Teambuilding: How do you want to do it

[Jcool0]

[But I think if they keep Giddey, they need to make a big swing for a legit #1 (should one become available)

What are even hypothetical #1 options that we'd want to pair with Giddey? Go through all the current best players and just imagine which ones would actually fit well with Giddey. You need someone that doesn't hold the ball too much, and that rules out all the best players. Like, if you have Shai or Mitchell or Luka or Giannis or Curry, there's not a lot of sense in having Giddey at all.

The only really narrow slice of guys would have the archetype of KD.

I think guys like Tatum or Wemby would overall be good fits, but I don't think they are truly even "#1 scoring option". They're amazing all around players, but I think their pure offensive firepower is obviously a tier below SGA, Giannis, Jokic, Luka, Ant type guys.

So basically, to have a fighting chance, we'd need a KD or Tatum or Wemby level player. Not just a #1, but a #1 who is also in the tiny subset of #1s who aren't completely ball dominant. That's asking for a lot.

IMO the point and benefit of Giddey is that we may actually be able to build a good playoff team with him without any clear #1 guy. I mean RIP Hamilton was an nba champion "#1 option" FWIW.

You cant be a good playoff team without a #1. FWIW Detroit had 4 All Stars in the starting lineup (R. Wallace 4x AS, Billups 5x AS, B. Wallace 4x AS, Hamilton 3x AS) i don't see Chicago pulling that off anytime soon.

[League Circles]

What are even hypothetical #1 options that we'd want to pair with Giddey? Go through all the current best players and just imagine which ones would actually fit well with Giddey. You need someone that doesn't hold the ball too much, and that rules out all the best players. Like, if you have Shai or Mitchell or Luka or Giannis or Curry, there's not a lot of sense in having Giddey at all.

The only really narrow slice of guys would have the archetype of KD.

I think guys like Tatum or Wemby would overall be good fits, but I don't think they are truly even "#1 scoring option". They're amazing all around players, but I think their pure offensive firepower is obviously a tier below SGA, Giannis, Jokic, Luka, Ant type guys.

So basically, to have a fighting chance, we'd need a KD or Tatum or Wemby level player. Not just a #1, but a #1 who is also in the tiny subset of #1s who aren't completely ball dominant. That's asking for a lot.

IMO the point and benefit of Giddey is that we may actually be able to build a good playoff team with him without any clear #1 guy. I mean RIP Hamilton was an nba champion "#1 option" FWIW.

You cant be a good playoff team without a #1. FWIW Detroit had 4 All Stars in the starting lineup (R. Wallace 4x AS, Billups 5x AS, B. Wallace 4x AS, Hamilton 3x AS) i don't see Chicago pulling that off anytime soon.

The point is that their best scorer was merely RIP Hamilton, who wasn't very different in his day than a guy like Coby is now, let alone others like Matas or players tbd.

If team building relies on getting a "true #1", the league's teams should just all fold IMO. Too unrealistic.

[Jcool0]

IMO the point and benefit of Giddey is that we may actually be able to build a good playoff team with him without any clear #1 guy. I mean RIP Hamilton was an nba champion "#1 option" FWIW.

You cant be a good playoff team without a #1. FWIW Detroit had 4 All Stars in the starting lineup (R. Wallace 4x AS, Billups 5x AS, B. Wallace 4x AS, Hamilton 3x AS) i don't see Chicago pulling that off anytime soon.

The point is that their best scorer was merely RIP Hamilton, who wasn't very different in his day than a guy like Coby is now, let alone others like Matas or players tbd.

If team building relies on getting a "true #1", the league's teams should just all fold IMO. Too unrealistic.

Was Rip the "best scorer"? Billups averaged the same ppg in the 2004 Finals, 21 ppg. But Hamilton shot 40.2% (50% TS) while Billups shot 50.9% (70% TS). He also had a 133 ORtg while Hamilton had a 99. And that team has proven to be an outlier of teams that have won titles. I don't think a team can be 24 out of 29 teams in scoring and win anymore.

[MGB8]

Assuming Giddey returns, right now the depth chart would be something like (using defensive assignment):

1: Coby, T.Jones, J.Carter
2: Okoro, Ayo
3: Giddey, Huerter, Terry
4: Matas, Pat/Noa/Phillips
5: Collins / Vuc / J.Smith

Terry could be called a 2, and all the 4s could cover the 3, Ayo the 1, Coby the 2 a bit… but the above is more or less it.

The only position with a truly “below average” top player is the 5 but that is also the hardest to find not just an impact player, but one that fits. The “2” is a 3&D spot that is hard to get a star that would fit with Coby and Giddey in a way that maximizes either.

Looking at it, it seems like the only viable path would be tradable contracts cross the board, looking for an opportunity to come where a current group of good but not elite players gets moved for an elite player. A TO-Kawhi situation. Basically holding two pair and hoping for the chance to discard 3 and get back 4 of a kind - to make a truly terrible analogy.

[sco]

Assuming Giddey returns, right now the depth chart would be something like (using defensive assignment):

1: Coby, T.Jones, J.Carter
2: Okoro, Ayo
3: Giddey, Huerter, Terry
4: Matas, Pat/Noa/Phillips
5: Collins / Vuc / J.Smith

Terry could be called a 2, and all the 4s could cover the 3, Ayo the 1, Coby the 2 a bit… but the above is more or less it.

The only position with a truly “below average” top player is the 5 but that is also the hardest to find not just an impact player, but one that fits. The “2” is a 3&D spot that is hard to get a star that would fit with Coby and Giddey in a way that maximizes either.

Looking at it, it seems like the only viable path would be tradable contracts cross the board, looking for an opportunity to come where a current group of good but not elite players gets moved for an elite player. A TO-Kawhi situation. Basically holding two pair and hoping for the chance to discard 3 and get back 4 of a kind - to make a truly terrible analogy.

I think Huerter gets most of his minutes at the 2 and some at the 3. I think Pwill gets some minutes at the 3.

[Chi town]

Cowley saying Buz is dominating runs with the team and Okoro is Caruso like on D and all the teammates love him. Mentioned his okay will motivate Pat or take all his mins.

[League Circles]

Cowley saying Buz is dominating runs with the team and Okoro is Caruso like on D and all the teammates love him. Mentioned his okay will motivate Pat or take all his mins.

Man that's awesome to hear! Buzelis and Okoro are probably the two biggest variables on our team right now.

[sco]

moved conversation to here on Coby/Giddey:

I mean, to some extent, all flawed players raise fit concerns with other players. The fictional player you envision here is flawed - he has no handles. So yeah, in that instance, you'd go "Giddey is a nice fit with that guy."

In some sense, though, I think you can say the same sort of thing about Coby here. Because he scores well, but isn't an adept rebounder, passer, or defender, he poses fit problems. Giddey's passing is a nice fit with Coby's shooting, and his rebounding I guess is also nicely compatible, but having two big minus defenders on the swing is going to create problems that require a 3rd guy who is a great point-of-attack defender, plus a rim protector for when those guys get switched up and blown by.

I totally disagree. Coby has no glaring weaknesses. I think he could fit next to nearly anyone. His offensive skillset is a bit of everything, and he can play on or off ball and is going to relieve pressure on other offensive players with his ability rather than generate it. He can be adequate as a 2nd scorer on the floor and is probably in elite territory if he's your 3rd scorer.

On defense, he's not strong, but he's not terrible or a guy you'd think "I want to target this guy over and over again". He's high effort, reasonably athletic, but just doesn't have the physical package to be an impact defender.

Coby's overall ability to me is similar to Giddey, but he creates no significant holes on your team and can play next to anyone without making their life harder. That's very much not like Giddey. Giddey is bad enough on defense that teams do target him repeatedly (or at least he was in his last season in OKC in the playoffs when teams usually do stuff like that). His lack of shooting and inability to play off ball does make it harder on his teammates when he doesn't have the ball in his hands.

There's a big difference between a guy who isn't great at every skill and a guy that makes the game more difficult for his teammates if he's not in a very specific niche.

The bolded part, IMO, is the big question mark this season. It's why I am unreasonably focused on being rid of Vuc before the season starts (I know we aren't). My thesis is that it is possible that both Giddey and Coby, while not great, are good enough defensively to build a team around, IF you have a very good defensive C. Everyone else looks worse with Vuc out there. I want to know if our defense is good enough with even Smith (who I really like defensively) starting (again, I know he won't...but theoretically).

Coby Okoro Giddey Matas Smith would be a good test line-up. We have the assets to bring in a star to that mix, but IMO we need proof of concept before doing that.

[dougthonus]

The bolded part, IMO, is the big question mark this season. It's why I am unreasonably focused on being rid of Vuc before the season starts (I know we aren't). My thesis is that it is possible that both Giddey and Coby, while not great, are good enough defensively to build a team around, IF you have a very good defensive C. Everyone else looks worse with Vuc out there. I want to know if our defense is good enough with even Smith (who I really like defensively) starting (again, I know he won't...but theoretically).

Coby Okoro Giddey Matas Smith would be a good test line-up. We have the assets to bring in a star to that mix, but IMO we need proof of concept before doing that.

"Good enough" for what is an interesting question? Whether it be offense or defense really. At this point, I'm hoping we can win games in the low 40s and be fun and interesting, and then figure out how to make a miracle happen later by getting the next superstar with a mid 1st or something. It's not a hopeful plan, but it is probably more fun than tanking at least.

[sco]

The bolded part, IMO, is the big question mark this season. It's why I am unreasonably focused on being rid of Vuc before the season starts (I know we aren't). My thesis is that it is possible that both Giddey and Coby, while not great, are good enough defensively to build a team around, IF you have a very good defensive C. Everyone else looks worse with Vuc out there. I want to know if our defense is good enough with even Smith (who I really like defensively) starting (again, I know he won't...but theoretically).

Coby Okoro Giddey Matas Smith would be a good test line-up. We have the assets to bring in a star to that mix, but IMO we need proof of concept before doing that.

"Good enough" for what is an interesting question? Whether it be offense or defense really. At this point, I'm hoping we can win games in the low 40s and be fun and interesting, and then figure out how to make a miracle happen later by getting the next superstar with a mid 1st or something. It's not a hopeful plan, but it is probably more fun than tanking at least.

The Good Enough part to me is whether to bother keeping Coby next season/at what price. IMO if we trotted out the line-up I mentioned and we are a sub.500 team, I start to feel like keeping Coby at his likely asking price is a mistake because the opportunity cost in terms of starting spot, cap constraints and roster fit is too high.

[Chi town]

The bolded part, IMO, is the big question mark this season. It's why I am unreasonably focused on being rid of Vuc before the season starts (I know we aren't). My thesis is that it is possible that both Giddey and Coby, while not great, are good enough defensively to build a team around, IF you have a very good defensive C. Everyone else looks worse with Vuc out there. I want to know if our defense is good enough with even Smith (who I really like defensively) starting (again, I know he won't...but theoretically).

Coby Okoro Giddey Matas Smith would be a good test line-up. We have the assets to bring in a star to that mix, but IMO we need proof of concept before doing that.

"Good enough" for what is an interesting question? Whether it be offense or defense really. At this point, I'm hoping we can win games in the low 40s and be fun and interesting, and then figure out how to make a miracle happen later by getting the next superstar with a mid 1st or something. It's not a hopeful plan, but it is probably more fun than tanking at least.

Okoro Jones and a healthy Ayo will def help the D.

I do think if we had an average defensive C and not the worst in the league Coby and Giddey would be solid.

If we had a strong defensive C I think we could be a good defensive team with Giddey and Coby as our worst starting defenders. With our pace we would be dangerous if we were good defensively. Lots of easy buckets.

Also think the future will be Giddey Coby Buz Noa defensive C. Noa will play backup C too.

[Chi town]

The bolded part, IMO, is the big question mark this season. It's why I am unreasonably focused on being rid of Vuc before the season starts (I know we aren't). My thesis is that it is possible that both Giddey and Coby, while not great, are good enough defensively to build a team around, IF you have a very good defensive C. Everyone else looks worse with Vuc out there. I want to know if our defense is good enough with even Smith (who I really like defensively) starting (again, I know he won't...but theoretically).

Coby Okoro Giddey Matas Smith would be a good test line-up. We have the assets to bring in a star to that mix, but IMO we need proof of concept before doing that.

"Good enough" for what is an interesting question? Whether it be offense or defense really. At this point, I'm hoping we can win games in the low 40s and be fun and interesting, and then figure out how to make a miracle happen later by getting the next superstar with a mid 1st or something. It's not a hopeful plan, but it is probably more fun than tanking at least.

The Good Enough part to me is whether to bother keeping Coby next season/at what price. IMO if we trotted out the line-up I mentioned and we are a sub.500 team, I start to feel like keeping Coby at his likely asking price is a mistake because the opportunity cost in terms of starting spot, cap constraints and roster fit is too high.

Fully agree on Coby. Need to know this by the deadline. I think AK makes his big move at the deadline for a piece to add or a trading of Coby to fully launch the rebuild.

[MGB8]

The bolded part, IMO, is the big question mark this season. It's why I am unreasonably focused on being rid of Vuc before the season starts (I know we aren't). My thesis is that it is possible that both Giddey and Coby, while not great, are good enough defensively to build a team around, IF you have a very good defensive C. Everyone else looks worse with Vuc out there. I want to know if our defense is good enough with even Smith (who I really like defensively) starting (again, I know he won't...but theoretically).

Coby Okoro Giddey Matas Smith would be a good test line-up. We have the assets to bring in a star to that mix, but IMO we need proof of concept before doing that.

"Good enough" for what is an interesting question? Whether it be offense or defense really. At this point, I'm hoping we can win games in the low 40s and be fun and interesting, and then figure out how to make a miracle happen later by getting the next superstar with a mid 1st or something. It's not a hopeful plan, but it is probably more fun than tanking at least.

Okoro Jones and a healthy Ayo will def help the D.

I do think if we had an average defensive C and not the worst in the league Coby and Giddey would be solid.

If we had a strong defensive C I think we could be a good defensive team with Giddey and Coby as our worst starting defenders. With our pace we would be dangerous if we were good defensively. Lots of easy buckets.

Also think the future will be Giddey Coby Buz Noa defensive C. Noa will play backup C too.

I think you need more than an average defensive C. You need a good one to really make it work, and an elite one to push a Giddey-Coby on the Court together, plus 2 players who are very good defenders - to get to contention.

The issue is (1) there are 2 types of elite C defenses - a guy who provides a strong vertical deterrent (blocks) plus elite range / switch ability, and (2) a guy who provides elite vertical deterrent and power deterrent (post defense) but almost always without great range.

Wemby / Chet / healthy Porzingis vs. Gobert, healthy Embiid, or what Eddey, Clinigan hoped to be. Only 1 guy in the league right now is really both - Mobley. Myles Turner maybe in that mix but lacks a bit on range / switch.

Have to choose a path (unless a unicorn is found)... but given rarity, how do you find (or trade for, otherwise aquire) that guy?

[sco]

"Good enough" for what is an interesting question? Whether it be offense or defense really. At this point, I'm hoping we can win games in the low 40s and be fun and interesting, and then figure out how to make a miracle happen later by getting the next superstar with a mid 1st or something. It's not a hopeful plan, but it is probably more fun than tanking at least.

Okoro Jones and a healthy Ayo will def help the D.

I do think if we had an average defensive C and not the worst in the league Coby and Giddey would be solid.

If we had a strong defensive C I think we could be a good defensive team with Giddey and Coby as our worst starting defenders. With our pace we would be dangerous if we were good defensively. Lots of easy buckets.

Also think the future will be Giddey Coby Buz Noa defensive C. Noa will play backup C too.

I think you need more than an average defensive C. You need a good one to really make it work, and an elite one to push a Giddey-Coby on the Court together, plus 2 players who are very good defenders - to get to contention.

The issue is (1) there are 2 types of elite C defenses - a guy who provides a strong vertical deterrent (blocks) plus elite range / switch ability, and (2) a guy who provides elite vertical deterrent and power deterrent (post defense) but almost always without great range.

Wemby / Chet / healthy Porzingis vs. Gobert, healthy Embiid, or what Eddey, Clinigan hoped to be. Only 1 guy in the league right now is really both - Mobley. Myles Turner maybe in that mix but lacks a bit on range / switch.

Have to choose a path (unless a unicorn is found)... but given rarity, how do you find (or trade for, otherwise aquire) that guy?

Given that KP and Turner moved teams this offseason, it would seem within the range of possibilities.

IMO, the next "gettable" guys who are the first type are MRob and Gafford.

[MikeDC]

1. People don't look too much at stats like this, but if you start looking at things like points per front court touch and time of possession, what you see is that Coby is one of the league's more efficient guards playing without the ball in his hands. This actually makes Coby a really good fit with Giddey (and almost every other ball dominant player) in a way that most highly capable scorers are not. This is a scarce player type.

2. Just because he'll bitch about it, they probably won't bench Vuc and start Collins, but I'd probably up Collins' minutes and reduce Vuc's minutes as much as possible. This is going to create a significant change in how we play offensively, because a lot of our offense is still throwing it to Vuc to make a decision, not necessarily a shooting play. When it comes to actually trying to score close to the basket, Collins and Vuc are about the same (OK). Vuc just puts up numbers because he gets a huge number of touches.

3. Some of those touches need to go to Coby, Matas, and Giddey. They're the only three guys who can plausibly raise their usage and still be efficient or improve. Okoro is going to make that problem worse. They still have room give more touches to someone else. That's why their offense is bad and will continue to be bad. In the absence of a truly efficient high volume scorer, scoring opportunities flow to the lowest common denominator, which is Vuc.

[Chi town]

1. People don't look too much at stats like this, but if you start looking at things like points per front court touch and time of possession, what you see is that Coby is one of the league's more efficient guards playing without the ball in his hands. This actually makes Coby a really good fit with Giddey (and almost every other ball dominant player) in a way that most highly capable scorers are not. This is a scarce player type.

2. Just because he'll bitch about it, they probably won't bench Vuc and start Collins, but I'd probably up Collins' minutes and reduce Vuc's minutes as much as possible. This is going to create a significant change in how we play offensively, because a lot of our offense is still throwing it to Vuc to make a decision, not necessarily a shooting play. When it comes to actually trying to score close to the basket, Collins and Vuc are about the same (OK). Vuc just puts up numbers because he gets a huge number of touches.

3. Some of those touches need to go to Coby, Matas, and Giddey. They're the only three guys who can plausibly raise their usage and still be efficient or improve. Okoro is going to make that problem worse. They still have room give more touches to someone else. That's why their offense is bad and will continue to be bad. In the absence of a truly efficient high volume scorer, scoring opportunities flow to the lowest common denominator, which is Vuc.

This is exactly why I was screaming for a Vuc dump at the deadline but AK demanded a 1st.

So dumb.

Billy better play Collins more and Vuc less.

I fully agree about off ball Coby. It’s what we couldn’t get Zach to do. He is a good fit that will look even better with a good defensive C and hopefully Buz getting better on D.

If Okoro can be a Caruso on D that would go along way in helping Giddey and Coby too.

[drosestruts]

I'm always fearful of NBA teams overthinking things - we signed this guy, or traded for this guy, or drafted this guy - we have to play them/start them or whatever.

Our best lineup last year was Giddey - Coby - Huerter - Buzelis - Vuc with a +5.3 in 134 minutes.

All of those guys are back.

If in training camp or preseason someone like Okoro plays even better, cool.

But until that happens - this should be our starting 5.

[dougthonus]

The Good Enough part to me is whether to bother keeping Coby next season/at what price. IMO if we trotted out the line-up I mentioned and we are a sub.500 team, I start to feel like keeping Coby at his likely asking price is a mistake because the opportunity cost in terms of starting spot, cap constraints and roster fit is too high.

Another way to think about it is keeping Coby at market value a good decision?

[MGB8]

The Good Enough part to me is whether to bother keeping Coby next season/at what price. IMO if we trotted out the line-up I mentioned and we are a sub.500 team, I start to feel like keeping Coby at his likely asking price is a mistake because the opportunity cost in terms of starting spot, cap constraints and roster fit is too high.

Another way to think about it is keeping Coby at market value a good decision?

W will have a lot more data to go in next offseason. The way his handle has improved is undeniable and to his credit. If he could use his footspeed to become a plus defender at the POA… even if his challenges finishing inside continue… it would be a completely different evaluation.

[MikeDC]

I'm always fearful of NBA teams overthinking things - we signed this guy, or traded for this guy, or drafted this guy - we have to play them/start them or whatever.

Our best lineup last year was Giddey - Coby - Huerter - Buzelis - Vuc with a +5.3 in 134 minutes.

All of those guys are back.

If in training camp or preseason someone like Okoro plays even better, cool.

But until that happens - this should be our starting 5.

Haha the same lineup but with Zach Collin’s was somehow +30 in 12 minutes together!

But yeah, I’m a skeptic about Okoro. Im not even sure he’s better than Terry