OT: Hows everyone feeling about Drake these days?

[tsherkin]

I appreciate that you gave it a shot.

Had to, in order to make at least an attempt at being fair to the content, right? It's far enough outside my normal listening tastes that it's a challenge for me to appreciate, but that doesn't mean anything objectively, after all. Didn't want to just be the old guy yelling at the kids to 'turn down that noise!' xD

One of Drake's biggest musical innovations is actually how he and his producer 40 mixed the tunes. The "drake sound" of being in an underground pool with a whole lot of sub bass while the vocals are compressed and show up front and centre.

Fair, that makes some sense.

His other innovation was "being a cornball". Like - he appealed to women. He deviated from the mainstream rap model of being the most machismo oriented human and criticism directed his way from the hip hop community often attacks his masculinity. I for one am comfortable with that perspective. A whole lot of dudes need to figure out that being masculine goes way beyond "hoes, bros and bank accounts".

Yeah, that's also fair. So, lyrical content and image more than anything else. I can see both why I struggle to find connection to that and why it's important to his popularity at the same time, for sure.

[Merit]

I appreciate that you gave it a shot.

Had to, in order to make at least an attempt at being fair to the content, right? It's far enough outside my normal listening tastes that it's a challenge for me to appreciate, but that doesn't mean anything objectively, after all. Didn't want to just be the old guy yelling at the kids to 'turn down that noise!' xD

One of Drake's biggest musical innovations is actually how he and his producer 40 mixed the tunes. The "drake sound" of being in an underground pool with a whole lot of sub bass while the vocals are compressed and show up front and centre.

Fair, that makes some sense.

His other innovation was "being a cornball". Like - he appealed to women. He deviated from the mainstream rap model of being the most machismo oriented human and criticism directed his way from the hip hop community often attacks his masculinity. I for one am comfortable with that perspective. A whole lot of dudes need to figure out that being masculine goes way beyond "hoes, bros and bank accounts".

Yeah, that's also fair. So, lyrical content and image more than anything else. I can see both why I struggle to find connection to that and why it's important to his popularity at the same time, for sure.

It's definitely image and lyrical content to start with - because that's what's most overt. The other piece is utilizing unique samples - given that hiphop is a genre of interpolation. For example, Ellie Goulding, Florence and the Machine, Lykke Li, Jamie XX, Gil Scott-Heron, Charlotte Day Wilson (Toronto!), Hiatus Kaiyote, Snoh Aalegra, Jorja Smith, George Strait, Jai Paul and the list goes on and on. I wilfully selected Pitchfork friendly/hipster friendly artists as well as absolute legends to demonstrate that it's also Drake's collaborations that have made a huge difference to his sound, and that's before accounting for the Carribean and African diaspora he freely credits in his music.

One of my favourite tunes by drake is Passionfruit - and it's cool af and highly musical IMO. The sounds and mixing are just so pleasant, and it's a great driving home late night on the gardiner tune. Benny Sings version is fire too. I'll link both here for your perusal.

Watch on YouTube

> Drake's Passionfruit

https://youtu.be/0nxV3vuxM2k?si=o0QcfqeANEcr8ZZK > Benny Sings Passionfruit

[tsherkin]

It's definitely image and lyrical content to start with - because that's what's most overt. The other piece is utilizing unique samples - given that hiphop is a genre of interpolation. For example, Ellie Goulding, Florence and the Machine, Lykke Li, Jamie XX, Gil Scott-Heron, Charlotte Day Wilson (Toronto!), Hiatus Kaiyote, Snoh Aalegra, Jorja Smith, George Strait, Jai Paul and the list goes on and on. I wilfully selected Pitchfork friendly/hipster friendly artists as well as absolute legends to demonstrate that it's also Drake's collaborations that have made a huge difference to his sound, and that's before accounting for the Carribean and African diaspora he freely credits in his music.

Interesting.

It certainly makes more sense why I have no real interest in him, though. The actual music is pretty simplistic to me on an instrumental and rhythmic level, AND his singing is pretty mediocre. But I am very distant from all the stuff you're talking about on a subjective level, and I can see how that could be engaging for someone who was into those things if they were more lyrically/vocally focused than am I, for sure.

One of my favourite tunes by drake is Passionfruit - and it's cool af and highly musical IMO. The sounds and mixing are just so pleasant, and it's a great driving home late night on the gardiner tune. Benny Sings version is fire too. I'll link both here for your perusal.

The opening is pretty nice, actually. Decent rhythm, mellow sound, very promising. The minute the first vocal section breaks in, it loses me. And that's even before Drake himself starts singing. And then the song basically breaks all the rules for making interesting music in adjacent genres which I've heard (I'm actually doing an EDM music production course atm, trying to broaden my musical horizons, heh), because it's almost nothing but the same loop over and over again, which gets very boring to me. There's just too much SAME, you know? I realize it's more about the lyrics than anything else, so that's different than your generic no-lyric EDM song, or something with just a small, repeating vocal sample or whatever, though, so again, we come back to my subjective block because I very rarely invest in vocals/lyrics.

Also, I have no ability to appreciate the value of his collaborations as value to his music, so fair enough in mentioning that. It never even occurred to me as a value point because it doesn't change anything about how I hear the music, but if you're invested in the other artists, then it's probably more exciting and intriguing as a result, for sure.

[Merit]

It's definitely image and lyrical content to start with - because that's what's most overt. The other piece is utilizing unique samples - given that hiphop is a genre of interpolation. For example, Ellie Goulding, Florence and the Machine, Lykke Li, Jamie XX, Gil Scott-Heron, Charlotte Day Wilson (Toronto!), Hiatus Kaiyote, Snoh Aalegra, Jorja Smith, George Strait, Jai Paul and the list goes on and on. I wilfully selected Pitchfork friendly/hipster friendly artists as well as absolute legends to demonstrate that it's also Drake's collaborations that have made a huge difference to his sound, and that's before accounting for the Carribean and African diaspora he freely credits in his music.

Interesting.

It certainly makes more sense why I have no real interest in him, though. The actual music is pretty simplistic to me on an instrumental and rhythmic level, AND his singing is pretty mediocre. But I am very distant from all the stuff you're talking about on a subjective level, and I can see how that could be engaging for someone who was into those things if they were more lyrically/vocally focused than am I, for sure.

One of my favourite tunes by drake is Passionfruit - and it's cool af and highly musical IMO. The sounds and mixing are just so pleasant, and it's a great driving home late night on the gardiner tune. Benny Sings version is fire too. I'll link both here for your perusal.

The opening is pretty nice, actually. Decent rhythm, mellow sound, very promising. The minute the first vocal section breaks in, it loses me. And that's even before Drake himself starts singing. And then the song basically breaks all the rules for making interesting music in adjacent genres which I've heard (I'm actually doing an EDM music production course atm, trying to broaden my musical horizons, heh), because it's almost nothing but the same loop over and over again, which gets very boring to me. There's just too much SAME, you know? I realize it's more about the lyrics than anything else, so that's different than your generic no-lyric EDM song, or something with just a small, repeating vocal sample or whatever, though, so again, we come back to my subjective block because I very rarely invest in vocals/lyrics.

Also, I have no ability to appreciate the value of his collaborations as value to his music, so fair enough in mentioning that. It never even occurred to me as a value point because it doesn't change anything about how I hear the music, but if you're invested in the other artists, then it's probably more exciting and intriguing as a result, for sure.

I mean, hip hop as a genre is about lyrics and repetition, but I hear you. As a fan of soul and jazz music, I deeply enjoy the way snippets of songs are reworked and can spark an interest in the original tunes.

If overt musicality is what you’re after, as opposed to a pop music sensibility- then Kendrick Lamar is probably going to pique your interest more. Specifically his album to pimp a butterfly. I’m curious how you receive that album.

[PerfectJab]

Being called a pedo especially in todays day and age can really damage a man's reputation. Look what it did to MJ so I can definitely understand the logic. Sure it's not 'cool' but this isn't high school either. He has a brand on the mainstream and you can't just drop slander like that without any proof rap battle or not. I think if you called him a coward, soft whatever he wouldn't care but pedo is another level.

Not gonna get into this as it doesn't need to be rehashed for the 10000th time... but there is enough "smoke" and public things regarding Drake + underage girls that it kind of isn't slander at this point.

The dude has done some questionable things with underage girls in public. It makes you wonder

We have a different perspective of what constitutes slander. The narrative and optics can be spun any way you want but we all know what pedofilia really implies and the subsequent consequences legally that come from it. I don’t see Drake as that. To me it’s like calling someone a coward. There is context and opinion when it comes to that but the root baseline of what it is can’t be uniformity blanketed onto an individual unless proven based on a universal standard. There is an argument on the other end of every questionable thing optically that he’s done. R Kelly on the other hand…

Either way I don’t see the reason for the hate. He literally has helped to make Toronto a cooler place to be in the minds of young impressionable basketball players. As a Raptors fan he should be appreciated for that. Aside from that he’s just some guy that makes music who has way too little impact on the quality of my life to get to the point to dislike him and it’s amusing to me when people do. It’s an entertainer for gods sake lol

[ill-Will03]

Drakes one of the GOATs

[720]

Big label promotion plays a big part too. Look at the world of Kpop. How much of BTS's success is organic and how much of it was manufactured stardom by their agency? Is there really a discernible quality difference between BTS and the hundreds of other competing groups?

It's very easy to manipulate people to like things.
Does Coke really taste better than Pepsi? or is that just what you grew up drinking and got accustomed to?

While I do think there’s a lot of truth to this, BTS (and most K-pop, to some extent) aren’t really the best example.

BTS came from a relatively minor label and are more or less the reason that label is now successful (and can now use clout to promote artists or keep the BTS train running).

I’d listen to the argument that popularity within K-pop comes down to marketing, but I don’t know how much of its global success can be attributed to brute force promotion.

I feel you know more about this than I do, but my two cents is that virtually zero mega artists exist without brute force promotion. While they didn't start out that way (neither did Adele, or Chance the Rapper etc.) they exist and are known now due to "brute force promotion".

Keeping it even more simple, the economy of South Korea is extremely powerful, and thus record companies can make a lot of money on South Korean pop stars. It's a testament to preparation and foresight on the part of their government and people, and kudos to the country for that.

It was basically EXO dominating the market with their label backing (SM). SM was (probably still is?) a big label in South Korea. At the time it was part of the Big 3 (SM, JYP, and YG). These three labels dominated K-pop. BTS’s label Big Hit (now they go by HYBE) were small in comparison. BTS sorta carried that label and now they’re the biggest label in K-pop. It’s actually crazy. BTS is like the Drake of K-pop in a way . Their influence and impact are probably never going to get replicated.

[CPT]

Being called a pedo especially in todays day and age can really damage a man's reputation. Look what it did to MJ so I can definitely understand the logic. Sure it's not 'cool' but this isn't high school either. He has a brand on the mainstream and you can't just drop slander like that without any proof rap battle or not. I think if you called him a coward, soft whatever he wouldn't care but pedo is another level.

Not gonna get into this as it doesn't need to be rehashed for the 10000th time... but there is enough "smoke" and public things regarding Drake + underage girls that it kind of isn't slander at this point.

The dude has done some questionable things with underage girls in public. It makes you wonder

We have a different perspective of what constitutes slander. The narrative and optics can be spun any way you want but we all know what pedofilia really implies and the subsequent consequences legally that come from it. I don’t see Drake as that. To me it’s like calling someone a coward. There is context and opinion when it comes to that but the root baseline of what it is can’t be uniformity blanketed onto an individual unless proven based on a universal standard. There is an argument on the other end of every questionable thing optically that he’s done. R Kelly on the other hand…

Either way I don’t see the reason for the hate. He literally has helped to make Toronto a cooler place to be in the minds of young impressionable basketball players. As a Raptors fan he should be appreciated for that. Aside from that he’s just some guy that makes music who has way too little impact on the quality of my life to get to the point to dislike him and it’s amusing to me when people do. It’s an entertainer for gods sake lol

If nothing else, Drake’s career is impressive for breaking through Toronto’s hater culture. Nothing brings people together better than hating on a local artist.

The bolded part is also very true. Whatever the perception of Toronto is now, it would be a lot worse without Drake.

[bballsparkin]

Definitely one of the greatest of all time.

Without a single doubt.

It's okay not to be a fan of his character and criticize him for some of his decisions outside of music, but it's ignorant to deny his greatness as a music artist. Numbers don't lie - the man's music is timeless.

Huge fan of his most recent project $$$4U as well.

Numbers don't lie? That's exactly what numbers do! He's successful. Obviously talented. Call him "one of the greatest of all time" expect static. Simple.

[djsunyc]

Being called a pedo especially in todays day and age can really damage a man's reputation. Look what it did to MJ so I can definitely understand the logic. Sure it's not 'cool' but this isn't high school either. He has a brand on the mainstream and you can't just drop slander like that without any proof rap battle or not. I think if you called him a coward, soft whatever he wouldn't care but pedo is another level.

I'm on team Drake. He has always uplifted the city and makes good hits. Yes he doesn't fit the stereotypical rapper mold but that's exactly what has allowed him to be so successful. Let's be real too, the very people that are criticizing him are the same people that used him for hits and they're obviously jealous and trying to bring him down. Regardless, he's home grown, F Kendrick

depends on who is accused because there is a president that's doing just fine.

[Purple Fever]

Growing up in the hip hop scene through the 90s and 00s in Canada was full of hate towards people that came from here. There weren't too many great artist but anytime some local person would try to make a name for themselves everyone would hate on them automatically, it was almost a toronto culture thing, I never understood it.

Fast forward a bit to Drake, this guy has legit been one the biggest most recognizable names in music for a long time. Like it or not, he made great music for a long time. Ask any American and they give him his flowers, he was lots of peoples favorite artist...but still, even reading this thread, people from Toronto hate on him. It almost seems people are afraid to admit they like him, especially now. Not everyone likes him and I get that but we gotta support our talent, this guy puts on for his city and has done more to represent where he's from than almost anyone.

He made a mistake getting into it with Kendrick, he had nothing to gain and plenty to lose. You never punch below your weight class and this is a textbook case of what can happen. In an industry that the US largely controls, a Canadian went up against an American, it would inevitably become an us vs them battle that would bring out the trolls from everywhere. When you saw certain people trying to involve themselves it made you realize it went beyond Kendrick and Drake

I still laugh at how Demar managed to get himself involved in all this which brought on some negative personal backlash

Bingo. He “lost” this battle as soon as he responded to Kendrick’s attempts to start ****.

[YogurtProducer]

Being called a pedo especially in todays day and age can really damage a man's reputation. Look what it did to MJ so I can definitely understand the logic. Sure it's not 'cool' but this isn't high school either. He has a brand on the mainstream and you can't just drop slander like that without any proof rap battle or not. I think if you called him a coward, soft whatever he wouldn't care but pedo is another level.

Not gonna get into this as it doesn't need to be rehashed for the 10000th time... but there is enough "smoke" and public things regarding Drake + underage girls that it kind of isn't slander at this point.

The dude has done some questionable things with underage girls in public. It makes you wonder

We have a different perspective of what constitutes slander. The narrative and optics can be spun any way you want but we all know what pedofilia really implies and the subsequent consequences legally that come from it. I don’t see Drake as that. To me it’s like calling someone a coward. There is context and opinion when it comes to that but the root baseline of what it is can’t be uniformity blanketed onto an individual unless proven based on a universal standard. There is an argument on the other end of every questionable thing optically that he’s done. R Kelly on the other hand…

Either way I don’t see the reason for the hate. He literally has helped to make Toronto a cooler place to be in the minds of young impressionable basketball players. As a Raptors fan he should be appreciated for that. Aside from that he’s just some guy that makes music who has way too little impact on the quality of my life to get to the point to dislike him and it’s amusing to me when people do. It’s an entertainer for gods sake lol

Don't start a rap battle if you don't want **** being flung your way...

[Merit]

While I do think there’s a lot of truth to this, BTS (and most K-pop, to some extent) aren’t really the best example.

BTS came from a relatively minor label and are more or less the reason that label is now successful (and can now use clout to promote artists or keep the BTS train running).

I’d listen to the argument that popularity within K-pop comes down to marketing, but I don’t know how much of its global success can be attributed to brute force promotion.

I feel you know more about this than I do, but my two cents is that virtually zero mega artists exist without brute force promotion. While they didn't start out that way (neither did Adele, or Chance the Rapper etc.) they exist and are known now due to "brute force promotion".

Keeping it even more simple, the economy of South Korea is extremely powerful, and thus record companies can make a lot of money on South Korean pop stars. It's a testament to preparation and foresight on the part of their government and people, and kudos to the country for that.

It was basically EXO dominating the market with their label backing (SM). SM was (probably still is?) a big label in South Korea. At the time it was part of the Big 3 (SM, JYP, and YG). These three labels dominated K-pop. BTS’s label Big Hit (now they go by HYBE) were small in comparison. BTS sorta carried that label and now they’re the biggest label in K-pop. It’s actually crazy. BTS is like the Drake of K-pop in a way . Their influence and impact are probably never going to get replicated.

Thank you for elaborating and helping me understand. Cheers.

[Merit]

Definitely one of the greatest of all time.

Without a single doubt.

It's okay not to be a fan of his character and criticize him for some of his decisions outside of music, but it's ignorant to deny his greatness as a music artist. Numbers don't lie - the man's music is timeless.

Huge fan of his most recent project $$$4U as well.

Numbers don't lie? That's exactly what numbers do! He's successful. Obviously talented. Call him "one of the greatest of all time" expect static. Simple.

If you’re talking sales numbers he has more number 1 hits than the Beatles.

[Merit]

Not gonna get into this as it doesn't need to be rehashed for the 10000th time... but there is enough "smoke" and public things regarding Drake + underage girls that it kind of isn't slander at this point.

The dude has done some questionable things with underage girls in public. It makes you wonder

We have a different perspective of what constitutes slander. The narrative and optics can be spun any way you want but we all know what pedofilia really implies and the subsequent consequences legally that come from it. I don’t see Drake as that. To me it’s like calling someone a coward. There is context and opinion when it comes to that but the root baseline of what it is can’t be uniformity blanketed onto an individual unless proven based on a universal standard. There is an argument on the other end of every questionable thing optically that he’s done. R Kelly on the other hand…

Either way I don’t see the reason for the hate. He literally has helped to make Toronto a cooler place to be in the minds of young impressionable basketball players. As a Raptors fan he should be appreciated for that. Aside from that he’s just some guy that makes music who has way too little impact on the quality of my life to get to the point to dislike him and it’s amusing to me when people do. It’s an entertainer for gods sake lol

If nothing else, Drake’s career is impressive for breaking through Toronto’s hater culture. Nothing brings people together better than hating on a local artist.

The bolded part is also very true. Whatever the perception of Toronto is now, it would be a lot worse without Drake.

Toronto’s hater culture is SO strong. It’s not like that in the states at all.