Shaq vs. Duncan: Better Peak and Better Career

[dhsilv2]

Top 100 million to ever play? Perhaps?

But 5'9 Wilt isn't making the nba. I'm not sure 6'6 Wilt has a shot. Certainly not today.

I think you don't realize how much skills it is required to be a good basketball bigman. I also think you minimize bigman skills in this case, bigs tend to learn skills other don't.

Agreed that big man skills dont get talked about enough.
I find it becomes very apparent in adult rec league basketball, played at levels where there aren't that many tall guys. You'll see teams where everyone is in between 5"9" and 6'3", so very little in the ways of size advantage. However, some guys know how play backline defense, and box out. Then on offense you see more screening skills, better timing on cuts and crashes. These things dont get thought of as skills, but they're pretty transformative. Teams with all skilled guard can get killed and not understand why, because they can't play help defense, rebound, or compete in the paint.

You can tell when a 6'2" guy played center on his high school team and can do a bunch of those little things that other guys can't.

I like how even your rec league excludes globally average height guys

But my objective isn't to dismiss big man skills. But just to point out that making the league is so wildly based on athletics. I'm not sure any other major sport comes close. So when people say talent...there's really no greater talent than being born tall. It's so absurdly overly important.

[cupcakesnake]

Top 100 million to ever play? Perhaps?

But 5'9 Wilt isn't making the nba. I'm not sure 6'6 Wilt has a shot. Certainly not today.

A 6'6" dude who's an Olympic-level track star and who's one of the strongest athletes ever... probably has a head start on making the NBA.

Wilt being able to develop shooting skills is quite the question mark.

Would he still be an Olympic-level track guy if he's shorter? Would he be as strong?

I'm not really an expert on the biometrics of this question, but I think that weightlifting strength or a track event like high jump would be transformatively altered by height.

Sure for something like long jump or a 200 meter dash, I assume stride length would be huge.

[cupcakesnake]

I like how even your rec league excludes globally average height guys
[/quote]

I'm from Canada. I think our average is 5'10"!

[dhsilv2]

A 6'6" dude who's an Olympic-level track star and who's one of the strongest athletes ever... probably has a head start on making the NBA.

Wilt being able to develop shooting skills is quite the question mark.

Would he still be an Olympic-level track guy if he's shorter? Would he be as strong?

I'm not really an expert on the biometrics of this question, but I think that weightlifting strength or a track event like high jump would be transformatively altered by height.

Sure for something like long jump or a 200 meter dash, I assume stride length would be huge.

He'd be a very different person. That said 6'6 is still a monster so I'll grant you that. Still he'd need the ball handling, shooting, and what not I'd think. ANd he was lacking.

[dhsilv2]

I like how even your rec league excludes globally average height guys

I'm from Canada. I think our average is 5'10"![/quote]

So you just left off 35% of Canada if we're generous

It still just shows the bias here. And hey, I'm "hair under" 6'0...I swear I was 6'0 when I was 18 with a healthy back and head of hair. But I grew up playing with some friends who were a lot shorter. So I 100% got good at posting up. My whole game was in the post so I get it. It's a skill, but I'll never feel more skilled than my 5'4 best friend growing up crossing me over and getting jumpers off over me. But he was never making the NBA or past his middle school team. Meanwhile my post game doesn't translate to my high school where we had multiple guys over 6'6 and a good buddy of mine went on to play in europe listed at 6'9 (he was taller than some UK players who were listed at 6'10 and 6'11). And hey know I had better post moves than him! But what good are they? lol.

[tsherkin]

It's a skill, but I'll never feel more skilled than my 5'4 best friend growing up crossing me over and getting jumpers off over me.

This is an aesthetic/ease of perception thing, though. A hook shot is visually less interesting than crossovers, in the main because most of the work comes from quiet footwork and then relatively simple movement. Handles are very loud and in your face, so to speak, so they're often treated as a more impressive skill. They're also a little more translatable as height changes and such, because you don't see a TON of advanced guard post at higher levels.

I think it's appropriate to consider the value of size/athletic ability in the NBA, but also not to overvalue shooting as the only main "skill" in the game, which is what often happens with big guys like Shaq and Wilt. Especially when they weren't really encouraged/allowed to showcase the full breadth of their finesse game. Shaq, for example, had at least as much in the way of handles as Giannis, and likely would have used those more in today's environment.

Guys of his sort are serially underappreciated. The minute you shoot poorly at the line, you are classified as "unskilled" or "weakly skilled" across the board, and it isn't correct.

[dhsilv2]

It's a skill, but I'll never feel more skilled than my 5'4 best friend growing up crossing me over and getting jumpers off over me.

This is an aesthetic/ease of perception thing, though. A hook shot is visually less interesting than crossovers, in the main because most of the work comes from quiet footwork and then relatively simple movement. Handles are very loud and in your face, so to speak, so they're often treated as a more impressive skill. They're also a little more translatable as height changes and such, because you don't see a TON of advanced guard post at higher levels.

I think it's appropriate to consider the value of size/athletic ability in the NBA, but also not to overvalue shooting as the only main "skill" in the game, which is what often happens with big guys like Shaq and Wilt. Especially when they weren't really encouraged/allowed to showcase the full breadth of their finesse game. Shaq, for example, had at least as much in the way of handles as Giannis, and likely would have used those more in today's environment.

Guys of his sort are serially underappreciated. The minute you shoot poorly at the line, you are classified as "unskilled" or "weakly skilled" across the board, and it isn't correct.

I mean...ok. As long as we all agree Wilt isn't skilled relative to the average basketball player call it whatever. But if you start to act like Shaq or Wilt have skills relative to even the average high school player...that's a problem.

[tsherkin]

I mean...ok. As long as we all agree Wilt isn't skilled relative to the average basketball player call it whatever. But if you start to act like Shaq or Wilt have skills relative to even the average high school player...that's a problem.

It sounds like your primary definition of skills in this context is "shooting." And yes, if you define "skill" to only refer to shooting, then I would agree that neither Shaq nor Wilt matches up to even HS-level guys. Beyond that, though, I think like 70s said, you're heavily underselling the skills involved in being a big man. It really isn't just size.

[dhsilv2]

I mean...ok. As long as we all agree Wilt isn't skilled relative to the average basketball player call it whatever. But if you start to act like Shaq or Wilt have skills relative to even the average high school player...that's a problem.

It sounds like your primary definition of skills in this context is "shooting." And yes, if you define "skill" to only refer to shooting, then I would agree that neither Shaq nor Wilt matches up to even HS-level guys. Beyond that, though, I think like 70s said, you're heavily underselling the skills involved in being a big man. It really isn't just size.

I hadn't even considered shooting. I'd start with ball handling.

[tsherkin]

I hadn't even considered shooting. I'd start with ball handling.

I have a harder time evaluating Wilt in terms of ball-handling because I never saw what he looked like with the Globetrotters and he was never asked to handle outside of the post in games I saw. With Shaq, I have a more confident idea of his ball-handling abilities, and it's safe to say that he could have done a lot more with that skill set than he did.

[dhsilv2]

I hadn't even considered shooting. I'd start with ball handling.

I have a harder time evaluating Wilt in terms of ball-handling because I never saw what he looked like with the Globetrotters and he was never asked to handle outside of the post in games I saw. With Shaq, I have a more confident idea of his ball-handling abilities, and it's safe to say that he could have done a lot more with that skill set than he did.

Shaq is not a better ball handler than a good high school boy's starting point guard...

[Packbuckman]

I hadn't even considered shooting. I'd start with ball handling.

I have a harder time evaluating Wilt in terms of ball-handling because I never saw what he looked like with the Globetrotters and he was never asked to handle outside of the post in games I saw. With Shaq, I have a more confident idea of his ball-handling abilities, and it's safe to say that he could have done a lot more with that skill set than he did.

Shaq is not a better ball handler than a good high school boy's starting point guard...

Now your cherry picking a bit taking the PG position where you have to be the best ball handler on the team. Are any big men better ball handlers than a PG no of course not but that doesn’t mean they are not good ball handlers especially for their positions. Wilt and Shaq were very good ball handlers for centers. Giannis is an exceptional ball handler for a PF and if you add all what they do very good to great what makes them a great player not just being big.

[dhsilv2]

I have a harder time evaluating Wilt in terms of ball-handling because I never saw what he looked like with the Globetrotters and he was never asked to handle outside of the post in games I saw. With Shaq, I have a more confident idea of his ball-handling abilities, and it's safe to say that he could have done a lot more with that skill set than he did.

Shaq is not a better ball handler than a good high school boy's starting point guard...

Now your cherry picking a bit taking the PG position where you have to be the best ball handler on the team. Are any big men better ball handlers than a PG no of course not but that doesn’t mean they are not good ball handlers especially for their positions. Wilt and Shaq were very good ball handlers for centers. Giannis is an exceptional ball handler for a PF and if you add all what they do very good to great what makes them a great player not just being big.

You make a good point. I shouldn't bring up positions as that dumbs down the conversation. Shaq isn't more skilled than bottom 25% of high school players in terms of height. We obviously grant less skill as players get taller because height just matters more.

Take Chris Paul. A very SKILLED basketball player.

At 5'7 he doesn't make the NBA. At 6'7 he's the GOAT.

[tsherkin]

At 5'7 he doesn't make the NBA. At 6'7 he's the GOAT.

I doubt he'd have been the GOAT at 6'7, to be honest, but it certainly would have helped him a lot.

[dhsilv2]

At 5'7 he doesn't make the NBA. At 6'7 he's the GOAT.

I doubt he'd have been the GOAT at 6'7, to be honest, but it certainly would have helped him a lot.

Guess it would depend on how that was impacted by his knee being bone on bone. But healthy he's easily the GOAT.

[tsherkin]

But healthy he's easily the GOAT.

Can't say I agree with that at all, no.

[dhsilv2]

But healthy he's easily the GOAT.

Can't say I agree with that at all, no.

To each their own. But he'd be a rich man's Leonard defensively. He'd be maybe the greatest scorer in nba history. And he can pass pretty well...

[tsherkin]

But he'd be a rich man's Leonard defensively.

Based on what? You afforded him height, not a Leonard-type build. And it's not like Paul was beefy to begin with. Leonard is well-built and very strong, and neither of those things apply to Paul even relative to his own size. He also had a +4.5" wingspan, while Kawhi's is +9. They aren't comparable physical specimens, and it's due to a lot more than height. Leonard was 6'6 without shoes and 227 lbs at the Combine with that 7'3 wingspan, remember. And Chris Paul was 5'11.75 with a 6'4.25 wingspan, at 178 lbs.

He'd be maybe the greatest scorer in nba history.

Based on what? The hyperbole is a little strong here, man.

[dhsilv2]

But he'd be a rich man's Leonard defensively.

Based on what? You afforded him height, not a Leonard-type build. And it's not like Paul was beefy to begin with. Leonard is well-built and very strong, and neither of those things apply to Paul even relative to his own size. He also had a +4.5" wingspan, while Kawhi's is +9. They aren't comparable physical specimens, and it's due to a lot more than height. Leonard was 6'6 without shoes and 227 lbs at the Combine with that 7'3 wingspan, remember. And Chris Paul was 5'11.75 with a 6'4.25 wingspan, at 178 lbs.

He'd be maybe the greatest scorer in nba history.

Based on what? The hyperbole is a little strong here, man.

Paul is strong as hell dude. Yeah at 6'7 he'd be a faster more agile and just as strong leonard...without the claws obviously.

Meanwhile as a scorer, we're talking about a guy who's 6'0 with only one knee and can score 20+ in the NBA. Yeah making him 6'7 he becomes impossible to guard.

The difference in not making the NBA and being in the hall is without a doubt 7 inches. Look at Pippen. Taking a top 20 type player and making him 7 inches taller would without a doubt make him the GOAT.

[tsherkin]

Paul is strong as hell dude. Yeah at 6'7 he'd be a faster more agile and just as strong leonard...without the claws obviously.

I mean, no. There's no guarantee that height alone would give him the same level of strength, nor the same level of mass. And there's no guarantee that he'd maintain that level of speed with that extra height and mass, either.

Meanwhile as a scorer, we're talking about a guy who's 6'0 with only one knee and can score 20+ in the NBA. Yeah making him 6'7 he becomes impossible to guard.

Again, no. There's nothing to suggest he'd be significantly better than Gervin or Jordan or Durant, etc. He'd certainly be up there if he showed enough aggression, which was something missing in his actual career, but again, hyperbole.

The difference in not making the NBA and being in the hall is without a doubt 7 inches.

For some players, sure. You need different skills at shorter heights, certainly. And there is a minimum threshold of height past which you lack the ability to defend. The few short guys who defend well generally have to be pretty doggish on that end, and tend to have pretty strong bases, which is its own particular physical profile. FVV, Kyle Lowry, etc. Or someone with both good base AND particularly long arms.