Warriors exploring S&T for Kuminga

[xdrta+]

This could have been signed months ago if gsw budged on the 2nd year team option OR waiving the NTC OR a fully non-guarnteed 2nd year. Any of those 3, if I am to believe slater, kawakami, etc., would have gotten it done.

I'm curious, why would a fully non-guaranteed 2nd year be more attractive than the team option he's being offered now. Seems like all it does is remove the implied NTC, which he seems to want.

[AirP.]

Why should he be in a hurry?

IMO, the most likely scenario is the FO gives a little bit on their current offer followed by him signing the QO.

GS waited this long and gave up the chance to make some changes to the roster with FA, why would GS go through all that and then up their offer (like no TO or making it a PO on 2nd year or add a 3rd year)? If Kuminga takes the QO, hand that money you didn't give Kuminga to GP2 and use him as an expiring contract (with him waiving his no trade on a 1+1).

I think this is a nightmare scenario, relatively speaking, and they'd be much better off guaranteeing that 2nd year than having JK on the QO and GP2 on 15M. The trade restrictions, lack of bird rights, etc make trading for JK almost pointless. His fit on this roster becomes even more tenuous and he becomes a completely wasted asset. I don't think anyone on this board thinks gsw is so good they can just punt on one of their last assets but the JK conversation has clearly gone way off the rails.

This could have been signed months ago if gsw budged on the 2nd year team option OR waiving the NTC OR a fully non-guarnteed 2nd year. Any of those 3, if I am to believe slater, kawakami, etc., would have gotten it done. My guess of 9/1 was clearly wrong and, at this point, I wouldn't be surprised if the team actually dared him into taking the QO. A (relative) disaster for both sides and a classic example of cutting off your nose to spite your face.

If you give Kumigna 2 years it's highly possible Kuminga will use most of that time in those 2 years to showcase his ability for his next team vs trying to play winning basketball. Worst case, he gets hurt and you can't even get a team to waive his medicals to trade him as an expiring contract.

If Kuminga wouldn't play a role last year when the team was trying to rise in the standings before his RFA, there's an even less chance he'll do it with a short 2-year 20+ million a year contract.

Once again, if GS sticks to the TO and Kuminga ends up taking it in this game of chicken, GS can move him as an expiring contract to bring in a better fit that another team may want to move off of their money.

Overall, GS needs to create a somewhat sizable tradable contract of a non core player for this next season so they have options on getting better by upgrading a weakness, having Kuminga on a TO gives the Warriors more options to possibly get the final piece to a championship run and this is what it's all about with Curry, Green and Kerr, it's why they paid Butler, they went all in and moving Kuminga one way or another for a better fitting piece for Curry is possibly the last needed move to strengthen this year's and quite possibly next year's team.

[vvoland]

GS waited this long and gave up the chance to make some changes to the roster with FA, why would GS go through all that and then up their offer (like no TO or making it a PO on 2nd year or add a 3rd year)? If Kuminga takes the QO, hand that money you didn't give Kuminga to GP2 and use him as an expiring contract (with him waiving his no trade on a 1+1).

I think this is a nightmare scenario, relatively speaking, and they'd be much better off guaranteeing that 2nd year than having JK on the QO and GP2 on 15M. The trade restrictions, lack of bird rights, etc make trading for JK almost pointless. His fit on this roster becomes even more tenuous and he becomes a completely wasted asset. I don't think anyone on this board thinks gsw is so good they can just punt on one of their last assets but the JK conversation has clearly gone way off the rails.

This could have been signed months ago if gsw budged on the 2nd year team option OR waiving the NTC OR a fully non-guarnteed 2nd year. Any of those 3, if I am to believe slater, kawakami, etc., would have gotten it done. My guess of 9/1 was clearly wrong and, at this point, I wouldn't be surprised if the team actually dared him into taking the QO. A (relative) disaster for both sides and a classic example of cutting off your nose to spite your face.

If you give Kumigna 2 years it's highly possible Kuminga will use most of that time in those 2 years to showcase his ability for his next team vs trying to play winning basketball. Worst case, he gets hurt and you can't even get a team to waive his medicals to trade him as an expiring contract.

If Kuminga wouldn't play a role last year when the team was trying to rise in the standings before his RFA, there's an even less chance he'll do it with a short 2-year 20+ million a year contract.

Once again, if GS sticks to the TO and Kuminga ends up taking it in this game of chicken, GS can move him as an expiring contract to bring in a better fit that another team may want to move off of their money.

Overall, GS needs to create a somewhat sizable tradable contract of a non core player for this next season so they have options on getting better by upgrading a weakness, having Kuminga on a TO gives the Warriors more options to possibly get the final piece to a championship run and this is what it's all about with Curry, Green and Kerr, it's why they paid Butler, they went all in and moving Kuminga one way or another for a better fitting piece for Curry is possibly the last needed move to strengthen this year's and quite possibly next year's team.

If the 'ceiling' of this scenario is moving JK as an expiring, I don't find that to be a rational take. Yes, JK can get hurt but, even at that point, you'd want the 2nd year so he can recover while you still have his rights. No one would trade for an injured JK on a 1 year deal w/ no bird rights except as JUST as matching/expiring salary. He'd have to have a pretty rough start to the year before getting hurt to tank his value below what PHX and Sac are currently 'offering' (3-4 years in the low 20s).

But let's say you're right and he only cares about his numbers, showcasing his scoring ability, and improving his game for the next team. GREAT, we move him in Feb, when the BYC restrictions fall off, we're not hard capped at the 1st, more teams are involved, his stock is up (in this scenario), and we get something better than malik monk and a non-lottery 1st for JK AND moody (or buddy). He doesn't even have to play that well for him to be more valuable in Feb than he is now, considering this is, likely, his nadir.

There is, however, the other possibility, that unlike the 12 games you saw after the JB trade where JK played, he actually contributes to winning to start the 25-26 season. It has happened before, albeit before JB got here. IF he does that, his value to this convalescence facility will be dramatically different from what people are currently discussing. It seems like to you and most of the posters here, there are 2 possibilities to the JK extension. He plays just well enough for some idiot team to trade for him or he doesn't and we're stuck with some albatross of a contract and we'll be thrilled to decline that 2nd year option. I think those are the worst case scenarios with a handful of better, some much better, options also available.

Sure, having JK on a TO is better than a PO. I don't think it's THAT much better than having him on a standard 2 year deal. Particularly, if they got it done early, finished up the rest of their business and got on with their summer. I mean, how poorly does he need to play for the dubs to:

a. not be able to trade him in feb for the sac or phx offers BUT w/o having to move Buddy or MM
AND
b. not pick up the option next summer, if only to keep the salary slot.

[Larry Ellison]

LOL, or maybe he is letting them know the QO is more enticing than the current offer from GS, which sucks, and that he hopes this will get the FO to accept a S&T before he signs the QO.

Surely the 3rd month of letting them know the QO is more enticing will make GS change their offer even though it hasn't changed in 2 months. There's no S&T option right now that is even remotely interesting.

Why should he be in a hurry?

IMO, the most likely scenario is the FO gives a little bit on their current offer followed by him signing the QO.

Maybe. I just think it is far more likely that GSW does not improve its offer. Why would it? JK is bluffing. It would be crazy for him to take the QO and give up $14M in salary for the 2025-2026 season.

[whatisacenter]

Surely the 3rd month of letting them know the QO is more enticing will make GS change their offer even though it hasn't changed in 2 months. There's no S&T option right now that is even remotely interesting.

Why should he be in a hurry?

IMO, the most likely scenario is the FO gives a little bit on their current offer followed by him signing the QO.

Maybe. I just think it is far more likely that GSW does not improve its offer. Why would it? JK is bluffing. It would be crazy for him to take the QO and give up $14M in salary for the 2025-2026 season.

Why would GS improve their offer? To have a tradeable contract

[Larry Ellison]

Why should he be in a hurry?

IMO, the most likely scenario is the FO gives a little bit on their current offer followed by him signing the QO.

Maybe. I just think it is far more likely that GSW does not improve its offer. Why would it? JK is bluffing. It would be crazy for him to take the QO and give up $14M in salary for the 2025-2026 season.

Why would GS improve their offer? To have a tradeable contract

The improvements JK seeks would make the contract less tradable. The FO is playing hardball with him, no doubt about it. If JK capitulates, that would be the best case scenario for the team. I can't rule out that he will take the QO. Ben Gordon did the same thing many years ago. GSW strategy reads like the team doesn't value JK as anything other than a trade asset. I think JK is correct about that and I understand why he is offended. But giving up $14M would not be a good decision. He wants to choose his destination. Warriors offer prevents him from doing that. The team wants to maximize its return. It's all very disappointing and another blown draft pick for GSW. We should have taken Franz instead.

[Onus]

Why should he be in a hurry?

IMO, the most likely scenario is the FO gives a little bit on their current offer followed by him signing the QO.

Maybe. I just think it is far more likely that GSW does not improve its offer. Why would it? JK is bluffing. It would be crazy for him to take the QO and give up $14M in salary for the 2025-2026 season.

Why would GS improve their offer? To have a tradeable contract

JK's team canvassed the entire league and the best they came up with was 2 2nds for JK on a long term deal. That's basically what you get for an expiring deal. So JK on an expiring deal gets more suitors for the same value as JK on a long term deal in which only 1 team was willing to give up that value. So improving our offer would not make JK a more tradeable contract.

If they want a larger salary slot they can just pay GP2 more on a 1 year deal. Hell if they really want to they can only guarantee a certain amount of it after a certain date of it so that he can be cut after he gets traded as well which would be an even better trade asset than an expiring contract.

JK taking the QO isn't terrible, tbh it might be an even better option for us than him signing the 1+1 at this point. The only benefit for the 1+1 is that it's a larger salary slot. That is the only leverage JK has currently, a larger salary slot, and that's not enticing enough to improve our offer.

[Crazy-Canuck]

Cam Thomas just signed the qo offer 6M.

The first domino has fallen.

[Onus]

Cam Thomas just signed the qo offer 6M.

The first domino has fallen.

They were probably the furthest apart contract wise. Cam wanting Tyler Herro money and BKN offering MLE money. Still 14M vs 6M this year and being a free agent next year when there's not going to be a lot of money. Plus BKN drafting 5 guards. On a team that is looking to rebuild and has no incentive to try to win, when teams are looking for more winning traits like defensive focus. He's not going to make up that 8M. He'd have to make 22M next year for him to come out even, which I don't see a team offering. Teams are really devaluing scoring only options.

[statsman]

Cam Thomas just signed the qo offer 6M.

The first domino has fallen.

This one was expected, but at this rate, all four of the primary RFAs may go that route. Which means they would all be competing against each other and the other free agents next offseason. How many teams are expected to have free agent cap space in 2026?

[vvoland]

This could have been signed months ago if gsw budged on the 2nd year team option OR waiving the NTC OR a fully non-guarnteed 2nd year. Any of those 3, if I am to believe slater, kawakami, etc., would have gotten it done.

I'm curious, why would a fully non-guaranteed 2nd year be more attractive than the team option he's being offered now. Seems like all it does is remove the implied NTC, which he seems to want.

I'm also a bit confused by that reporting but a guaranteed $50M can be fairly persuasive. Some security plus unrestricted free agency before he turns 25, after making ~75M in his first 6 seasons, doesn't sound like bad work.

He seems to be mostly bothered by being such an obvious trade chip with only a 1 year guaranteed deal. If I'm to read into the reporting just a little, that is.

[vvoland]

Maybe. I just think it is far more likely that GSW does not improve its offer. Why would it? JK is bluffing. It would be crazy for him to take the QO and give up $14M in salary for the 2025-2026 season.

Why would GS improve their offer? To have a tradeable contract

JK's team canvassed the entire league and the best they came up with was 2 2nds for JK on a long term deal. That's basically what you get for an expiring deal. So JK on an expiring deal gets more suitors for the same value as JK on a long term deal in which only 1 team was willing to give up that value. So improving our offer would not make JK a more tradeable contract.

If they want a larger salary slot they can just pay GP2 more on a 1 year deal. Hell if they really want to they can only guarantee a certain amount of it after a certain date of it so that he can be cut after he gets traded as well which would be an even better trade asset than an expiring contract.

JK taking the QO isn't terrible, tbh it might be an even better option for us than him signing the 1+1 at this point. The only benefit for the 1+1 is that it's a larger salary slot. That is the only leverage JK has currently, a larger salary slot, and that's not enticing enough to improve our offer.

This was the worst market in recent memory for FAs, particularly RFAs. How bad do you think JK needs to play for the dubs to not get a better offer when the BYC issues fade? Just being hard capped at the 1st apron probably eliminated 20 teams this summer. The additional salary issues likely dissuaded a few others. I would imagine our offers would be much improved by Feb, assuming JK isn't getting DNP-CDs.

I don't know why you'd want to give a large salary to gp2, a guy you said you didn't want back on this team earlier this summer. Now you want to pay him 15M in the hopes someone would like him as an expiring deal? Not so sure.

[whatisacenter]

Maybe. I just think it is far more likely that GSW does not improve its offer. Why would it? JK is bluffing. It would be crazy for him to take the QO and give up $14M in salary for the 2025-2026 season.

Why would GS improve their offer? To have a tradeable contract

JK's team canvassed the entire league and the best they came up with was 2 2nds for JK on a long term deal. That's basically what you get for an expiring deal. So JK on an expiring deal gets more suitors for the same value as JK on a long term deal in which only 1 team was willing to give up that value. So improving our offer would not make JK a more tradeable contract.

If they want a larger salary slot they can just pay GP2 more on a 1 year deal. Hell if they really want to they can only guarantee a certain amount of it after a certain date of it so that he can be cut after he gets traded as well which would be an even better trade asset than an expiring contract.

JK taking the QO isn't terrible, tbh it might be an even better option for us than him signing the 1+1 at this point. The only benefit for the 1+1 is that it's a larger salary slot. That is the only leverage JK has currently, a larger salary slot, and that's not enticing enough to improve our offer.

So you are just going to ignore the BYC rules that would not be factored in if they traded him at the deadline?

[xdrta+]

This could have been signed months ago if gsw budged on the 2nd year team option OR waiving the NTC OR a fully non-guarnteed 2nd year. Any of those 3, if I am to believe slater, kawakami, etc., would have gotten it done.

I'm curious, why would a fully non-guaranteed 2nd year be more attractive than the team option he's being offered now. Seems like all it does is remove the implied NTC, which he seems to want.

I'm also a bit confused by that reporting but a guaranteed $50M can be fairly persuasive. Some security plus unrestricted free agency before he turns 25, after making ~75M in his first 6 seasons, doesn't sound like bad work.

He seems to be mostly bothered by being such an obvious trade chip with only a 1 year guaranteed deal. If I'm to read into the reporting just a little, that is.

Confusing indeed.
"non-guaranteed 2nd year"

[AirP.]

If the 'ceiling' of this scenario is moving JK as an expiring, I don't find that to be a rational take. Yes, JK can get hurt but, even at that point, you'd want the 2nd year so he can recover while you still have his rights. No one would trade for an injured JK on a 1 year deal w/ no bird rights except as JUST as matching/expiring salary. He'd have to have a pretty rough start to the year before getting hurt to tank his value below what PHX and Sac are currently 'offering' (3-4 years in the low 20s).

If you have a ~22 million dollar expiring you have access to players from teams that have decided it's time to scrap this build and move in a different direction vs wanting to trade for Kuminga as a talent. It gives GS more options to have a better pool to pick from to strengthen the team with Curry as their best player. Maybe a team doesn't want Kuminga and his salary, they just want to move player X making ~20 mil and possibly get an asset too? For instance, Tatum has issues coming back and Boston decides to move D.White but doesn't want Kuminga's contract past this year.

But let's say you're right and he only cares about his numbers, showcasing his scoring ability, and improving his game for the next team. GREAT, we move him in Feb, when the BYC restrictions fall off, we're not hard capped at the 1st, more teams are involved, his stock is up (in this scenario), and we get something better than malik monk and a non-lottery 1st for JK AND moody (or buddy). He doesn't even have to play that well for him to be more valuable in Feb than he is now, considering this is, likely, his nadir.

Showcasing his scoring talents is also probably playing outside the offense, ignoring getting the ball to Curry or at a lesser extent Butler and with that, he may end up costing GS some valuable wins and probably getting benched since GS wants to be higher in the standings this year vs let Kuminga showcase his talents and possibly lose more games. So he could cost GS wins and quite possibly not get the reps in with the type of offensive/defensive team they need to try to win a championship which this is all about with Curry.

There is, however, the other possibility, that unlike the 12 games you saw after the JB trade where JK played, he actually contributes to winning to start the 25-26 season. It has happened before, albeit before JB got here. IF he does that, his value to this convalescence facility will be dramatically different from what people are currently discussing. It seems like to you and most of the posters here, there are 2 possibilities to the JK extension. He plays just well enough for some idiot team to trade for him or he doesn't and we're stuck with some albatross of a contract and we'll be thrilled to decline that 2nd year option. I think those are the worst case scenarios with a handful of better, some much better, options also available.

I have no problem believing Kuminga can contribute to winning if he plays the right way on this roster at this time, he could have done that last year but his mind was on scoring vs helping the team win.

Sure, having JK on a TO is better than a PO. I don't think it's THAT much better than having him on a standard 2 year deal. Particularly, if they got it done early, finished up the rest of their business and got on with their summer. I mean, how poorly does he need to play for the dubs to:

a. not be able to trade him in feb for the sac or phx offers BUT w/o having to move Buddy or MM
AND
b. not pick up the option next summer, if only to keep the salary slot.

The complete difference between a TO and a standard 2-year deal is that you open the door to teams wanting to just dump a multi-year salary now and a player with a TO allows them to do that. Say Tatum has complications, Boston may decide to cash out on Derrick White who makes around ~20 million, a player like that could increase GS's chances at the Finals which this is what it's all about. Maybe Norm Powell is on the block because Miami isn't willing to extend him where a 1st and expiring contract around ~20 million can basically rent him (unless the new team gives him a small extension). There are more possibilities of moving Kuminga if he can also be looked at as an expiring contract. One injury in Boston made them sell off players, someone else could end up in that situation again (including GS and they decide to go all in on trying to develop Kuminga, possibly declining the TO and give him a much larger contract if they're truly ready to go in a different direction).

If GS gives Kuminga a 2-year deal with no TO, trading as an expiring contract is out the window and that could be enough to stop GS from acquiring the right type of player in that 20 million price range to increase their odds of winning a championship which is what this current era in GS is all about since acquiring Butler. When they acquired Butler, I think Kuminga had a small window after coming back from injury to either show he's all in with winning, finding a role to help the team win vs showcase himself as a top option and he went with the top option role. Kuminga shot bad (44% FG%, 17% 3pt$) when he came back and he still put up nearly 17 FGA per36, that wasn't good for a team needing to optimize as much as they could to climb in the ratings. The right move, especially when coming back was to find a role and play it vs being a bad volume shooter, know your situation.

[statsman]

I don't understand Lacob here. He loves the kid. Make it 2/45, all guaranteed. No team or player option. Do they really have a big name trade lined up this season? Kuminga can screw that up by taking the qualifying offer. And, yeah, the "filler" contract offer to GP2 would be another of the hair-brain ideas from Lacob.

[AirP.]

I don't understand Lacob here. He loves the kid. Make it 2/45, all guaranteed. No team or player option. Do they really have a big name trade lined up this season? Kuminga can screw that up by taking the qualifying offer. And, yeah, the "filler" contract offer to GP2 would be another of the hair-brain ideas from Lacob.

GS would lose options in the trade market if a team can't also look at him as an expiring contract if that's what they want.

[vvoland]

I'm curious, why would a fully non-guaranteed 2nd year be more attractive than the team option he's being offered now. Seems like all it does is remove the implied NTC, which he seems to want.

I'm also a bit confused by that reporting but a guaranteed $50M can be fairly persuasive. Some security plus unrestricted free agency before he turns 25, after making ~75M in his first 6 seasons, doesn't sound like bad work.

He seems to be mostly bothered by being such an obvious trade chip with only a 1 year guaranteed deal. If I'm to read into the reporting just a little, that is.

Confusing indeed.
"non-guaranteed 2nd year"

My bad. I wasn't clear. I meant the warriors can fully guarantee year 2 (thus removing the NTC) or have the TO but let him keep the NTC and it would have been done.

[vvoland]

I don't understand Lacob here. He loves the kid. Make it 2/45, all guaranteed. No team or player option. Do they really have a big name trade lined up this season? Kuminga can screw that up by taking the qualifying offer. And, yeah, the "filler" contract offer to GP2 would be another of the hair-brain ideas from Lacob.

GS would lose options in the trade market if a team can't also look at him as an expiring contract if that's what they want.

Yes, as i've said before, anyone trading for him as an expiring is giving us garbage in return. The only way to get a real player back is if a team values JK enough to give that up. If they don't, it's all moot. If they do, however, having him on 2 years is likely much better than 1.

Again, let me ask you, how poorly does he need to play for that team option to come into play. Barring a catastrophic (2 year recovery or more) injury, what is a realistic scenario where, in 12 months, he's a UFA because we, or a team that TRADED for him, don't pick up a ~23M option for 1 season?

[AirP.]

Restricted free agent Cam Thomas is signing a one-year, $6 million qualifying offer to return to the Brooklyn Nets, sources tell ESPN. Sides were unable to reach a new deal so the QO gives Thomas a full no-trade clause and 2026 unrestricted free agency with 10+ cap space teams.

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Seems Brooklyn wants that cap space to keep bringing in bad contracts with assets attached to them. Makes sense for Cam since they weren't offering much more than his QO for the 1st year.

Spoiler:

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