OT: Hows everyone feeling about Drake these days?

[tsherkin]

I can’t guarantee you will like it, as disliking the sound of his voice isn’t something you can do much about, but go all the way back to So Far Gone and/or Comeback Season if you can.

I will try that. Maybe it will give me a better sense of his stuff. There's a non-trivial chance that how much I specifically dislike "Started from the Bottom" is influencing my view of his overall catalog, because I surely haven't listened that broadly.

Lol this is such a nonsensical and ignorant comment.

No it isn't.

Music is subjective, and the fact of the matter is, he's been the most streamed artist for over a decade and has by far the largest fanbase.

Popularity and musicality aren't well-correlated. And that's not new. Lots of popular music has been fairly unimpressive. Punk rock in the 70s, grunge in the 90s. Again, not all of it, but you don't have to be a spectacular musician to be popular.

You don't get these accolades from not making quality music.

Again, there's a difference between popular and quality, which is something I touched on earlier. He's not a good singer. That's nothing revelatory. He isn't as bad a singer as, for example, me, obviously, but he's nothing special. There are dozens and dozens of current artists who are far better singers, and it's not like he's crushing it on other instruments. So the popularity of his stuff has to come from somewhere else. And that's fine, people like what they like. Plenty of the stuff I enjoy isn't very good either, just in different genres. But from a musicianship standard, he isn't impressive to me at all. I'm going to do as CPT suggested and try listening back a little to see if there's more stuff in his catalog which I haven't had the chance to appreciate yet.

But let's not throw around pejorative nonsense because we disagree on the subject of the quality of Drake's music.

[Mikistan]

I can’t guarantee you will like it, as disliking the sound of his voice isn’t something you can do much about, but go all the way back to So Far Gone and/or Comeback Season if you can.

I will try that. Maybe it will give me a better sense of his stuff. There's a non-trivial chance that how much I specifically dislike "Started from the Bottom" is influencing my view of his overall catalog, because I surely haven't listened that broadly.

Lol this is such a nonsensical and ignorant comment.

No it isn't.

Music is subjective, and the fact of the matter is, he's been the most streamed artist for over a decade and has by far the largest fanbase.

Popularity and musicality aren't well-correlated. And that's not new. Lots of popular music has been fairly unimpressive. Punk rock in the 70s, grunge in the 90s. Again, not all of it, but you don't have to be a spectacular musician to be popular.

You don't get these accolades from not making quality music.

Again, there's a difference between popular and quality, which is something I touched on earlier. He's not a good singer. That's nothing revelatory. He isn't as bad a singer as, for example, me, obviously, but he's nothing special. There are dozens and dozens of current artists who are far better singers, and it's not like he's crushing it on other instruments. So the popularity of his stuff has to come from somewhere else. And that's fine, people like what they like. Plenty of the stuff I enjoy isn't very good either, just in different genres. But from a musicianship standard, he isn't impressive to me at all. I'm going to do as CPT suggested and try listening back a little to see if there's more stuff in his catalog which I haven't had the chance to appreciate yet.

But let's not throw around pejorative nonsense because we disagree on the subject of the quality of Drake's music.

I didn't read the whole thread but I hope you give some credit to more than just voice or instruments, especially if he's involved in production, the layering, orchestration, tempo changes, lyrical performance, lyricism and imagery and that's before getting to live performance art, putting on a spectacle, crowd engagement, novel ideas and crowd work.

I'm no drake expert specifically, but I just noted a theme of talking about his voice in your post that, like, he isn't pitched as a singer, people aren't streaming his music for his voice like say Adelle or the three tenors?

[tecumseh18]

Hard for me to judge. I just prefer the beats and flow of early 90s hip-hop. Tribe and Digital Underground were my jams. More recently - Pete and Bas (lol).

My teenage son likes Travis Scott and various London guys - e.g. Dave. And Kendrick and Ye (especially his shoes, some Croc-like things). But Drake was always his #1 guy growing up. And Drake definitely has a lot of songs that I don't turn off when they come on the radio. He's the Taylor Swift of hip hop - with all the positive and negative connotations that go with that.

[Freeman6]

Still the goat.

People have internalized the beef so much its sick to watch. Who gives a **** about "the culture"? No other genre gets enthralled with beef and who's a snitch blah blah blah. You either like the music or you don't.

[Clay Davis]

Lol this is such a nonsensical and ignorant comment.

Music is subjective, and the fact of the matter is, he's been the most streamed artist for over a decade and has by far the largest fanbase.

His music has shattered numerous records and he's often regarded as one of the greatest to ever do it.

Most diamond certifications, tied for most #1s with MJ, most streamed artist on spotify globally, etc.

You don't get these accolades from not making quality music.

Why not? That's like saying Labubu's are high quality toys because they're very popular. People like crowds and following them: they'll follow something just because it's popular. This is like saying Taylor Swift is a better musical talent than J.S. Bach because more people listen to any of her major hits in a month than the Chaconne. I do not think POPULARITY necessarily indicates MUSICAL RIZZ.

Terrible analogy.
Labubu is today’s hot trend that is here today and will be gone tomorrow. Just like fidget spinners, Pokémon GO, etc.

Drake’s music is timeless and tends to age well.
The fact that his music from 14 years ago continues to chart speaks volumes. His longevity and success cannot be denied.

Read on Twitter

?s=46&t=PSy3Ch7pvG4ybe2MpvWFcw


Funny thing is I wasn’t a big Drake fan until maybe 4-5 years ago. I realized his music grows on you overtime and you get addicted to it. He has made hits with several different sounds which showcases his versatility and musical talent.


I’m not here to argue that he’s the greatest musical talent there is. There are several hip hop artists I would argue are more talented than him. But that doesn’t mean he doesn’t make quality music and isn’t in a league of his own as well.

Well ya pop music tends to be catchy since it meets some minimal criteria of listenability. Olivia Newton John made some catchy music. So did Madonna. So did Michael Jackson (one of the few all-time talented musicians whose fame was commensurate with his ability). So did Carly Rae Jepsen. I think Call Me Maybe is more catchy than anything Drake has ever written, personally. That **** still bops.

Ok so if Labubu's were popular over 5 years you'd just be like "hey you know what? Maybe I was wrong about this whole Labubu thing. **** man, Labubu's are the ****. I wish I didn't have a Labubu 5 years ago but I should definitely own a minimum of eight now"? No, if they're viral crappy trends now, them extending over a period of time just means that they're viral crappy trends with longevity.

A lot of music you listen to can be very catchy because it's formulaic. It's like porn/McDonalds. McDonalds will provide a hit of dopamine that a $300 wagyu doesn't, but does that mean that McDonalds is better? Should we argue that McDonalds is better than any great restaurant because of how many franchises there are? No, it's crappy food meant to satisfy the crappy parts of our palette. It's the same with Drake. Drakes great if all you want to do is turn your brain off. McDonalds is great if you're drunk. If you think McDonalds is the best food ever you should probably upgrade your palette. Is that elitist? I don't know, is having standards elitist? Is knowing what making music involves elitist? Up to you.

If you want to talk about longevity, look no further than Drake's uncle, Larry Graham, the bassist from Sly and the Family Stone. Larry Graham literally invented an entire different way of playing an instrument that changed the face of music over 50 years, and that'll resonate as long as people are playing the electric bass guitar. That's longevity. The true rizz... of the great bassist... Larry Graham....

Watch on YouTube

Larry Graham...

Watch on YouTube

Larry Graham...

Watch on YouTube

[Tha Cynic]

Has he?

He's definitely been successful, but success and quality of music do not always go together and there isn't anything especially incredible about his work. I understand that virtuosity isn't a focus in genre, but like, he really isn't a good singer and his work doesn't stand out at all relative to his peers.

Lol this is such a nonsensical and ignorant comment.

Music is subjective, and the fact of the matter is, he's been the most streamed artist for over a decade and has by far the largest fanbase.

His music has shattered numerous records and he's often regarded as one of the greatest to ever do it.

Most diamond certifications, tied for most #1s with MJ, most streamed artist on spotify globally, etc.

You don't get these accolades from not making quality music.

Why not? That's like saying Labubu's are high quality toys because they're very popular. People like crowds and following them: they'll follow something just because it's popular. This is like saying Taylor Swift is a better musical talent than J.S. Bach because more people listen to any of her major hits in a month than the Chaconne. I do not think POPULARITY necessarily indicates MUSICAL RIZZ.

I can see a person buying a toy because they want to say they have it for the hype. I can’t see someone forcing themselves to listen to music they don’t like on a regular basis to fit into some hype. If he’s being streamed, it’s because people actually like his music.

[Clay Davis]

Lol this is such a nonsensical and ignorant comment.

Music is subjective, and the fact of the matter is, he's been the most streamed artist for over a decade and has by far the largest fanbase.

His music has shattered numerous records and he's often regarded as one of the greatest to ever do it.

Most diamond certifications, tied for most #1s with MJ, most streamed artist on spotify globally, etc.

You don't get these accolades from not making quality music.

Why not? That's like saying Labubu's are high quality toys because they're very popular. People like crowds and following them: they'll follow something just because it's popular. This is like saying Taylor Swift is a better musical talent than J.S. Bach because more people listen to any of her major hits in a month than the Chaconne. I do not think POPULARITY necessarily indicates MUSICAL RIZZ.

I can see a person buying a toy because they want to say they have it for the hype. I can’t see someone forcing themselves to listen to music they don’t like on a regular basis to fit into some hype. If he’s being streamed, it’s because people actually like his music.

People listen to music to fit in too. They want to have the shared experience of listening to it. It doesn't indicate high musical rizz on the part of the musician, but rather that the mechanisms of celebrity are enough to stratify their position in people's listening habits. Just like not everyone knows about TS%, or bpm, or dbpm, or PER, not everyone knows how to listen to music. A lot of people thought that Lou Williams was a better point guard in 2020 than Kyle Lowry. There's different amounts of rizz that people have in their investment in a medium. It's very easy to play music without necessarily listening to it closely.

[tsherkin]

I'm no drake expert specifically, but I just noted a theme of talking about his voice in your post that, like, he isn't pitched as a singer, people aren't streaming his music for his voice like say Adelle or the three tenors?

The voice portion is just something which stands out to me when we started specifically talking about him as a musician. As an entertainer, the conversation has to change because the criteria involved are very different, obviously.

[SFour]

Drake is fine when he doesn't try to act like a tough guy or gangster....imagine the Weeknd acting like that, it just comes off as corny.

[bluerap23]

He should rebrand as The Drake

Watch on YouTube

[mowcrowbar]

Kendrick turned him into a streamer.

[TimeForChange]

the divide will grow even larger tomorrow night.

i can't wait.

[lolwut]

Why not? That's like saying Labubu's are high quality toys because they're very popular. People like crowds and following them: they'll follow something just because it's popular. This is like saying Taylor Swift is a better musical talent than J.S. Bach because more people listen to any of her major hits in a month than the Chaconne. I do not think POPULARITY necessarily indicates MUSICAL RIZZ.

I can see a person buying a toy because they want to say they have it for the hype. I can’t see someone forcing themselves to listen to music they don’t like on a regular basis to fit into some hype. If he’s being streamed, it’s because people actually like his music.

People listen to music to fit in too. They want to have the shared experience of listening to it. It doesn't indicate high musical rizz on the part of the musician, but rather that the mechanisms of celebrity are enough to stratify their position in people's listening habits. Just like not everyone knows about TS%, or bpm, or dbpm, or PER, not everyone knows how to listen to music. A lot of people thought that Lou Williams was a better point guard in 2020 than Kyle Lowry. There's different amounts of rizz that people have in their investment in a medium. It's very easy to play music without necessarily listening to it closely.

Big label promotion plays a big part too. Look at the world of Kpop. How much of BTS's success is organic and how much of it was manufactured stardom by their agency? Is there really a discernible quality difference between BTS and the hundreds of other competing groups?

It's very easy to manipulate people to like things.
Does Coke really taste better than Pepsi? or is that just what you grew up drinking and got accustomed to?

[CPT]

Big label promotion plays a big part too. Look at the world of Kpop. How much of BTS's success is organic and how much of it was manufactured stardom by their agency? Is there really a discernible quality difference between BTS and the hundreds of other competing groups?

It's very easy to manipulate people to like things.
Does Coke really taste better than Pepsi? or is that just what you grew up drinking and got accustomed to?

While I do think there’s a lot of truth to this, BTS (and most K-pop, to some extent) aren’t really the best example.

BTS came from a relatively minor label and are more or less the reason that label is now successful (and can now use clout to promote artists or keep the BTS train running).

I’d listen to the argument that popularity within K-pop comes down to marketing, but I don’t know how much of its global success can be attributed to brute force promotion.

[YogurtProducer]

Like it or not, he made great music for a long time.

Has he?

He's definitely been successful, but success and quality of music do not always go together and there isn't anything especially incredible about his work. I understand that virtuosity isn't a focus in genre, but like, he really isn't a good singer and his work doesn't stand out at all relative to his peers.

Lol this is such a nonsensical and ignorant comment.

Music is subjective, and the fact of the matter is, he's been the most streamed artist for over a decade and has by far the largest fanbase.

His music has shattered numerous records and he's often regarded as one of the greatest to ever do it.

Most diamond certifications, tied for most #1s with MJ, most streamed artist on spotify globally, etc.

You don't get these accolades from not making quality music.

I get what you are trying to say, but popularity does not necessarily equal quality. Best selling movies, books, music, etc. anything typically is not anywhere near what anyone would call the "best" of a particular craft/genre. and Drake really is no exception here.

Streams especially is flawed. If I am out with friends, 100% I would rather hear Started from the Bottom than say, Sing About Me Im Dying Of Thirst, but 1 of these is objectively just a much, much, much better song.

Music that is radio / party / whatever friendly is going to always dominate streams. It doesn't make it better.

[YogurtProducer]

Even when I liked Drake a lot more, I always thought he was a cornball who made some good songs.

He’s cranked the cornball knob way up and the good songs knob way down.

I think he miscalculated the beef, in that usually a high profile beef will kind of just be a financial win even if you lose, but the way he lost seems to actually have cost him money. A lawsuit is about the weakest thing I can imagine, but it’s not out of character. His fans will probably double down and support it. It might even just be another move to grab attention. Our society is very stupid and rewards dumb things, so it could even be the right move.

Well...... if you're using bots to drag your numbers up, you've blatantly cheated in a rap battle and deserve to be called out for it.

Drake has every right to sue. Kendrick's numbers have fallen off a cliff. Spotify has actively been removing bots from their platform since this issue was brought to light by Drake a few months ago.

Read on Twitter

You mean the Super Bowl half-time artist who recently released an album saw an uptick in Feb which then came back down to historical averages..? Crazy...

[tsherkin]

I can’t guarantee you will like it, as disliking the sound of his voice isn’t something you can do much about, but go all the way back to So Far Gone and/or Comeback Season if you can.

So I tried this. Listened to some songs from So Far Gone. No easier to appreciate his singing, which even he admits isn't that impressive. I personally don't focus much on lyrics, so that's an angle I have difficulty appreciating. A lot of it doesn't feel that impressive, but I guess it comes off as relatable and that matters in a lyric-driven genre, for sure. It's a bit challenging for me to appreciate his broader sense as a musician because I don't know how much of the actual music he writes. It's been said repeatedly that he can't really hold a rhythm and it's not like he's an instrumentalist... but with Logic or Ableton or whatever DAW, he could easily be laying down the basic sounds before firing it off to producers. I know he has producers who send him stuff to see if he can work with it and he can write lyrics around that, but it's this weird contemporary space with that style of music as compared to earlier genres where you know who's doing what, right?

Musically, it is what it is. The layering doesn't feel that remarkable to me. The rhythms are basic, none of the instrumentation is especially compelling, though that isn't really a focus of the genre, to be fair, which is part of my challenge with it. Like, Best I Ever Had has nearly 800 million plays on Spotify, and I couldn't tell you why.

Eh. It is what it is. Not my jam, but clearly something loads of people like. Perhaps I'm stuck in a traditionalist mentality because he doesn't play an instrument and because his overt contribution is mediocre singing and lyrics which don't sound that remarkable to me.

Maybe that's the nice way of saying I'm just old now, lol. Feel a bit like my dad, yelling about something being "just noise."

For me, though, it's a little weird. There's a bunch of rap and house, R+B and various EDM stuff which I do like, so it isn't only genre-related. I can appreciate that sometimes the stuff which hits is more emotional than about the depth of ability required to perform. Hell, I enjoy a bunch of old Nickelback, and none of that was especially remarkable on a musical level either. xD

But damn, Drake's done well for himself, and that at least is quite impressive. Not necessarily from the perspective of musical quality, but he definitely found something which works and seems to reach people.

[Merit]

Isn’t he suing the record company he joined rather than Kendrick and this is right after he signed with them? His issue is the record company promoting a track that portrays him as a pedophile which seems like a legit reason to sue?

I guess it’s kind of iffy since both he and Kendrick are part of the same record label, but they also used bots? Why would you as a company promote something that goes at the most popular rapper out there right after you signed them? There had to be an ulterior motive at play.

The funny thing is that this beef actually made me listen to some Drake music when I had only ever heard those I hear passby or in features with Eminem and others in them.

I actually though some of them sounded good but then I also hear that he had ghostwriters write some of his songs like Trophies, so not sure what to think when I’m not invested enough to figure out if the allegations are true or not.

One thing I do find hilarious is the whole “culture vulture” stuff Americans keep saying and I do see a lot of xenophobia. It’s just music. You either like it or not lol.

Ghostwriting is rampant in the music industry. Early Drake likely got his start as a ghostwriter, though that's never really been confirmed. There was some smoke with Wayne at some point iirc, but I'm really not plugged in enough to be certain. Maybe someone else more informed can speak to it.

[Merit]

I can’t guarantee you will like it, as disliking the sound of his voice isn’t something you can do much about, but go all the way back to So Far Gone and/or Comeback Season if you can.

So I tried this. Listened to some songs from So Far Gone. No easier to appreciate his singing, which even he admits isn't that impressive. I personally don't focus much on lyrics, so that's an angle I have difficulty appreciating. A lot of it doesn't feel that impressive, but I guess it comes off as relatable and that matters in a lyric-driven genre, for sure. It's a bit challenging for me to appreciate his broader sense as a musician because I don't know how much of the actual music he writes. It's been said repeatedly that he can't really hold a rhythm and it's not like he's an instrumentalist... but with Logic or Ableton or whatever DAW, he could easily be laying down the basic sounds before firing it off to producers. I know he has producers who send him stuff to see if he can work with it and he can write lyrics around that, but it's this weird contemporary space with that style of music as compared to earlier genres where you know who's doing what, right?

Musically, it is what it is. The layering doesn't feel that remarkable to me. The rhythms are basic, none of the instrumentation is especially compelling, though that isn't really a focus of the genre, to be fair, which is part of my challenge with it. Like, Best I Ever Had has nearly 800 million plays on Spotify, and I couldn't tell you why.

Eh. It is what it is. Not my jam, but clearly something loads of people like. Perhaps I'm stuck in a traditionalist mentality because he doesn't play an instrument and because his overt contribution is mediocre singing and lyrics which don't sound that remarkable to me.

Maybe that's the nice way of saying I'm just old now, lol. Feel a bit like my dad, yelling about something being "just noise."

For me, though, it's a little weird. There's a bunch of rap and house, R+B and various EDM stuff which I do like, so it isn't only genre-related. I can appreciate that sometimes the stuff which hits is more emotional than about the depth of ability required to perform. Hell, I enjoy a bunch of old Nickelback, and none of that was especially remarkable on a musical level either. xD

But damn, Drake's done well for himself, and that at least is quite impressive. Not necessarily from the perspective of musical quality, but he definitely found something which works and seems to reach people.

I appreciate that you gave it a shot. One of Drake's biggest musical innovations is actually how he and his producer 40 mixed the tunes. The "drake sound" of being in an underground pool with a whole lot of sub bass while the vocals are compressed and show up front and centre.

His other innovation was "being a cornball". Like - he appealed to women. He deviated from the mainstream rap model of being the most machismo oriented human and criticism directed his way from the hip hop community often attacks his masculinity. I for one am comfortable with that perspective. A whole lot of dudes need to figure out that being masculine goes way beyond "hoes, bros and bank accounts".

[Merit]

Big label promotion plays a big part too. Look at the world of Kpop. How much of BTS's success is organic and how much of it was manufactured stardom by their agency? Is there really a discernible quality difference between BTS and the hundreds of other competing groups?

It's very easy to manipulate people to like things.
Does Coke really taste better than Pepsi? or is that just what you grew up drinking and got accustomed to?

While I do think there’s a lot of truth to this, BTS (and most K-pop, to some extent) aren’t really the best example.

BTS came from a relatively minor label and are more or less the reason that label is now successful (and can now use clout to promote artists or keep the BTS train running).

I’d listen to the argument that popularity within K-pop comes down to marketing, but I don’t know how much of its global success can be attributed to brute force promotion.

I feel you know more about this than I do, but my two cents is that virtually zero mega artists exist without brute force promotion. While they didn't start out that way (neither did Adele, or Chance the Rapper etc.) they exist and are known now due to "brute force promotion".

Keeping it even more simple, the economy of South Korea is extremely powerful, and thus record companies can make a lot of money on South Korean pop stars. It's a testament to preparation and foresight on the part of their government and people, and kudos to the country for that.