Hakeem Olajuwon might be the best player I've ever seen!

[kcktiny]

I could go on, but you get the point. He generally played well. I don't know that he was killing everyone all the time... It wasn't really until his early 30s that the Olajuwon most people remember existed

Dream's first 5 years in the league, 1984-85 to 1988-89, through the age of just 26 (and long before his 30s), among all Cs in the league, ranked:

- 1st in points scored (8883)
- 2nd in offensive rebounds (1728)
- 2nd in defensive rebounds (2949)
- 1st in steals (748, more than twice as many as any other C)
- 3rd in blocks (1201)
- 6th in assists (780)

Those 5 years among Cs if he wasn't killing everyone, what C was?

[NZB2323]

I could go on, but you get the point. He generally played well. I don't know that he was killing everyone all the time... It wasn't really until his early 30s that the Olajuwon most people remember existed

Dream's first 5 years in the league, 1984-85 to 1988-89, through the age of just 26 (and long before his 30s), among all Cs in the league, ranked:

- 1st in points scored (8883)
- 2nd in offensive rebounds (1728)
- 2nd in defensive rebounds (2949)
- 1st in steals (748, more than twice as many as any other C)
- 3rd in blocks (1201)
- 6th in assists (780)

Those 5 years among Cs if he wasn't killing everyone, what C was?

Not only that, but Hakeem had a legendary playoff run in 1986 where he destroyed Kareem.

Hakeem: 31 and 11, 58.4 TS%
Kareem: 27 and 7, 52.8 TS%

You can say Kareem was 38, but he had won Finals MVP the previous year and Hakeem was only 23.

Then in the 88 playoffs Hakeem averaged 38 and 17, 64.1 TS%, 39 PER. It’s the record for highest PER in a playoff series.

Hakeem was a beast in his 20s, but compare the teammates he had in his 20s to other all-time greats.

[kcktiny]

Dream was already the best C in the league in just his 2nd season in 1985-86 (although that year Jabbar was named all-NBA 1st team at age 38) and was all-NBA 1st team in just his 3rd season in 1986-87, and also all-NBA 1st team the following 2 seasons, all by the age of just 26.

He was "killing everyone all the time" far more than any other C was well before he was in his 30s.

[PRguy23]

He's in my top 10 and the reasons why pretenders don't enter where he's earned it. He and Sampson dominated the league at such young ages, that one has to wonder of Sampson would have been healthy how great they could have been with them playing the 4/5 together. They switched off and played off each other greatly.

[Mirotic12]

I always felt like prime Jordan/Pippen beats Olajuwon in 94 and 95 if he didn't retire.... He'd be rated back near Barkley, KG and David Robinson in the late teens if he didn't win those two titles... Always felt like he was the guy who's legacy took a massive step forward due to Jordan messing around playing baseball.

I think the opposite. Jordan was lucky he missed Hakeem and the Rockets in those finals.

The Rockets would have beaten the Bulls both times. So the argument that Jordan is the GOAT because he never lost in the finals (which is a nonsense illogical argument anyway) wouldn't have ever become a thing.

The Bulls would have lost those finals to the Rockets, because the Rockets were an absolute nightmare match up for them. The Bulls also had no way at all to deal with Hakeem.

It would have been far easier for him than it was against Ewing and Shaq.

Of all the teams in the NBA at that time, the absolute worst possible match up for the Bulls was that Rockets team.

[Mirotic12]

Giannis is 6'11 barefoot. Hakeem is about 2 inches shorter today, but the man is also 63 years old. He's likely already lost at least an inch in height since his prime. That tells me that despite this photo below of Giannis without shoes, Hakeem was likely 6'10 barefoot in his prime, so 6'11 with shoes. He was hardly undersized, albeit an inch or two shorter than behemoths like Shaq, Robinson, and Ewing.




Here he is standing beside 6'9.25 barefoot Dwight Howard (6'10.5 with shoes) back in 2013. He's clearly at least an inch taller, maybe more. So Hakeem was a pretty big dude. He just looked shorter at times because of his stance and him going up against 7'1 monsters in Shaq, Robinson, Ewing, etc. His shorter height actually helped him quite a bit though imo because his greatest asset was his quickness against those bigger guys.

Supposedly, Giannis ended up at 7 feet barefoot. Who knows if it's really true or not though.

[bstein14]

I always felt like prime Jordan/Pippen beats Olajuwon in 94 and 95 if he didn't retire.... He'd be rated back near Barkley, KG and David Robinson in the late teens if he didn't win those two titles... Always felt like he was the guy who's legacy took a massive step forward due to Jordan messing around playing baseball.

I think the opposite. Jordan was lucky he missed Hakeem and the Rocketsbon those finals.

The Rockets would have beaten the Bulls both times. So the argument that Jordan is the GOAT because he never lost in the finals (which is a nonsense illogical argument anyway) wouldn't have ever become a thing.

The Bulls would have lost those finals to the Rockets, because the Rockets were an absolute nightmare match up for them. The Bulls also had no way at all to deal with Hakeem.

It would have been far easier for him than it was against Ewing and Shaq.

Of all the teams in the NBA at that time, the absolute worst possible match up for the Bulls was that Rockets team.

Houston barely squeaked by a Knicks team in 7 games... a Knicks team that had a 3-2 series lead. Chicago was clearly better than those Knicks who got beat in the ECF by those Bulls in 93. It's one of those situation where we will never really know, but I think Chicago had a better chance against Houston than the Knicks.

1993 Players
Knicks barely beat the Bulls (without MJ) in 7 games
Knicks barely beat the Pacers in 7 games
Rockets barely beat the Knicks in 7 games

[Mirotic12]

Houston barely squeaked by a Knicks team in 7 games... a Knicks team that had a 3-2 series lead. Chicago was clearly better than those Knicks who got beat in the ECF by those Bulls in 93. It's one of those situation where we will never really know, but I think Chicago had a better chance against Houston than the Knicks.

1993 Players
Knicks barely beat the Bulls (without MJ) in 7 games
Knicks barely beat the Pacers in 7 games
Rockets barely beat the Knicks in 7 games

In terms of the head to head match up, that Rockets team was a nightmare for those Bulls teams.

It's not that the Rockets had a better team than those Bulls teams, plus a 100% in shape Jordan, and it's not that Hakeem was better than Jordan either.

It was about the particular head to head match up. I seriously doubt the Bulls would have stood much chance at all, if that match up had taken place.

[druggas]

Houston barely squeaked by a Knicks team in 7 games... a Knicks team that had a 3-2 series lead. Chicago was clearly better than those Knicks who got beat in the ECF by those Bulls in 93. It's one of those situation where we will never really know, but I think Chicago had a better chance against Houston than the Knicks.

1993 Players
Knicks barely beat the Bulls (without MJ) in 7 games
Knicks barely beat the Pacers in 7 games
Rockets barely beat the Knicks in 7 games

In terms of the head to head match up, that Rockets team was a nightmare for those Bulls teams.

It's not that the Rockets had a better team than those Bulls teams, plus a 100% in shape Jordan, and it's not that Hakeem was better than Jordan either.

It was about the particular head to head match up. I seriously doubt the Bulls would have stood much chance at all if that match up had taken place.

I disagree. The Bulls had a tremendous edge in coaching!

[Lunartic]

He's in my top-4 of all time

MJ
Bron
Duncan
Hakeem

[morosis]

ive previously contributed to a Dream thread so I won't repeat how special I think he is.

i understand both sides of this conversation actually. why some people think he's the best, and why people can legitimately say he's overrated. where people rank a guy has so many conflated variables like teammates, injuries, opponents, that its pretty much impossible to universally agree on anything.

rather than trying to find one singular answer to who the best players ever might be, in my mind it makes more sense to separate out the guys who are so good that your best bet for beating them when it matters, even when your really good team prepared specifically to face them, is to just kinda hope they have a bad game, or their teammates dont play well, or they went out partying the night before and didn't sleep, or whatever.

its a lot of guys that meet that criteria. where you, as the opponent, can gameplan for them, do everything within reason to disrupt or stop them, but they still beat you. its probably too many guys to be a satisfying answer for the "goat" conversation. but i consider Dream one of those guys. a player who was so good, its often forgotten outside of basketball nerd circles that he was in the same draft as Jordan, drafted ahead of Jordan, and it wasn't and still isn't considered a mistake.

i do agree that the Dream romanticizing is real. even excessive. but he was just so special to watch that if it comes up around me, and someone around me didnt get to watch him play, it gives me so much joy to introduce them to his game. watching kids eyes light up watching a guy that tall move like that and make genuinely incredible opponents look stuck in the mud and confused, is just awesome. his game and highlight reel are built for the tiktok generation.

[chuck_wagon44]

such a great franchise that they surrounded him with this in his final years. No wonder he went to Toronto rather than finish out playing in Houston. Hmmm. I suppose my original thesis was correct: Houston is a terrible franchise. The couldn't even have their best player ever retire with them.

[mojomarc]

Huge fan of Hakeem (so mad the Blazers lost the coin flip in 84--a decade of Phi Slamma Jamma in the NBA would have been super fun). But I'm wondering what OP would be saying now if video existed of Wilt's quintuple double game.

[og15]

Houston barely squeaked by a Knicks team in 7 games... a Knicks team that had a 3-2 series lead. Chicago was clearly better than those Knicks who got beat in the ECF by those Bulls in 93. It's one of those situation where we will never really know, but I think Chicago had a better chance against Houston than the Knicks.

1993 Players
Knicks barely beat the Bulls (without MJ) in 7 games
Knicks barely beat the Pacers in 7 games
Rockets barely beat the Knicks in 7 games

In terms of the head to head match up, that Rockets team was a nightmare for those Bulls teams.

It's not that the Rockets had a better team than those Bulls teams, plus a 100% in shape Jordan, and it's not that Hakeem was better than Jordan either.

It was about the particular head to head match up. I seriously doubt the Bulls would have stood much chance at all if that match up had taken place.

I disagree. The Bulls had a tremendous edge in coaching!

Yea, it's always tough to judge how tough a matchup truly is from just cross conference regular season play. A playoff game plan and preparation and adjustments is a whole different ball game. I don't think two games a year in the middle of the season captures that at all.

[Joao Saraiva]

I have 1994 Hakeem as the GOAT peak. As for not having the pieces... well, that's not entirely true. He had some scorers, spacers and the system helped him maximize his strenghts. While it wasn't a super team it definitely had fit with the way he played. Also Houston used 4s who could stretch, and as time as shown us that was a big plus for them. It was much better than having Hakeem with another big arround him.

In that sense he wasn't that unlucky, it's not like Hakeem was dragging KG's wolves to NBA titles, Smush Parker to the playoffs or Mozgov and TT to the NBA finals.

Still those are two very deserved titles and from 93 to 95 I think he was the best player in the league (yes, even above 93 MJ who is a beast and close to his peak - a guy with also an argument for GOAT peak).

[FuShengTHEGreat]

I always felt like prime Jordan/Pippen beats Olajuwon in 94 and 95 if he didn't retire.... He'd be rated back near Barkley, KG and David Robinson in the late teens if he didn't win those two titles... Always felt like he was the guy who's legacy took a massive step forward due to Jordan messing around playing baseball.

I think the opposite. Jordan was lucky he missed Hakeem and the Rocketsbon those finals.

The Rockets would have beaten the Bulls both times. So the argument that Jordan is the GOAT because he never lost in the finals (which is a nonsense illogical argument anyway) wouldn't have ever become a thing.

The Bulls would have lost those finals to the Rockets, because the Rockets were an absolute nightmare match up for them. The Bulls also had no way at all to deal with Hakeem.

It would have been far easier for him than it was against Ewing and Shaq.

Of all the teams in the NBA at that time, the absolute worst possible match up for the Bulls was that Rockets team.

Houston barely squeaked by a Knicks team in 7 games... a Knicks team that had a 3-2 series lead. Chicago was clearly better than those Knicks who got beat in the ECF by those Bulls in 93. It's one of those situation where we will never really know, but I think Chicago had a better chance against Houston than the Knicks.

1993 Players
Knicks barely beat the Bulls (without MJ) in 7 games
Knicks barely beat the Pacers in 7 games
Rockets barely beat the Knicks in 7 games

The hypocrisy the Jordan army uses to throw shade at Hakeem and Houston during this span indirectly slanders their own hero and his team.

The Knicks also went 7 games with the 1st 3peat Bulls, but somehow this is only held against Houston.

NY was also up 2-0 vs Jordan and Chicago in 93 and never built such a lead vs Houston the following year. Funny how no one remembers getting criticized mercilessly in the media prior to the game 4 explosion wondering when he was going to get going in the series? Down 2-0 he comes back home and shoots 3 of 18 and the Bulls still won. Fortunately in the 93 ECF he wasnt the only star in Chicago (unlike Hakeem that year who had to lead Houston in all 5 categories both rounds vs LA and Seattle) with Pippen being very efficient and a legit 2nd option.

Hakeem starts out any series in his career with 3 straight lousy games and Houston gets swept. But the so called goat gets a pass.

Overrated and he never negatively affected Hakeem!

[chuck_wagon44]

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