading up to it is meaningless and certainly not more important than the actual decision he eventually made because at the end of the day he still made that choice knowing what he was doing. He still did it, whether he was conflicted about it or not. A crime is still a crime whether you pretend the perpetrator was sad about it or not. And why do you keep pretending LBJ had no where else to go? There were other teams with plenty of cap space. He had chances to team with Amare in NY/ Griffin and with the Clippers/ D Rose in Chicago. There were other options where he still would have been on a contender and not been with Miami. But he purposely chose to team with a Top 3 player/arguably 2nd best player in the world/ all time player in D Wade along with a 5x All Star/ former 2nd Team All NBA as his 3rd option. He purposely chose the path of least resistance to artificially make winning a ring an easy a possible and that’s where he lost the respect. If wanna say “**** the process” and it’s just about trying to win and much as possible, that’s fine. I honestly don’t blame any player for chasing rings. But to pretend later that he didn’t chase rings/cherry pick rings/ purposely make Super Teams/ didn’t purposely team with arguably 2nd best player in the world/ that he “had no choice”/ or that the decision has no bearing on the GOAT convo is just laughable dude.

We’re all saying…there is absolutely nothing wrong with any of that and those decisions should have as little an impact on the goat convo as Michael landing his Batman and third best player in the draft or getting his third best player during his second run via trade.

The stuff some of yall are saying is like saying organizations should trade for players or draft all nba/all star level free agents. Work with the team you have, build through the draft and sign role players. Everything else is an easier route and should be considered when grading the best organizations.

Ignore AlexanderRight. Guy isn't worth the time or effort.

More ad hominem fallacy. Not surprised and typical of someone who can’t address or construct a valid argument. Stay classy Scranton Bulls.

[DimesandKnicks]

Acquring Rodman turned out to be a great move by Krause but Rodman was 34 and only played 49 games the year prior in San Antonio because of multiple suspensions, a personal leave of absence, and a motorcycle accident while openly criticizing Pop and others in the organization while heading out the door.

When James recruited Love to Cleveland he was 25 and coming off a 26/13/4 season and was an all star and all nba team 2.

When James recruited Davis to LA he was 25 and coming off a 26/12/4 season and only played 56 games because he publicly requested a trade and New Orleans benched him. He was an all star and all nba player.

When James was gifted Luka he was 25 and averaged 28/8/8 coming off a season in which he led his team to the finals, was an all star, all nba team 1, mvp candidate.

One isnt like the others. And getting back to your response to me from Tuesday, i had no clue that Jordan wanted the Bulls to trade for Walter Davis. With BJ and Craig Hodges they didnt need him and he was way past his prime and old at that point in his career. I knew Jordan was the reason Stackhouse was traded to Washington for Rip Hamilton. Terrible trade that didnt work out. But James has recruited Love, Davis, Westbrook, Leonard, Lilllard, DeRozan, Durant, and of course was part of getting the superteam Heat together. An article i read said he has a “war room” at his house where he has met with players to strategize ways to get them on his team. So he is way better than Jordan at recruiting talent to play with.

Again the league Jordan dominated wasn’t like the league LeBron played in. A free agent was essentially a restricted free agent so you could recruit all you wanted but all that players team would have to do is match an offer sheet to retain a player.

And it doesn’t matter if Rodman was 34. He was the second best player on the best team in the league that year and was all nba and all nba defense. He was as much of a headache as Jordan was, but some organizations tolerate the BS to win (I.e Draymond Green). Jordan pinched two teammates and was constantly berating teammates and Krause. I even heard a story of him playing a game drunk, dropping 30 in a half than sitting for the rest of the game.


Pippen delayed surgery to protest his contract and refused to go in a game because a play wasn’t drawn up for him.

Him being a headache off the court doesn’t negate the fact that he helped the bulls, who just lost to the Magic, “stack the deck”.

So the question remains, was acquiring Dennis Rodman the Bulls and MJ “stacking the deck”?

Is Jordan, Pippen, and Rodman elite talent? Yes. But my point was Rodman was not valued or in high demand at that time of his career because of his age, and his behavior while in San Antonio. The Bulls traded Will Perdue for him. Do you think that was fair value? Of course not, but nobody wanted him at that time in his career. And again trading for Rodman was Krause’s idea, not Jordans idea. James has been WAY more involved in picking his teammates/roster over the past 15 years than Jordan ever was.

I don’t know why people keep regurgitating the bold like it makes a difference. The addition of Rodman took them over the hill and Pippen and Jordan had to sign off on it, so again, was this move them stacking the deck?

[AlexanderRight]

Again the league Jordan dominated wasn’t like the league LeBron played in. A free agent was essentially a restricted free agent so you could recruit all you wanted but all that players team would have to do is match an offer sheet to retain a player.

And it doesn’t matter if Rodman was 34. He was the second best player on the best team in the league that year and was all nba and all nba defense. He was as much of a headache as Jordan was, but some organizations tolerate the BS to win (I.e Draymond Green). Jordan pinched two teammates and was constantly berating teammates and Krause. I even heard a story of him playing a game drunk, dropping 30 in a half than sitting for the rest of the game.


Pippen delayed surgery to protest his contract and refused to go in a game because a play wasn’t drawn up for him.

Him being a headache off the court doesn’t negate the fact that he helped the bulls, who just lost to the Magic, “stack the deck”.

So the question remains, was acquiring Dennis Rodman the Bulls and MJ “stacking the deck”?

Is Jordan, Pippen, and Rodman elite talent? Yes. But my point was Rodman was not valued or in high demand at that time of his career because of his age, and his behavior while in San Antonio. The Bulls traded Will Perdue for him. Do you think that was fair value? Of course not, but nobody wanted him at that time in his career. And again trading for Rodman was Krause’s idea, not Jordans idea. James has been WAY more involved in picking his teammates/roster over the past 15 years than Jordan ever was.

I don’t know why people keep regurgitating the bold like it makes a difference. The addition of Rodman took them over the hill and Pippen and Jordan had to sign off on it, so again, was this move them stacking the deck?

Over the hill? As if they weren’t 3 time champions already. Funny. Hate to break it to you but MJ/Bulls were already arguably the greatest player and team ever before Rodman ever entered the picture. So using him to discredit MJ isn’t really gonna get you anywhere. Rodman averaged 5/11 in the playoffs and barely started half the games in the last two championship runs. He did his part but he was far from the saving grace you’re painting him out to be. Had he never came along he would’ve been replaced by a defensive minded forward and nobody in CHI would’ve lossed second of sleep over it.

[MrBigShot]

LeBron really lucked out in that DWade declined so quickly. DWade was nowhere near the same player anymore by 2013. The optics of him winning with Bosh & DWade playing complimentary roles panned out so much better than KD going to GS, where Steph was debatably the second best player in the world at the time.

[ball_takes23]

LeBron really lucked out in that DWade declined so quickly. DWade was nowhere near the same player anymore by 2013. The optics of him winning with Bosh & DWade playing complimentary roles panned out so much better than KD going to GS, where Steph was debatably the second best player in the world at the time.

I got some bad news for you, the optics still look bad for him and clearing the very low bar of KD to GS doesn’t change that. There’s a reason this thread is 45 pages long.

[michaelm]

We’re all saying…there is absolutely nothing wrong with any of that and those decisions should have as little an impact on the goat convo as Michael landing his Batman and third best player in the draft or getting his third best player during his second run via trade.

The stuff some of yall are saying is like saying organizations should trade for players or draft all nba/all star level free agents. Work with the team you have, build through the draft and sign role players. Everything else is an easier route and should be considered when grading the best organizations.

Ignore AlexanderRight. Guy isn't worth the time or effort.

More ad hominem fallacy. Not surprised and typical of someone who can’t address or construct a valid argument. Stay classy Scranton Bulls.

A master of disguise he is not.

[michaelm]

Again the league Jordan dominated wasn’t like the league LeBron played in. A free agent was essentially a restricted free agent so you could recruit all you wanted but all that players team would have to do is match an offer sheet to retain a player.

And it doesn’t matter if Rodman was 34. He was the second best player on the best team in the league that year and was all nba and all nba defense. He was as much of a headache as Jordan was, but some organizations tolerate the BS to win (I.e Draymond Green). Jordan pinched two teammates and was constantly berating teammates and Krause. I even heard a story of him playing a game drunk, dropping 30 in a half than sitting for the rest of the game.


Pippen delayed surgery to protest his contract and refused to go in a game because a play wasn’t drawn up for him.

Him being a headache off the court doesn’t negate the fact that he helped the bulls, who just lost to the Magic, “stack the deck”.

So the question remains, was acquiring Dennis Rodman the Bulls and MJ “stacking the deck”?

Is Jordan, Pippen, and Rodman elite talent? Yes. But my point was Rodman was not valued or in high demand at that time of his career because of his age, and his behavior while in San Antonio. The Bulls traded Will Perdue for him. Do you think that was fair value? Of course not, but nobody wanted him at that time in his career. And again trading for Rodman was Krause’s idea, not Jordans idea. James has been WAY more involved in picking his teammates/roster over the past 15 years than Jordan ever was.

I don’t know why people keep regurgitating the bold like it makes a difference. The addition of Rodman took them over the hill and Pippen and Jordan had to sign off on it, so again, was this move them stacking the deck?

I actually agreed with your earlier post, how Jordan and LeBron won their titles is not relevant to the GOAT debate between them. Jordan was indeed not in a position to need to change teams, but a considerable amount of that was on him, and I don’t see why he should be diminished for doing exactly what he should have done, even if sometimes reluctantly. He didn’t win when he was more ball dominant, LeBron never fully bought into ensemble play imo, but as someone said on the other thread LeBron’s effectiveness can’t be denied including by me even if he has mostly employed a playing style which I don’t particularly enjoy,

[michaelm]

none of what you said contradicts anything jmoon said. if three friends conspire to commit a crime and one of the friends thinks about changing their mind, they are still all going to be found guilty of conspiracy if the crime is actually committed. Saying that I thought about changing my mind or that the plan didnt get finalized until the last minute is not going to be very convincing to the jury.

Actually yes it does. Jmoon's whole point from the beginning was that LeBron's intentions were to always leave Cleveland and go to Miami with Wade and Bosh. That was never the case until a few days before he made his announcement, and even then he was still on the fence about it, to the point where he stopped talking to Wade and Bosh. And in one of his posts, he claims LeBron, Wade and Bosh "met multiple times before teaming up in Miami".

This never happened, and his own source (that he clearly didn't read) confirms this. Their only source of interaction about the matter was a phone call that they made a few days before LeBron's announcement, this all being AFTER LeBron tried his hardest to convince Bosh to come to Cleveland, in which he failed. This isn't like the Westbrook situation where we know LeBron met with Westbrook over dinner to talk about playing with him and AD in LA. His intention was to stay in Cleveland. Going to Miami was something he didn't do until after he realized he had no other choice, unless he wanted to be stuck running into the same problems that plagued him in his first seven years with Cleveland.

Lastly, I've heard so many people mention the fact that the three had their contracts extended within the same time frame, like it was always the plan that they'd play together after their contracts expired. I really, really hope we don't have people here who actually believe that.

Even if LeBron was legitimately conflicted about his choice, that doesn’t absolve him of the consequences of the actual choice he made. His thought process leading up to it is meaningless and certainly not more important than the actual decision he eventually made because at the end of the day he still made that choice knowing what he was doing. He still did it, whether he was conflicted about it or not. A crime is still a crime whether you pretend the perpetrator was sad about it or not. And why do you keep pretending LBJ had no where else to go? There were other teams with plenty of cap space. He had chances to team with Amare in NY/ Griffin and with the Clippers/ D Rose in Chicago. There were other options where he still would have been on a contender and not been with Miami. But he purposely chose to team with a Top 3 player/arguably 2nd best player in the world/ all time player in D Wade along with a 5x All Star/ former 2nd Team All NBA as his 3rd option. He purposely chose the path of least resistance to artificially make winning a ring an easy a possible and that’s where he lost the respect. If wanna say “**** the process” and it’s just about trying to win and much as possible, that’s fine. I honestly don’t blame any player for chasing rings. But to pretend later that he didn’t chase rings/cherry pick rings/ purposely make Super Teams/ didn’t purposely team with arguably 2nd best player in the world/ that he “had no choice”/ or that the decision has no bearing on the GOAT convo is just laughable dude.

It wasn’t a crime, but they are mounting a quite good defense of the KD to GSW move if being conflicted/unsure is a defense for such moves, which I personally don’t see any need for while objecting to double standards.

[MavsDirk41]

Again the league Jordan dominated wasn’t like the league LeBron played in. A free agent was essentially a restricted free agent so you could recruit all you wanted but all that players team would have to do is match an offer sheet to retain a player.

And it doesn’t matter if Rodman was 34. He was the second best player on the best team in the league that year and was all nba and all nba defense. He was as much of a headache as Jordan was, but some organizations tolerate the BS to win (I.e Draymond Green). Jordan pinched two teammates and was constantly berating teammates and Krause. I even heard a story of him playing a game drunk, dropping 30 in a half than sitting for the rest of the game.


Pippen delayed surgery to protest his contract and refused to go in a game because a play wasn’t drawn up for him.

Him being a headache off the court doesn’t negate the fact that he helped the bulls, who just lost to the Magic, “stack the deck”.

So the question remains, was acquiring Dennis Rodman the Bulls and MJ “stacking the deck”?

Is Jordan, Pippen, and Rodman elite talent? Yes. But my point was Rodman was not valued or in high demand at that time of his career because of his age, and his behavior while in San Antonio. The Bulls traded Will Perdue for him. Do you think that was fair value? Of course not, but nobody wanted him at that time in his career. And again trading for Rodman was Krause’s idea, not Jordans idea. James has been WAY more involved in picking his teammates/roster over the past 15 years than Jordan ever was.

I don’t know why people keep regurgitating the bold like it makes a difference. The addition of Rodman took them over the hill and Pippen and Jordan had to sign off on it, so again, was this move them stacking the deck?

Well i think the biggest difference is the Bulls didnt know exactly what they were getting in Rodman. Again he only played 49 games the prior year due to suspensions, a personal leave of absence, and was pretty much just a distraction. Would he be the same in Chicago? Would he buy in to the system and be a professional? Would he mesh with Jordan and Pippen? James knew what he was getting with Wade/Bosh and then Irving/Love. Also, while i wont dismiss what Rodman brought to the 95/96 Bulls they won 72 games that season and he missed 18 games. Imagine if he played 82…..

[DimesandKnicks]

Well MJ/Pippen/Rodman didn't play for different teams and conspire to sign together and take massive deals below market value, which is now not allowed in the CBA, btw. All that so they could play together.

Pippen was a draft day trade and signed a 7 year contract to secure a future for his family going against the advice from people close to him, which he tried to negotiate after he realised the mistake he'd made- unsuccessfully.. Rodman was aquired via trade.

So no is the pretty clear answer to your question.

Ahh so once more. If the organization is able to secure your rights under market value that’s okay with the basketball gods (Pippen 122nd ranked salary and Jordan 25th) but of the players willingly and without protest accept low salaries to build teams they’re organizations could not than bad?

Or is this just a you can’t leave your team thing?

Was it stacking the deck for no other reason than LeBron left the Heat in free agency? Because Kyrie was there than they acquired Love via trade?

Was Clyde Drexler and Hakeem “stacking the deck” when Clyde requested a trade from Portland with Hakeem lobbying for the move to be made?

Was Shaq stacking the deck when he joined a young 50 win Laker team?

Did the Sixers stack the deck when they sign and traded for Moses Malone the year after he won MVP (or is it different because it was an organizational move)

Did the Celtics “stacking the deck” when instead of just drafting Mchale with the first pick they traded it for Parish and the third pick which became Mchale or when they acquired Dennis Johnson?

I’m just curious as to what constitutes as “stacking the deck”?

Is it something you frown upon? (Or others, you’re more than welcome to lmk) and why?

Is it simply when a player plays the role of GM? Switches teams for better situation? Puts pressure on their organizations to make acquisitions?

Is what LeBron and KD did different in principle from what Clyde, Shaq, Barkley, Moses Malone, Wilt or Kobe did (either leaving or putting pressure on organizations)

Just curious as to what the threshold is in terms of what has to be done to be out of the basketball gods favor in yall opinion. Not be an ass, just genuinely curious

I dont think anyone is saying he is the only one to ever do it, but joining prime Wade and Bosh in Miami is a stacked deck. Going to Cleveland with a 22 year old all star and trading for a 25 year old allstar/all nba talent with James is a stacked deck. 3 all star players in their prime together is a stacked deck. Its not common. He didnt invent this but he was a part of it. Not sure why this rubs his fans the wrong way lol.

Find a different phrase that doesn’t have a negative connotation. None of these moves have LeBron and his teams an unfair advantage. It’s joining a team that can compete for a championship.

And I’m not one of his fans

[The4thHorseman]

Is Jordan, Pippen, and Rodman elite talent? Yes. But my point was Rodman was not valued or in high demand at that time of his career because of his age, and his behavior while in San Antonio. The Bulls traded Will Perdue for him. Do you think that was fair value? Of course not, but nobody wanted him at that time in his career. And again trading for Rodman was Krause’s idea, not Jordans idea. James has been WAY more involved in picking his teammates/roster over the past 15 years than Jordan ever was.

I don’t know why people keep regurgitating the bold like it makes a difference. The addition of Rodman took them over the hill and Pippen and Jordan had to sign off on it, so again, was this move them stacking the deck?

Well i think the biggest difference is the Bulls didnt know exactly what they were getting in Rodman. Again he only played 49 games the prior year due to suspensions, a personal leave of absence, and was pretty much just a distraction. Would he be the same in Chicago? Would he buy in to the system and be a professional? Would he mesh with Jordan and Pippen? James knew what he was getting with Wade/Bosh and then Irving/Love. Also, while i wont dismiss what Rodman brought to the 95/96 Bulls they won 72 games that season and he missed 18 games. Imagine if he played 82…..

Bulls general manager Jerry Krause and head coach "Phil Jackson talked a lot with Rodman before trading for him. [B[According to Jackson, Krause left the decision to acquire Rodman up to him. Jordan and Pippen approved the move.[/B]

“Phil and I talked very carefully about this,” Krause said. “We did an awful lot of homework and found out a lot of things. We were both satisfied.”

“The one promise we made to Dennis, was, we said at the beginning, when we first talked, we said at the end of the year we will sit down and we’ll talk about the future, and I think that’s what we are gonna do, we are going to sit down at the end of the year,”

They knew exactly what they were getting. They didn't have to worry about if he'd fit in on offense cause they were bringing him in for his defense.

If Jackson and others never talked to Dennis prior to the trade then there's definite reason by them for concern, but it wasn't a gamble or roll of the dice... they knew exactly what they were getting. Jordan signed off on making the Bulls a superteam by bringing in the then reigning 4x rebounding champion (which became 7x after joining Bulls) who was just coming off making his 7th consecutive All-Defensive team.

https://www.si.com/nba/bulls/old-school/how-the-dennis-rodman-trade-helped-the-chicago-bulls

[The4thHorseman]

Is Jordan, Pippen, and Rodman elite talent? Yes. But my point was Rodman was not valued or in high demand at that time of his career because of his age, and his behavior while in San Antonio. The Bulls traded Will Perdue for him. Do you think that was fair value? Of course not, but nobody wanted him at that time in his career. And again trading for Rodman was Krause’s idea, not Jordans idea. James has been WAY more involved in picking his teammates/roster over the past 15 years than Jordan ever was.

I don’t know why people keep regurgitating the bold like it makes a difference. The addition of Rodman took them over the hill and Pippen and Jordan had to sign off on it, so again, was this move them stacking the deck?

Well i think the biggest difference is the Bulls didnt know exactly what they were getting in Rodman. Again he only played 49 games the prior year due to suspensions, a personal leave of absence, and was pretty much just a distraction. Would he be the same in Chicago? Would he buy in to the system and be a professional? Would he mesh with Jordan and Pippen? James knew what he was getting with Wade/Bosh and then Irving/Love. Also, while i wont dismiss what Rodman brought to the 95/96 Bulls they won 72 games that season and he missed 18 games. Imagine if he played 82…..

"Bulls general manager Jerry Krause and head coach "Phil Jackson talked a lot with Rodman before trading for him. According to Jackson, Krause left the decision to acquire Rodman up to him. Jordan and Pippen approved the move.

“Phil and I talked very carefully about this,” Krause said. “We did an awful lot of homework and found out a lot of things. We were both satisfied.”

“The one promise we made to Dennis, was, we said at the beginning, when we first talked, we said at the end of the year we will sit down and we’ll talk about the future, and I think that’s what we are gonna do, we are going to sit down at the end of the year,”

They knew exactly what they were getting. They didn't have to worry about if he'd fit in on offense cause they were bringing him in for his defense.

If Jackson and others never talked to Dennis prior to the trade then there's definite reason by them for concern, but it wasn't a gamble or roll of the dice... they knew exactly what they were getting. Jordan signed off on making the Bulls a superteam by bringing in the then reigning 4x rebounding champion (which became 7x after joining Bulls) who was just coming off making his 7th consecutive All-Defensive team.

https://www.si.com/nba/bulls/old-school/how-the-dennis-rodman-trade-helped-the-chicago-bulls