Mavericks Players

[jayjaysee]

Ok, let's start at the beginning I guess.

OKC doesn't match up well against Dallas as we saw last year. Even though they have a good starting lineup, Hartenstein doesn't cover the depth except at 1 position.

Houston improved themselves and have several good bench players at the 5.

Denver has no bench, they go as Jokic goes primarily.

GSW keep talking but don't do anything, can't even deal with Kuminga.

LAC traded their 2nd best shooter and if there is anyone that makes AD seem like the healthiest player in the league, that would be Leonard.

And since we're talking about when healthy, AD, when healthy is absolutely in the MVP conversation. As far as depth, Dallas is actually a proven 12 player deep team and their 5 player back ups are far and away the best quality.

Even if I agree that the five backups are better than anyone else’s back ups.. the starters are levels below other teams unless Flagg is an allstar. And I don’t agree with Dallas’ bench being the best in the league.

LAC offseason rotation upgrades.. Powell, KPJ, Bamba, Coffey for Brook Lopez, John Collins, Bradley Beal, Chris Paul… Which means their second unit is better than Dallas’ and if Leonard/Harden are playing, their starters are.

Denver lost Saric and Russ (as of now) and will be adding Jonas, Holmes, THJ, Brown and should expect development out of Watson/Strawther/Braun and Cam vs MPJ is an upgrade imo to the starters, that are again better than Dallas’ thanks to Joker..

GSW would prefer to rip someone off in a sign and trade for Kuminga versus paying him. So would any team right? Can’t blame them for trying. If they do keep him, he’s a good player on that contract he’ll be on, despite it likely being the QO... But Horford/ Brogdon seem to be waiting for that to play out.

[Texas Chuck]

Mavs have two elite 2nd guys in AD and Kyrie. But Kyrie is going to miss most of the year and maybe there is drop off. Davis can't be counted on health wise ever.

They have two top 25 centers but not a better than average starter and Lively is undependable health wise. And even if you max out both guys they then block Davis from his best position.

Washington is a good 5th starter.

But none of the guards are starters on a contender. Thompson and Russell are fine offensive players but defensive liabilities. Exum fine as your 5th guard.

Christie, Martin, and Marshall all rotation level guys but nothing more.

Powell, Hardy, Prosper aren't roster worthy. Williams is an unknown who can score but finding guards who can score is east.

So then there is Flagg. A baby. Encouraging how he played against team USA but expecting a difference maker is super unrealistic.

It's a play-in level team on paper.

But the OP complaint is about perceived trade value.

AD has some but won't be traded because we were sold he's better than Luka. Kyrie has the injury and the player option and the baggage. Worth far more playing for Dallas than he returns in trade. Dallas got him cheap.

PJ should be worth a protected first even with no extension because teams never have enough guys like that.

Lively still returns a first despite the injuries because he's playoff proven and a plus defender with a clear offensive role.

Flagg is worth a ton

Nobody else is worth anything of note.

None of this is people undervaluing the Mavs players. It's just the reality.

Sent from my SM-A156U using RealGM mobile app

[chrbal]

Powell, Hardy, Prosper aren't roster worthy. Williams is an unknown who can score but finding guards who can score is east.

I get Powell and Prosper, but why do you say Hardy isn’t roster worthy? Not trying to argue, just curious

[HornetJail]

I agree the Mavericks have a number of quality rotation players that will be handy when the Mavericks blow up this team for picks when it becomes clear the team's ceiling is .500

[daoneandonly]

This post doesnt belong on the T&T board. But even as a Mavs fan I disagree with the overall premise. No team fears Dallas because nobody is scared of AD. If he sees blood after flossing he misses 17 straight games, he's the softest player in league history.

[jayjaysee]

I agree the Mavericks have a number of quality rotation players that will be handy when the Mavericks blow up this team for picks when it becomes clear the team's ceiling is .500

Meh. By then Dallas will owe picks/swaps for four straight years and there will be no real benefit in tanking.. If the team hasn’t committed to tanking by January, Dallas might as well keep AD and Kyrie through their contracts and/or reup them and bring Flagg in on a decent roster.

[brackdan70]

Mavs have two elite 2nd guys in AD and Kyrie. But Kyrie is going to miss most of the year and maybe there is drop off. Davis can't be counted on health wise ever.

They have two top 25 centers but not a better than average starter and Lively is undependable health wise. And even if you max out both guys they then block Davis from his best position.

Washington is a good 5th starter.

But none of the guards are starters on a contender. Thompson and Russell are fine offensive players but defensive liabilities. Exum fine as your 5th guard.

Christie, Martin, and Marshall all rotation level guys but nothing more.

Powell, Hardy, Prosper aren't roster worthy. Williams is an unknown who can score but finding guards who can score is east.

So then there is Flagg. A baby. Encouraging how he played against team USA but expecting a difference maker is super unrealistic.

It's a play-in level team on paper.

But the OP complaint is about perceived trade value.

AD has some but won't be traded because we were sold he's better than Luka. Kyrie has the injury and the player option and the baggage. Worth far more playing for Dallas than he returns in trade. Dallas got him cheap.

PJ should be worth a protected first even with no extension because teams never have enough guys like that.

Lively still returns a first despite the injuries because he's playoff proven and a plus defender with a clear offensive role.

Flagg is worth a ton

Nobody else is worth anything of note.

None of this is people undervaluing the Mavs players. It's just the reality.

Sent from my SM-A156U using RealGM mobile app

This seems pretty spot on.
I think AD could have quite a bit of value though. Multiple firsts in the right situation.
And then Gafford…not a first, but it seems he would also have positive value in the right situation.

[Captain_Obvious]

And then Gafford…not a first, but it seems he would also have positive value in the right situation.

"not a first" lol

board is just comedy at this point

[gswhoops]

And then Gafford…not a first, but it seems he would also have positive value in the right situation.

"not a first" lol

board is just comedy at this point

Who's giving a first (and neutral-ish matching salary) for Gafford? Looking for specific team names.

[ReggiesKnicks]

And then Gafford…not a first, but it seems he would also have positive value in the right situation.

"not a first" lol

board is just comedy at this point

Just to be clear, you think it is comedy that a Center ranked somewhere around 25th best isn't worth a 1st in many people's eyes?

Can you provide an example, a recent example (you can define recent as 1,3, 5 or however many years you desire), of a player of Gafford's ilk and pedigree being traded and for what return?

We saw Mark Williams get traded for a 2031 Unprotected 1st and matching salary and then again traded for 2 very late 1sts. I think Mark Williams, unquestionably, has more value than Gafford in a vacuum. Perhaps a team gets unlucky with an injury and needs to replace their injured Center with Gafford. That is a situation where Gafford could pull a late 1st, but I don't expect teams to be lining up trying to take Gafford from Dallas for a 1st.

[toooskies]

I think the OP feels the way they do because Dallas's frontcourt players are often thrown into trades by other teams because they see five rotation players at PF/C and hope to steal one for less than full value. They also see Dallas needing better guards, particularly while Kyrie is out, and feel that Dallas should be willing to pay something to move extreme depth at PF and C for a fill-in starter at PG/SG.

The nature of the board trade proposals is that most fans overrate their team's players and underrate other teams' players, which leads to a good amount of trade proposals that a Dallas fan might object to.

And while sometimes (bad) GMs do take a loss for better fit, most will hold out for what they perceive as good value. And I think that's what Dallas is doing, with the perspective that they're as likely to need big man depth as any team because of AD and Lively having injury issues over the years.

[Texas Chuck]

Gafford dunks a lot. And is a really efficient finisher. He also blocks some shots so he appears to be a better defender than he is. To a casual observer he looks like he is doing a bunch of stuff and so he seems like he should be super valuable. But when you dig into the impact stats, it becomes pretty obvious that the Mavs have played much better with Lively on the court than Gafford. And in the playoffs the difference was extreme. Because Lively actually has incredible defensive instincts. Gafford is just a big body with great athleticism and plays with a lot of effort. But he's often well out of position.

He's a good player, a very good offensive player, but he's not good enough defensively to start for a serious playoff team. And he's locked into a pretty decent size contract. There is no excess value here where he should return any kind of meaningful asset to Dallas.

And that's okay. Dallas needs him because their other 2 centers aren't dependable. He will play 20+ mpg most nights and give their guards a rolling option and he's not old Dirk or Boban bad on defense. He's fine.

But just because a player is useful and looks the part doesn't mean they have a lot of trade value. Every team has good role players you wouldn't give a first for either. Its just you are offended because you are a Mavs fan. On this board we try and separate how much we love our players from how much they are actually worth. And I get its hard. I still want a lotto pick for Doe Doe after the market has repeatedly spoken and said he's not worth that.

[daoneandonly]

I agree that Gaff isn't worth a first. I don't see any team doing that. Even the Mavs, as mismanaged as they are, really just traded a swap for him, not an outright first.

But the sad fact is that Gaff is probably Dallas' best trade piece that they can and would trade. Lively and AD should occupy the lion share of minutes at the 5, as Dallas has PJ, Naji, and Flagg to spend enough time at the 4.

I have posed the question many times: What is the best guard Dallas could get for Gaff, and what decent backup center could they get for Martin, Klay, or Hardy?

[gswhoops]

I agree that Gaff isn't worth a first. I don't see any team doing that. Even the Mavs, as mismanaged as they are, really just traded a swap for him, not an outright first.

But the sad fact is that Gaff is probably Dallas' best trade piece that they can and would trade. Lively and AD should occupy the lion share of minutes at the 5, as Dallas has PJ, Naji, and Flagg to spend enough time at the 4.

I have posed the question many times: What is the best guard Dallas could get for Gaff, and what decent backup center could they get for Martin, Klay, or Hardy?

I don't hate the fundamentals of a Kuminga to Sac, Monk to Dallas, Gaff to GSW deal. I'd be willing to throw in TJD to help Dallas backfill the C spot. Would require Dallas to dump some salary on a cap space team though to avoid triggering the first apron.

[longfellow44]

I will agree that I think Dallas has one of the deepest teams in the league, I don't know if they can win a championship with Kyrie and AD likely to miss a solid amount of time each. But as far as depth I think they are in a great position.

Kyrie/russell
Klay/Christie
Flagg/marshall/martin
Davis/Washington
lively/gafford.

They should put flagg at pf, but with Davis on the roster he likely ends up at small forward.i personally like the advantages that flagg brings more at the pf spot than small forward. The mavericks actually have enough depth to make up for injuries, but I think they are likely better served by making a consolidation trade to improve their top end talent.

[brackdan70]

And then Gafford…not a first, but it seems he would also have positive value in the right situation.

"not a first" lol

board is just comedy at this point

So you think Gafford is worth a first?

[daoneandonly]

I agree that Gaff isn't worth a first. I don't see any team doing that. Even the Mavs, as mismanaged as they are, really just traded a swap for him, not an outright first.

But the sad fact is that Gaff is probably Dallas' best trade piece that they can and would trade. Lively and AD should occupy the lion share of minutes at the 5, as Dallas has PJ, Naji, and Flagg to spend enough time at the 4.

I have posed the question many times: What is the best guard Dallas could get for Gaff, and what decent backup center could they get for Martin, Klay, or Hardy?

I don't hate the fundamentals of a Kuminga to Sac, Monk to Dallas, Gaff to GSW deal. I'd be willing to throw in TJD to help Dallas backfill the C spot. Would require Dallas to dump some salary on a cap space team though to avoid triggering the first apron.

I wouldn't like it if Dallas is the team that has to pay some incentive for that dump, to me it should be Sac. Monk has never really contributed to winning basketball and at this point is bordering on journeyman territory

[gswhoops]

I agree that Gaff isn't worth a first. I don't see any team doing that. Even the Mavs, as mismanaged as they are, really just traded a swap for him, not an outright first.

But the sad fact is that Gaff is probably Dallas' best trade piece that they can and would trade. Lively and AD should occupy the lion share of minutes at the 5, as Dallas has PJ, Naji, and Flagg to spend enough time at the 4.

I have posed the question many times: What is the best guard Dallas could get for Gaff, and what decent backup center could they get for Martin, Klay, or Hardy?

I don't hate the fundamentals of a Kuminga to Sac, Monk to Dallas, Gaff to GSW deal. I'd be willing to throw in TJD to help Dallas backfill the C spot. Would require Dallas to dump some salary on a cap space team though to avoid triggering the first apron.

I wouldn't like it if Dallas is the team that has to pay some incentive for that dump, to me it should be Sac. Monk has never really contributed to winning basketball and at this point is bordering on journeyman territory

I think some team would be willing to eat Powell and/or OMax for relatively cheap?

[jayjaysee]

I agree that Gaff isn't worth a first. I don't see any team doing that. Even the Mavs, as mismanaged as they are, really just traded a swap for him, not an outright first.

But the sad fact is that Gaff is probably Dallas' best trade piece that they can and would trade. Lively and AD should occupy the lion share of minutes at the 5, as Dallas has PJ, Naji, and Flagg to spend enough time at the 4.

I have posed the question many times: What is the best guard Dallas could get for Gaff, and what decent backup center could they get for Martin, Klay, or Hardy?

I don't hate the fundamentals of a Kuminga to Sac, Monk to Dallas, Gaff to GSW deal. I'd be willing to throw in TJD to help Dallas backfill the C spot. Would require Dallas to dump some salary on a cap space team though to avoid triggering the first apron.

I wouldn't like it if Dallas is the team that has to pay some incentive for that dump, to me it should be Sac. Monk has never really contributed to winning basketball and at this point is bordering on journeyman territory

I think if it’s Hardy, and Dallas is getting TJD.. it’s worth adding a second and Sac adding another second?

[longfellow44]

I agree that Gaff isn't worth a first. I don't see any team doing that. Even the Mavs, as mismanaged as they are, really just traded a swap for him, not an outright first.

But the sad fact is that Gaff is probably Dallas' best trade piece that they can and would trade. Lively and AD should occupy the lion share of minutes at the 5, as Dallas has PJ, Naji, and Flagg to spend enough time at the 4.

I have posed the question many times: What is the best guard Dallas could get for Gaff, and what decent backup center could they get for Martin, Klay, or Hardy?

I don't hate the fundamentals of a Kuminga to Sac, Monk to Dallas, Gaff to GSW deal. I'd be willing to throw in TJD to help Dallas backfill the C spot. Would require Dallas to dump some salary on a cap space team though to avoid triggering the first apron.

I wouldn't like it if Dallas is the team that has to pay some incentive for that dump, to me it should be Sac. Monk has never really contributed to winning basketball and at this point is bordering on journeyman territory

I take issue with the idea that monk doesn't contribute to winning when the stats tell the opposite story.

Monk played in 65 games last season we had a record of 36-29 when he played. 17 games without monk our record was 4-13.

Monk is part of the kings best lineup based on advanced stats with a net ratting of +17.1. just to be clear that lineup had a defensive rating of 102.2 meaning they were a very good defensive lineup and that was the kings 3rd most used lineup. monk, derozan, Murray, sabonis and ellis.

I'm a fan of monk and I want people to recognize that the guy is a lot more valuable than people give him credit for.