Stockton says LeBrons titles don’t have value

[Cavsfansince84]

The way a few posters on here have sort of been dismissive of what Rodman brought to the Bulls makes me think they don't fully appreciate or understand how those teams won a lot of their games/series. Once he bought into the system and behaved himself he became almost the perfect piece for them. For a team that slowed down the game as much as possible to maximize the effect of having the ultimate half court scoring weapon, his defensive versaility and off rebounding was a perfect compliment. That finals with the Sonics is a great example of this where the series was basically won via turnovers and off rebounding. The cumulative effect of Dennis' off rebounding is very underrated. To give an example from 92-98 he avged between 5.3 and 6.4 orpg. Ben Wallace in his prime peaked at 4.0 while leading the league in it twice. Shaq in his mvp year avged 4.3. Dennis in the 96 finals avged 7. Those extra possessions in super slow pace games were a big deal.

[MavsDirk41]

I don’t know why people keep regurgitating the bold like it makes a difference. The addition of Rodman took them over the hill and Pippen and Jordan had to sign off on it, so again, was this move them stacking the deck?

Well i think the biggest difference is the Bulls didnt know exactly what they were getting in Rodman. Again he only played 49 games the prior year due to suspensions, a personal leave of absence, and was pretty much just a distraction. Would he be the same in Chicago? Would he buy in to the system and be a professional? Would he mesh with Jordan and Pippen? James knew what he was getting with Wade/Bosh and then Irving/Love. Also, while i wont dismiss what Rodman brought to the 95/96 Bulls they won 72 games that season and he missed 18 games. Imagine if he played 82…..

Bulls general manager Jerry Krause and head coach "Phil Jackson talked a lot with Rodman before trading for him. [B[According to Jackson, Krause left the decision to acquire Rodman up to him. Jordan and Pippen approved the move.[/B]

“Phil and I talked very carefully about this,” Krause said. “We did an awful lot of homework and found out a lot of things. We were both satisfied.”

“The one promise we made to Dennis, was, we said at the beginning, when we first talked, we said at the end of the year we will sit down and we’ll talk about the future, and I think that’s what we are gonna do, we are going to sit down at the end of the year,”

They knew exactly what they were getting. They didn't have to worry about if he'd fit in on offense cause they were bringing him in for his defense.

If Jackson and others never talked to Dennis prior to the trade then there's definite reason by them for concern, but it wasn't a gamble or roll of the dice... they knew exactly what they were getting. Jordan signed off on making the Bulls a superteam by bringing in the then reigning 4x rebounding champion (which became 7x after joining Bulls) who was just coming off making his 7th consecutive All-Defensive team.

https://www.si.com/nba/bulls/old-school/how-the-dennis-rodman-trade-helped-the-chicago-bulls

Lol it was always a gamble move acquiring him because of his past behavior and guess what?? He missed games in 95/96 and 96/97 because of……nba suspensions. Can you tell me any other team besides the Bulls that were willing to take a chance on Rodman in 95? Ill wait for your response on this one….but im gonna guess nobody else.

And of course he was brought in for his defense and rebounding lol….Dennis Rodman is one of the worst all star offensive players to ever play in the nba. And again….it was Jerry Krause’s idea and Jordan and Pippen signed off on it. According to information i obtained from Google searches Lebron James has a war room at his house where he meets with players he is recruiting and strategizes his next move in orchestrating his roster. Soooooo James has had more input in building his rosters/picking his teammates than Michael Jordan for $200 dollars Alex

[Nate505]

Lebron won 2 rings without Wade and Bosh too.

Yeah, he one one with Kyrie and Love, and one with AD. I don't think he won one without either going to a team with all-stars, or having a team trade for one.

IMO he's the second best player in NBA history, so it's not like I think he sucks or anything. He just did it in an easier way than the guys in the past did it.

Most guys in the past did it with all star help, just like LeBron did. Your logic doesn't make any sense here.

Most guys didn't get to pick and choose their all star help. That is the key difference.

[Nate505]

So basically, it's only not stacking the deck if you build throuhg the draft? Or don't sign all-nba level/all-start teamates in free agency?

When All NBA types go to teams with other All NBA types in FA, it definitely cheapens the process.

So like when the Bulls traded for Rodman the year after he was all nba third team?

Sort of. Though Rodman was seen, at the time of the trade, as a much bigger liability than, say, Anthony Davis.

[Iwasawitness]

Yeah, he one one with Kyrie and Love, and one with AD. I don't think he won one without either going to a team with all-stars, or having a team trade for one.

IMO he's the second best player in NBA history, so it's not like I think he sucks or anything. He just did it in an easier way than the guys in the past did it.

Most guys in the past did it with all star help, just like LeBron did. Your logic doesn't make any sense here.

Most guys didn't get to pick and choose their all star help. That is the key difference.

That's not really much of a difference.

[JM00n69]

LeBron fanboys so salty in this thread it's hilarious. OP even purposively misquoted what Stockton actually said, which was that LBJ took a helicopter to the top of the mountain not that his titles don't have value. I mean they have less value than KD's but they're still titles.

And for some reason everyone is arguing about Rodman now.

[Iwasawitness]

LeBron fanboys so salty in this thread it's hilarious. OP even purposively misquoted what Stockton actually said, which was that LBJ took a helicopter to the top of the mountain not that his titles don't have value. I mean they have less value than KD's but they're still titles.

And for some reason everyone is arguing about Rodman now.

I'm more so amazed at the fact that we're 45 pages in and there probably isn't a dumber thing that was said than the bolded here.

[DimesandKnicks]

Well i think the biggest difference is the Bulls didnt know exactly what they were getting in Rodman. Again he only played 49 games the prior year due to suspensions, a personal leave of absence, and was pretty much just a distraction. Would he be the same in Chicago? Would he buy in to the system and be a professional? Would he mesh with Jordan and Pippen? James knew what he was getting with Wade/Bosh and then Irving/Love. Also, while i wont dismiss what Rodman brought to the 95/96 Bulls they won 72 games that season and he missed 18 games. Imagine if he played 82…..

Bulls general manager Jerry Krause and head coach "Phil Jackson talked a lot with Rodman before trading for him. [B[According to Jackson, Krause left the decision to acquire Rodman up to him. Jordan and Pippen approved the move.[/B]

“Phil and I talked very carefully about this,” Krause said. “We did an awful lot of homework and found out a lot of things. We were both satisfied.”

“The one promise we made to Dennis, was, we said at the beginning, when we first talked, we said at the end of the year we will sit down and we’ll talk about the future, and I think that’s what we are gonna do, we are going to sit down at the end of the year,”

They knew exactly what they were getting. They didn't have to worry about if he'd fit in on offense cause they were bringing him in for his defense.

If Jackson and others never talked to Dennis prior to the trade then there's definite reason by them for concern, but it wasn't a gamble or roll of the dice... they knew exactly what they were getting. Jordan signed off on making the Bulls a superteam by bringing in the then reigning 4x rebounding champion (which became 7x after joining Bulls) who was just coming off making his 7th consecutive All-Defensive team.

https://www.si.com/nba/bulls/old-school/how-the-dennis-rodman-trade-helped-the-chicago-bulls

Lol it was always a gamble move acquiring him because of his past behavior and guess what?? He missed games in 95/96 and 96/97 because of……nba suspensions. Can you tell me any other team besides the Bulls that were willing to take a chance on Rodman in 95? Ill wait for your response on this one….but im gonna guess nobody else.

And of course he was brought in for his defense and rebounding lol….Dennis Rodman is one of the worst all star offensive players to ever play in the nba. And again….it was Jerry Krause’s idea and Jordan and Pippen signed off on it. According to information i obtained from Google searches Lebron James has a war room at his house where he meets with players he is recruiting and strategizes his next move in orchestrating his roster. Soooooo James has had more input in building his rosters/picking his teammates than Michael Jordan for $200 dollars Alex

Why does any of this diminish the actual impact he bought on the court? It didn’t not. They bought in an elite rebounder and defender and “stacked the deck” to win three more championships.

[DimesandKnicks]

Yeah, he one one with Kyrie and Love, and one with AD. I don't think he won one without either going to a team with all-stars, or having a team trade for one.

IMO he's the second best player in NBA history, so it's not like I think he sucks or anything. He just did it in an easier way than the guys in the past did it.

Most guys in the past did it with all star help, just like LeBron did. Your logic doesn't make any sense here.

Most guys didn't get to pick and choose their all star help. That is the key difference.

Wilt did, Barkley did, Moses Malone did, Hakeem and Clyde did, Shaq did, Kobe did, Jordan did Curry and Draymond did when they recruited KD, Duncan would have if they allowed his family on the plane in Orlando it’s been happening for a long time, even when it was a lot harder to do so

[DimesandKnicks]

When All NBA types go to teams with other All NBA types in FA, it definitely cheapens the process.

So like when the Bulls traded for Rodman the year after he was all nba third team?

Sort of. Though Rodman was seen, at the time of the trade, as a much bigger liability than, say, Anthony Davis.

Doesn’t make a difference, his impact was his impact

[MavsDirk41]

Bulls general manager Jerry Krause and head coach "Phil Jackson talked a lot with Rodman before trading for him. [B[According to Jackson, Krause left the decision to acquire Rodman up to him. Jordan and Pippen approved the move.[/B]

“Phil and I talked very carefully about this,” Krause said. “We did an awful lot of homework and found out a lot of things. We were both satisfied.”

“The one promise we made to Dennis, was, we said at the beginning, when we first talked, we said at the end of the year we will sit down and we’ll talk about the future, and I think that’s what we are gonna do, we are going to sit down at the end of the year,”

They knew exactly what they were getting. They didn't have to worry about if he'd fit in on offense cause they were bringing him in for his defense.

If Jackson and others never talked to Dennis prior to the trade then there's definite reason by them for concern, but it wasn't a gamble or roll of the dice... they knew exactly what they were getting. Jordan signed off on making the Bulls a superteam by bringing in the then reigning 4x rebounding champion (which became 7x after joining Bulls) who was just coming off making his 7th consecutive All-Defensive team.

https://www.si.com/nba/bulls/old-school/how-the-dennis-rodman-trade-helped-the-chicago-bulls

Lol it was always a gamble move acquiring him because of his past behavior and guess what?? He missed games in 95/96 and 96/97 because of……nba suspensions. Can you tell me any other team besides the Bulls that were willing to take a chance on Rodman in 95? Ill wait for your response on this one….but im gonna guess nobody else.

And of course he was brought in for his defense and rebounding lol….Dennis Rodman is one of the worst all star offensive players to ever play in the nba. And again….it was Jerry Krause’s idea and Jordan and Pippen signed off on it. According to information i obtained from Google searches Lebron James has a war room at his house where he meets with players he is recruiting and strategizes his next move in orchestrating his roster. Soooooo James has had more input in building his rosters/picking his teammates than Michael Jordan for $200 dollars Alex

Why does any of this diminish the actual impact he bought on the court? It didn’t not. They bought in an elite rebounder and defender and “stacked the deck” to win three more championships.

I never tried to diminish his impact on the court my point was he was more of a gamble in 1995 than say Chris Bosh in 2010, Kevin Love in 2014, or Anthony Davis in 2019. You and some of the others want to dismiss the hot mess he was in San Antonio. And i have yet to have anyone on here tell me 1) besides the Bulls who was willing to take a chance on him at that time in his career, and 2) name another franchise where he would have been as successful, and 3) realize that the Bulls still 3 peated even though he has nba suspensions in 95/96 and 96/97. You guys act like Rodman would have just gone anywhere and been great/made that team a contender. So yea, it was a bit of a gamble trading for him.

[MavsDirk41]

Most guys in the past did it with all star help, just like LeBron did. Your logic doesn't make any sense here.

Most guys didn't get to pick and choose their all star help. That is the key difference.

Wilt did, Barkley did, Moses Malone did, Hakeem and Clyde did, Shaq did, Kobe did, Jordan did Curry and Draymond did when they recruited KD, Duncan would have if they allowed his family on the plane in Orlando it’s been happening for a long time, even when it was a lot harder to do so

Did Jordan call Dennis Rodman and recruit him to Chicago?

[MightyMouse10]

Stacking the deck means creating an unfair advantage.

There was nothing unfair about what LeBron did.

Again, learn what these terms mean before you use them.

It was stacking the deck. They had a top 2-3 player in the SF, SG & PF spot. All in their prime. Imagine Jordan teaming up with Hakeem olajuwon and charles barkley after not beating the Pistons. I remember Flo Rida came out with a song called "We already won". They were +175 to win the championship that year. By comparison, the GSW were -150 when they signed durant. After cleveland traded for kevin love they were +250. His switch to Miami and Cleveland made the team he was on the "Vegas" favourites of the league. The deck was stacked in both scenarios.

To me winning two championships in Miami was a failure for Bosh, Wade & Lebron. That team should have won every single year. The MVP, a former finals MVP and a Superstar PF.

Oh goodie, this argument again.

First off, Bosh was not a top 3 player at his position. You had the likes of Pau, Duncan, Amare, Dirk, and KG. Those were the locks at five, as Bosh didn't have an argument over any of them. So at best, he's outside the top 5.

So in reality, what LeBron really had first and foremost was a top 2 player at his position for a teammate, and a top ten player at his position for a teammate. Guess what? Jordan had that too in Pippen and Grant. So this is a very stupid argument. I don't need to imagine it, that already happened.

Now granted, I'm exaggerating a bit here. After all, Wade and Bosh as players are better than Pippen and Grant. But there's multiple issues here, one being that Jordan fit a LOT better with his best teammates than LeBron did. And not to mention Jordan spent years playing with them to develop chemistry. LeBron didn't have such fortune. But second and more importantly, what the Bulls had beyond those three was much better than what Miami had beyond their three. I don't know how many times this needs to be said, but basketball is more than just your three best players. For some reason, everyone forgets this.

Not even going to waste my time explaining why Hakeem and Barkley is a stupid comparison.

Last part of this post... You claim them only winning two titles is a failure. Why? In both cases that they lost, it was to superior teams. How is losing to a better team a failure? How is that possible if LeBron stacked the deck in his favor? News flash: he didn't, and as I've said several times, if you don't know what a term means, then you should probably stop saying it.

Comparing Bosh/Wade to Hakeem/Barkley is not a stupid comparison. Olajuwon/Jordan/Barkley went 1-3-5 in the same draft year. Lebron/Bosh/Wade went 1-4-5 in the same draft year. I think Bosh/Wade have had comparable careers to Olajuwon/Barkley. I can swap Olajuwon with Stockton if the makes you feel better.

Bosh was an All NBA talent. You named 5 players who were arguably better would you like me to concede and say he was the 6th best PF amongst 5 other top HoF pfs? Wade had already won a finals MVP at that point. You're somehow telling me Pippen>Wade, which is not true and that horace grant and his 1 All star appearance, career 11.1, 8.2 2.2 was better than Bosh 19.2 8.5 2 11x All Star, received MVP votes, ALL-NBA, career also cut short. You can compare Horace Grant to Mike Miller or Udonis Haslem, maybe Shane Battier but don't disrespect Chris Bosh's career by comparing him to Hoarce Grant. Add to the fact that Jordan went on to retire in his prime and win another three-peat(something Lebron has never done) without this "all-nba" talent horace grant.

Are we joking here? What is the narrative you Lebron stans want? Respect Lebron for what he is, an all-time talent, generational player but he's not the GOAT. The majority disagree with you, look at the votes in the thread. Just because you're the loudest doesn't mean you're right. He's handpicked his team for the entirety of his career. The only thing that stopped him from going to the GSW before KD did was FA timing or Im sure he'd be there too. This narrative of him havng worse teams has to stop. If you lived it, you know. The Heatles, were hated for a reason. The best version of Lebron that I have seen is against the Detroit Pistons the year he lost in the finals to the Spurs. I wish I got more of that. We were robbed of witnessing that dominance because he has consistently taken the easy way out his entire career.

[Iwasawitness]

Comparing Bosh/Wade to Hakeem/Barkley is not a stupid comparison. Olajuwon/Jordan/Barkley went 1-3-5 in the same draft year. Lebron/Bosh/Wade went 1-4-5 in the same draft year. I think Bosh/Wade have had comparable careers to Olajuwon/Barkley.

And just like that I immediately stop reading.

Not wasting my time on someone who thinks Wade and Bosh are comparable as players to Hakeem/Barkley based on draft positioning. One of the more laughable arguments I've ever seen on this site.

[MightyMouse10]

Comparing Bosh/Wade to Hakeem/Barkley is not a stupid comparison. Olajuwon/Jordan/Barkley went 1-3-5 in the same draft year. Lebron/Bosh/Wade went 1-4-5 in the same draft year. I think Bosh/Wade have had comparable careers to Olajuwon/Barkley.

And just like that I immediately stop reading.

Not wasting my time on someone who thinks Wade and Bosh are comparable as players to Hakeem/Barkley based on draft positioning. One of the more laughable arguments I've ever seen on this site.

Understand context. A laughable take is the narrative that Lebron has struggled when everyone except for Lebron stans see it. Keep being a "witness" to fabricated narratives or that Jordan had better teams than Lebron. Which isn't even what the thread is about but has turned into because we have to follow narratives dictated by the witnesses of the self anointed king.

[JM00n69]

Might as well rename the thread to MJ v LBJ now.

LBJ fanboys have lost the original argument so have made it all about something completely not related to the point of the thread. It's like having an argument with your girl.

[Nate505]

Most guys in the past did it with all star help, just like LeBron did. Your logic doesn't make any sense here.

Most guys didn't get to pick and choose their all star help. That is the key difference.

That's not really much of a difference.

Other than being a massive difference, sure.

[Iwasawitness]

Comparing Bosh/Wade to Hakeem/Barkley is not a stupid comparison. Olajuwon/Jordan/Barkley went 1-3-5 in the same draft year. Lebron/Bosh/Wade went 1-4-5 in the same draft year. I think Bosh/Wade have had comparable careers to Olajuwon/Barkley.

And just like that I immediately stop reading.

Not wasting my time on someone who thinks Wade and Bosh are comparable as players to Hakeem/Barkley based on draft positioning. One of the more laughable arguments I've ever seen on this site.

Understand context. A laughable take is the narrative that Lebron has struggled when everyone except for Lebron stans see it. Keep being a "witness" to fabricated narratives or that Jordan had better teams than Lebron. Which isn't even what the thread is about but has turned into because we have to follow narratives dictated by the witnesses of the self anointed king.

What is this even supposed to mean? Are you thinking what you're saying through before posting it? Would explain a lot.

Most guys didn't get to pick and choose their all star help. That is the key difference.

That's not really much of a difference.

Other than being a massive difference, sure.

No, it's really not.

[JM00n69]

And just like that I immediately stop reading.

Not wasting my time on someone who thinks Wade and Bosh are comparable as players to Hakeem/Barkley based on draft positioning. One of the more laughable arguments I've ever seen on this site.

Understand context. A laughable take is the narrative that Lebron has struggled when everyone except for Lebron stans see it. Keep being a "witness" to fabricated narratives or that Jordan had better teams than Lebron. Which isn't even what the thread is about but has turned into because we have to follow narratives dictated by the witnesses of the self anointed king.

What is this even supposed to mean? Are you thinking what you're saying through before posting it? Would explain a lot.

That's not really much of a difference.

Other than being a massive difference, sure.

No, it's really not.

You are a delusional fanboy. Someone who crushes on one player and doesn't give a fck about the game. What you gonna fill your life with once he retires?


Srike for personal attack.
-z

[cupcakesnake]

I think this thread has run its course. There are too many Lebron fans/haters who can't have a normal basketball discussion without taking it all personally and insulting each other. Mods are likely to continue to lock threads that get derailed by posters who are only interested in screaming and crying about Lebron. Find another forum if this is your hobby.
- ccs