Kawhi vs. Vince: Who’s the Bigger Raptors Legend?

[ImmortalD24]

please change the poll to Micheller Carter versus Uncle Dennis

One asked for a private jet, a house and a stake in the Maple Leafs and the other asked for a parking spot...

Bingo.
It’s really quite alarming just how brainwashed these mid 00s sportsnet/tsn/ the score era fans have become. Not even in the same ballpark.

[ImmortalD24]

As someone who grew up during the Vince years, it’s not even close. Those were days when the papers and media were dominated by hockey, and even baseball. VC turned the tide and grew the fanbase. He was must see tv. Opposing arenas would be packed.

Kawhi is in no way a legend. He was a mercenary who stayed for a year, was disconnected from the team and city/country, then immediately ran off despite winning. I don’t have him in my top 5 Raptors of all time.

This man gets it.

Also for the people who haven’t been following the news outside of Realgm:

Read on Twitter

[CazOnReal]

Vince "The Legend" Carter:
-Only ever won one playoff series with the Raptors & was a mixed bag in the 76ers series - especially in game 7 where he played poorly + missed a potential game winner on a fairly clean shot
-Was swept in 2000 by the Knicks
-His team made the playoffs without him
-Won a Dunk Contest which, okay fair enough it's the most iconic Dunk Contest but it's also just a Dunk Contest
-Pushed for the Hakeem sign & trade which was by all accounts a mistake despite it being an overall fun fact
-Had two winning seasons in the weakest Eastern Conference era of the past 40 years (I'm not giving him credit for the 2002 turnaround where they barely eked out a 42-40 record) despite having decent supporting cast (Not great! But an okay supporting cast like Antonio Davis who had his best years in Toronto)
-Arguably didn't deserve his 2003 All-Star nod (He got it due to popularity but hadn't played many games & wasn't putting up the most impressive stats when he did leading up to the game)
-Had the GOAT "superstar making things ugly" bridge burning which to this day sullies his tenure in Toronto & was a point of contention for many regarding the announcement of his jersey retirement
-Wasn't even the reason the Raptors had a turnaround for ticket sales

Read on Twitter

I'm sorry but even if we ignore the FO's responsibility in the breakup (Something Vince to this day still refuses to do!), what did he ultimately accomplish in Toronto? Two All-NBA nods to go with his two sub-50 win seasons?

Some of that lack of success you can blame on the FO for never getting him a perennial All-Star teammate/failing to retain McGrady before he broke out (And it's an open question if Tracy would have done that with Vince as the lead on the team) or even losing Camby/Stoudamire before Carter arrived but as is, when you look back at his tenure, it was a lot of wasted potential and lack of success.

Kawhi had one year and yeah, it's bad timing right now to stand up for the Klaw given the recent news which in its own way taints his exit from mutual understanding i.e. can't blame a man for wanting to be closer to home vs. the seeming reality of "Kawhi wanted some insane demands met" but he did more winning in that one run than Vince did in 6 years. Put another way, Kawhi made "The Shot". Vince missed his and never really lived up to his potential even during what's arguably his best years in Toronto.

Frankly, i'd argue that one year was better than the best year of Vince's career as a Raptor if for no other reason than Vince's best offensive years were never the ones where he put in effort on defense.

And i'm taking Pascal Siakam as the bigger legend in comparison to Vince.

Siakam has the same number of All-NBA nods - same in each team in fact with 1 2nd & 1 3rd - was a Raptor longer than Vince was at roughly 8 years to Vince's 6, has more accolades between his MIP and being the Minutes Leader for a season, won more playoff games/series than Carter (The same amount of series but more games if you want to nitpick by not counting the Finals run where he was the 2A/2B as opposed to "The Guy" like Vince) & ended on, if not the best terms then at least more amiable terms with both fans and the FO. He's also Top 5 or higher in most of the all-time leaderboards (Scoring, rebounding, even assists where he's exactly 5th!) despite him starting off without the keys to the franchise like Vince did. Both narratively as one of the bench mob who worked his way into becoming a star and success-wise, Siakam did a lot more with a lot less in one of the more competitive eras for both the NBA and the Eastern Conference.

[ImmortalD24]

Watch on YouTube

Kawhi coming to Toronto was best thing ever happened to Raptors.
Kawhi leaving Toronto was best thing ever happened to Raptors.

This.

[TheFutureMM]

Not surprised about the poll results but to me it's clearly Kawhi and it's not close. One guy brought attention to the Raptors - the other guy brought us a championship. We could never win another chip as long as I live and I'd still be satisfied because of 2019.

[YogurtProducer]

After reading the news of the last week, can't say I have too much respect remaining for Leonard.

Yeah the news lately is souring me on him a lot. I still had respect even after he left since he simply played out his contract, but even that is fading now.

But Carter also forced his way out of town which is even lower than what Kawhi did.

[Johnny Bball]

After reading the news of the last week, can't say I have too much respect remaining for Leonard.

Yeah the news lately is souring me on him a lot. I still had respect even after he left since he simply played out his contract, but even that is fading now.

But Carter also forced his way out of town which is even lower than what Kawhi did.

I think they had me at "parking spot" in this decision.

[OakleyDokely]

Kawhi is the greatest player I've ever seen in a Raptors uniform. His impact was unmatched. He also played hard and injured when he could've mailed it in during a contract year. The Clippers and others would've maxed him regardless.

The whole contract situation is/was pretty deplorable, but ultimately, he was the key factor in a title, and that is much more important to me than making outrageous requests during a contract negotiation.

[DreamTeam09]

Vince "The Legend" Carter:
-Only ever won one playoff series with the Raptors & was a mixed bag in the 76ers series - especially in game 7 where he played poorly + missed a potential game winner on a fairly clean shot
-Was swept in 2000 by the Knicks
-His team made the playoffs without him
-Won a Dunk Contest which, okay fair enough it's the most iconic Dunk Contest but it's also just a Dunk Contest
-Pushed for the Hakeem sign & trade which was by all accounts a mistake despite it being an overall fun fact
-Had two winning seasons in the weakest Eastern Conference era of the past 40 years (I'm not giving him credit for the 2002 turnaround where they barely eked out a 42-40 record) despite having decent supporting cast (Not great! But an okay supporting cast like Antonio Davis who had his best years in Toronto)
-Arguably didn't deserve his 2003 All-Star nod (He got it due to popularity but hadn't played many games & wasn't putting up the most impressive stats when he did leading up to the game)
-Had the GOAT "superstar making things ugly" bridge burning which to this day sullies his tenure in Toronto & was a point of contention for many regarding the announcement of his jersey retirement
-Wasn't even the reason the Raptors had a turnaround for ticket sales

Read on Twitter

I'm sorry but even if we ignore the FO's responsibility in the breakup (Something Vince to this day still refuses to do!), what did he ultimately accomplish in Toronto? Two All-NBA nods to go with his two sub-50 win seasons?

Some of that lack of success you can blame on the FO for never getting him a perennial All-Star teammate/failing to retain McGrady before he broke out (And it's an open question if Tracy would have done that with Vince as the lead on the team) or even losing Camby/Stoudamire before Carter arrived but as is, when you look back at his tenure, it was a lot of wasted potential and lack of success.

Kawhi had one year and yeah, it's bad timing right now to stand up for the Klaw given the recent news which in its own way taints his exit from mutual understanding i.e. can't blame a man for wanting to be closer to home vs. the seeming reality of "Kawhi wanted some insane demands met" but he did more winning in that one run than Vince did in 6 years. Put another way, Kawhi made "The Shot". Vince missed his and never really lived up to his potential even during what's arguably his best years in Toronto.

Frankly, i'd argue that one year was better than the best year of Vince's career as a Raptor if for no other reason than Vince's best offensive years were never the ones where he put in effort on defense.

And i'm taking Pascal Siakam as the bigger legend in comparison to Vince.

Siakam has the same number of All-NBA nods - same in each team in fact with 1 2nd & 1 3rd - was a Raptor longer than Vince was at roughly 8 years to Vince's 6, has more accolades between his MIP and being the Minutes Leader for a season, won more playoff games/series than Carter (The same amount of series but more games if you want to nitpick by not counting the Finals run where he was the 2A/2B as opposed to "The Guy" like Vince) & ended on, if not the best terms then at least more amiable terms with both fans and the FO. He's also Top 5 or higher in most of the all-time leaderboards (Scoring, rebounding, even assists where he's exactly 5th!) despite him starting off without the keys to the franchise like Vince did. Both narratively as one of the bench mob who worked his way into becoming a star and success-wise, Siakam did a lot more with a lot less in one of the more competitive eras for both the NBA and the Eastern Conference.

He ingratiated an entire generation of youth throughout Canada to the sport of basketball and the Toronto Raptors. "I wanna be like mike" well kids in Toronto/Canada "Wanted to be like Vince" If you don't wanna believe me, you can look up the Quotes by several team Canada members who echoed those same sentiments

[YogurtProducer]

Vince "The Legend" Carter:
-Only ever won one playoff series with the Raptors & was a mixed bag in the 76ers series - especially in game 7 where he played poorly + missed a potential game winner on a fairly clean shot
-Was swept in 2000 by the Knicks
-His team made the playoffs without him
-Won a Dunk Contest which, okay fair enough it's the most iconic Dunk Contest but it's also just a Dunk Contest
-Pushed for the Hakeem sign & trade which was by all accounts a mistake despite it being an overall fun fact
-Had two winning seasons in the weakest Eastern Conference era of the past 40 years (I'm not giving him credit for the 2002 turnaround where they barely eked out a 42-40 record) despite having decent supporting cast (Not great! But an okay supporting cast like Antonio Davis who had his best years in Toronto)
-Arguably didn't deserve his 2003 All-Star nod (He got it due to popularity but hadn't played many games & wasn't putting up the most impressive stats when he did leading up to the game)
-Had the GOAT "superstar making things ugly" bridge burning which to this day sullies his tenure in Toronto & was a point of contention for many regarding the announcement of his jersey retirement
-Wasn't even the reason the Raptors had a turnaround for ticket sales

Read on Twitter

I'm sorry but even if we ignore the FO's responsibility in the breakup (Something Vince to this day still refuses to do!), what did he ultimately accomplish in Toronto? Two All-NBA nods to go with his two sub-50 win seasons?

Some of that lack of success you can blame on the FO for never getting him a perennial All-Star teammate/failing to retain McGrady before he broke out (And it's an open question if Tracy would have done that with Vince as the lead on the team) or even losing Camby/Stoudamire before Carter arrived but as is, when you look back at his tenure, it was a lot of wasted potential and lack of success.

Kawhi had one year and yeah, it's bad timing right now to stand up for the Klaw given the recent news which in its own way taints his exit from mutual understanding i.e. can't blame a man for wanting to be closer to home vs. the seeming reality of "Kawhi wanted some insane demands met" but he did more winning in that one run than Vince did in 6 years. Put another way, Kawhi made "The Shot". Vince missed his and never really lived up to his potential even during what's arguably his best years in Toronto.

Frankly, i'd argue that one year was better than the best year of Vince's career as a Raptor if for no other reason than Vince's best offensive years were never the ones where he put in effort on defense.

And i'm taking Pascal Siakam as the bigger legend in comparison to Vince.

Siakam has the same number of All-NBA nods - same in each team in fact with 1 2nd & 1 3rd - was a Raptor longer than Vince was at roughly 8 years to Vince's 6, has more accolades between his MIP and being the Minutes Leader for a season, won more playoff games/series than Carter (The same amount of series but more games if you want to nitpick by not counting the Finals run where he was the 2A/2B as opposed to "The Guy" like Vince) & ended on, if not the best terms then at least more amiable terms with both fans and the FO. He's also Top 5 or higher in most of the all-time leaderboards (Scoring, rebounding, even assists where he's exactly 5th!) despite him starting off without the keys to the franchise like Vince did. Both narratively as one of the bench mob who worked his way into becoming a star and success-wise, Siakam did a lot more with a lot less in one of the more competitive eras for both the NBA and the Eastern Conference.

He ingratiated an entire generation of youth throughout Canada to the sport of basketball and the Toronto Raptors. "I wanna be like mike" well kids in Toronto/Canada "Wanted to be like Vince" If you don't wanna believe me, you can look up the Quotes by several team Canada members who echoed those same sentiments

And in 5-10 years there will be kids entering the league who will bring up Kawhi + the 2019 championship.

[720]

Kawhi for me.

[DreamTeam09]

Vince "The Legend" Carter:
-Only ever won one playoff series with the Raptors & was a mixed bag in the 76ers series - especially in game 7 where he played poorly + missed a potential game winner on a fairly clean shot
-Was swept in 2000 by the Knicks
-His team made the playoffs without him
-Won a Dunk Contest which, okay fair enough it's the most iconic Dunk Contest but it's also just a Dunk Contest
-Pushed for the Hakeem sign & trade which was by all accounts a mistake despite it being an overall fun fact
-Had two winning seasons in the weakest Eastern Conference era of the past 40 years (I'm not giving him credit for the 2002 turnaround where they barely eked out a 42-40 record) despite having decent supporting cast (Not great! But an okay supporting cast like Antonio Davis who had his best years in Toronto)
-Arguably didn't deserve his 2003 All-Star nod (He got it due to popularity but hadn't played many games & wasn't putting up the most impressive stats when he did leading up to the game)
-Had the GOAT "superstar making things ugly" bridge burning which to this day sullies his tenure in Toronto & was a point of contention for many regarding the announcement of his jersey retirement
-Wasn't even the reason the Raptors had a turnaround for ticket sales

Read on Twitter

I'm sorry but even if we ignore the FO's responsibility in the breakup (Something Vince to this day still refuses to do!), what did he ultimately accomplish in Toronto? Two All-NBA nods to go with his two sub-50 win seasons?

Some of that lack of success you can blame on the FO for never getting him a perennial All-Star teammate/failing to retain McGrady before he broke out (And it's an open question if Tracy would have done that with Vince as the lead on the team) or even losing Camby/Stoudamire before Carter arrived but as is, when you look back at his tenure, it was a lot of wasted potential and lack of success.

Kawhi had one year and yeah, it's bad timing right now to stand up for the Klaw given the recent news which in its own way taints his exit from mutual understanding i.e. can't blame a man for wanting to be closer to home vs. the seeming reality of "Kawhi wanted some insane demands met" but he did more winning in that one run than Vince did in 6 years. Put another way, Kawhi made "The Shot". Vince missed his and never really lived up to his potential even during what's arguably his best years in Toronto.

Frankly, i'd argue that one year was better than the best year of Vince's career as a Raptor if for no other reason than Vince's best offensive years were never the ones where he put in effort on defense.

And i'm taking Pascal Siakam as the bigger legend in comparison to Vince.

Siakam has the same number of All-NBA nods - same in each team in fact with 1 2nd & 1 3rd - was a Raptor longer than Vince was at roughly 8 years to Vince's 6, has more accolades between his MIP and being the Minutes Leader for a season, won more playoff games/series than Carter (The same amount of series but more games if you want to nitpick by not counting the Finals run where he was the 2A/2B as opposed to "The Guy" like Vince) & ended on, if not the best terms then at least more amiable terms with both fans and the FO. He's also Top 5 or higher in most of the all-time leaderboards (Scoring, rebounding, even assists where he's exactly 5th!) despite him starting off without the keys to the franchise like Vince did. Both narratively as one of the bench mob who worked his way into becoming a star and success-wise, Siakam did a lot more with a lot less in one of the more competitive eras for both the NBA and the Eastern Conference.

He ingratiated an entire generation of youth throughout Canada to the sport of basketball and the Toronto Raptors. "I wanna be like mike" well kids in Toronto/Canada "Wanted to be like Vince" If you don't wanna believe me, you can look up the Quotes by several team Canada members who echoed those same sentiments

And in 5-10 years there will be kids entering the league who will bring up Kawhi + the 2019 championship.

I absolutely 1000% disagree. Yes I am sure the Raptors Championship will have some ripple effects on engagement/participation/viability/ect,ect,ect, I highly doubt in 5-10 yrs youth/young NBAers will be propping up Kawhi Leonard as some foundational piece to Raptors lore, definitely not to the extent Vince had

[YogurtProducer]

He ingratiated an entire generation of youth throughout Canada to the sport of basketball and the Toronto Raptors. "I wanna be like mike" well kids in Toronto/Canada "Wanted to be like Vince" If you don't wanna believe me, you can look up the Quotes by several team Canada members who echoed those same sentiments

And in 5-10 years there will be kids entering the league who will bring up Kawhi + the 2019 championship.

I absolutely 1000% disagree. Yes I am sure the Raptors Championship will have some ripple effects on engagement/participation/viability/ect,ect,ect, I highly doubt in 5-10 yrs youth/young NBAers will be propping up Kawhi Leonard as some foundational piece to Raptors lore, definitely not to the extent Vince had

I think you are entirely off-base there, then. The Raptors Game 6 was the most watched game in NBA history. https://www.tsn.ca/record-7-7m-viewers-watch-toronto-raptors-win-title-on-tsn-ctv-rds-1.1322693 We had people tuning in that didn't give a crap about basketball and what will they remember? That great player named Kawhi Leonard.

Stuff like The Shot against Philly is arguably the most iconic single play in Raptors history. It is going to be playing on top 10 SportsCenter lists for eternity.

100% we are going to see people enter the league talking about they remember being 10 or 11 years old watching Kawhi hit The Shot, and win the title. Absolutely crazy to me to suggest that something as big as winning the title and being the best player on said team WONT be a foundation piece to Raptors lore


The 2019 Raptors finals run was the single biggest event in Canada Basketball history. Bigger than Vince. It is important to remember... Vince Carter and the Raptors were not a huge phenom outside of Ontario and serious basketball circles (in Canada). The fact of the matter is more people in Canada still cared more about what the NHL lockout was doing, than what Vince was. Like, I cannot exclaim how little anyone cared about basketball here in the early 2000s. The entire country was watching Kawhi, though.

[DreamTeam09]

And in 5-10 years there will be kids entering the league who will bring up Kawhi + the 2019 championship.

I absolutely 1000% disagree. Yes I am sure the Raptors Championship will have some ripple effects on engagement/participation/viability/ect,ect,ect, I highly doubt in 5-10 yrs youth/young NBAers will be propping up Kawhi Leonard as some foundational piece to Raptors lore, definitely not to the extent Vince had

I think you are entirely off-base there, then. The Raptors Game 6 was the most watched game in NBA history. https://www.tsn.ca/record-7-7m-viewers-watch-toronto-raptors-win-title-on-tsn-ctv-rds-1.1322693 We had people tuning in that didn't give a crap about basketball and what will they remember? That great player named Kawhi Leonard.

Stuff like The Shot against Philly is arguably the most iconic single play in Raptors history. It is going to be playing on top 10 SportsCenter lists for eternity.

100% we are going to see people enter the league talking about they remember being 10 or 11 years old watching Kawhi hit The Shot, and win the title. Absolutely crazy to me to suggest that something as big as winning the title and being the best player on said team WONT be a foundation piece to Raptors lore


The 2019 Raptors finals run was the single biggest event in Canada Basketball history. Bigger than Vince. It is important to remember... Vince Carter and the Raptors were not a huge phenom outside of Ontario and serious basketball circles (in Canada). The fact of the matter is more people in Canada still cared more about what the NHL lockout was doing, than what Vince was.[b] Like, I cannot exclaim how little anyone cared about basketball here in the early 2000s. The entire country was watching Kawhi, though.[/b]

like you can say that, doesn't make it true in the least bit. Glad you posted the facts about the game 6 tho but still,
Kelly O(BC)
Chris Boucher (MTL)
Lu Dort (MTL)
Khem Birch (MTL)
Omax(MTL)
Ben Mat(MTL)
and many more will all tell you themselves, and quite a few already have said, "Vince impacted the growth of Basketball in Canada) So no, other regions in Canada did infact support the Raptors outside of Toronto, ESPECIALLY in the early 2000s, a time where the MAJORITY of current NBA CANADIAN players grew up...

The RAPTORS championship will definitely leave a lasting effect on basketball at a grassroot level and beyond, it's already being brought to fruition. I still doubt those same ppl will have some sorta love attachment to the 1yr mercenary of Kawhi leonard. If he was here for more than 1yr then I could see how your point would stand, but when ppl bring up Kawhi now interms of Toronto, the first or 2nd thing thats brought up is "only if he stayed, we would've went b2b" He's talked about as mercenary, not someone engraved in Raptors lore. Lowry/Vince/Demar will all have their jerseys retired before Kawhi, Kawhi is closer to Bosh then he is closer to those 3 in terms of Raptors lore. Heck, that kwahi pose with him kneeling might even be a statue one day & he still didn't impact the Raptors like those 3 did. S/o to Kawhi, but winning a championship isn't the end all be all interms of ingratiating into a fanbase & community.

[YogurtProducer]

s/o to Kawhi, but winning a championship isn't the end all be all interms of ingratiating into a fanbase & community.

Lol.

But being a career loser who abandoned to franchise like Carter, is.

Got it.

Kelly O(BC)
Chris Boucher (MTL)
Lu Dort (MTL)
Khem Birch (MTL)
Omax(MTL)
Ben Mat(MTL)

Nice try to put BC in there, like Olynyk didn't grow up in Toronto

Or throwing in Chris Boucher, who started playing basketball when he was 19.. years after Carter left Toronto

Hell, Dort was like 5 when Carter got traded. Mathurin was 2

The only guys you can really look at and say "Carter had a direct impact on" would be like Cory Jo, Thompson, Olynyk, Powell, generation, who were all the right age to actually watch Carter at his peak.

[DreamTeam09]

s/o to Kawhi, but winning a championship isn't the end all be all interms of ingratiating into a fanbase & community.

Lol.

But being a career loser who abandoned to franchise like Carter, is.

Got it.

Kelly O(BC)
Chris Boucher (MTL)
Lu Dort (MTL)
Khem Birch (MTL)
Omax(MTL)
Ben Mat(MTL)

Nice try to put BC in there, like Olynyk didn't grow up in Toronto

Or throwing in Chris Boucher, who started playing basketball when he was 19.. years after Carter left Toronto

Hell, Dort was like 5 when Carter got traded. Mathurin was 2

The only guys you can really look at and say "Carter had a direct impact on" would be like Cory Jo, Thompson, Olynyk, Powell, generation, who were all the right age to actually watch Carter at his peak.

none of those guys are gotcha moments that I intended on. Boucher started playing basketball at 19, you don't think he saw or remembered Vince Carter?
Kelly did grow up in Toronto but he moved to BC as an adolescent according to google
As for the others, YouTube and family members still exist, I started to watch basketball in 93 but I can still tell you a lot about players I didn't see personally, I remember screaming Magic when I would make a fancy pass n what not, ppl would yell Larry or Bird after hitting a 3 and those guys were a little before my time

Either way you yourself mentioned the players who were impacted by Vince, again all those players mentioned & listed echoed those sentiments, they aren't just mine

[deck]

Legend in two games like I'm Pee Wee Kirkland

[NinjaBro]

NBA slam dunk champion Mac McClung has accomplished more and a bigger NBA legend than Vince Carter.

[CazOnReal]

He ingratiated an entire generation of youth throughout Canada to the sport of basketball and the Toronto Raptors. "I wanna be like mike" well kids in Toronto/Canada "Wanted to be like Vince" If you don't wanna believe me, you can look up the Quotes by several team Canada members who echoed those same sentiments

All this says to me is that the children are casuals.

[CPT]

May I be so bold as to reframe the discussion as follows?

Bigger Toronto legend? Vince.

Bigger Raptors legend? Kawhi.

(This is very dumb, but I also think it’s kind of correct)