What is a role player?

[Moose]

Star player: Jalen Brunson
All-star player: Towns
Super role player: OG & Bridges
Role player: Josh Hart

Star player is tough to define when it comes to what qualifies as a star. It can't simply be a #1 option on a team because what if that team sucks?

A super role player is someone who is usually a third option type that can maybe make an all-star appearance or two during their career when it all comes together.

[mcfly1204]

All-star player: Jalen Brunson & Towns
Role player: OG & Bridges & Josh Hart

Star player is tough to define when it comes to what qualifies as a star. It can't simply be a #1 option on a team because what if that team sucks?

A super role player is someone who is usually a third option type that can maybe make an all-star appearance or two during their career when it all comes together.

Fixed that for you. A role player is a role player. Good ones may sneak into an All-Star game or two, but they're still just complimentary players. "Star player" is an overused term at this point, but I have them as players who can carry a team to legitimate contention. Jokic, Curry, Giannis, etc..

[Moose]

All-star player: Jalen Brunson & Towns
Role player: OG & Bridges & Josh Hart

Star player is tough to define when it comes to what qualifies as a star. It can't simply be a #1 option on a team because what if that team sucks?

A super role player is someone who is usually a third option type that can maybe make an all-star appearance or two during their career when it all comes together.

Fixed that for you. A role player is a role player. Good ones may sneak into an All-Star game or two, but they're still just complimentary players. "Star player" is an overused term at this point, but I have them as players who can carry a team to legitimate contention. Jokic, Curry, Giannis, etc..

I'm good with that. I was leaping on the back of a previous post that broke it down in more detail.

It's sorta semantics at this point?

[jvsimonetti0514]

Star player: Jalen Brunson
All-star player: Towns
Super role player: OG & Bridges
Role player: Josh Hart

Star player is tough to define when it comes to what qualifies as a star. It can't simply be a #1 option on a team because what if that team sucks?

A super role player is someone who is usually a third option type that can maybe make an all-star appearance or two during their career when it all comes together.

I’ve always liked to use the term starter level instead of super role player. It makes more sense to me cuz I don’t think either of them would ever be asked to play a bench role. If you’re making organizational decisions around a guy or paying them a fat check they deserve their own category. Guys like Josh hart or deuce McBride need to be more flexible in their roles and don’t have the power to get a coach fired.

[dhsilv2]

Role players are just that...they fill a needed role and compliment the "main pieces" of the team. Often they are not considered stars, however at times a role player can step into a bigger "star-like" role if that is the role that is needed to be filled. Role players are often players 4-7 on the depth chart, fairly interchangable bigger minute players that fill the 3&D need, the rim protector need, the playmaker need, the rebounding need, etc.

To me you have:

Superstars - Only like 5-10 of these total in the league, your lucky if you have one
Stars - Guys that are rated roughly 6-40 in the league, your go to players, team leaders, the often All-Stars
Role Players - Guys that are interchangable pending their team they could be a starter or another teams 6th or 7th man
Rotational Piece - End of the rotation guys usually (8-10) on the depth chart, there to give spot minutes to your other guys
Prospects - Young guys you keep on the end of the bench to learn and one day fit into one of the above roles
Bench Warmer - Guys that will rarely see the floor (11-15 on most teams) and likely have limited careers of only a handful of years or are the twilight of their longer career looking for one more run

Weird.

I've always had High level starts in your "role player" slot.

A role player is a highly limited player with one special skill. They come in to fill a singular role. If a role player is a starter, they're an elite one. Like Steve Kerr. Most role players are bench warmers.

[dhsilv2]

This is roughly how things used to be before the internet started this weird thing, where nobody has a clue what "role player" means and even people who feel super sure they know what they think he one is, can't actually define it in a consistent way.

I don't think we have role players in the NBA anymore. They were specialists back when you could have someone with really limited skills. Think a 3 point shooter or a guy who's only real job was to foul shaq. Any more than that and you're no longer a role player.

MVP level
Super stars
Stars
High level Starters
Rotation players
Solid Reserves
Role players
Bench Warmers

[dhsilv2]

A role-player is any player who isn't a top 2 (or 3) scoring option.

Bill Russell was a role player?

If he fits that definition, for me, yes.

Same with Rodman, Wallace, Draymond Green, and Garnett (toward the end).

What's even the use of a term when it can include the GOAT nba player?

[dhsilv2]

It's not complex, is it? Stars are above average in multiple facets of the game, a role player is above average in one or two?

Well that leaves nearly 70% of the league as a star if we do that. Most players who start are average to above average in multiple facets. That's why they are starters. Of those some guys are exceptionally great in a few areas and are stars. While other guys are truly in the league for 1 thing, which was always what we used to call a role player. Today...I haven't a clue what people are even talking about.

[Haldi]

I always think of Boris Diaw(the Spurs edition) when i want to describe a role player.
Andre Iguodala(the late Warriors years) is another good example.

They can play as starters but they serve the system better coming off the bench.
They usually are specialists on defense and have a prime offensive skill(3pt shooting or passing).
They can play more than one position.
They are the ones who will fill the void if an injury occurs on a starter regardless of position.
(See PJ Tucker on the '21 Bucks. Divincenzo was injured in the playoffs and PJ became a starter on a position of need(SG)).

Everybody love good role players. They give champuonships.

While I 100% understand your point of view, I think I have a somewhat different definition of it. Not saying mine is right and yours is wrong at all though lol.

To me a role player is a player who’s role on a team is really to just 2-3 things, and isn’t expected to do everything. Elite role players do these few things at an elite level of course.

Rodman and Ben Wallace. These two absolute defensive phenoms were the best of the best, at the few things they were on the court for. Their role was this, this and that, and most importantly, NOTHING ELSE. They were terrible shooters, terrible ball handlers, terrible passers with terrible court vision. I’ve heard people call Rodman a great passer lol, like knowing how to make a basic outlet pass or how to reset to your guard at the top of the key is somehow hard. There are tons of high schoolers that have more basketball talent in their left nut than both these guys combined, yet, they were some of the most important pieces on absolute elite teams. That right there is what you want in a role player. A guy that plays his role and nothing else. He doesn’t try to take a shot he’s not supposed to cause he’s open. He doesn’t try to dribble when he’s not supposed to.

The 99 Lakers vs the 2000 Lakers is another good example. The 98 and 99 Lakers had 4 all stars on that team, with the most dominant player we’ve probably ever seen and couldn’t win **** (Kobe was still very young and learning too of course). In summer of 99, they got rid of eddy jones and nick and really built their team around Shaq and Kobe. They added guys like Fisher and Fox and Horry who were there to play their roles around kobe and shaq, and nothing else. With nick and eddy kinda doing whatever, it never worked. Immediately after the change, they were one of the most unbeatable teams Ive ever seen.

Guys like Boris Diaw and old Iggy are kinda all around players that can do a bit of everything for you. I would agree that they never overstepped and tried to do too much, so sticking to their ‘role’ if you will.

So I guess ‘role player’ can have slightly different meanings, but to me its more the guys that a coach before he puts him in the game will be like

“ok Rudy, you suck, you cant dribble, you can’t shoot, you’re too small for your position, but dammit you got heart kid. I want you to dart for number 81, break his leg in two, get up, maybe a fist pump or two and run off the field! That’s your job kid, can you do your job kid?” Lol

[dhsilv2]

In summer of 99, they got rid of eddy jones and nick and really built their team around Shaq and Kobe. They added guys like Fisher and Fox and Horry who were there to play their roles around kobe and shaq, and nothing else. With nick and eddy kinda doing whatever, it never worked. Immediately after the change, they were one of the most unbeatable teams Ive ever seen.

Fisher was already there. But how do Horry, Fisher and Fox fit your 1 or 2 thing? Fox I might be misremembering but the other two are pretty complete players.

[Snakebites]

A role player is a supporting piece rather than a core part of the team. Role players can be very useful, but are usually at least somewhat replaceable.

[mcfly1204]

It's not complex, is it? Stars are above average in multiple facets of the game, a role player is above average in one or two?

Well that leaves nearly 70% of the league as a star if we do that. Most players who start are average to above average in multiple facets. That's why they are starters. Of those some guys are exceptionally great in a few areas and are stars. While other guys are truly in the league for 1 thing, which was always what we used to call a role player. Today...I haven't a clue what people are even talking about.

Nearly 70% of the league is above average at 3 or more facets of the game? Not sure you understand how averages work...

[dhsilv2]

It's not complex, is it? Stars are above average in multiple facets of the game, a role player is above average in one or two?

Well that leaves nearly 70% of the league as a star if we do that. Most players who start are average to above average in multiple facets. That's why they are starters. Of those some guys are exceptionally great in a few areas and are stars. While other guys are truly in the league for 1 thing, which was always what we used to call a role player. Today...I haven't a clue what people are even talking about.

Nearly 70% of the league is above average at 3 or more facets of the game? Not sure you understand how averages work...

Well there are dozens of facets of the game...so yes. That is how averages work.

[QMemphis]

A complementary player that can play on and off ball. Most great role players understand how to be effective without the ball. Defense is also key in certain regards. But can you fill a role of either rebounding, defense, passing, shooting or etc. Most players can be effective as role players if they shift their mindset.

[mcfly1204]

Well that leaves nearly 70% of the league as a star if we do that. Most players who start are average to above average in multiple facets. That's why they are starters. Of those some guys are exceptionally great in a few areas and are stars. While other guys are truly in the league for 1 thing, which was always what we used to call a role player. Today...I haven't a clue what people are even talking about.

Nearly 70% of the league is above average at 3 or more facets of the game? Not sure you understand how averages work...

Well there are dozens of facets of the game...so yes. That is how averages work.

I think you're diluting the conversation with your claim of dozens of facets.

dribbling
passing
shooting
defense
rebounding

[dhsilv2]

Nearly 70% of the league is above average at 3 or more facets of the game? Not sure you understand how averages work...

Well there are dozens of facets of the game...so yes. That is how averages work.

I think you're diluting the conversation with your claim of dozens of facets.

dribbling
passing
shooting
defense
rebounding

Man defense, team defense, screening, big body for space (think guys to hack shaq), rebounding is both offensive and defensive, they are different skillsets often.

Saying defense almost makes this just sound absurd. There's guys who are POA defenders on smalls, there are post defenders. Defense is more complex and has more facets than offense.

[mcfly1204]

Well there are dozens of facets of the game...so yes. That is how averages work.

I think you're diluting the conversation with your claim of dozens of facets.

dribbling
passing
shooting
defense
rebounding

Man defense, team defense, screening, big body for space (think guys to hack shaq), rebounding is both offensive and defensive, they are different skillsets often.

Saying defense almost makes this just sound absurd. There's guys who are POA defenders on smalls, there are post defenders. Defense is more complex and has more facets than offense.

Yeah, well, that's just like, your opinion, man.

[dhsilv2]

I think you're diluting the conversation with your claim of dozens of facets.

dribbling
passing
shooting
defense
rebounding

Man defense, team defense, screening, big body for space (think guys to hack shaq), rebounding is both offensive and defensive, they are different skillsets often.

Saying defense almost makes this just sound absurd. There's guys who are POA defenders on smalls, there are post defenders. Defense is more complex and has more facets than offense.

Yeah, well, that's just like, your opinion, man.

Nah, while we might be able to argue about some nuance here. Your list is simply wrong. You're trying to dumb the game down far too much.

Saying "defense" is a facet alone isn't a debatable topic. It's just false. Just some ideas of different types of defenders to think about.

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And from here, are you a POA small or wing or big defender? There's so much more nuance.

Just to show how stupid that would sound. Jrue is a really great POA defender. But I can't put him on Jokic to stop Jokic's attack.

[mcfly1204]

Man defense, team defense, screening, big body for space (think guys to hack shaq), rebounding is both offensive and defensive, they are different skillsets often.

Saying defense almost makes this just sound absurd. There's guys who are POA defenders on smalls, there are post defenders. Defense is more complex and has more facets than offense.

Yeah, well, that's just like, your opinion, man.

Nah, while we might be able to argue about some nuance here. Your list is simply wrong. You're trying to dumb the game down far too much.

Saying "defense" is a facet alone isn't a debatable topic. It's just false. Just some ideas of different types of defenders to think about.

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And from here, are you a POA small or wing or big defender? There's so much more nuance.

Just to show how stupid that would sound. Jrue is a really great POA defender. But I can't put him on Jokic to stop Jokic's attack.

Don't get me wrong here, I agree that each facet of the game includes varying level of nuance, but to go back to my original comment, it is much more straightforward, and not all that uncommon, to leave the bulk of the nuance out of such conversations. Is player A above average at shooting and defense, but not other areas of the game? There's a term for that, 3 and D, which is considered a role player.

[dhsilv2]

Yeah, well, that's just like, your opinion, man.

Nah, while we might be able to argue about some nuance here. Your list is simply wrong. You're trying to dumb the game down far too much.

Saying "defense" is a facet alone isn't a debatable topic. It's just false. Just some ideas of different types of defenders to think about.

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And from here, are you a POA small or wing or big defender? There's so much more nuance.

Just to show how stupid that would sound. Jrue is a really great POA defender. But I can't put him on Jokic to stop Jokic's attack.

Don't get me wrong here, I agree that each facet of the game includes varying level of nuance, but to go back to my original comment, it is much more straightforward, and not all that uncommon, to leave the bulk of the nuance out of such conversations. Is player A above average at shooting and defense, but not other areas of the game? There's a term for that, 3 and D, which is considered a role player.

There are some people who call 3&D a role player. The point of this thread and as you can read, it's wildly all over the board.

But lets use my favorite 3&D example Klay. He's of course considered by some as a star because he's so good off ball that he can get better shots and is strong enough to get them in a lot of places. But among wings (and since this too gets debated for these purposes lets call it guys who are traditional shooting guards, small forwards, any maybe a small ball 4 today), he's a bad ball handler, he's a terrible rebounder, below average passer. Defensively, many might call him good but even if you do we gotta break that down. He's versatile in that he can guard small guards and big wings at the point of attack. But he's really bad off ball, often losing his man and allowing backdoor cuts creating really easy offense for the other team.

Now lets take a new guy, Christian Braun. He's another wing. He's a good shooter, above average. A decent handle. Rebounds well. Is a good on and off ball defender. Now...in general...he's pretty much just above average at everything. Not a star or anything but just a really complete solid guy. Maybe you argue he's at or below in one or two things but I'd lean he's basically average + everywhere.

Now I think calling either guy a role player makes that term kinda useless. Klay being too good for many and Bruan too complete a player. And this is why the terms are tough.

There are a lot of guys like Braun, really good at most things but not great at anything. There are still many guys like Klay great at one thing, maybe very good at another...and not that complete.

And this is why I pointed out that a good 70% of players (I should qualify with, who gets meaningful minutes) are not role players then. But you have to at least break down defense into a few areas. You can't have Klay just blanket "good defender" as he's strong in on area and weak in another. And we still with this method don't really show that Klay was better than Braun, even if he's more a "role play" by this definition than Braun.