2025 Offseason Thread Vol.6

[3ammy3uck3ts]

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[joeshred]

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Hows his defense?

[3ammy3uck3ts]

Read on Twitter

Hows his defense?

Probably a lot like Tyler and Duncan’s unfortunately

[HeatFanLifer]

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Hows his defense?

Probably a lot like Tyler and Duncan’s unfortunately

Who is this Duncan guy you speak of? Never heard of him.

[VaDe255]

Sandwich him in between Cade Cunningham and Ausar Thompson at his 'price tag' and they're contending for the EC title next year. He's not the problem with this team no matter how much people try to force it.

For me it's all about how Spo uses him. Over reliance on Herro as a ball handler and a passer in half court as if he is James Harden puts the Heat in a bind at times. When Herro can focus more as a scorer, he is at his best.

All he does is try to score, the type of player you’re describing is a Jordan Clarkson, Lou Williams, or Jamal Crawford. If that’s the role he needs to play then so be it, he should be paid for that role as well.

Pistons are contending for the East next year with or without Tyler and they just snagged an elite shooter that fits what they need better than Tyler, they dont need someone to take the ball out of Cades hands. No one’s forcing Herro as the problem in this discussion, we’re disputing that he’s not the final piece to a dynasty for 2 teams that got bounced pretty handedly before the Finals lol. OKC or Indy would’ve ate him alive just like Cleveland did

I don’t think you realize how far Herro’s come what he did last year already put him beyond the peaks of the guys you mentioned.

His skill set fits the modern game perfectly. The real mistake is trying to pigeonhole him as just a “bench scorer/secondary playmaker”. The only way to find his ceiling is to let him run as the offensive engine and he already showed flashes that he's capable last year. If it doesn’t work, fine, you move on. But if it does, you’ve unlocked something most teams spend their whole rebuild chasing.

And funny enough, you won’t guess what Warriors fans used to say about Curry:

“His ankles are made of glass, trade him before he breaks again”
“Monta’s clearly the guy, Steph should be the sixth man”
“He’s just a flashy shooter, not someone you build around”

Not saying this is the same story but maybe show a little patience before writing off a 25y old who’s improved every single season

[contract]

I don’t think you realize how far Herro’s come what he did last year already put him beyond the peaks of the guys you mentioned.

His skill set fits the modern game perfectly. The real mistake is trying to pigeonhole him as just a “bench scorer/secondary playmaker”. The only way to find his ceiling is to let him run as the offensive engine and he already showed flashes that he's capable last year. If it doesn’t work, fine, you move on. But if it does, you’ve unlocked something most teams spend their whole rebuild chasing.

And funny enough, you won’t guess what Warriors fans used to say about Curry:

“His ankles are made of glass, trade him before he breaks again”
“Monta’s clearly the guy, Steph should be the sixth man”
“He’s just a flashy shooter, not someone you build around”

Not saying this is the same story but maybe show a little patience before writing off a 25y old who’s improved every single season

Tyler Herro is not Steph Curry. Not today. Not tomorrow. Not ever. Absolute best case scenario is he will grow up to be Jeff Hornacek ... except our guy has a green light to dominate the ball and shoot in a way that Hornacek never did.

[Kobewade11]

30 days to the start of camp

[3ammy3uck3ts]

For me it's all about how Spo uses him. Over reliance on Herro as a ball handler and a passer in half court as if he is James Harden puts the Heat in a bind at times. When Herro can focus more as a scorer, he is at his best.

All he does is try to score, the type of player you’re describing is a Jordan Clarkson, Lou Williams, or Jamal Crawford. If that’s the role he needs to play then so be it, he should be paid for that role as well.

Pistons are contending for the East next year with or without Tyler and they just snagged an elite shooter that fits what they need better than Tyler, they dont need someone to take the ball out of Cades hands. No one’s forcing Herro as the problem in this discussion, we’re disputing that he’s not the final piece to a dynasty for 2 teams that got bounced pretty handedly before the Finals lol. OKC or Indy would’ve ate him alive just like Cleveland did

I don’t think you realize how far Herro’s come what he did last year already put him beyond the peaks of the guys you mentioned.

His skill set fits the modern game perfectly. The real mistake is trying to pigeonhole him as just a “bench scorer/secondary playmaker”. The only way to find his ceiling is to let him run as the offensive engine and he already showed flashes that he's capable last year. If it doesn’t work, fine, you move on. But if it does, you’ve unlocked something most teams spend their whole rebuild chasing.

And funny enough, you won’t guess what Warriors fans used to say about Curry:

“His ankles are made of glass, trade him before he breaks again”
“Monta’s clearly the guy, Steph should be the sixth man”
“He’s just a flashy shooter, not someone you build around”

Not saying this is the same story but maybe show a little patience before writing off a 25y old who’s improved every single season

He’s definitely better than Clarkson ever was, Lou Will and Jamal I’m not sure because we never saw them as 1st options leading their teams in shot attempts and usage for 4 straight seasons, they played their proper role as high volume bench scoring spark plugs.

Herros an elite shooter so that’s definitely good for the modern NBA but will it ever translate when the games matter? Will he ever be a respectable defender to where teams can’t just hunt him nonstop? We have yet to see it and you and I have talked about this, that’s the next step. The regular season stuff is cool but ultimately if it never translates none of it matters.

He definitely hasn’t improved every season, his volume improved so his numbers jumped a little early on then he was pretty stagnant for a couple seasons, this last year though there was absolutely a noticeable improvement in his game. We’ll see if he can sustain it across multiple years.

You all have got to stop comparing him to Steph, we’re talking about a what top 10, 15, 20 player ever? Herro will never be that level. He’s not the shooter, not as good off ball, not near the handle or playmaking, and not even the defense. They’re both good shooters but they don’t compare.

[shanedude]

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Hows his defense?

Probably a lot like Tyler and Duncan’s unfortunately

Based on what? Your pessimism? Or him being white?

[VaDe255]

Spoiler:

All he does is try to score, the type of player you’re describing is a Jordan Clarkson, Lou Williams, or Jamal Crawford. If that’s the role he needs to play then so be it, he should be paid for that role as well.

Pistons are contending for the East next year with or without Tyler and they just snagged an elite shooter that fits what they need better than Tyler, they dont need someone to take the ball out of Cades hands. No one’s forcing Herro as the problem in this discussion, we’re disputing that he’s not the final piece to a dynasty for 2 teams that got bounced pretty handedly before the Finals lol. OKC or Indy would’ve ate him alive just like Cleveland did

I don’t think you realize how far Herro’s come what he did last year already put him beyond the peaks of the guys you mentioned.

His skill set fits the modern game perfectly. The real mistake is trying to pigeonhole him as just a “bench scorer/secondary playmaker”. The only way to find his ceiling is to let him run as the offensive engine and he already showed flashes that he's capable last year. If it doesn’t work, fine, you move on. But if it does, you’ve unlocked something most teams spend their whole rebuild chasing.

And funny enough, you won’t guess what Warriors fans used to say about Curry:

“His ankles are made of glass, trade him before he breaks again”
“Monta’s clearly the guy, Steph should be the sixth man”
“He’s just a flashy shooter, not someone you build around”

Not saying this is the same story but maybe show a little patience before writing off a 25y old who’s improved every single season

He’s definitely better than Clarkson ever was, Lou Will and Jamal I’m not sure because we never saw them as 1st options leading their teams in shot attempts and usage for 4 straight seasons, they played their proper role as high volume bench scoring spark plugs.

Herros an elite shooter so that’s definitely good for the modern NBA but will it ever translate when the games matter? Will he ever be a respectable defender to where teams can’t just hunt him nonstop? We have yet to see it and you and I have talked about this, that’s the next step. The regular season stuff is cool but ultimately if it never translates none of it matters.

He definitely hasn’t improved every season, his volume improved so his numbers jumped a little early on then he was pretty stagnant for a couple seasons, this last year though there was absolutely a noticeable improvement in his game. We’ll see if he can sustain it across multiple years.

You all have got to stop comparing him to Steph, we’re talking about a what top 10, 15, 20 player ever? Herro will never be that level. He’s not the shooter, not as good off ball, not near the handle or playmaking, and not even the defense. They’re both good shooters but they don’t compare.

The Curry bit, not a comp, just perspective:

People once said “glass ankles,” “sixth man,” “not a guy you build around.” The lesson isn’t “Herro = Steph”, it’s don’t freeze a 25y old in amber while he’s still learning the game

The evidence points to Tyler’s trajectory being much closer to the Trae/Fox/Cade “lead guard” bucket than the Clarkson/Lou/Jamal 6MOY archetype:


On the “he’s just an elite shooter” thing:

He’s not just a shooter; he’s an elite movement/pull up shooter, DHOs, off-screen, ghost actions, relocations and he creates his own threes on the move. That’s not your “stand in the corner and wait” 3&D kind of elite shooter.
Rim pressure jumped last year, better footwork, decel and touch led to a lot of high level finishes in tight spaces. Attempts at the rim climbed to ~20% (within 5 ft) with good efficiency for a guard
Playmaking improved, ~6 APG (after Jimmy was gone) isn’t empty stat padding. He beat doubles with skips, pocket passes and timing reads and he did it without some dream spacing ecosystem, as the guy defeses loaded up on facing the best team defenders

On the playoff/translatability piece:

Context matters. Miami came in as a 10 seed and drew the #1 Cavs. Of course Cleveland could load its whole defensive game plan onto Herro, there weren’t enough other threats. That doesn’t prove he can’t scale, just proves he can't carry a team on his own (which only MVP caliber guys can).
In a switching/help heavy scheme with another big wing next to him, he’s “targetable but survivable”, which is the norm for most high usage guards. He’s not some singular liability that breaks your whole defense, the idea you can’t scheme around him is just nonsense.

Let him run the offense for a full year. If it caps out and he doesn't show anything, fine, reassess. But calling him a 6MOY type now is reductive. The skill set (movement shooting + high level rim craft + live dribble passing) is the lead engine toolkit most teams spend an era trying to find. He may not put it all together, but there’s a very real chance he gets close

[3ammy3uck3ts]

Hows his defense?

Probably a lot like Tyler and Duncan’s unfortunately

Based on what? Your pessimism? Or him being white?

Whichever narrative you want to go with works for me!

[3ammy3uck3ts]

Spoiler:

I don’t think you realize how far Herro’s come what he did last year already put him beyond the peaks of the guys you mentioned.

His skill set fits the modern game perfectly. The real mistake is trying to pigeonhole him as just a “bench scorer/secondary playmaker”. The only way to find his ceiling is to let him run as the offensive engine and he already showed flashes that he's capable last year. If it doesn’t work, fine, you move on. But if it does, you’ve unlocked something most teams spend their whole rebuild chasing.

And funny enough, you won’t guess what Warriors fans used to say about Curry:

“His ankles are made of glass, trade him before he breaks again”
“Monta’s clearly the guy, Steph should be the sixth man”
“He’s just a flashy shooter, not someone you build around”

Not saying this is the same story but maybe show a little patience before writing off a 25y old who’s improved every single season

He’s definitely better than Clarkson ever was, Lou Will and Jamal I’m not sure because we never saw them as 1st options leading their teams in shot attempts and usage for 4 straight seasons, they played their proper role as high volume bench scoring spark plugs.

Herros an elite shooter so that’s definitely good for the modern NBA but will it ever translate when the games matter? Will he ever be a respectable defender to where teams can’t just hunt him nonstop? We have yet to see it and you and I have talked about this, that’s the next step. The regular season stuff is cool but ultimately if it never translates none of it matters.

He definitely hasn’t improved every season, his volume improved so his numbers jumped a little early on then he was pretty stagnant for a couple seasons, this last year though there was absolutely a noticeable improvement in his game. We’ll see if he can sustain it across multiple years.

You all have got to stop comparing him to Steph, we’re talking about a what top 10, 15, 20 player ever? Herro will never be that level. He’s not the shooter, not as good off ball, not near the handle or playmaking, and not even the defense. They’re both good shooters but they don’t compare.

The Curry bit, not a comp, just perspective:

People once said “glass ankles,” “sixth man,” “not a guy you build around.” The lesson isn’t “Herro = Steph”, it’s don’t freeze a 25y old in amber while he’s still learning the game

The evidence points to Tyler’s trajectory being much closer to the Trae/Fox/Cade “lead guard” bucket than the Clarkson/Lou/Jamal 6MOY archetype:


On the “he’s just an elite shooter” thing:

He’s not just a shooter; he’s an elite movement/pull up shooter, DHOs, off-screen, ghost actions, relocations and he creates his own threes on the move. That’s not your “stand in the corner and wait” 3&D kind of elite shooter.
Rim pressure jumped last year, better footwork, decel and touch led to a lot of high level finishes in tight spaces. Attempts at the rim climbed to ~20% (within 5 ft) with good efficiency for a guard
Playmaking improved, ~6 APG (after Jimmy was gone) isn’t empty stat padding. He beat doubles with skips, pocket passes and timing reads and he did it without some dream spacing ecosystem, as the guy defeses loaded up on facing the best team defenders

On the playoff/translatability piece:

Context matters. Miami came in as a 10 seed and drew the #1 Cavs. Of course Cleveland could load its whole defensive game plan onto Herro, there weren’t enough other threats. That doesn’t prove he can’t scale, just proves he can't carry a team on his own (which only MVP caliber guys can).
In a switching/help heavy scheme with another big wing next to him, he’s “targetable but survivable”, which is the norm for most high usage guards. He’s not some singular liability that breaks your whole defense, the idea you can’t scheme around him is just nonsense.

Let him run the offense for a full year. If it caps out and he doesn't show anything, fine, reassess. But calling him a 6MOY type now is reductive. The skill set (movement shooting + high level rim craft + live dribble passing) is the lead engine toolkit most teams spend an era trying to find. He may not put it all together, but there’s a very real chance he gets close

I didn’t say “just an elite shooter” in a sense that he’s just standing in the corner catching and shooting wide open looks.

Context definitely matters in every argument, we just pick and choose when we want to use it and who we want to use it for. Let’s say you’re right after the Cavs series, that doesn’t account for the rest of his career where he’s been a very poor performer.

He’s been running the offense though, he’s led the team in usage and shot attempts the last 4 seasons to the teams detriment; it’s why we improved every time he went down and we slotted in a specialist

I hope you guys are right about this and I hope he decides to play some defense at some point soon! How confident are you he can continue and build off of his play from last season AND stay healthy in the process?

[VaDe255]

Spoiler:

He’s definitely better than Clarkson ever was, Lou Will and Jamal I’m not sure because we never saw them as 1st options leading their teams in shot attempts and usage for 4 straight seasons, they played their proper role as high volume bench scoring spark plugs.

Herros an elite shooter so that’s definitely good for the modern NBA but will it ever translate when the games matter? Will he ever be a respectable defender to where teams can’t just hunt him nonstop? We have yet to see it and you and I have talked about this, that’s the next step. The regular season stuff is cool but ultimately if it never translates none of it matters.

He definitely hasn’t improved every season, his volume improved so his numbers jumped a little early on then he was pretty stagnant for a couple seasons, this last year though there was absolutely a noticeable improvement in his game. We’ll see if he can sustain it across multiple years.

You all have got to stop comparing him to Steph, we’re talking about a what top 10, 15, 20 player ever? Herro will never be that level. He’s not the shooter, not as good off ball, not near the handle or playmaking, and not even the defense. They’re both good shooters but they don’t compare.

The Curry bit, not a comp, just perspective:

People once said “glass ankles,” “sixth man,” “not a guy you build around.” The lesson isn’t “Herro = Steph”, it’s don’t freeze a 25y old in amber while he’s still learning the game

The evidence points to Tyler’s trajectory being much closer to the Trae/Fox/Cade “lead guard” bucket than the Clarkson/Lou/Jamal 6MOY archetype:


On the “he’s just an elite shooter” thing:

He’s not just a shooter; he’s an elite movement/pull up shooter, DHOs, off-screen, ghost actions, relocations and he creates his own threes on the move. That’s not your “stand in the corner and wait” 3&D kind of elite shooter.
Rim pressure jumped last year, better footwork, decel and touch led to a lot of high level finishes in tight spaces. Attempts at the rim climbed to ~20% (within 5 ft) with good efficiency for a guard
Playmaking improved, ~6 APG (after Jimmy was gone) isn’t empty stat padding. He beat doubles with skips, pocket passes and timing reads and he did it without some dream spacing ecosystem, as the guy defeses loaded up on facing the best team defenders

On the playoff/translatability piece:

Context matters. Miami came in as a 10 seed and drew the #1 Cavs. Of course Cleveland could load its whole defensive game plan onto Herro, there weren’t enough other threats. That doesn’t prove he can’t scale, just proves he can't carry a team on his own (which only MVP caliber guys can).
In a switching/help heavy scheme with another big wing next to him, he’s “targetable but survivable”, which is the norm for most high usage guards. He’s not some singular liability that breaks your whole defense, the idea you can’t scheme around him is just nonsense.

Let him run the offense for a full year. If it caps out and he doesn't show anything, fine, reassess. But calling him a 6MOY type now is reductive. The skill set (movement shooting + high level rim craft + live dribble passing) is the lead engine toolkit most teams spend an era trying to find. He may not put it all together, but there’s a very real chance he gets close

I didn’t say “just an elite shooter” in a sense that he’s just standing in the corner catching and shooting wide open looks.

Context definitely matters in every argument, we just pick and choose when we want to use it and who we want to use it for. Let’s say you’re right after the Cavs series, that doesn’t account for the rest of his career where he’s been a very poor performer.

He’s been running the offense though, he’s led the team in usage and shot attempts the last 4 seasons to the teams detriment; it’s why we improved every time he went down and we slotted in a specialist

I hope you guys are right about this and I hope he decides to play some defense at some point soon! How confident are you he can continue and build off of his play from last season AND stay healthy in the process?

That’s the million dollar question (and the one the Heat also have to answer in extension talks). I think there are a few realistic paths here:

The Optimistic Outcome (15%):
Another year where he sustains/improves on ~24/5/5 with ~60% TS. If he continues refining reads out of doubles, maintains rim pressure and keeps trending up in FT volume, then he cements himself in the Trae/Fox tier. Not MVP level, but a legit offensive engine you can build around

The Most Likely Outcome (65%):
Shooting percentages dip under more defensive scheming against him and his playmaking stagnates, but he still hovers around ~23/5/5 on ~58% TS. That outcome leaves him more of a “secondary creator/primary scorer” who looks best next to another offensive star, still valuable, just not the best case scenario

The Pessimistic Outcome (20%):
Injuries pile up and his shooting, rim attempts, playmaking and FT rate stagnate or declines. In that case he’s still a very good scorer, but one who doesn’t quite scale in May, stuck in the “elite role player” lane rather than engine territory and then there is a case to be made for him to come off the bench

Yes, there’s risk, but last season showed real growth. I’d say the floor is solid secondary playmaker and shot creator (which is the likely outcome) in a starting role and the ceiling is fringe All NBA guard who can be the offensive engine of a playoff team, which of course isn't easy to reach. Which side he ends up on depends on health and whether he keeps improving those reads and counters against various defensive schemes

[3ammy3uck3ts]

Read on Twitter

[3ammy3uck3ts]

Spoiler:

The Curry bit, not a comp, just perspective:

People once said “glass ankles,” “sixth man,” “not a guy you build around.” The lesson isn’t “Herro = Steph”, it’s don’t freeze a 25y old in amber while he’s still learning the game

The evidence points to Tyler’s trajectory being much closer to the Trae/Fox/Cade “lead guard” bucket than the Clarkson/Lou/Jamal 6MOY archetype:


On the “he’s just an elite shooter” thing:

He’s not just a shooter; he’s an elite movement/pull up shooter, DHOs, off-screen, ghost actions, relocations and he creates his own threes on the move. That’s not your “stand in the corner and wait” 3&D kind of elite shooter.
Rim pressure jumped last year, better footwork, decel and touch led to a lot of high level finishes in tight spaces. Attempts at the rim climbed to ~20% (within 5 ft) with good efficiency for a guard
Playmaking improved, ~6 APG (after Jimmy was gone) isn’t empty stat padding. He beat doubles with skips, pocket passes and timing reads and he did it without some dream spacing ecosystem, as the guy defeses loaded up on facing the best team defenders

On the playoff/translatability piece:

Context matters. Miami came in as a 10 seed and drew the #1 Cavs. Of course Cleveland could load its whole defensive game plan onto Herro, there weren’t enough other threats. That doesn’t prove he can’t scale, just proves he can't carry a team on his own (which only MVP caliber guys can).
In a switching/help heavy scheme with another big wing next to him, he’s “targetable but survivable”, which is the norm for most high usage guards. He’s not some singular liability that breaks your whole defense, the idea you can’t scheme around him is just nonsense.

Let him run the offense for a full year. If it caps out and he doesn't show anything, fine, reassess. But calling him a 6MOY type now is reductive. The skill set (movement shooting + high level rim craft + live dribble passing) is the lead engine toolkit most teams spend an era trying to find. He may not put it all together, but there’s a very real chance he gets close

I didn’t say “just an elite shooter” in a sense that he’s just standing in the corner catching and shooting wide open looks.

Context definitely matters in every argument, we just pick and choose when we want to use it and who we want to use it for. Let’s say you’re right after the Cavs series, that doesn’t account for the rest of his career where he’s been a very poor performer.

He’s been running the offense though, he’s led the team in usage and shot attempts the last 4 seasons to the teams detriment; it’s why we improved every time he went down and we slotted in a specialist

I hope you guys are right about this and I hope he decides to play some defense at some point soon! How confident are you he can continue and build off of his play from last season AND stay healthy in the process?

That’s the million dollar question (and the one the Heat also have to answer in extension talks). I think there are a few realistic paths here:

The Optimistic Outcome (15%):
Another year where he sustains/improves on ~24/5/5 with ~60% TS. If he continues refining reads out of doubles, maintains rim pressure and keeps trending up in FT volume, then he cements himself in the Trae/Fox tier. Not MVP level, but a legit offensive engine you can build around

The Most Likely Outcome (65%):
Shooting percentages dip under more defensive scheming against him and his playmaking stagnates, but he still hovers around ~23/5/5 on ~58% TS. That outcome leaves him more of a “secondary creator/primary scorer” who looks best next to another offensive star, still valuable, just not the best case scenario

The Pessimistic Outcome (20%):
Injuries pile up and his shooting, rim attempts, playmaking and FT rate stagnate or declines. In that case he’s still a very good scorer, but one who doesn’t quite scale in May, stuck in the “elite role player” lane rather than engine territory and then there is a case to be made for him to come off the bench

Yes, there’s risk, but last season showed real growth. I’d say the floor is solid secondary playmaker and shot creator (which is the likely outcome) in a starting role and the ceiling is fringe All NBA guard who can be the offensive engine of a playoff team, which of course isn't easy to reach. Which side he ends up on depends on health and whether he keeps improving those reads and counters against various defensive schemes

Definitely curious to see how it all plays out.

[eddieheatfan]

Read on Twitter

[HeatFanLifer]

Read on Twitter

Looks like he needs work creating his own play. Can nail the open shot like Strus so he def has NBA potential, but also need to see his defense and intangibles.

[Vertical Limit]

Read on Twitter

Looks like he needs work creating his own play. Can nail the open shot like Strus so he def has NBA potential, but also need to see his defense and intangibles.

No thank you. We have got to stop normalizing roleplayers creating their own shot. Theyre roleplayers for a reason. Stick to your god damn roles and get open without the ball.

[dolphinatik]

Why Powell and fontechio showing out in euro ball get different reactions? Our entire team is role players. Only real alpha is rozier and he has gremlins controlling him rn. Great time to trade Simone imo, I doubt we let him get his shots.

[SerialChiller]

Looks like he needs work creating his own play. Can nail the open shot like Strus so he def has NBA potential, but also need to see his defense and intangibles.

No thank you. We have got to stop normalizing roleplayers creating their own shot. Theyre roleplayers for a reason. Stick to your god damn roles and get open without the ball.

Yeah it seemed like as Duncan tried to expand his game his shooting became less and less reliable.