Player | end szn | off | def | rapm |
Kevin Garnett | 2009 | 3.9 | 6.8 | 10.6 |
Lebron James | 2012 | 6.6 | 4 | 10.5 |
Lebron James | 2010 | 6.8 | 3.3 | 10.2 |
Nikola Jokic | 2025 | 8.4 | 1.7 | 10.1 |
Lebron James | 2011 | 6.4 | 3.4 | 9.8 |
Kevin Garnett | 2010 | 3.6 | 6.2 | 9.8 |
Lebron James | 2017 | 7.8 | 1.9 | 9.7 |
Lebron James | 2016 | 7.3 | 2.4 | 9.7 |
Stephen Curry | 2018 | 8.6 | 0.5 | 9.2 |
Lebron James | 2015 | 7.1 | 2 | 9.1 |
Chris Paul | 2018 | 6.4 | 2.7 | 9.1 |
Kevin Garnett | 2006 | 5.5 | 3.4 | 9 |
Stephen Curry | 2020 | 8.3 | 0.7 | 9 |
Lebron James | 2013 | 6.2 | 2.7 | 8.9 |
Lebron James | 2009 | 6.3 | 2.6 | 8.9 |
Kawhi Leonard | 2023 | 6.7 | 2.1 | 8.9 |
Kevin Garnett | 2005 | 5.2 | 3.7 | 8.9 |
Stephen Curry | 2019 | 8.3 | 0.6 | 8.9 |
Tim Duncan | 2005 | 3.8 | 5.1 | 8.9 |
Chris Paul | 2017 | 5.2 | 3.6 | 8.8 |
Steve Nash | 2008 | 9.3 | -0.6 | 8.8 |
Chris Paul | 2016 | 5.7 | 2.9 | 8.6 |
Kevin Garnett | 2004 | 5 | 3.7 | 8.6 |
Lebron James | 2020 | 6.7 | 1.7 | 8.4 |
Kevin Garnett | 2011 | 1.7 | 6.7 | 8.4 |
Lebron James | 2018 | 7.7 | 0.5 | 8.3 |
Kevin Garnett | 2008 | 3.5 | 4.7 | 8.2 |
Tim Duncan | 2003 | 3.9 | 4.3 | 8.2 |
Steve Nash | 2010 | 8.9 | -0.8 | 8.1 |
Manu Ginobili | 2008 | 5.3 | 2.6 | 7.9 |
Nikola Jokic | 2024 | 6.8 | 1.2 | 7.9 |
Stephen Curry | 2017 | 8 | -0.1 | 7.9 |
Tim Duncan | 2006 | 3.6 | 4.3 | 7.9 |
Tim Duncan | 2004 | 3.3 | 4.7 | 7.9 |
Kawhi Leonard | 2018 | 4.8 | 3 | 7.8 |
Paul George | 2022 | 3.5 | 4.3 | 7.8 |
Shaquille O'Neal | 2004 | 7.2 | 0.6 | 7.8 |
Joel Embiid | 2024 | 4.7 | 3 | 7.7 |
Lebron James | 2019 | 6.9 | 0.7 | 7.6 |
Chris Paul | 2019 | 4.4 | 3.2 | 7.6 |
Dirk Nowitzki | 2004 | 6.4 | 1.2 | 7.6 |
Steve Nash | 2009 | 8.6 | -0.9 | 7.6 |
Tim Duncan | 2007 | 3.8 | 3.9 | 7.6 |
Manu Ginobili | 2014 | 5.2 | 2.3 | 7.5 |
Shaquille O'Neal | 2005 | 6.1 | 1.4 | 7.5 |
Stephen Curry | 2022 | 5.7 | 1.8 | 7.5 |
Dirk Nowitzki | 2014 | 5.7 | 1.7 | 7.4 |
Manu Ginobili | 2007 | 5.6 | 1.8 | 7.4 |
Shaquille O'Neal | 2000 | 5.4 | 2 | 7.4 |
Giannis Antetokounmpo | 2022 | 2.6 | 4.7 | 7.3 |
Paul George | 2024 | 4.4 | 2.9 | 7.3 |
Shaquille O'Neal | 2003 | 7.6 | -0.2 | 7.3 |
Tim Duncan | 2008 | 4.3 | 3 | 7.3 |
Kevin Garnett | 2012 | 1.4 | 5.8 | 7.2 |
Lebron James | 2021 | 5.4 | 1.7 | 7.1 |
Chris Paul | 2020 | 4.3 | 2.7 | 7 |
Joel Embiid | 2019 | 3.1 | 3.8 | 7 |
Kevin Garnett | 2003 | 4.4 | 2.6 | 7 |
Shaquille O'Neal | 2001 | 6.7 | 0.3 | 7 |
Manu Ginobili | 2006 | 4.8 | 2 | 6.9 |
Kawhi Leonard | 2017 | 4.1 | 2.8 | 6.9 |
Steve Nash | 2011 | 7.2 | -0.4 | 6.9 |
Paul George | 2021 | 3.5 | 3.3 | 6.9 |
Stephen Curry | 2015 | 6.3 | 0.6 | 6.9 |
Lebron James | 2022 | 4.8 | 2 | 6.8 |
Chris Paul | 2015 | 4.8 | 2 | 6.8 |
Dirk Nowitzki | 2011 | 5.1 | 1.7 | 6.8 |
Stephen Curry | 2016 | 6.7 | 0.1 | 6.8 |
Jayson Tatum | 2023 | 4.9 | 1.9 | 6.8 |
Dwyane Wade | 2009 | 6.1 | 0.7 | 6.8 |
Chris Paul | 2014 | 4.9 | 1.7 | 6.7 |
Dirk Nowitzki | 2006 | 5.5 | 1.2 | 6.7 |
Giannis Antetokounmpo | 2023 | 2.9 | 3.9 | 6.7 |
Kawhi Leonard | 2024 | 5.1 | 1.5 | 6.7 |
Lebron James | 2008 | 4.9 | 1.6 | 6.6 |
Chris Paul | 2021 | 3.6 | 3 | 6.6 |
Dirk Nowitzki | 2013 | 4.7 | 1.8 | 6.6 |
Kevin Garnett | 2007 | 3.8 | 2.8 | 6.6 |
Chris Paul | 2011 | 5.5 | 1 | 6.5 |
Joel Embiid | 2021 | 2.3 | 4.2 | 6.5 |
Joel Embiid | 2020 | 1.8 | 4.6 | 6.5 |
Nikola Jokic | 2023 | 5.8 | 0.7 | 6.5 |
Nikola Jokic | 2018 | 5.1 | 1.4 | 6.5 |
Kevin Durant | 2022 | 5 | 1.5 | 6.5 |
Kevin Durant | 2016 | 5.1 | 1.4 | 6.5 |
Tim Duncan | 2002 | 2.6 | 3.9 | 6.5 |
Tim Duncan | 2001 | 3.1 | 3.4 | 6.5 |
Lebron James | 2023 | 4.9 | 1.5 | 6.4 |
James Harden | 2018 | 6.8 | -0.4 | 6.4 |
Kevin Garnett | 2013 | 0.2 | 6.2 | 6.4 |
Dirk Nowitzki | 2005 | 5.4 | 0.9 | 6.3 |
Joel Embiid | 2022 | 2.9 | 3.5 | 6.3 |
Giannis Antetokounmpo | 2021 | 1.4 | 5 | 6.3 |
Giannis Antetokounmpo | 2020 | 1.8 | 4.5 | 6.3 |
Nikola Jokic | 2019 | 4.5 | 1.8 | 6.3 |
Steve Nash | 2007 | 7.7 | -1.4 | 6.3 |
Shaquille O'Neal | 2002 | 6.5 | -0.2 | 6.3 |
Stephen Curry | 2021 | 6.3 | 0.1 | 6.3 |
Jayson Tatum | 2022 | 3.7 | 2.7 | 6.3 |
Dwyane Wade | 2010 | 6.3 | 0 | 6.3 |
Lebron James | 2014 | 5.3 | 0.9 | 6.2 |
Manu Ginobili | 2009 | 4.2 | 1.9 | 6.2 |
Manu Ginobili | 2005 | 3.9 | 2.3 | 6.2 |
James Harden | 2017 | 6.4 | -0.2 | 6.2 |
Jimmy Butler | 2020 | 3.1 | 3 | 6.1 |
Dirk Nowitzki | 2007 | 5.4 | 0.7 | 6.1 |
Giannis Antetokounmpo | 2025 | 3.8 | 2.3 | 6.1 |
Kawhi Leonard | 2022 | 5.3 | 0.8 | 6.1 |
Dirk Nowitzki | 2012 | 4.6 | 1.4 | 6 |
Giannis Antetokounmpo | 2024 | 3.1 | 2.9 | 6 |
Kevin Durant | 2021 | 5.6 | 0.4 | 6 |
Paul George | 2020 | 3 | 3 | 6 |
Shaquille O'Neal | 2006 | 5.2 | 0.7 | 6 |
Dwyane Wade | 2012 | 6 | 0 | 6 |
Manu Ginobili | 2011 | 4 | 1.9 | 5.9 |
Kawhi Leonard | 2019 | 4.3 | 1.6 | 5.9 |
Kevin Durant | 2017 | 4.9 | 1 | 5.9 |
Jason Kidd | 2005 | 4.3 | 1.5 | 5.9 |
Chris Paul | 2012 | 4.4 | 1.3 | 5.8 |
Manu Ginobili | 2015 | 3.8 | 2 | 5.8 |
Rudy Gobert | 2022 | 1.1 | 4.7 | 5.8 |
Nikola Jokic | 2020 | 5.2 | 0.6 | 5.8 |
Kawhi Leonard | 2020 | 4.7 | 1.1 | 5.8 |
Steve Nash | 2012 | 6.1 | -0.3 | 5.8 |
Jimmy Butler | 2021 | 3.4 | 2.4 | 5.7 |
Dirk Nowitzki | 2003 | 4.9 | 0.8 | 5.7 |
Manu Ginobili | 2016 | 2.5 | 3.2 | 5.7 |
Manu Ginobili | 2013 | 4.7 | 1 | 5.7 |
James Harden | 2012 | 4.8 | 0.8 | 5.7 |
Nikola Jokic | 2017 | 4.4 | 1.3 | 5.7 |
Kawhi Leonard | 2025 | 4 | 1.7 | 5.7 |
Kobe Bryant | 2008 | 6.2 | -0.5 | 5.7 |
Paul Pierce | 2008 | 5.1 | 0.7 | 5.7 |
Stephen Curry | 2023 | 5 | 0.7 | 5.7 |
Dirk Nowitzki | 2008 | 5.3 | 0.3 | 5.6 |
Manu Ginobili | 2017 | 2.9 | 2.7 | 5.6 |
Kobe Bryant | 2009 | 6.1 | -0.4 | 5.6 |
Paul George | 2023 | 2.7 | 2.9 | 5.6 |
Paul Pierce | 2005 | 4.5 | 1.2 | 5.6 |
Jayson Tatum | 2021 | 2.9 | 2.6 | 5.6 |
Lebron James | 2024 | 4.3 | 1.2 | 5.5 |
Chris Paul | 2022 | 2 | 3.5 | 5.5 |
Chris Paul | 2013 | 4.7 | 0.8 | 5.5 |
Manu Ginobili | 2010 | 3.4 | 2.1 | 5.5 |
Kevin Durant | 2023 | 3.9 | 1.6 | 5.5 |
Russell Westbrook | 2017 | 6.1 | -0.5 | 5.5 |
Joel Embiid | 2023 | 2.7 | 2.7 | 5.4 |
Rudy Gobert | 2021 | 0.9 | 4.5 | 5.4 |
Kawhi Leonard | 2021 | 4.1 | 1.3 | 5.4 |
Kobe Bryant | 2010 | 5.1 | 0.3 | 5.4 |
Jimmy Butler | 2019 | 1.9 | 3.4 | 5.3 |
Dwight Howard | 2011 | 2.7 | 2.6 | 5.3 |
Kawhi Leonard | 2016 | 1.4 | 3.8 | 5.3 |
Kevin Garnett | 2000 | 3 | 2.3 | 5.3 |
Russell Westbrook | 2016 | 5.4 | -0.1 | 5.3 |
Jimmy Butler | 2018 | 2.4 | 2.8 | 5.2 |
Dirk Nowitzki | 2009 | 5.2 | 0 | 5.2 |
Manu Ginobili | 2012 | 4.8 | 0.4 | 5.2 |
Rudy Gobert | 2019 | 1.1 | 4.2 | 5.2 |
Nikola Jokic | 2022 | 4.8 | 0.4 | 5.2 |
Jayson Tatum | 2024 | 4.4 | 0.8 | 5.2 |
James Harden | 2019 | 5.5 | -0.4 | 5.1 |
Jason Kidd | 2007 | 4.2 | 0.9 | 5.1 |
Kobe Bryant | 2007 | 5.6 | -0.5 | 5.1 |
Tim Duncan | 2010 | 2.4 | 2.7 | 5.1 |
Dwyane Wade | 2011 | 5.6 | -0.4 | 5.1 |
Lebron James | 2007 | 3.6 | 1.3 | 5 |
Tim Duncan | 2009 | 3.1 | 1.9 | 5 |
Ray Allen | 2004 | 5.4 | -0.5 | 4.9 |
Rudy Gobert | 2020 | 0.9 | 4 | 4.9 |
Kevin Durant | 2024 | 3.8 | 1.2 | 4.9 |
Kevin Durant | 2019 | 5 | -0.1 | 4.9 |
Kevin Durant | 2013 | 3.3 | 1.5 | 4.9 |
Kevin Garnett | 2014 | -0.5 | 5.5 | 4.9 |
Shaquille O'Neal | 2007 | 4.1 | 0.9 | 4.9 |
Jayson Tatum | 2020 | 2.2 | 2.7 | 4.9 |
Russell Westbrook | 2015 | 5 | -0.1 | 4.9 |
Rudy Gobert | 2024 | 0.2 | 4.6 | 4.8 |
James Harden | 2020 | 5.5 | -0.7 | 4.8 |
Paul George | 2019 | 2.1 | 2.6 | 4.8 |
Dwyane Wade | 2008 | 5.3 | -0.4 | 4.8 |
Russell Westbrook | 2018 | 5.5 | -0.7 | 4.8 |
Lebron James | 2006 | 4.2 | 0.5 | 4.7 |
Ben Wallace | 2001 | 0.9 | 3.8 | 4.7 |
Jimmy Butler | 2022 | 3.1 | 1.6 | 4.7 |
Chris Paul | 2023 | 2 | 2.7 | 4.7 |
Chris Paul | 2010 | 5 | -0.3 | 4.7 |
Dirk Nowitzki | 2010 | 4.2 | 0.5 | 4.7 |
Dirk Nowitzki | 2002 | 4.6 | 0.1 | 4.7 |
Joel Embiid | 2025 | 2 | 2.7 | 4.7 |
Kevin Durant | 2025 | 3.7 | 1 | 4.7 |
Jason Kidd | 2004 | 1.9 | 2.8 | 4.7 |
Jason Kidd | 2002 | 2.7 | 2 | 4.7 |
Stephen Curry | 2024 | 4.6 | 0.1 | 4.7 |
Stephen Curry | 2014 | 4.9 | -0.2 | 4.7 |
James Harden | 2021 | 5.6 | -1 | 4.6 |
James Harden | 2011 | 3.7 | 0.9 | 4.6 |
Jason Kidd | 2006 | 3.7 | 0.9 | 4.6 |
Tim Duncan | 2000 | 1.2 | 3.4 | 4.6 |
Ray Allen | 2006 | 5.9 | -1.4 | 4.5 |
Kevin Durant | 2018 | 4.6 | -0.2 | 4.5 |
Steve Nash | 2006 | 6.7 | -2.3 | 4.5 |
Stephen Curry | 2025 | 5.3 | -0.8 | 4.5 |
Jayson Tatum | 2018 | 2.2 | 2.3 | 4.5 |
Dwyane Wade | 2007 | 4.7 | -0.2 | 4.5 |
Ben Wallace | 2004 | 0.1 | 4.2 | 4.4 |
Jimmy Butler | 2024 | 3.1 | 1.3 | 4.4 |
Dwight Howard | 2012 | 0.5 | 3.9 | 4.4 |
Gary Payton | 2000 | 3.7 | 0.8 | 4.4 |
Paul George | 2017 | 2.1 | 2.3 | 4.4 |
Paul Pierce | 2007 | 4 | 0.4 | 4.4 |
Paul Pierce | 2002 | 3.7 | 0.7 | 4.4 |
Jayson Tatum | 2025 | 3.1 | 1.2 | 4.4 |
Ray Allen | 2003 | 4.7 | -0.4 | 4.3 |
Dirk Nowitzki | 2015 | 4.1 | 0.2 | 4.3 |
Dirk Nowitzki | 2001 | 3.3 | 1 | 4.3 |
Rudy Gobert | 2023 | -0.4 | 4.7 | 4.3 |
Rudy Gobert | 2018 | -0.2 | 4.6 | 4.3 |
Kevin Durant | 2020 | 4.9 | -0.6 | 4.3 |
Kobe Bryant | 2006 | 5.5 | -1.2 | 4.3 |
Paul Pierce | 2003 | 3.7 | 0.6 | 4.3 |
Jayson Tatum | 2019 | 2.3 | 1.9 | 4.3 |
Dwyane Wade | 2013 | 4.8 | -0.5 | 4.3 |
Tim Duncan | 2013 | 0.7 | 3.5 | 4.2 |
Tracy McGrady | 2004 | 5.4 | -1.2 | 4.2 |
Ray Allen | 2002 | 4.4 | -0.4 | 4.1 |
Jimmy Butler | 2017 | 1.7 | 2.4 | 4.1 |
Kevin Garnett | 2002 | 2.3 | 1.7 | 4.1 |
Paul George | 2016 | 0.8 | 3.4 | 4.1 |
Jason Kidd | 2008 | 3.4 | 0.6 | 4 |
Jason Kidd | 2003 | 2 | 2 | 4 |
Jason Kidd | 2000 | 2.8 | 1.2 | 4 |
Paul Pierce | 2004 | 3.8 | 0.2 | 4 |
Tim Duncan | 2014 | 1.3 | 2.7 | 4 |
4year Peaks Study using nbarapm.com
Moderators: Clyde Frazier, Doctor MJ, trex_8063, penbeast0, PaulieWal
Re: 4year Peaks Study using nbarapm.com
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Re: 4year Peaks Study using nbarapm.com
I pulled just the basic RAPM data for 34 players. Here's the list of top 4 year increments.
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Re: 4year Peaks Study using nbarapm.com
One interesting thing about this is that Garnett’s multi-year RAPM peak comes from his later years, rather than the earlier years where he seemed to have been a better player. This is different than the other guys near the very top, who pretty much all have their RAPM peak in a timeframe where I think we’d generally think of as their peak years (with CP3 being another possible exception to that, if we consider his peak to have been on the Hornets).
I think there’s both a charitable and uncharitable way to interpret this. One might say that Garnett having such great RAPM when he was a bit past his best but was actually on a good team suggests that peak Garnett could’ve put up even higher RAPM numbers than that if he’d been on a good team back then. But another interpretation would be that Garnett surely wasn’t actually at his most impactful in those later years and therefore that that data is perhaps just a product of noise, and we should key in more on the data from his actual best years. I’m not sure where I stand on that (and the truth may be somewhere in the middle), but it feels interesting to me since we don’t see much of this with other top players. I suppose another interpretation is that people are wrong and he actually was a better player in those later years than he’d been earlier, but I’m very skeptical of that.
I think there’s both a charitable and uncharitable way to interpret this. One might say that Garnett having such great RAPM when he was a bit past his best but was actually on a good team suggests that peak Garnett could’ve put up even higher RAPM numbers than that if he’d been on a good team back then. But another interpretation would be that Garnett surely wasn’t actually at his most impactful in those later years and therefore that that data is perhaps just a product of noise, and we should key in more on the data from his actual best years. I’m not sure where I stand on that (and the truth may be somewhere in the middle), but it feels interesting to me since we don’t see much of this with other top players. I suppose another interpretation is that people are wrong and he actually was a better player in those later years than he’d been earlier, but I’m very skeptical of that.
OhayoKD wrote:Lebron contributes more to all the phases of play than Messi does. And he is of course a defensive anchor unlike messi.
Re: 4year Peaks Study using nbarapm.com
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Re: 4year Peaks Study using nbarapm.com
lessthanjake wrote:One interesting thing about this is that Garnett’s multi-year RAPM peak comes from his later years, rather than the earlier years where he seemed to have been a better player. This is different than the other guys near the very top, who pretty much all have their RAPM peak in a timeframe where I think we’d generally think of as their peak years (with CP3 being another possible exception to that, if we consider his peak to have been on the Hornets).
I think there’s both a charitable and uncharitable way to interpret this. One might say that Garnett having such great RAPM when he was a bit past his best but was actually on a good team suggests that peak Garnett could’ve put up even higher RAPM numbers than that if he’d been on a good team back then. But another interpretation would be that Garnett surely wasn’t actually at his impactful in those later years and therefore that that data is perhaps just a product of noise, and we should key in more on the data from his actual best years. I’m not sure where I stand on that (and the truth may be somewhere in the middle), but it feels interesting to me since we don’t see much of this with other top players. I suppose another interpretation is that people are wrong and he actually was a better player in those later years than he’d been earlier, but I’m very skeptical of that.
I think it is fairly easy to interpret and we don't need to overthink things.
Garnett was tasked with monumental responsibilities both offensively and defensive when he was on the Timberwolves.
When you have a team with Curry who can burden the offense and Draymond who can burden the defense, their impacts are easily captured. But, when you have someone who has primacy over both offense and defense to the degree Garnett did, his RAPM isn't going to be as high as when he is on a more balanced roster where his impact can be maximized in a more limited scope.
Another way to think of it is what would someone like Curry's RAPM be if he literally played in Draymond's role defensively? It would crater, right? After all the defense of the Warriors would be laughably bad if Curry was playing rim protector and switching everything.
Few players in the history of the NBA had to endure Garnett's offensive and defensive burdens like he did from 2000-2004 (let alone 2005-2007 when the roster fell off a cliff from bad to all-time bad).
Keying into the data from his best years is fine, but make sure you are applying proper context to the situation.
For me, Garnett's incredible RAPM data when he was on competently constructed teams is a "I told you so" moment about what could have been from 1998-2007. Given Garnett's intangibles and unique and diversified skill-set, there is nothing left to look at and ask "Could Garnett have done in his earlier years what he did in 2008 with better rosters?" Of course he could have.
Re: 4year Peaks Study using nbarapm.com
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Re: 4year Peaks Study using nbarapm.com
ReggiesKnicks wrote:lessthanjake wrote:One interesting thing about this is that Garnett’s multi-year RAPM peak comes from his later years, rather than the earlier years where he seemed to have been a better player. This is different than the other guys near the very top, who pretty much all have their RAPM peak in a timeframe where I think we’d generally think of as their peak years (with CP3 being another possible exception to that, if we consider his peak to have been on the Hornets).
I think there’s both a charitable and uncharitable way to interpret this. One might say that Garnett having such great RAPM when he was a bit past his best but was actually on a good team suggests that peak Garnett could’ve put up even higher RAPM numbers than that if he’d been on a good team back then. But another interpretation would be that Garnett surely wasn’t actually at his impactful in those later years and therefore that that data is perhaps just a product of noise, and we should key in more on the data from his actual best years. I’m not sure where I stand on that (and the truth may be somewhere in the middle), but it feels interesting to me since we don’t see much of this with other top players. I suppose another interpretation is that people are wrong and he actually was a better player in those later years than he’d been earlier, but I’m very skeptical of that.
I think it is fairly easy to interpret and we don't need to overthink things.
Garnett was tasked with monumental responsibilities both offensively and defensive when he was on the Timberwolves.
When you have a team with Curry who can burden the offense and Draymond who can burden the defense, their impacts are easily captured. But, when you have someone who has primacy over both offense and defense to the degree Garnett did, his RAPM isn't going to be as high as when he is on a more balanced roster where his impact can be maximized in a more limited scope.
Another way to think of it is what would someone like Curry's RAPM be if he literally played in Draymond's role defensively? It would crater, right? After all the defense of the Warriors would be laughably bad if Curry was playing rim protector and switching everything.
Few players in the history of the NBA had to endure Garnett's offensive and defensive burdens like he did from 2000-2004 (let alone 2005-2007 when the roster fell off a cliff from bad to all-time bad).
Keying into the data from his best years is fine, but make sure you are applying proper context to the situation.
For me, Garnett's incredible RAPM data when he was on competently constructed teams is a "I told you so" moment about what could have been from 1998-2007. Given Garnett's intangibles and unique and diversified skill-set, there is nothing left to look at and ask "Could Garnett have done in his earlier years what he did in 2008 with better rosters?" Of course he could have.
I’m not sure that that conclusion is all that obvious. At least not to me. In general, I think that a team relying on someone more is a context in which we’d expect their impact to be higher, not lower. Of course, that can come into tension with the limits of human energy, where a guy who is relied on for everything probably can’t be as good at any single thing as they would be if they were more specialized in what the team was asking them to do. But it’s also not at all obvious to me that having multiple responsibilities that you do well will result in less impact than having one responsibility you do even better. Intuitively, one would think that the player who is focusing on one responsibility will have more impact on that area but less impact on other areas, and it would likely even out (or probably be worse than evening out, since there may be diminishing returns on energy in one particular area). And, under the circumstances in which the responsibility-for-one-thing timeframe is when the guy is older, we would probably expect less impact overall, because players don’t have as much energy in later years, so basically defense is getting a bigger portion of the pie but the pie is also a bit smaller.
OhayoKD wrote:Lebron contributes more to all the phases of play than Messi does. And he is of course a defensive anchor unlike messi.
Re: 4year Peaks Study using nbarapm.com
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Re: 4year Peaks Study using nbarapm.com
ReggiesKnicks wrote:And, under the circumstances in which the responsibility-for-one-thing timeframe is when the guy is older, we would probably expect less impact overall, because players don’t have as much energy in later years, so basically defense is getting a bigger portion of the pie but the pie is also a bit smaller.
I would say we have such a clear change in roster construction around Garnett that it behooves one to say this.
I would agree if a player stayed in the same circumstance and simply aged. Curry is a great example of this. Same coach, system and 2nd wing (Green) for much of the prime. Curry had his best and more impactful season by RAPM in 2017-2019, his age 27-29 seasons, then started to see a decline.
Garnett saw his heights around ages 31-33.
Duncan saw his heights around ages 26-28.
The thing about all 3 of these players in this range is telling.
For Curry, he had an uber-elite second option in Durant and Draymond at the peak of his powers while in a system for 3-5 years. The role Curry played was clearly defined and laid out, with Durant there Curry's impact only increased even though he had less usage and less roles.
Do you see that? Curry had less offensive primacy and less of a usage and burden compared to his 2015 and 2016 seasons, and his impact per RAPM actually went up.
Now shift a dozen years earlier to Duncan. Duncan's overall impact is increasing he recalls parts of his offensive primacy, allowing the Spurs to foster the growth and blooming of Tony Parker and Manu Ginobili. The offensive burden for the Spurs is no longer solely on the shoulders of Duncan, yet his impact metrics continue to grow.
Why can't this same logic, a pattern we have seen in the best players ever, not apply to Garnett?
I think you’ve replied to this within the wrong thread, so I’ll respond back here again to take it back to the correct thread:
1. I think you’ve raised some reasons why it’s possible a player’s impact could go up in a more specialized role, but I also think it’s very possible for a player’s impact to go up as they are given more responsibility because it means the team is relying on them more (which can hurt how well the team does with a guy off the court). It can go either way, which makes it not at all obvious that that’s the explanation for Garnett’s impact numbers being higher in his later years. It’s certainly possible that in Minnesota he was simply having his offensive responsibility diluting his defensive impact. But it’s also possible that having the team rely on him on both ends was actually helping his impact, and the fact that his RAPM on the Celtics was even higher is a result of something else (noise being one option, but not the only one).
2. You draw analogies to Steph and Duncan, but I think they’re not necessarily factually right. I’ll start with Steph. You say Curry’s RAPM was at its best in 2017-2019. But by most measures, Steph’s best three years in terms of impact were 2015-2017. There’s a lot of RAPM measures and hybrid-RAPM measures out there, so there’s going to be some differences in what they all say, but if you look across the panoply of impact data we have, that’s the general picture you’ll find. I certainly don’t think it’d be valid to try to fashion an argument around an analogy that presupposes that impact data says Steph’s 2017-2019 looks materially more impactful than his 2015 and 2016 years.
3. As for the Duncan analogy, I don’t think that’s factually right either, but for a different reason. I do think it’s right that 2002-2005 looks like Duncan’s most impactful time period. But I definitely don’t see that as a time period that coincides with him having a more specialized role. It actually includes years where he had to take on the most offensive primacy of his career!
4. Notably, related to #2 above, I suppose I should do some due diligence to determine whether the full panoply of impact data we have says Garnett was more impactful in his later years, or whether it just happens to be the case in that one RAPM measure (I’m more familiar with Steph’s impact numbers off the top of my head than Garnett’s). If it’s the latter, then the explanation is probably just that measure randomly being higher on his later years. A quick perusal of xRAPM tells me that it has Garnett 2003-2006 looking a bit more impactful than any similar timespan later in his career. The RAPM on TheBasketballDatabase has Garnett’s RAPM peak being in his Timberwolves years, though it’s all pretty close. EPM has 2002-2005 looking like his best four-year span by a little bit. So yeah, maybe the answer to my inquiry is that Garnett’s impact numbers just aren’t actually better in his later years, despite one particular measure indicating otherwise.
OhayoKD wrote:Lebron contributes more to all the phases of play than Messi does. And he is of course a defensive anchor unlike messi.
Re: 4year Peaks Study using nbarapm.com
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Re: 4year Peaks Study using nbarapm.com
3 year RAPM peaks
Player | end szn | off | def | RAPM |
Kevin Garnett | 2009 | 4.2 | 6.4 | 10.6 |
Lebron James | 2011 | 6.2 | 3.8 | 10 |
Lebron James | 2017 | 7.6 | 2.2 | 9.9 |
Lebron James | 2010 | 7 | 2.3 | 9.3 |
Lebron James | 2009 | 6.1 | 3.2 | 9.3 |
Nikola Jokic | 2025 | 8.3 | 1.1 | 9.3 |
Nikola Jokic | 2024 | 7 | 2.3 | 9.3 |
Lebron James | 2012 | 5.9 | 3.3 | 9.2 |
Kevin Garnett | 2004 | 5.4 | 3.9 | 9.2 |
Kevin Garnett | 2005 | 5.5 | 3.6 | 9 |
Kevin Garnett | 2008 | 3.4 | 5.5 | 8.9 |
Stephen Curry | 2018 | 8.5 | 0.4 | 8.9 |
Stephen Curry | 2019 | 8 | 0.9 | 8.8 |
Lebron James | 2016 | 6.4 | 2.3 | 8.7 |
Tim Duncan | 2005 | 3.9 | 4.7 | 8.6 |
Lebron James | 2015 | 6.8 | 1.6 | 8.4 |
Kawhi Leonard | 2022 | 6.3 | 2.1 | 8.4 |
Chris Paul | 2018 | 5.5 | 2.8 | 8.3 |
Chris Paul | 2016 | 5.2 | 3.1 | 8.3 |
Tim Duncan | 2003 | 4.1 | 4.2 | 8.2 |
Stephen Curry | 2017 | 7.7 | 0.4 | 8.1 |
Lebron James | 2018 | 8 | -0.1 | 8 |
Steve Nash | 2008 | 8.3 | -0.4 | 8 |
Manu Ginobili | 2007 | 5.8 | 2.1 | 8 |
Kevin Garnett | 2010 | 1.9 | 5.9 | 7.9 |
Tim Duncan | 2004 | 3.6 | 4.4 | 7.9 |
Kawhi Leonard | 2018 | 4.9 | 2.9 | 7.8 |
Shaquille O'Neal | 2004 | 6.3 | 1.3 | 7.7 |
Paul George | 2021 | 4 | 3.7 | 7.7 |
Dirk Nowitzki | 2013 | 5.4 | 2.2 | 7.7 |
Chris Paul | 2017 | 5.2 | 2.4 | 7.6 |
Tim Duncan | 2007 | 4.4 | 3.1 | 7.5 |
Steve Nash | 2009 | 8.2 | -0.7 | 7.5 |
Kawhi Leonard | 2017 | 5.2 | 2.2 | 7.4 |
Steve Nash | 2007 | 8.2 | -0.7 | 7.4 |
Kyle Lowry | 2019 | 5.2 | 2.2 | 7.4 |
Lebron James | 2021 | 4 | 3.3 | 7.3 |
Kawhi Leonard | 2023 | 6.3 | 0.9 | 7.2 |
Dirk Nowitzki | 2012 | 5.3 | 1.9 | 7.2 |
Dirk Nowitzki | 2004 | 6.9 | 0.3 | 7.2 |
Dwyane Wade | 2010 | 7 | 0.2 | 7.2 |
Joel Embiid | 2023 | 4.4 | 2.7 | 7.1 |
Joel Embiid | 2019 | 3 | 4.1 | 7.1 |
Stephen Curry | 2016 | 6.4 | 0.6 | 7 |
Shaquille O'Neal | 2005 | 5.9 | 1 | 7 |
Shaquille O'Neal | 2003 | 7.3 | -0.3 | 7 |
Lebron James | 2008 | 5 | 1.9 | 6.9 |
Chris Paul | 2015 | 4.4 | 2.4 | 6.9 |
Manu Ginobili | 2008 | 4.5 | 2.4 | 6.9 |
Jayson Tatum | 2022 | 4.3 | 2.5 | 6.9 |
Kevin Garnett | 2012 | 2 | 4.9 | 6.8 |
Nikola Jokic | 2023 | 6.1 | 0.8 | 6.8 |
Stephen Curry | 2020 | 6.3 | 0.6 | 6.8 |
Tim Duncan | 2006 | 2.9 | 4 | 6.8 |
Shaquille O'Neal | 2000 | 5.6 | 1.2 | 6.8 |
Kyle Lowry | 2018 | 4.7 | 2.1 | 6.8 |
Lebron James | 2020 | 4.9 | 1.8 | 6.7 |
Lebron James | 2014 | 6 | 0.7 | 6.7 |
Kevin Garnett | 2003 | 4.3 | 2.4 | 6.7 |
Chris Paul | 2019 | 3.7 | 3 | 6.7 |
Giannis Antetokounmpo | 2022 | 2.4 | 4.4 | 6.7 |
Lebron James | 2022 | 4.9 | 1.7 | 6.6 |
Manu Ginobili | 2006 | 5.6 | 1 | 6.6 |
Joel Embiid | 2024 | 3.6 | 3 | 6.6 |
Dirk Nowitzki | 2003 | 5.5 | 1.1 | 6.6 |
Kevin Durant | 2021 | 5.2 | 1.4 | 6.6 |
Kevin Garnett | 2013 | 0.3 | 6.2 | 6.5 |
Shaquille O'Neal | 2002 | 6.2 | 0.4 | 6.5 |
Giannis Antetokounmpo | 2020 | 1.7 | 4.8 | 6.5 |
Lebron James | 2019 | 6.4 | -0.1 | 6.4 |
Steve Nash | 2010 | 7.3 | -0.8 | 6.4 |
Manu Ginobili | 2005 | 4 | 2.4 | 6.4 |
Paul George | 2023 | 3.2 | 3.2 | 6.4 |
Joel Embiid | 2020 | 1.7 | 4.7 | 6.4 |
Rudy Gobert | 2022 | 1.8 | 4.5 | 6.4 |
Paul George | 2024 | 3.8 | 2.4 | 6.3 |
Nikola Jokic | 2018 | 4.8 | 1.4 | 6.2 |
Stephen Curry | 2022 | 5.1 | 1.1 | 6.2 |
Tim Duncan | 2002 | 2.1 | 4.1 | 6.2 |
Manu Ginobili | 2016 | 3 | 3.2 | 6.2 |
Shaquille O'Neal | 1999 | 4.7 | 1.5 | 6.2 |
Giannis Antetokounmpo | 2021 | 1.5 | 4.7 | 6.2 |
Nikola Jokic | 2019 | 4.9 | 1.1 | 6.1 |
Stephen Curry | 2015 | 6.1 | 0 | 6.1 |
Manu Ginobili | 2012 | 5.5 | 0.7 | 6.1 |
Jimmy Butler | 2020 | 3.7 | 2.4 | 6.1 |
Kevin Garnett | 2011 | 0.5 | 5.5 | 6 |
Chris Paul | 2014 | 4.3 | 1.8 | 6 |
Manu Ginobili | 2013 | 4.6 | 1.5 | 6 |
Shaquille O'Neal | 2001 | 6.9 | -0.9 | 6 |
Paul George | 2020 | 2.9 | 3.1 | 6 |
Kobe Bryant | 2008 | 6.1 | -0.1 | 6 |
Lebron James | 2013 | 4.5 | 1.4 | 5.9 |
Chris Paul | 2013 | 5.2 | 0.7 | 5.9 |
Kawhi Leonard | 2016 | 1.6 | 4.3 | 5.9 |
Tim Duncan | 2001 | 2.6 | 3.4 | 5.9 |
Manu Ginobili | 2014 | 4.3 | 1.6 | 5.9 |
Dirk Nowitzki | 2005 | 4.6 | 1.3 | 5.9 |
Giannis Antetokounmpo | 2024 | 3.7 | 2.2 | 5.9 |
Kevin Durant | 2016 | 4.6 | 1.3 | 5.9 |
Kyle Lowry | 2017 | 3.8 | 2 | 5.9 |
Chris Paul | 2020 | 3.5 | 2.3 | 5.8 |
Dirk Nowitzki | 2006 | 5 | 0.8 | 5.8 |
Jimmy Butler | 2019 | 2.5 | 3.3 | 5.8 |
Kevin Garnett | 2006 | 3.6 | 2.1 | 5.7 |
Stephen Curry | 2021 | 5.1 | 0.6 | 5.7 |
Chris Paul | 2010 | 5 | 0.7 | 5.7 |
Jayson Tatum | 2023 | 4.7 | 1 | 5.7 |
Rudy Gobert | 2021 | 1.3 | 4.4 | 5.7 |
Chris Paul | 2011 | 4.1 | 1.5 | 5.6 |
Paul George | 2022 | 2.3 | 3.2 | 5.6 |
Dwyane Wade | 2011 | 5.7 | -0.1 | 5.6 |
Dwyane Wade | 2007 | 5.4 | 0.3 | 5.6 |
Kevin Durant | 2017 | 4.6 | 0.9 | 5.6 |
Nikola Jokic | 2017 | 4.3 | 1.2 | 5.5 |
Joel Embiid | 2021 | 2.3 | 3.2 | 5.5 |
Dirk Nowitzki | 2008 | 5.4 | 0.1 | 5.5 |
Dirk Nowitzki | 2007 | 5.2 | 0.3 | 5.5 |
Giannis Antetokounmpo | 2025 | 3.6 | 1.9 | 5.5 |
Kevin Durant | 2023 | 3.8 | 1.8 | 5.5 |
James Harden | 2017 | 5.9 | -0.4 | 5.5 |
James Harden | 2016 | 5.8 | -0.3 | 5.5 |
Rudy Gobert | 2018 | 1 | 4.5 | 5.5 |
Stephen Curry | 2023 | 4.5 | 0.8 | 5.4 |
Chris Paul | 2021 | 2.5 | 3 | 5.4 |
Tim Duncan | 2008 | 3.6 | 1.8 | 5.4 |
Manu Ginobili | 2015 | 2.6 | 2.8 | 5.4 |
Manu Ginobili | 2009 | 2.9 | 2.5 | 5.4 |
Dirk Nowitzki | 2011 | 4.1 | 1.2 | 5.4 |
Giannis Antetokounmpo | 2023 | 2.5 | 2.9 | 5.4 |
Jayson Tatum | 2020 | 2.3 | 3.1 | 5.4 |
Kevin Durant | 2022 | 3.8 | 1.5 | 5.4 |
Jason Kidd | 2005 | 3.9 | 1.6 | 5.4 |
Lebron James | 2007 | 4 | 1.4 | 5.3 |
Kevin Garnett | 2007 | 3.1 | 2.2 | 5.3 |
Kawhi Leonard | 2025 | 3.3 | 2.1 | 5.3 |
Shaquille O'Neal | 2006 | 4.3 | 1 | 5.3 |
Dwyane Wade | 2008 | 5.3 | -0.1 | 5.3 |
Stephen Curry | 2014 | 5.3 | 0 | 5.2 |
Kawhi Leonard | 2024 | 3.1 | 2.1 | 5.2 |
Kawhi Leonard | 2021 | 4.3 | 0.8 | 5.2 |
Steve Nash | 2006 | 7.1 | -1.8 | 5.2 |
Jayson Tatum | 2021 | 3.1 | 2.2 | 5.2 |
Chris Paul | 2012 | 4 | 1.2 | 5.1 |
Steve Nash | 2011 | 5.5 | -0.4 | 5.1 |
Joel Embiid | 2022 | 2.2 | 2.8 | 5.1 |
Dwyane Wade | 2012 | 5.6 | -0.5 | 5.1 |
Russell Westbrook | 2017 | 6.1 | -1 | 5.1 |
Chris Paul | 2022 | 2.1 | 2.9 | 5 |
Tim Duncan | 2009 | 3.2 | 1.8 | 5 |
Giannis Antetokounmpo | 2019 | 1.4 | 3.5 | 5 |
Jayson Tatum | 2024 | 3.9 | 1.2 | 5 |
Jason Kidd | 2004 | 3.3 | 1.7 | 5 |
Ray Allen | 2003 | 4.8 | 0.1 | 5 |