Kawhi vs. Vince: Who’s the Bigger Raptors Legend?

[Grew]

I can see why people say vince because "legend" has to grow. We have had years to forgive vince, he just got his jersey retired, a court and logo designed from his iconic dunk contest. He was the first true raptor superstar, to many he put us on the map, to some he saved us from the fate of the vancouver grizzlies.

However what Kawhi did is the most legendary **** that has happened to this franchise. 30ppg Jordan-esq playoffs to lead us to a championship the league didn't want us to win. Some of the biggest moments in playoff history, that if they had happened in LA, Kawhi would be getting compared to Jordan and Lebron for GOAT status.

We are still taking Kawhi and that run for granted because he didn't stay. Kawhi f'd up his own legacy. I'm not going to let that taint the fact that was one of the greatest runs in sports history and truly the thing most deserving of legendary status in franchise history.

Carter is an acceptable answer. The championship wasn't just Kawhi. The real answer is the 2019 raps and the championship run. True Lengends, who will never get the full credit they deserve in this greedy bias league.

[Tor_Raps]

Sure but you realize that this team's best accomplishment for decades was winning one damn playoff series right? We were completely irrelevant other than that. Without Vince forcing Canadian media to step it up, not sure how much basketball would have blown up without his 3/4 years here.

Am I aware of the Raptors struggles for 20 years? Yes, I am. That includes the 7 years with Vince, other than 2 seasons of "success" which Masai immediately eclipsed. Demar and Lowry and guys like that, who were decidedly not as talented as Vince, used 47 wins as a low bar. That was Vince's peak.

Yes, youre looking at it retrospectively. Lowry is my GROAT for the reasons you mentioned but that doesnt mean I cant give props to a guy who was the best thing for this franchise prior to that.

It was a pathetic bar, which I agree, but those were our standards before Masai came on board.

[YogurtProducer]

One came up short in playoffs, stopped trying, and forced his way out. The other came in trade, won a title, and went home after a year. I vote Kawhi because he was serious about winning when he was here.

This.

Kawhi was filling stadiums in Regina, SK to watch a finals run. Basketball was irrelevant in most of Canada even during VC's peak.

[Kingsway_fan]

One came up short in playoffs, stopped trying, and forced his way out. The other came in trade, won a title, and went home after a year. I vote Kawhi because he was serious about winning when he was here.

This.

Kawhi was filling stadiums in Regina, SK to watch a finals run. Basketball was irrelevant in most of Canada even during VC's peak.

Stop posting ... you are clueless...

Warned: Personal Attack

[YogurtProducer]

One came up short in playoffs, stopped trying, and forced his way out. The other came in trade, won a title, and went home after a year. I vote Kawhi because he was serious about winning when he was here.

This.

Kawhi was filling stadiums in Regina, SK to watch a finals run. Basketball was irrelevant in most of Canada even during VC's peak.

Stop posting ... you are clueless...

Man, you really got to learn how to respond to people without being a douche

I grew up outside of the GTA. I knew how irrelevant basketball was back then in theseparts. You guys think it was bad in Toronto being overshadowed by the Leafs? The Raps barely even got shown as highlights on our local sports segments of the news or newspapers back then. In fact, it almost never did unless there was a crazy unbelievable highlight. You had to go out of your way to find any sort of basketball stuff, which is a big reason I even ended up here at RealGM anyways. And that was 2013, which was ten times better than VCs run anyways.

Kawhi changed ALL of that. There was legitimately thousands watching the Raptors finals runs in Mosaic Stadium in Regina. People who I had known for years who didn't give two **** about basketball, or know a damn thing about it at all, suddenly cared and were packing bars and what not to watch the game.

None of that happens without Kawhi. But go ahead, tell me I am clueless

You want me to really be serious? The We The North campaign had a greater impact on basketball popularity in Canada than VC did. The Raptors would have eventually had a successful team and got popular - with or without Carter - and the real catalyst was Lowry/Demar/Masai in 2014.

[CPT]

I mentioned it in my first post, but I think it’s a good test:

When you think of the Toronto Raptors, who do you think of first?

When you think of Vince Carter, which team do you think of first?

When you think of Kawhi Leonard, which team do you think of first?

Our answers may be a little bit different than the general public, and I’d buy the argument(s) that: 1) hardcore fans’ opinions should matter more than casuals/general NBA fans or 2) this is not the most important factor in determining who is a legend, but… does anyone really think the answers wouldn’t be Vince, Toronto, San Antonio?*

*maybe the Clippers if this becomes a bigger story

I think the test works in most cases, though I haven’t put it through the ringer.

[Vampirate]

Vince likely kept our franchise afloat in the darker days.

Kawhi actually made our franchise relevant and gave us real history.

My vote goes to Kawhi because prior to him i'd consider we were quite on the Hornets level of true overall relevancy.

[kalel123]

Vince Carter isn't exactly a legend himself. Whatever he gave, he took back during the years he winced and eventually quit his way outta here.

Whatever Kawhi did wrong was as unrestricted FA. When he had commitments to fulfill for us, he did it to the fullest. Yes, it benefitted him as well but it was mutually beneficial and it ended with the championship and that's the ultimate prize. The greatest memory personally as a Raptors fan from expansion years.

Vince Carter cheated us while under contract with Raptors. Kawhi Leonard didn't. That's the difference.

[Mikistan]

Vince Carter isn't exactly a legend himself. Whatever he gave, he took back during the years he winced and eventually quit his way outta here.

Whatever Kawhi did wrong was as unrestricted FA. When he had commitments to fulfill for us, he did it to the fullest. Yes, it benefitted him as well but it was mutually beneficial and it ended with the championship and that's the ultimate prize. The greatest memory personally as a Raptors fan from expansion years.

Vince Carter cheated us while under contract with Raptors. Kawhi Leonard didn't. That's the difference.

Carter missed his playoff, last second shot. Kawhi didn't... Lol

[CPT]

This.

Kawhi was filling stadiums in Regina, SK to watch a finals run. Basketball was irrelevant in most of Canada even during VC's peak.

Stop posting ... you are clueless...

Man, you really got to learn how to respond to people without being a douche

I grew up outside of the GTA. I knew how irrelevant basketball was back then in theseparts. You guys think it was bad in Toronto being overshadowed by the Leafs? The Raps barely even got shown as highlights on our local sports segments of the news or newspapers back then. In fact, it almost never did unless there was a crazy unbelievable highlight. You had to go out of your way to find any sort of basketball stuff, which is a big reason I even ended up here at RealGM anyways. And that was 2013, which was ten times better than VCs run anyways.

Kawhi changed ALL of that. There was legitimately thousands watching the Raptors finals runs in Mosaic Stadium in Regina. People who I had known for years who didn't give two **** about basketball, or know a damn thing about it at all, suddenly cared and were packing bars and what not to watch the game.

None of that happens without Kawhi. But go ahead, tell me I am clueless

You want me to really be serious? The We The North campaign had a greater impact on basketball popularity in Canada than VC did. The Raptors would have eventually had a successful team and got popular - with or without Carter - and the real catalyst was Lowry/Demar/Masai in 2014.

Everyone will have their own personal experiences, but I strongly disagree with the last section.

The good part of VC’s run blows the Lowry/DeRozan era out of the water in terms of interest and excitement.

The championship run is a different story, obviously, and if that’s the argument for Kawhi, it’s a good one, but outside of that season, it’s not close.

It may be a bit sad, but the 2000 dunk contest is the best moment in Raptors history outside of the championship run. For a good 2-3 year period, we had the most exciting player in the league. That’s not nothing.

One could also argue that some bandwagon fans in Regina shouldn’t be the deciding factor when talking about the team’s legacy.

[YogurtProducer]

Stop posting ... you are clueless...

Man, you really got to learn how to respond to people without being a douche

I grew up outside of the GTA. I knew how irrelevant basketball was back then in theseparts. You guys think it was bad in Toronto being overshadowed by the Leafs? The Raps barely even got shown as highlights on our local sports segments of the news or newspapers back then. In fact, it almost never did unless there was a crazy unbelievable highlight. You had to go out of your way to find any sort of basketball stuff, which is a big reason I even ended up here at RealGM anyways. And that was 2013, which was ten times better than VCs run anyways.

Kawhi changed ALL of that. There was legitimately thousands watching the Raptors finals runs in Mosaic Stadium in Regina. People who I had known for years who didn't give two **** about basketball, or know a damn thing about it at all, suddenly cared and were packing bars and what not to watch the game.

None of that happens without Kawhi. But go ahead, tell me I am clueless

You want me to really be serious? The We The North campaign had a greater impact on basketball popularity in Canada than VC did. The Raptors would have eventually had a successful team and got popular - with or without Carter - and the real catalyst was Lowry/Demar/Masai in 2014.

Everyone will have their own personal experiences, but I strongly disagree with the last section.

The good part of VC’s run blows the Lowry/DeRozan era out of the water in terms of interest and excitement.

The championship run is a different story, obviously, and if that’s the argument for Kawhi, it’s a good one, but outside of that season, it’s not close.

It may be a bit sad, but the 2000 dunk contest is the best moment in Raptors history outside of the championship run. For a good 2-3 year period, we had the most exciting player in the league. That’s not nothing.

One could also argue that some bandwagon fans in Regina shouldn’t be the deciding factor when talking about the team’s legacy.

Obviously I can only speak to my experience. Basketball in Saskatchewan was irrelevant even when VC was playing.

We The North is when I really remember anyone else paying attention to basketball, and Kawhi was the peak of that. It has died off now (here) to levels similar to 2014/15 or so I’d say.

But VCs legacy is a really great player, who won absolutely nothing except a dunk contest, who cried his way out of town.

Kawhi was a significantly better player, who played out his contract, won a **** championship, and then left when his deal expired.

Why are we prioritizing dunks and flash over substance?

[Slade3]

please change the poll to Micheller Carter versus Uncle Dennis

One asked for a private jet, a house and a stake in the Maple Leafs and the other asked for a parking spot...

[basketballto]

Achievement Legend: Kawhi

Cultural Legend: Carter

Emotional Legend: Carter

Franchise Legend: Carter

[mihaic]

Always see how vince made us "relevant" to support arguments for him being some sort of raptors legend

Let me ask you, how "relevant" was this franchise the year after Vince left compared to the year after Kawhi left?

Kawhi is the answer.

This means in fact only that we had a great team without Kawhi. And a weak support cast around Vince. Once Kawhi support cast left we became irrelevant too.

[Prestige]

As someone who grew up during the Vince years, it’s not even close. Those were days when the papers and media were dominated by hockey, and even baseball. VC turned the tide and grew the fanbase. He was must see tv. Opposing arenas would be packed.

Kawhi is in no way a legend. He was a mercenary who stayed for a year, was disconnected from the team and city/country, then immediately ran off despite winning. I don’t have him in my top 5 Raptors of all time.

[Tacoma]

Vince Carter isn't exactly a legend himself. Whatever he gave, he took back during the years he winced and eventually quit his way outta here.

Whatever Kawhi did wrong was as unrestricted FA. When he had commitments to fulfill for us, he did it to the fullest. Yes, it benefitted him as well but it was mutually beneficial and it ended with the championship and that's the ultimate prize. The greatest memory personally as a Raptors fan from expansion years.

Vince Carter cheated us while under contract with Raptors. Kawhi Leonard didn't. That's the difference.

Kawhi never wanted to be here to the point there were questions whether he’d even report here after the trade. Then the first chance he got to get out he swiftly left l, using Masai as leverage to get a better deal to LA. And now he is being investigated for cheating that dwarfs anything Vince allegedly did. These are very far from acts of a Raptors legend.

Yeah, Kawhi was instrumental to our champion but, as proven by his lack of success in LA, he needed us as much as we needed him.

As for Vince being criticized for his lack of team success, remember his best teammate was probably Antonio Davis. Kawhi had Lowry, Siakam, Gasol and others; Lowry and DeRozan had each other. The team around Vince were crap. This angle of criticism ignores the pathetic FO we had (Babcock et al) in those years.

[Dennis 37]

I still think it’s Vince. It’s that “who comes to mind when you think of the Toronto Raptors?” test - I still think most people would say Vince Carter (even if Lowry is our GROAT).

If we could only keep one player’s history, I’d keep Kawhi’s, but fortunately we don’t have to do that. For this reason, I totally get why some people would say Kawhi.

I’ll just go with the one of the two who embraces being a Raptors legend.

When I think of the players who come to mind, I think of players with integrity,, even if otherwise flawed. Charles Oakley, Demar DeRozen, Kyle Lowry, etc.

Neither Carter nor Kawhi have proved to be people of integrity.

[kalel123]

Vince Carter isn't exactly a legend himself. Whatever he gave, he took back during the years he winced and eventually quit his way outta here.

Whatever Kawhi did wrong was as unrestricted FA. When he had commitments to fulfill for us, he did it to the fullest. Yes, it benefitted him as well but it was mutually beneficial and it ended with the championship and that's the ultimate prize. The greatest memory personally as a Raptors fan from expansion years.

Vince Carter cheated us while under contract with Raptors. Kawhi Leonard didn't. That's the difference.

Kawhi never wanted to be here to the point there were questions whether he’d even report here after the trade. Then the first chance he got to get out he swiftly left l, using Masai as leverage to get a better deal to LA. And now he is being investigated for cheating that dwarfs anything Vince allegedly did. These are very far from acts of a Raptors legend.

Yeah, Kawhi was instrumental to our champion but, as proven by his lack of success in LA, he needed us as much as we needed him.

As for Vince being criticized for his lack of team success, remember his best teammate was probably Antonio Davis. Kawhi had Lowry, Siakam, Gasol and others; Lowry and DeRozan had each other. The team around Vince were crap. This angle of criticism ignores the pathetic FO we had (Babcock et al) in those years.

Everything negative Kawhi Leonard did, he did while not contractually part of the Raptors. As much as we celebrate Kyle Lowry as GROAT, as do I, we all know who drove that bus when going got tough in the playoffs.

Everything negative Vince Carter did was while he was still contractually obligated to the Raptors. I don't pick and choose my history. I look at it as a whole. He cheated on his commitment. For about as long as his earlier successes, which is why I say if anything's NET ZERO, it's Vince Carter. That is not a legend in my books. I don't really look at lack of team success as the reason. But how he conducted himself with lack of integrity just cause going got tough. It is what it is and that's his choice but that's nowhere near legendary. In terms of team success, it's more like he did all those BS then he better have the team success to not only offset but overcome that to become a legend and he doesn't. You know who does? Kawhi Leonard, even as short as his tenure was. And he wasn't even part of the Raptors (not really) when he did the things he's currently being accused of.

[Dennis 37]

Stop posting ... you are clueless...

Man, you really got to learn how to respond to people without being a douche

I grew up outside of the GTA. I knew how irrelevant basketball was back then in theseparts. You guys think it was bad in Toronto being overshadowed by the Leafs? The Raps barely even got shown as highlights on our local sports segments of the news or newspapers back then. In fact, it almost never did unless there was a crazy unbelievable highlight. You had to go out of your way to find any sort of basketball stuff, which is a big reason I even ended up here at RealGM anyways. And that was 2013, which was ten times better than VCs run anyways.

Kawhi changed ALL of that. There was legitimately thousands watching the Raptors finals runs in Mosaic Stadium in Regina. People who I had known for years who didn't give two **** about basketball, or know a damn thing about it at all, suddenly cared and were packing bars and what not to watch the game.

None of that happens without Kawhi. But go ahead, tell me I am clueless

You want me to really be serious? The We The North campaign had a greater impact on basketball popularity in Canada than VC did. The Raptors would have eventually had a successful team and got popular - with or without Carter - and the real catalyst was Lowry/Demar/Masai in 2014.

Everyone will have their own personal experiences, but I strongly disagree with the last section.

The good part of VC’s run blows the Lowry/DeRozan era out of the water in terms of interest and excitement.

The championship run is a different story, obviously, and if that’s the argument for Kawhi, it’s a good one, but outside of that season, it’s not close.

It may be a bit sad, but the 2000 dunk contest is the best moment in Raptors history outside of the championship run. For a good 2-3 year period, we had the most exciting player in the league. That’s not nothing.

One could also argue that some bandwagon fans in Regina shouldn’t be the deciding factor when talking about the team’s legacy.

Disagree. Carter was empty calories. He was never going to get us deep into the playoffs. In fact, when he went down, Keon Clarke was able to motivate that team into some really exciting moments. Holds the Raptors team record for blocks. 12 in one game. Lowry/DeRozan plus the bench mob were only slightly less interesting than the championship year.

[Johnny Bball]

After reading the news of the last week, can't say I have too much respect remaining for Leonard.