A real #2

[KGdaBom]

Wolves don't have a "#2". We have Ant and a bunch of guys who can score at different times. My issue is given Ant's game, I don't want him to be a playmaker, I want him to be a ruthless scorer. That doesn't mean ball hog and never get an assist, but it means I want players and an offense designed around maximizing his scoring abilities (Finch problem). Hence why Mike is important, he can get things set up, manipulate the floor and put people in the best spots for them. Our best #2 would be a "do it all" style point guard, but in an actual offense built around Edwards, not around ball movement and involving everyone. Example, triangle offense (Jordan/Kobe), Ant setting screens and rolling to post up, running him through a series of screens to get him looks (Curry/Allen). I think Finch wants Ant to be a 20 pt 10 asst type of guy, I don't think that's natural to him, I want Ant to be a 40 pt 5 asst guy which I think he is. But it can't be just him playing ISO ball, unless he starts getting SGA's whistle....but that would be awful for the game.

Who was the last 40PPG scorer in the NBA? Wilt Chamberlain? 40 and 5 on high efficiency would be great. I'd like a high quality younger PG to join our team. I don't want Ant handling the ball more than 5 seconds at a time. I hate watching him pound the rock trying to find an opening. It drives me crazy.

[BlacJacMac]

Wolves don't have a "#2". We have Ant and a bunch of guys who can score at different times. My issue is given Ant's game, I don't want him to be a playmaker, I want him to be a ruthless scorer. That doesn't mean ball hog and never get an assist, but it means I want players and an offense designed around maximizing his scoring abilities (Finch problem). Hence why Mike is important, he can get things set up, manipulate the floor and put people in the best spots for them. Our best #2 would be a "do it all" style point guard, but in an actual offense built around Edwards, not around ball movement and involving everyone. Example, triangle offense (Jordan/Kobe), Ant setting screens and rolling to post up, running him through a series of screens to get him looks (Curry/Allen). I think Finch wants Ant to be a 20 pt 10 asst type of guy, I don't think that's natural to him, I want Ant to be a 40 pt 5 asst guy which I think he is. But it can't be just him playing ISO ball, unless he starts getting SGA's whistle....but that would be awful for the game.

Who was the last 40PPG scorer in the NBA? Wilt Chamberlain? 40 and 5 on high efficiency would be great. I'd like a high quality younger PG to join our team. I don't want Ant handling the ball more than 5 seconds at a time. I hate watching him pound the rock trying to find an opening. It drives me crazy.

Wilt is the only guy to ever do it.

Since Jordan scored 37 PPG in 1986, we've had 3 guys break 35. Harden's 36 in 2018, Kobe's 35 in 2005 and Jordan with 35 in 1987..

[cmoss84]

How do you know which draft picks we can trade? I can't figure it out on spotrac...

[BlacJacMac]

How do you know which draft picks we can trade? I can't figure it out on spotrac...

Its the Stepien Rule. You can't not have a 1st round pick in 2 consecutive years.

Since we traded our 2027 pick, it means we can't trade our 2026 or 2028 pick.

We also can't trade our 2028 pick because we've traded our 2029 pick.

2026 has a swap attached to it, so we can't trade that pick, plus 2027 is already traded.
2027 goes to Utah or Phoenix.
2028 is frozen because of the Stepien Rule. But we can still use it in a pick swap for another 1st if we choose.
2029 goes to Utah or Charlotte
2030 has a swap attached to it, so we couldn't trade that pick even not accounting for the Stepien Rule. Plus 2031 is already traded.
2031 goes to Sacramento.
2032 is frozen because of the Stepien Rule. But we can still use it in a pick swap for another 1st if we choose.
2033 and beyond can not be traded yet as they're more than 7 years off.

Now, we could trade 2028 if we acquire another 1st round pick that year. The Stepien Rule only requires that you have a 1st round pick. It doesn't have to be your own.

[Wolveswin]

How do folks here feel about Herro as Wolves target?

Yes, difficult trade to figure out in which Heat part with Herro, but doable. To start, I think Heat are a team where Randle makes good sense.

[BlacJacMac]

How do folks here feel about Herro as Wolves target?

Yes, difficult trade to figure out in which Heat part with Herro, but doable. To start, I think Heat are a team where Randle makes good sense.

I'm not a huge fan.

I guess if we trade for him, its to start at PG? Defensively Ant and Jaden will really have to cover for him - and be the primary POA defenders.

He misses a lot of games and he really gets exposed in the postseason on both ends.

[Klomp]

How do folks here feel about Herro as Wolves target?

Yes, difficult trade to figure out in which Heat part with Herro, but doable. To start, I think Heat are a team where Randle makes good sense.

It's probably around the caliber of player we're looking for, but I don't know if the contract is right for us.

[Wolveswin]

How do folks here feel about Herro as Wolves target?

Yes, difficult trade to figure out in which Heat part with Herro, but doable. To start, I think Heat are a team where Randle makes good sense.

It's probably around the caliber of player we're looking for, but I don't know if the contract is right for us.

Contract is why Suggs is #2 on my list (after Melo Ball). Just over 26M on final two years of his salary decreasing deal. Add in his elite D and improved shooting (nice steady improvement ideally), along with his core fitting age and positional fit next to Edwards, Suggs sits within Wolves price range. Herro too, but I like Suggs better.

[Klomp]

How do folks here feel about Herro as Wolves target?

Yes, difficult trade to figure out in which Heat part with Herro, but doable. To start, I think Heat are a team where Randle makes good sense.

It's probably around the caliber of player we're looking for, but I don't know if the contract is right for us.

Contract is why Suggs is #2 on my list (after Melo Ball). Just over 26M on final two years of his salary decreasing deal. Add in his elite D and improved shooting (nice steady improvement ideally), along with his core fitting age and positional fit next to Edwards, Suggs sits within Wolves price range. Herro too, but I like Suggs better.

I love the Suggs fit too (and no people, it's not because he's from Minnesota).

Honestly, I think he would provide a lot of what PatBev brought.

[BlacJacMac]

How do folks here feel about Herro as Wolves target?

Yes, difficult trade to figure out in which Heat part with Herro, but doable. To start, I think Heat are a team where Randle makes good sense.

It's probably around the caliber of player we're looking for, but I don't know if the contract is right for us.

Contract is why Suggs is #2 on my list (after Melo Ball). Just over 26M on final two years of his salary decreasing deal. Add in his elite D and improved shooting (nice steady improvement ideally), along with his core fitting age and positional fit next to Edwards, Suggs sits within Wolves price range. Herro too, but I like Suggs better.

I don't trust one year of good shooting. Plus, he's never healthy.

I love the idea of Suggs. Not a fan of the reality.

[Wolveswin]

It's probably around the caliber of player we're looking for, but I don't know if the contract is right for us.

Contract is why Suggs is #2 on my list (after Melo Ball). Just over 26M on final two years of his salary decreasing deal. Add in his elite D and improved shooting (nice steady improvement ideally), along with his core fitting age and positional fit next to Edwards, Suggs sits within Wolves price range. Herro too, but I like Suggs better.

I don't trust one year of good shooting. Plus, he's never healthy.

I love the idea of Suggs. Not a fan of the reality.

You are looking at it the wrong way. If both of those things were NOT relatively true - Suggs wouldn’t be in Wolves price point. He Barely is the way it stands. A great shooting always healthy Suggs is unattainable by Wolves.

If Wolves acquired Suggs and his contract - at worst they are a better roster than it stands now. But the upside, say Suggs shooting steadily improves and he stays little (to much) more healthy than historical, Wolves become a true championship team.

Reminder: Edwards, McDaniels, Reid, etc development is a constant variable in both scenarios.

[BlacJacMac]

Contract is why Suggs is #2 on my list (after Melo Ball). Just over 26M on final two years of his salary decreasing deal. Add in his elite D and improved shooting (nice steady improvement ideally), along with his core fitting age and positional fit next to Edwards, Suggs sits within Wolves price range. Herro too, but I like Suggs better.

I don't trust one year of good shooting. Plus, he's never healthy.

I love the idea of Suggs. Not a fan of the reality.

You are looking at it the wrong way. If both of those things were NOT relatively true - Suggs wouldn’t be in Wolves price point. He Barely is the way it stands. A great shooting always healthy Suggs is unattainable by Wolves.

If Wolves acquired Suggs and his contract - at worst they are a better roster than it stands now. But the upside, say Suggs shooting steadily improves and he stays little (to much) more healthy than historical, Wolves become a true championship team.

Reminder: Edwards, McDaniels, Reid, etc development is a constant variable in both scenarios.

I'm looking at it through reality. Availability doesn't mean he's a bargain.

He had 2 terrible years shooting the ball. His 3rd year he shot the hell out of the ball - way above what he had done the previous 2 or in college. And it should be noted that he finished that great 3rd year by shooting 40/29 in 7 Playoff games. Regression to the mean.

Then his 4th year, he shot the ball exactly like he did his first 2. And got hurt. Again.

The 3rd year looks like a clear outlier.

And he's played in 211 games while missing 117.

I'd be slightly more interested if he could actually play even a semi-competent PG. But Ant would have to be the primary ballhandler when they played together.

[Klomp]

I don't trust one year of good shooting. Plus, he's never healthy.

I love the idea of Suggs. Not a fan of the reality.

Honestly, one might directly tie into the other. In his "one year of good shooting" (.397 on 5.1 3PApg), he played 75 games and was an all-defense 2nd teamer.

If he gives you all-league defense AND 40% shooting, that's Top 30 potential. Even with one and not the other, it's probably a Jaden-level player. It's also worth noting he is on a declining contract. $35 million this year (so I don't think we could get him this season 1-for-1 unless trading Rudy), but dropping down to $26.7M by 2029-30. Incredible potential value over the life of the deal.

[Klomp]

Honestly, I'd take a long look at Josh Giddey. I know he's not who you think of when talking about No. 2 options, but I think he could really do numbers for the offense in ways that a few of us talked about Lonzo Ball doing. Adding him makes Anthony Edwards better. Adding him makes Jaden McDaniels better. Adding him makes Naz Reid better. Adding him makes Rudy Gobert better. Adding him makes Donte DiVincenzo better. Et cetera. Et cetera. Et cetera.

[KGdaBom]

Honestly, I'd take a long look at Josh Giddey. I know he's not who you think of when talking about No. 2 options, but I think he could really do numbers for the offense in ways that a few of us talked about Lonzo Ball doing. Adding him makes Anthony Edwards better. Adding him makes Jaden McDaniels better. Adding him makes Naz Reid better. Adding him makes Rudy Gobert better. Adding him makes Donte DiVincenzo better. Et cetera. Et cetera. Et cetera.

OK let's get Giddey. I think his skills would fit our team nicely. The subject of this thread is A real #2. With 30 NBA teams we clearly have one of the top 30 in Ant and a couple of borderline top 30s in Randle and McDaniels. Then we got Rudy who I think is definitely still in the top 60 where mathematically speaking #2s should be. We have enough talent. We just need to put it all together.

[BlacJacMac]

Honestly, I'd take a long look at Josh Giddey. I know he's not who you think of when talking about No. 2 options, but I think he could really do numbers for the offense in ways that a few of us talked about Lonzo Ball doing. Adding him makes Anthony Edwards better. Adding him makes Jaden McDaniels better. Adding him makes Naz Reid better. Adding him makes Rudy Gobert better. Adding him makes Donte DiVincenzo better. Et cetera. Et cetera. Et cetera.

I think Giddey is super interesting.

Like Suggs, if the shooting he displayed last year is real, he's a star. If he regresses to his OKC levels, he's a guy who got played off the court.

You also have to "hide" him defensively on the weakest scoring wing the other team has.

[Wolveswin]

I don't trust one year of good shooting. Plus, he's never healthy.

I love the idea of Suggs. Not a fan of the reality.

You are looking at it the wrong way. If both of those things were NOT relatively true - Suggs wouldn’t be in Wolves price point. He Barely is the way it stands. A great shooting always healthy Suggs is unattainable by Wolves.

If Wolves acquired Suggs and his contract - at worst they are a better roster than it stands now. But the upside, say Suggs shooting steadily improves and he stays little (to much) more healthy than historical, Wolves become a true championship team.

Reminder: Edwards, McDaniels, Reid, etc development is a constant variable in both scenarios.

I'm looking at it through reality. Availability doesn't mean he's a bargain.

He had 2 terrible years shooting the ball. His 3rd year he shot the hell out of the ball - way above what he had done the previous 2 or in college. And it should be noted that he finished that great 3rd year by shooting 40/29 in 7 Playoff games. Regression to the mean.

Then his 4th year, he shot the ball exactly like he did his first 2. And got hurt. Again.

The 3rd year looks like a clear outlier.

And he's played in 211 games while missing 117.

I'd be slightly more interested if he could actually play even a semi-competent PG. But Ant would have to be the primary ballhandler when they played together.

If in Orlando or Minnesota, we will see how Suggs does as primary guard - because that will be his role this year. He isn’t a traditional PG because that isn’t what Orlando or Minnesota needs. You don’t trade for Suggs if you need a traditional PG as Wolves don’t. You trade for Suggs for his elite defense (a given) and his expected improvement in shooting and health - both of which because - as you lay out - are why he is in Wolves price point.

[BlacJacMac]

You are looking at it the wrong way. If both of those things were NOT relatively true - Suggs wouldn’t be in Wolves price point. He Barely is the way it stands. A great shooting always healthy Suggs is unattainable by Wolves.

If Wolves acquired Suggs and his contract - at worst they are a better roster than it stands now. But the upside, say Suggs shooting steadily improves and he stays little (to much) more healthy than historical, Wolves become a true championship team.

Reminder: Edwards, McDaniels, Reid, etc development is a constant variable in both scenarios.

I'm looking at it through reality. Availability doesn't mean he's a bargain.

He had 2 terrible years shooting the ball. His 3rd year he shot the hell out of the ball - way above what he had done the previous 2 or in college. And it should be noted that he finished that great 3rd year by shooting 40/29 in 7 Playoff games. Regression to the mean.

Then his 4th year, he shot the ball exactly like he did his first 2. And got hurt. Again.

The 3rd year looks like a clear outlier.

And he's played in 211 games while missing 117.

I'd be slightly more interested if he could actually play even a semi-competent PG. But Ant would have to be the primary ballhandler when they played together.

If in Orlando or Minnesota, we will see how Suggs does as primary guard - because that will be his role this year. He isn’t a traditional PG because that isn’t what Orlando or Minnesota needs. You don’t trade for Suggs if you need a traditional PG as Wolves don’t. You trade for Suggs for his elite defense (a given) and his expected improvement in shooting and health - both of which because - as you lay out - are why he is in Wolves price point.

They keep drafting and acquiring PGs because he's clearly not the answer at that spot. At best, he's a secondary ballhandler.

But it really only matters for the handful of games he plays...

[Wolveswin]

I'm looking at it through reality. Availability doesn't mean he's a bargain.

He had 2 terrible years shooting the ball. His 3rd year he shot the hell out of the ball - way above what he had done the previous 2 or in college. And it should be noted that he finished that great 3rd year by shooting 40/29 in 7 Playoff games. Regression to the mean.

Then his 4th year, he shot the ball exactly like he did his first 2. And got hurt. Again.

The 3rd year looks like a clear outlier.

And he's played in 211 games while missing 117.

I'd be slightly more interested if he could actually play even a semi-competent PG. But Ant would have to be the primary ballhandler when they played together.

If in Orlando or Minnesota, we will see how Suggs does as primary guard - because that will be his role this year. He isn’t a traditional PG because that isn’t what Orlando or Minnesota needs. You don’t trade for Suggs if you need a traditional PG as Wolves don’t. You trade for Suggs for his elite defense (a given) and his expected improvement in shooting and health - both of which because - as you lay out - are why he is in Wolves price point.

They keep drafting and acquiring PGs because he's clearly not the answer at that spot. At best, he's a secondary ballhandler.

But it really only matters for the handful of games he plays...

Not true. Who was the SG replacing Suggs because Orlando was moving Suggs to lead guard? Until they traded for Bane, Suggs was best SG on their roster and finding a PG was only hole.

Don’t make stuff up to fit your narrative.

[BlacJacMac]

If in Orlando or Minnesota, we will see how Suggs does as primary guard - because that will be his role this year. He isn’t a traditional PG because that isn’t what Orlando or Minnesota needs. You don’t trade for Suggs if you need a traditional PG as Wolves don’t. You trade for Suggs for his elite defense (a given) and his expected improvement in shooting and health - both of which because - as you lay out - are why he is in Wolves price point.

They keep drafting and acquiring PGs because he's clearly not the answer at that spot. At best, he's a secondary ballhandler.

But it really only matters for the handful of games he plays...

Not true. Who was the SG replacing Suggs because Orlando was moving Suggs to lead guard? Until they traded for Bane, Suggs was best SG on their roster and finding a PG was only hole.

Don’t make stuff up to fit your narrative.

I'm saying ORL has tried Suggs at PG a lot.

For his career, BBREF has Suggs as playing:
PG: 39%
SG: 55%
SF: 7%