Fisher: Raptors are still shopping RJ Barrett and Immanuel Quickley

[JB7]

RJ is extension eligible on Oct 1. It'll be interesting to see if any news come out of that.

Given the new CBA, if he re-signs at a lower AAV say low 20s, it'd be more palatable to keep him around due to our tax situation. It may increase his trade value as well.

If no extension can be done, he's probably a goner.

I can't imagine he will have much leverage, based on what scoring SG's, with limited D, are getting paid these days.

They might be able to negotiate something lower than what he is currently getting paid. The good thing for RJ is he will have made over $140M in career earnings, before his next deal.

[Pointgod]

They'll be fine. They improved. They may not be exceptional, but they addressed a core weakness and there are two teams missing from the East who were relevant last year. Orlando will likely be in the second round or later this year.

They really didn't, though.

Bane for his career has been a 41% from 3 on 6.3 3's a night. Likely closer to 7 due to his rookie year but immaterial.

Magic gave up KCP and Cole Anthony. Those guys were 1st, and 5th, on their team in 3PA and 3PM last year, and were 1st/2nd on their team in 3P% amongst rotation guys.

So they got rid of their top 2 shooters, replaced them with 1 better shooter, and still have a roster of primarily non-shooters. Is Bane better than KCP? ABSOLUTELY. Is Bane soooo much better than KCP in that role that we can lock them into some major improvement? eh....

Teams are gonna load up on Bane when he is the only shooter, and force the rest of the inefficient shooters to try and score. There is a reason why KCP saw his %'s fall in ORL and a big reason why is because teams can more easily defend a single shooter, than a team that has 3+ shooters. When the ball is swinging, and you see in front of you Bane, Suggs, and Paolo.. I know which shooter I am running out to.

They are projected to start Suggs/Bane/Paolo/Franz/WCJ - aka, one above average shooter
Their bench is Jones/Richardson/Black/Silva/Issaac/Wagner - aka, one above average shooter

I just don't think it's gonna be pretty. A great defence, as the 2022-24 Raptors and 2024-25 Magic have proven, is a great floor raiser. It is not a great ceiling raiser, and they're gonna struggle offensively, again.

You’re underrating Orlando’s team and offseason improvements. The last two seasons they’ve been 27th and 22nd in offensive rating. They were 27th with KCP and Cole Anthony, two players that were negative offensive players that shot .34 and .35% from 3 respectively. Even if you give all of their shots to Bane who shoots .39% you’re getting more efficient from 3. They also brought in Tyus Jones who shoots .41% from 3 on volume and is also a plus offensive player.

The biggest differentiator is that both these guys can play make so they’ll be getting their teammates open shots. The last two seasons Orlando had a 27th and 22nd ranked offense. Even if they’re a middle of the pack offense and they maintain their top 2 defensive rating they should easily be a top 3 team in this year’s East. Yes a lot also depends on Banchero and Wagner learning how to shoot but they just have to get up to respectable from 3 for the team to have an offensive leap.

[YogurtProducer]

They'll be fine. They improved. They may not be exceptional, but they addressed a core weakness and there are two teams missing from the East who were relevant last year. Orlando will likely be in the second round or later this year.

They really didn't, though.

Bane for his career has been a 41% from 3 on 6.3 3's a night. Likely closer to 7 due to his rookie year but immaterial.

Magic gave up KCP and Cole Anthony. Those guys were 1st, and 5th, on their team in 3PA and 3PM last year, and were 1st/2nd on their team in 3P% amongst rotation guys.

So they got rid of their top 2 shooters, replaced them with 1 better shooter, and still have a roster of primarily non-shooters. Is Bane better than KCP? ABSOLUTELY. Is Bane soooo much better than KCP in that role that we can lock them into some major improvement? eh....

Teams are gonna load up on Bane when he is the only shooter, and force the rest of the inefficient shooters to try and score. There is a reason why KCP saw his %'s fall in ORL and a big reason why is because teams can more easily defend a single shooter, than a team that has 3+ shooters. When the ball is swinging, and you see in front of you Bane, Suggs, and Paolo.. I know which shooter I am running out to.

They are projected to start Suggs/Bane/Paolo/Franz/WCJ - aka, one above average shooter
Their bench is Jones/Richardson/Black/Silva/Issaac/Wagner - aka, one above average shooter

I just don't think it's gonna be pretty. A great defence, as the 2022-24 Raptors and 2024-25 Magic have proven, is a great floor raiser. It is not a great ceiling raiser, and they're gonna struggle offensively, again.

You’re underrating Orlando’s team and offseason improvements. The last two seasons they’ve been 27th and 22nd in offensive rating. They were 27th with KCP and Cole Anthony, two players that were negative offensive players that shot .34 and .35% from 3 respectively. Even if you give all of their shots to Bane who shoots .39% you’re getting more efficient from 3. They also brought in Tyus Jones who shoots .41% from 3 on volume and is also a plus offensive player.

The biggest differentiator is that both these guys can play make so they’ll be getting their teammates open shots. The last two seasons Orlando had a 27th and 22nd ranked offense. Even if they’re a middle of the pack offense and they maintain their top 2 defensive rating they should easily be a top 3 team in this year’s East. Yes a lot also depends on Banchero and Wagner learning how to shoot but they just have to get up to respectable from 3 for the team to have an offensive leap.

I just don’t see the improvement being as big as people think it will be.

I don’t think Bane+Jones takes a team from awful offensively, to anything to be excited about.

Let’s say they get to average offensively, and the same defensively, that’s pretty much the 2024-25 Clippers or Rockets. If they match their offensive output, that is 50ish wins… but do we really think they’re gonna get 6 points per 100 better offensively to match those teams? I personally don’t think Bane is a good enough player to have a true #1 type option impact on an offense.

[tsherkin]

I don’t think Bane+Jones takes a team from awful offensively, to anything to be excited about.

Let’s say they get to average offensively, and the same defensively, that’s pretty much the 2024-25 Clippers or Rockets. If they match their offensive output, that is 50ish wins… but do we really think they’re gonna get 6 points per 100 better offensively to match those teams? I personally don’t think Bane is a good enough player to have a true #1 type option impact on an offense.

So The 25 Clippers and Rockets were were a Net +4.8 team, the Rockets about +4.5.

The Magic were a -4.9 defense (better than either of those guys) but were a -5.1 offense. They were literally the 4th-worst offense in the league, and that's with Banchero missing half the season, Wagner missing 22 games, Suggs playing less than half the season, and no Bane.

Literally the year before, they were a 113.4 ORTG team, a -1.9 offense. Look at THAT team, and add Bane, and then it isn't unreasonable to think of that squad as SIGNIFICANTLY improved on offense. He doesn't have to exert "true #1 type option impact" on their offense. They just need to be the team they were in 2024 and then have Bane's third-wheel offense boost on top of that, and they'll be in considerably better shape.

And yes, that sounds like a team which is a little better than the Clips or Rockets were last year, low/mid 50s in wins in an average season. East is weaker with a couple of teams down major players, so it's possible they might look a little better than that, though that's probably pushing it. They look like a second round or ECF team, though. Celtics won't be a 60+-win team and the Pacers aren't going to be a 50+-win team either, so there's a lot more wiggle room in the East. They look pretty clearly better that Detroit, Milwaukee, and really anyone but New York or Cleveland.

[YogurtProducer]

I don’t think Bane+Jones takes a team from awful offensively, to anything to be excited about.

Let’s say they get to average offensively, and the same defensively, that’s pretty much the 2024-25 Clippers or Rockets. If they match their offensive output, that is 50ish wins… but do we really think they’re gonna get 6 points per 100 better offensively to match those teams? I personally don’t think Bane is a good enough player to have a true #1 type option impact on an offense.

So The 25 Clippers and Rockets were were a Net +4.8 team, the Rockets about +4.5.

The Magic were a -4.9 defense (better than either of those guys) but were a -5.1 offense. They were literally the 4th-worst offense in the league, and that's with Banchero missing half the season, Wagner missing 22 games, Suggs playing less than half the season, and no Bane.

Literally the year before, they were a 113.4 ORTG team, a -1.9 offense. Look at THAT team, and add Bane, and then it isn't unreasonable to think of that squad as SIGNIFICANTLY improved on offense. He doesn't have to exert "true #1 type option impact" on their offense. They just need to be the team they were in 2024 and then have Bane's third-wheel offense boost on top of that, and they'll be in considerably better shape.

And yes, that sounds like a team which is a little better than the Clips or Rockets were last year, low/mid 50s in wins in an average season. East is weaker with a couple of teams down major players, so it's possible they might look a little better than that, though that's probably pushing it. They look like a second round or ECF team, though. Celtics won't be a 60+-win team and the Pacers aren't going to be a 50+-win team either, so there's a lot more wiggle room in the East. They look pretty clearly better that Detroit, Milwaukee, and really anyone but New York or Cleveland.

See I disagree.

I don’t think ORL is a lock to be better than LAC or HOU (the 24/25 versions).

They’re clearly not as good as NYK or CLE, and I honestly don’t think it is any guarantee they are better than MIL or PHI (health permitting) either.

Then there is still IND, TOR, ATL, etc. who IMO have just as good a chance as any of being just as good.

ORL screams 45-49 win team to me. Yet it feels like people are locking them into 50+.


If Paolo/Wagner play like they did last year, they’re not a top 3 lock. Obviously with internal improvements a lot can change.

[Pointgod]

I don’t think Bane+Jones takes a team from awful offensively, to anything to be excited about.

Let’s say they get to average offensively, and the same defensively, that’s pretty much the 2024-25 Clippers or Rockets. If they match their offensive output, that is 50ish wins… but do we really think they’re gonna get 6 points per 100 better offensively to match those teams? I personally don’t think Bane is a good enough player to have a true #1 type option impact on an offense.

So The 25 Clippers and Rockets were were a Net +4.8 team, the Rockets about +4.5.

The Magic were a -4.9 defense (better than either of those guys) but were a -5.1 offense. They were literally the 4th-worst offense in the league, and that's with Banchero missing half the season, Wagner missing 22 games, Suggs playing less than half the season, and no Bane.

Literally the year before, they were a 113.4 ORTG team, a -1.9 offense. Look at THAT team, and add Bane, and then it isn't unreasonable to think of that squad as SIGNIFICANTLY improved on offense. He doesn't have to exert "true #1 type option impact" on their offense. They just need to be the team they were in 2024 and then have Bane's third-wheel offense boost on top of that, and they'll be in considerably better shape.

And yes, that sounds like a team which is a little better than the Clips or Rockets were last year, low/mid 50s in wins in an average season. East is weaker with a couple of teams down major players, so it's possible they might look a little better than that, though that's probably pushing it. They look like a second round or ECF team, though. Celtics won't be a 60+-win team and the Pacers aren't going to be a 50+-win team either, so there's a lot more wiggle room in the East. They look pretty clearly better that Detroit, Milwaukee, and really anyone but New York or Cleveland.

See I disagree.

I don’t think ORL is a lock to be better than LAC or HOU (the 24/25 versions).

They’re clearly not as good as NYK or CLE, and I honestly don’t think it is any guarantee they are better than MIL or PHI (health permitting) either.

Then there is still IND, TOR, ATL, etc. who IMO have just as good a chance as any of being just as good.

ORL screams 45-49 win team to me. Yet it feels like people are locking them into 50+.


If Paolo/Wagner play like they did last year, they’re not a top 3 lock. Obviously with internal improvements a lot can change.

Last year Banchero, Wagner and Suggs all played 46, 60 and 35 games respectively and they still had a 41 win team. The previous year the same core without KCP won 47 games and finished 5th in the East.

Paolo was a 26,7,5 player last year.
Franz was a 24,6, player last year.
Suggs was an all defensive team player in his last healthy season in 23/24.

Now add Bane who’s a 19,6 and 5 plus defensive player and Tyus Jones who’s a 10,5 as bench player and shoots above 40% from 3.

Assume none of those guys improve from last year, you don’t think they can win 5-10 more games than their 2023/2024 season from just the upgrade in offensive talent, better spacing, playmaking and relatively better health?

I’ll give you the Cavs and Knicks are better teams, but Cavs are heading into the season with guys coming off major injuries and I don’t think they’ll go all out to win 60 games. There aren’t 4 teams head and shoulders above the Magic and if we agree the Knicks and Cavs are better, the next closest team in terms of talent are the Hawks and they still have question marks. I expect to see a leap from the Magic like we’ve seen with other young teams.

[bobbyp3588]

If you want to discuss Orlando until you’re blue in the face, may I suggest you head over to the Magic board.
Rumour has it they actually give a F about the Magic.

[YogurtProducer]

Assume none of those guys improve from last year, you don’t think they can win 5-10 more games than their 2023/2024 season from just the upgrade in offensive talent, better spacing, playmaking and relatively better health?

I think they can, I am just not ready to say they are a top 3 50+ win lock.

Their 2023/24 season was on the other end of health. Paolo played 80, Franz 72, Suggs 75. If you wanna say 24/25 should have had more wins via health, you also gotta point to 23/24 and recognize how lucky they were health-wise that year. Realistically they are "likely" to be somewhere between 2023/24 and 24/25 in terms of health. (and, not to mention, career 32% shooter Suggs shot 40% from 3 that year which is likely not happening again).

Just for ease of conversation, I would say over the last two years they are "about" a 44 win team in a normal health year. I personally don't think Bane is a significant enough addition to lock them into to winning 6 more games to push them to 50 wins. ESPECIALLY, when Bane is the most injury prone player of the core that ORL has. It is almost a lock to say he will miss 15-25 games next season, or more, as he has missed a lot of time himself in the past 3 seasons.

That is not even getting started on Suggs injury history, or Mo Wagner coming back from season ending surgery who are both obviously very important pieces.

So we got a young, perpetually injured, team who has major shooting question marks still. I am not ready to lock that into the top 3 yet. Progress is not always linear. The 2022 - 2024 Raptors who won 48, 41, and then 25 games should bring enough pause to anyone who thinks just cause a core is young-ish that positive development is a guarantee.