James Harden or Manu Ginobili, for a single year run

[f4p]

Why doesn't Harden get to play with Tim Duncan. In your little hypothetical. Your argument is basically that you'd rather hire a bad money manager if you're already rich than a good one if you're poor. Like yeah, starting rich is better

Sure, we can put him with Tim Duncan. And then when he’s going 1/7 with 8 turnovers, playing no defense, and staring off into space every time a series is tight, we can just hope everyone else steps up, and not the #2 guy.

But in real world land, Tim is going to win you plenty on his own, but if you want to sustain titles for multiple years, you’re gonna need a creator to step up and play great ball in high pressure moments, or when he’s shooting bad, still find ways to impact the game on defense or by not turning ot over 100x.

We have no indication that Harden can do any of that though.

I haven't read the whole thread but to me this is the gist of the matter

The Manu detractors say that Manu couldn't handle the minutes and defensive attention of being the first option on a crappy team, which is fair since he never did it, you can't assume he'd keep his efficiency and win% in that situation... But at the same time have no problem assuming Harden or <insert franchise player here> could do the things Manu did, like play defense and sacrifice for the team

They'll all say *if harden had tim Duncan*.. well, how did that turn out for iverson in the Olympics? In the past month I learned Iverson is tiers above Manu , playing with an all time great defender in Marion, plus lebron wade and melo, and they got whooped. Somebody mentioned arroyo putting better stats on team USA, well arroyo didn't win anything did he? Maybe Manu using his teammates actually helped Argentina win?

Manu has lost and had bad series, absolutely, the difference is he burned all summer and came back with a vengeance. Harden loses and he goes to the strip club, pointing fingers.

Finally, the spurs are great and I don't like to trash my own team but some people act like they didn't have fringe players playing huge roles. Nobody was fighting over guys like Bowen, horry, green when they were here. Not to mention the bunch of guys that were ass everywhere they went but all of a sudden became valuable playing off of manu- I'm thinking blair, Bonner, Oberto, even diaw was in the trash heap when we picked him up

Also, why don't other players get dinged for being in the perfect situation, like Kawhi? Maybe if harden wasn't asking for the max he could have stayed in OKC and won 4 titles, Manu chose to stay.

Guys like wade, pierce, Allen, bosh, get the best of both worlds, where they have their rep as "franchise players" with big numbers, that don't win anything then go on to win championships in lesser roles. Manu was content with winning and he did it on every single team he played for

Feels like you could have just kept it simple and said “rings, erneh”.

Like are we really at the point that we now have multiple people wondering why 22 year old James harden (who was traded, not asking out) didn’t want to become a 5 time mvp with super max contracts like literally every other great player in history in his situation would instead of being a 6th man his whole career? I mean even manu was a starter on the spurs through like a few seasons and it was essentially established he didn’t have an mvp career ahead of him when he, admittedly through a big sacrifice, played a few less minutes a game in a perfect situation for him.

[maradro]

Oh and another thing, part of the reason Manu got inured a lot was because he always went hard on both ends and in practiceband every summer on his national team. He played through a lot of it and that also affected his stats.

It's easy to be durable when you don't put your body on the line, Manu literally lost a testicle for the spurs.

And the 2012 series isn't indicative of anything, that is past prime Manu, he missed half the season with a broken hand and had a much smaller role, 2011 is his last prime year

[maradro]

Sure, we can put him with Tim Duncan. And then when he’s going 1/7 with 8 turnovers, playing no defense, and staring off into space every time a series is tight, we can just hope everyone else steps up, and not the #2 guy.

But in real world land, Tim is going to win you plenty on his own, but if you want to sustain titles for multiple years, you’re gonna need a creator to step up and play great ball in high pressure moments, or when he’s shooting bad, still find ways to impact the game on defense or by not turning ot over 100x.

We have no indication that Harden can do any of that though.

I haven't read the whole thread but to me this is the gist of the matter

The Manu detractors say that Manu couldn't handle the minutes and defensive attention of being the first option on a crappy team, which is fair since he never did it, you can't assume he'd keep his efficiency and win% in that situation... But at the same time have no problem assuming Harden or <insert franchise player here> could do the things Manu did, like play defense and sacrifice for the team

They'll all say *if harden had tim Duncan*.. well, how did that turn out for iverson in the Olympics? In the past month I learned Iverson is tiers above Manu , playing with an all time great defender in Marion, plus lebron wade and melo, and they got whooped. Somebody mentioned arroyo putting better stats on team USA, well arroyo didn't win anything did he? Maybe Manu using his teammates actually helped Argentina win?

Manu has lost and had bad series, absolutely, the difference is he burned all summer and came back with a vengeance. Harden loses and he goes to the strip club, pointing fingers.

Finally, the spurs are great and I don't like to trash my own team but some people act like they didn't have fringe players playing huge roles. Nobody was fighting over guys like Bowen, horry, green when they were here. Not to mention the bunch of guys that were ass everywhere they went but all of a sudden became valuable playing off of manu- I'm thinking blair, Bonner, Oberto, even diaw was in the trash heap when we picked him up

Also, why don't other players get dinged for being in the perfect situation, like Kawhi? Maybe if harden wasn't asking for the max he could have stayed in OKC and won 4 titles, Manu chose to stay.

Guys like wade, pierce, Allen, bosh, get the best of both worlds, where they have their rep as "franchise players" with big numbers, that don't win anything then go on to win championships in lesser roles. Manu was content with winning and he did it on every single team he played for

Feels like you could have just kept it simple and said “rings, erneh”.

Like are we really at the point that we now have multiple people wondering why 22 year old James harden (who was traded, not asking out) didn’t want to become a 5 time mvp with super max contracts like literally every other great player in history in his situation would instead of being a 6th man his whole career? I mean even manu was a starter on the spurs through like a few seasons and it was essentially established he didn’t have an mvp career ahead of him when he, admittedly through a big sacrifice, played a few less minutes a game in a perfect situation for him.

i guess okc traded harden because he sucks , salary cap couldn't have had anything to do with it

[zero rings]

If you're competing for a championship, that means you have already have a good team. And if you have a good team, you want the guy who plays great defense and doesn't shrink in the moment.

Give me Manu. Harden has loser intangibles, and if you go past the box-score numbers into more advanced stuff like RAPM, there's an argument to be made that Manu is just flat out better.

[Sixers in 4]

Depends on who else is on the team because Harden is so ball dominant; he isn't going to work in every situation.

Manu fits pretty much anywhere but if I was given a choice and an option to choose how the build the rest of the team obviously I am picking Harden

[Cavsfansince84]

If playing 35+mpg and scoring 25ppg in the rs is part of the equation then its Harden. If a team can win 55+ with Manu at 30mpg and giving you 20/5/5 in the rs then I guess its him.

[The Servant]

I mean if you want to make a playoff run then it's Manu simply because Harden has historically greatly underachieved in the playoffs. We don't know how Manu would do as "the guy" but we know Harden will struggle, so take the mystery box and see if it works out.

Took the KD Warriors to game 7 and went 65-17. Anyone thinking Manu is doing this is making me laugh. Nothing I saw from 04-12 would tell me Manu could lead a team to 65 wins as "the guy".

19/5/5 on 30 mpg guys. Let's not get too crazy here.

If you're competing for a championship, that means you have already have a good team. And if you have a good team, you want the guy who plays great defense and doesn't shrink in the moment.

Give me Manu. Harden has loser intangibles, and if you go past the box-score numbers into more advanced stuff like RAPM, there's an argument to be made that Manu is just flat out better.

We are talking about driving the bus, not riding it from the bench. Your foundational core piece being Manu vs Harden.

[The Servant]

Why don't we start scaling up 8th man bench players with 15 mpg on good teams and pretending their stats would translate when played for 36 mpg as the star?

I'd take Steve Kerr over Harden for my core players on a championship roster. He was elite, hit a big shot in a series for the Bulls, and wherever he played championships just seemed to follow. He just... Won.

He was a winner. Harden is a life time loser with his 65 win Rockets and taking KD GSW to a game 7.

LOL.

[zero rings]

Why don't we start scaling up 8th man bench players with 15 mpg on good teams and pretending their stats would translate when played for 36 mpg as the star?

I'd take Steve Kerr over Harden for my core players on a championship roster. He was elite, hit a big shot in a series for the Bulls, and wherever he played championships just seemed to follow. He just... Won.

He was a winner. Harden is a life time loser with his 65 win Rockets and taking KD GSW to a game 7.

LOL.

Manu had superstar impact in the minutes and role he was given. Steve Kerr never did. You're being disingenuous.

There was also a guy named Chris Paul on that 65 win Rockets team, and a slew of great defenders. Harden was great that year, but that team was loaded. They would have won a ton of games with Manu as well.

[f4p]

If you're competing for a championship, that means you have already have a good team. And if you have a good team, you want the guy who plays great defense and doesn't shrink in the moment.

Give me Manu. Harden has loser intangibles, and if you go past the box-score numbers into more advanced stuff like RAPM, there's an argument to be made that Manu is just flat out better.

I mean here's 97-24 playoff RAPM. So yes Manu is ahead of harden. But I guess now he's also ahead of Duncan and Draymond is better than Steph. Also Jamal Murray is better than jokic. And guys like jokic and Butler and wade are no where to be found. Either we got a lot of teams and players wrong or maybe it's not the end all.

1. LeBron James : 7.7
2. Draymond Green : 6.3
3. Manu Ginobili : 5.9
4. Tim Duncan : 5.6
5. Kevin Durant : 5.2
6. Stephen Curry : 4.9
7. Jamal Murray : 4.5
8. Ray Allen : 4.2
9. James Harden : 4.2
10. Jayson Tatum: 4.1

It's not like prime harden doesn't have spectacular playoff on/off numbers north of +11 for a decade.

[cupcakesnake]

Manu was happy to be team first to win championships. People saying he was in a "lucky situation", Harden could have played the same role for OKC but refused. Forced his way out as he was "too good" to not be the alpha.

Not sure this is true. From my imperfect memory, the word out of Harden's camp is that he was happy to stay in OKC, and even fine with the 6th man role, but we wasn't giving OKC a discount for that. OKC was the one who decided they couldn't afford him and made a trade. I do not remember any narrative at the time of Harden forcing his way out. It's hard to defend a position against Harden getting paid a max, considering how good he immediately became after leaving OKC. He scored 45 points on 19 shots in his first game as a Rocket, and then never looked back.

For those pimping out Hardens stars, Westbrook's 2017 OKC season he averaged a triple double with a higher per and bpm than Harden every reached.

Does that mean Weatbrook is the better player? The one you would want to lead your team?

I like this point. We're so dead set on using statistical evidence of player value, that we want the stats to tell us that story in a simple way. The longer I follow basketball (and I'm a pro stats guy, don't get me wrong. Love them stats, yum yum), the more I value film-based scouting reports first, and stats second. I want to know what a guy does on the court functionally that helps his team win.

[f4p]

Why doesn't Harden get to play with Tim Duncan. In your little hypothetical. Your argument is basically that you'd rather hire a bad money manager if you're already rich than a good one if you're poor. Like yeah, starting rich is better

Sure, we can put him with Tim Duncan. And then when he’s going 1/7 with 8 turnovers, playing no defense, and staring off into space every time a series is tight, we can just hope everyone else steps up, and not the #2 guy.

But in real world land, Tim is going to win you plenty on his own, but if you want to sustain titles for multiple years, you’re gonna need a creator to step up and play great ball in high pressure moments, or when he’s shooting bad, still find ways to impact the game on defense or by not turning ot over 100x.

We have no indication that Harden can do any of that though.

I haven't read the whole thread but to me this is the gist of the matter

The Manu detractors say that Manu couldn't handle the minutes and defensive attention of being the first option on a crappy team, which is fair since he never did it, you can't assume he'd keep his efficiency and win% in that situation... But at the same time have no problem assuming Harden or <insert franchise player here> could do the things Manu did, like play defense and sacrifice for the team

I mean lots of role players play defense and sacrifice. Do we just apply infinite value to these things. And of course harden at much younger ages of 21 and 22 was a 6th man and was pretty great at it, basically putting up prime manu numbers in the playoffs with amazing on/off. You guys keep talking about intangibles like you are under the impression that hardens playoff impact numbers are bad instead of really good. So he literally did it when he was just starting out. So why would we assume he would lose that ability?

They'll all say *if harden had tim Duncan*.. well, how did that turn out for iverson in the Olympics? In the past month I learned Iverson is tiers above Manu , playing with an all time great defender in Marion, plus lebron wade and melo, and they got whooped. Somebody mentioned arroyo putting better stats on team USA, well arroyo didn't win anything did he? Maybe Manu using his teammates actually helped Argentina win?

Literally what does any of this mean? Team USA got worked by nearly everybody in 2002 and 2004. Why are we acting like Manu was special. Then you bring up arroyo? What did he win? A game against team USA. By 20 points. So Manu beating them suddenly doesn't seem so special.

Also, tim Duncan gets his ass kicked with an all star team and somehow the lesson to learn is that james harden isn't good?

Manu has lost and had bad series, absolutely, the difference is he burned all summer and came back with a vengeance. Harden loses and he goes to the strip club, pointing fingers.

Ahh yes, 6 foot 5, moderately athletic shooting guard James harden became a 5 time MVP candidate by not working hard. Guys like that always just stroll in from the club and dominate the NBA, a sport not at all famous for catering to 6'8+ athletic freaks. How many 6 foot 5 guys who weren't freakishly athletic or one of the greatest pure shooters ever are top 30 all time? By my count, harden is the whole list.

Finally, the spurs are great and I don't like to trash my own team but some people act like they didn't have fringe players playing huge roles.

Nobody was fighting over guys like Bowen, horry, green when they were here. Not to mention the bunch of guys that were ass everywhere they went but all of a sudden became valuable playing off of manu- I'm thinking blair, Bonner, Oberto, even diaw was in the trash heap when we picked him up

Aww, how sad. They only had 3 hall of famers.for their entire primes and that's it? Well, other than that other hall of famer kawhi. So only 4. Oh and i guess even drob for 2003. Oh and no one wanted 5 time champion Robert horry. Who basically saved the pistons series? Or all nba defender and playoff career 3 pt % leader Bruce bowen?

[f4p]

Depends on who else is on the team because Harden is so ball dominant; he isn't going to work in every situation.

Yes, Manu would fit in tons of situations, but Harden has been on a top 5 offense for 5 different franchises and 6 different coaches. They said he and Chris paul wouldnt work because they both needed the ball. So they just had the #1 offense and were one of the most dominant duos ever. They said harden and KD and Kyrie couldn't function because there was only one ball. They went 29-7 with harden, had the #1 offense, and had a 130 ORtg in their one healthy playoff series. And of course he blended perfectly as a 6th man in OKC. Dude ran a #6 offense with 2020 Westbrook, who has spent most of his post MVP career just tanking offenses with his lack of spacing. He had a top 5 offense with Dwight Howard and omer asik combining for 98 starts in 2014, which is like negative offense if they are both starting.

[f4p]

We are talking about driving the bus, not riding it from the bench. Your foundational core piece being Manu vs Harden.

It really is funny watching people make these arguments. I'll take manu if he comes paired with one of the 7 or 8 greatest players ever over James harden. Insightful.

[NO-KG-AI]

When Manu and Duncan had to play against each other, Manu sent Tim packing with a far less talented team, and took home one of the greatest basketball achievements ever.

Put some respek on Manu.

[therealbig3]

When Manu and Duncan had to play against each other, Manu sent Tim packing with a far less talented team, and took home one of the greatest basketball achievements ever.

Put some respek on Manu.

We’re comparing international ball to the NBA, it doesn’t make sense.

With that said, giving all the credit to Harden for going 7 games against the Warriors when CP3 was very clearly the more important player in that series and Harden absolutely collapsed as he typically does when CP3 was out is pretty hilarious.

I do think this question is disrespectful though. Manu has absolutely nothing to his name as far as 1. Playing big minutes, 2. Being durable to last for a whole regular season and playoff run while playing big minutes, and 3. Doing 1 and 2 as the #1 option.

And bringing up the 04 Olympics is completely irrelevant to that.

[f4p]

When Manu and Duncan had to play against each other, Manu sent Tim packing with a far less talented team, and took home one of the greatest basketball achievements ever.

Put some respek on Manu.

We’re comparing international ball to the NBA, it doesn’t make sense.

With that said, giving all the credit to Harden for going 7 games against the Warriors when CP3 was very clearly the more important player in that series and Harden absolutely collapsed as he typically does when CP3 was out is pretty hilarious.

Harden was something like 29/6/6 on 54 TS% and Paul was 20/6 on 52 TS% and harden had I believe a +14 on/off while Paul i think was +5 but don't quote me on the cp3 on/off. And I think cp was at right around +0 in just the first 5 games. That doesn't seem very clear to me. Also harden averaged about 32/8/6 over the last 2 games (admittedly with a lot of turnovers) against the number 1 playoff defense with his best offensive help being Clint capela, who couldnt score unless harden gave him a dunk. And got great help like ariza going 0-12 in game 7 or ryan Anderson playing 7 minutes and being -12 in a 9 point game. How could you not beat a team with 4 hall of famers by yourself James! They only best LeBron 8 out of 9 games. It should have been easy.

[og15]

Depends on who else is on the team because Harden is so ball dominant; he isn't going to work in every situation.

Manu fits pretty much anywhere but if I was given a choice and an option to choose how the build the rest of the team obviously I am picking Harden

Harden worked as a young guy with Westbrook and Durant. Harden worked with Chris Paul. Harden worked with Kyrie and Durant, Harden worked with Embiid. I don't think this is a good argument against him because he's worked and helped lead top offenses in many situations.

[NO-KG-AI]

When Manu and Duncan had to play against each other, Manu sent Tim packing with a far less talented team, and took home one of the greatest basketball achievements ever.

Put some respek on Manu.

We’re comparing international ball to the NBA, it doesn’t make sense.

With that said, giving all the credit to Harden for going 7 games against the Warriors when CP3 was very clearly the more important player in that series and Harden absolutely collapsed as he typically does when CP3 was out is pretty hilarious.

I do think this question is disrespectful though. Manu has absolutely nothing to his name as far as 1. Playing big minutes, 2. Being durable to last for a whole regular season and playoff run while playing big minutes, and 3. Doing 1 and 2 as the #1 option.

And bringing up the 04 Olympics is completely irrelevant to that.

It was tongue in cheek, but it’s as valid as pretending he’s just a nobody and could never muster anything without the infallible Tim Duncan, who can win titles with anybody(except an olympic team)

[The Servant]

When Manu and Duncan had to play against each other, Manu sent Tim packing with a far less talented team, and took home one of the greatest basketball achievements ever.

Put some respek on Manu.

Yeah but we are talking about a training camp, 82 game season and a post season with 7 game series. We aren't talking about a single game tournament with a team of randoms for 12 games.