Where do you rank Draymond all-time, defensively?

[dhsilv2]

That's your opinion and that's highly subjective. We're talking all time here, so it's not out of hand to have the option present. Doesn't mean you have to like or agree with it.

Just for fun. If you rank Dray outside the top 20 (which I actually don't agree with 70's fan that you can't possibly do it). What are your key areas of defensive value and where is he lacking vs the greats and why doesn't he have offsets?

I'd set my criteria as such but not in this particular order:

DPoY wins
All-Defensive teams
Steals, rebounds, or blocks leader
Defensive win shares
Positional intelligence
Adaptability as a defender
Defensive tenacity

He does measure up pretty well in several of those fields seeing he's a forward and usually plays out of position. And I never said I'd ranked him outside the top 20; I merely pointed out that there is a likelihood some might for whatever their own reasons (of which should be basketball and not merely dislike or what have you) and the option for that ranking was missing. Just seemed kind of presumptuous that he's a shoe in for top 20 all-time and that the further falling option was absent.

Interesting...The last 3 are good measures. The first 4 are...frankly almost useless. They would have guys like Eaton in the GOAT defender discussion for example.

And yeah, I know you're just saying it should be a poll choice. That said, it's kinda like asking where people rank tim duncan. Do we need "outside the top 20"?

[70sFan]

Just for fun. If you rank Dray outside the top 20 (which I actually don't agree with 70's fan that you can't possibly do it). What are your key areas of defensive value and where is he lacking vs the greats and why doesn't he have offsets?

I'd set my criteria as such but not in this particular order:

DPoY wins
All-Defensive teams
Steals, rebounds, or blocks leader
Defensive win shares
Positional intelligence
Adaptability as a defender
Defensive tenacity

He does measure up pretty well in several of those fields seeing he's a forward and usually plays out of position. And I never said I'd ranked him outside the top 20; I merely pointed out that there is a likelihood some might for whatever their own reasons (of which should be basketball and not merely dislike or what have you) and the option for that ranking was missing. Just seemed kind of presumptuous that he's a shoe in for top 20 all-time and that the further falling option was absent.

Interesting...The last 3 are good measures. The first 4 are...frankly almost useless. They would have guys like Eaton in the GOAT defender discussion for example.

And yeah, I know you're just saying it should be a poll choice. That said, it's kinda like asking where people rank tim duncan. Do we need "outside the top 20"?

What is wrong with that? Eaton is easily top 15 defender ever.

[dhsilv2]

I'd set my criteria as such but not in this particular order:

DPoY wins
All-Defensive teams
Steals, rebounds, or blocks leader
Defensive win shares
Positional intelligence
Adaptability as a defender
Defensive tenacity

He does measure up pretty well in several of those fields seeing he's a forward and usually plays out of position. And I never said I'd ranked him outside the top 20; I merely pointed out that there is a likelihood some might for whatever their own reasons (of which should be basketball and not merely dislike or what have you) and the option for that ranking was missing. Just seemed kind of presumptuous that he's a shoe in for top 20 all-time and that the further falling option was absent.

Interesting...The last 3 are good measures. The first 4 are...frankly almost useless. They would have guys like Eaton in the GOAT defender discussion for example.

And yeah, I know you're just saying it should be a poll choice. That said, it's kinda like asking where people rank tim duncan. Do we need "outside the top 20"?

What is wrong with that? Eaton is easily top 15 defender ever.

Because there's a big gap in top 15 (not sure I agree) and goat? Kobe is a top 15 player, he isn't in the GOAT discussion.

[70sFan]

Interesting...The last 3 are good measures. The first 4 are...frankly almost useless. They would have guys like Eaton in the GOAT defender discussion for example.

And yeah, I know you're just saying it should be a poll choice. That said, it's kinda like asking where people rank tim duncan. Do we need "outside the top 20"?

What is wrong with that? Eaton is easily top 15 defender ever.

Because there's a big gap in top 15 (not sure I agree) and goat? Kobe is a top 15 player, he isn't in the GOAT discussion.

Well, I went conservative just to find common ground. Eaton has very reasonable case for top 10.

[dhsilv2]

What is wrong with that? Eaton is easily top 15 defender ever.

Because there's a big gap in top 15 (not sure I agree) and goat? Kobe is a top 15 player, he isn't in the GOAT discussion.

Well, I went conservative just to find common ground. Eaton has very reasonable case for top 10.

If one only cares about rim/paint protection. I'd be with you for top 10. And there's obviously a bit of difficulty with era. But just for example, even in his era it was a time of a lot of transition offense. Eaton was hardly a guy who helped there. So even if we agree he has a case for top 10. He still isn't in the GOAT discussion.

There's no argument that we should legit have a debate about Russel or Duncan vs Eaton imo.

[SkyBill40]

He's a shoe in for the top 20 all-time and the further falling option should be absent.

It would just be a hater choice in the poll. One can still choose to be a hater in this thread, one just have to post and might have to defend a difficult position.

If you say so. Subjectivity is the name of the game here.

It's a bit of a bad faith objection if you're not even willing to commit to him not being top 20. Seems like being a contrarian for the sake of it.

I never once said I ranked him outside the top 20; in fact, I never stated at all where I felt he might fit. You want to talk about bad faith? How about jumping to conclusions and claim I've made a statement when I haven't done so at all. That's about as bad faith as it gets.

You want my opinion on it? ASK ME FOR IT.

[SkyBill40]

Just for fun. If you rank Dray outside the top 20 (which I actually don't agree with 70's fan that you can't possibly do it). What are your key areas of defensive value and where is he lacking vs the greats and why doesn't he have offsets?

I'd set my criteria as such but not in this particular order:

DPoY wins
All-Defensive teams
Steals, rebounds, or blocks leader
Defensive win shares
Positional intelligence
Adaptability as a defender
Defensive tenacity

He does measure up pretty well in several of those fields seeing he's a forward and usually plays out of position. And I never said I'd ranked him outside the top 20; I merely pointed out that there is a likelihood some might for whatever their own reasons (of which should be basketball and not merely dislike or what have you) and the option for that ranking was missing. Just seemed kind of presumptuous that he's a shoe in for top 20 all-time and that the further falling option was absent.

Interesting...The last 3 are good measures. The first 4 are...frankly almost useless. They would have guys like Eaton in the GOAT defender discussion for example.

And yeah, I know you're just saying it should be a poll choice. That said, it's kinda like asking where people rank tim duncan. Do we need "outside the top 20"?

If we're covering all the bases, even if it seems a tad absurd, the answer is simple: yes.

[dhsilv2]

I'd set my criteria as such but not in this particular order:

DPoY wins
All-Defensive teams
Steals, rebounds, or blocks leader
Defensive win shares
Positional intelligence
Adaptability as a defender
Defensive tenacity

He does measure up pretty well in several of those fields seeing he's a forward and usually plays out of position. And I never said I'd ranked him outside the top 20; I merely pointed out that there is a likelihood some might for whatever their own reasons (of which should be basketball and not merely dislike or what have you) and the option for that ranking was missing. Just seemed kind of presumptuous that he's a shoe in for top 20 all-time and that the further falling option was absent.

Interesting...The last 3 are good measures. The first 4 are...frankly almost useless. They would have guys like Eaton in the GOAT defender discussion for example.

And yeah, I know you're just saying it should be a poll choice. That said, it's kinda like asking where people rank tim duncan. Do we need "outside the top 20"?

If we're covering all the bases, even if it seems a tad absurd, the answer is simple: yes.

Fair enough. But by that logic, I'd almost rather just have "I'm going troll this player" as the option instead. Which to be fair...I'm 99% would win any Draymond related poll.

[SkyBill40]

Interesting...The last 3 are good measures. The first 4 are...frankly almost useless. They would have guys like Eaton in the GOAT defender discussion for example.

And yeah, I know you're just saying it should be a poll choice. That said, it's kinda like asking where people rank tim duncan. Do we need "outside the top 20"?

If we're covering all the bases, even if it seems a tad absurd, the answer is simple: yes.

Fair enough. But by that logic, I'd almost rather just have "I'm going troll this player" as the option instead. Which to be fair...I'm 99% would win any Draymond related poll.

That's also fair enough. I have my likes and dislikes for players just like everyone else, but I try hard to not let that cloud objectivity as best it can be.

[CS707]

If you say so. Subjectivity is the name of the game here.

It's a bit of a bad faith objection if you're not even willing to commit to him not being top 20. Seems like being a contrarian for the sake of it.

I never once said I ranked him outside the top 20; in fact, I never stated at all where I felt he might fit. You want to talk about bad faith? How about jumping to conclusions and claim I've made a statement when I haven't done so at all. That's about as bad faith as it gets.

You want my opinion on it? ASK ME FOR IT.

You either rank him outside the top 20, in which case just say it, or want to argue about something that doesn't actually affect your ability to participate in the poll. Basically arguing for the sake of arguing. Don't be that guy.

[SkyBill40]

It's a bit of a bad faith objection if you're not even willing to commit to him not being top 20. Seems like being a contrarian for the sake of it.

I never once said I ranked him outside the top 20; in fact, I never stated at all where I felt he might fit. You want to talk about bad faith? How about jumping to conclusions and claim I've made a statement when I haven't done so at all. That's about as bad faith as it gets.

You want my opinion on it? ASK ME FOR IT.

You either rank him outside the top 20, in which case just say it, or want to argue about something that doesn't actually affect your ability to participate in the poll. Basically arguing for the sake of arguing. Don't be that guy.

Not being that guy, but assume all you wish. Ignorance is free and I didn't start an argument. I made a suggestion and that was all. Still is.

Sent from my SM-F936U using RealGM mobile app

[ConSarnit]

He's the greatest all round defender of all time.

There are better center defenders, there are better small defenders, but no other defender is as smart as him, and no other defender can guard every single player in the leauge like him.

His ability to quarterback the defense by telling everybody where they should be, and predicting where opponents are gonna go is very underrated.

I still rank Dennis Rodman as the greatest defender of all time. IMHO Dennis could guard whoever and shut them down, like he never seemed to slow down in games and like Draymond he would be playing mental chess with you all game trying to get you ejected. I think Dennis gets overshadowed because Chicago had 3 great defenders all ready in MJ, Scottie and Ron Harper.

IMHO Draymond is in the 10-15 range for me as I have Hakeem, Wilt, Russel, Kareem, Rodman, Duncan (crazy that he never went n a DPOTY) , Ben Wallace (probably #2 all time), Moncrief, Kawhi Leonard, Pippen, Payton, Jordan, KG, Robinson, Motoumbo then you could argue Bobby Jones, Giannis and Dwight Howard. Also Kobe Bryant doesn't get enough love as one of the premier defenders

Rodman's defensive impact is too narrow. He's a ferocious man-to-man defender, and arguably the best rebounder ever, but there's a ton of stuff Rodman didn't do. He's not a rim protector, he doesn't force turnovers, he doesn't get deflections. He's a very weak help defender, mostly because he's bizarrely myopic when it comes to guarding his own man and chasing rebounds. Unless he's guarding the man with the ball in his hands, Rodman is a bit of a zero.

To me, Rodman's defense could be a bit... stupid. He was so obsessed with stopping his man, he ignored every other facet of defense. His deny defense was incredible, but there were possessions where he basically forces his team to play 4-on-4, because he's doing nothing to help, while physically bodying his assignment away from the play.

In the 1995 WCF (Spurs vs. Rockets), Bob Hill's game plan was to double the crap out of Hakeem with Robinson and Rodman. The problem was Rodman was strangely reluctant to do so. Re-watching that series, the possessions where they double Hakeem go pretty well, but there are a ton of possessions where Hakeem is cooking Robinson, and Rodman is ignoring the play to face guard Pete Chilcutt for some reason.

(There was one thing Rodman would leave his man for: rebounds. Rodman would abandon everything to chase a rebound.)

Defense is about more than just the man in front of you. Rodman is one of the best ever at guarding the man in front of him, but he was so tunnel-visioned with it that he gave back value in a lot of other places. Watch Rodman's on-ball possessions, he looks like the D-GOAT. Watch his off-ball ones, he looks bad.

I still have Rodman as one of the game's great defenders, but he's nowhere near the top for me. Borderline top 20 for me.

Draymond is the best overall defender of all-time imo. Rodman couldn’t provide the same level of rim protection/help defense that Draymond could. Rim protection is by far the most impactful aspect of defense. Both can bang with almost anyone in the post even though they are both undersized. Both can switch onto anyone (though I’d give Rodman the edge here). The increased rim protection you’d get with Draymond over Rodman is too valuable imo.

I don’t think there has ever been a more well rounded defender than Draymond. Rim protection, post defense and switchability. He has almost zero defensive flaws. There are few guys I’d take over Draymond strictly based on giving you elite full-time rim protection (Duncan, Hakeem, etc) but for defensive “well roundedness” I think Draymond is #1 (or maybe KG).

[michaelm]

I never once said I ranked him outside the top 20; in fact, I never stated at all where I felt he might fit. You want to talk about bad faith? How about jumping to conclusions and claim I've made a statement when I haven't done so at all. That's about as bad faith as it gets.

You want my opinion on it? ASK ME FOR IT.

You either rank him outside the top 20, in which case just say it, or want to argue about something that doesn't actually affect your ability to participate in the poll. Basically arguing for the sake of arguing. Don't be that guy.

Not being that guy, but assume all you wish. Ignorance is free and I didn't start an argument. I made a suggestion and that was all. Still is.

Sent from my SM-F936U using RealGM mobile app

I disagree with him being rated outside the top 20, but consider that to be a reasonable option if the poll has a greatest ever option.

[michaelm]

I still rank Dennis Rodman as the greatest defender of all time. IMHO Dennis could guard whoever and shut them down, like he never seemed to slow down in games and like Draymond he would be playing mental chess with you all game trying to get you ejected. I think Dennis gets overshadowed because Chicago had 3 great defenders all ready in MJ, Scottie and Ron Harper.

IMHO Draymond is in the 10-15 range for me as I have Hakeem, Wilt, Russel, Kareem, Rodman, Duncan (crazy that he never went n a DPOTY) , Ben Wallace (probably #2 all time), Moncrief, Kawhi Leonard, Pippen, Payton, Jordan, KG, Robinson, Motoumbo then you could argue Bobby Jones, Giannis and Dwight Howard. Also Kobe Bryant doesn't get enough love as one of the premier defenders

Rodman's defensive impact is too narrow. He's a ferocious man-to-man defender, and arguably the best rebounder ever, but there's a ton of stuff Rodman didn't do. He's not a rim protector, he doesn't force turnovers, he doesn't get deflections. He's a very weak help defender, mostly because he's bizarrely myopic when it comes to guarding his own man and chasing rebounds. Unless he's guarding the man with the ball in his hands, Rodman is a bit of a zero.

To me, Rodman's defense could be a bit... stupid. He was so obsessed with stopping his man, he ignored every other facet of defense. His deny defense was incredible, but there were possessions where he basically forces his team to play 4-on-4, because he's doing nothing to help, while physically bodying his assignment away from the play.

In the 1995 WCF (Spurs vs. Rockets), Bob Hill's game plan was to double the crap out of Hakeem with Robinson and Rodman. The problem was Rodman was strangely reluctant to do so. Re-watching that series, the possessions where they double Hakeem go pretty well, but there are a ton of possessions where Hakeem is cooking Robinson, and Rodman is ignoring the play to face guard Pete Chilcutt for some reason.

(There was one thing Rodman would leave his man for: rebounds. Rodman would abandon everything to chase a rebound.)

Defense is about more than just the man in front of you. Rodman is one of the best ever at guarding the man in front of him, but he was so tunnel-visioned with it that he gave back value in a lot of other places. Watch Rodman's on-ball possessions, he looks like the D-GOAT. Watch his off-ball ones, he looks bad.

I still have Rodman as one of the game's great defenders, but he's nowhere near the top for me. Borderline top 20 for me.

Draymond is the best overall defender of all-time imo. Rodman couldn’t provide the same level of rim protection/help defense that Draymond could. Rim protection is by far the most impactful aspect of defense. Both can bang with almost anyone in the post even though they are both undersized. Both can switch onto anyone (though I’d give Rodman the edge here). The increased rim protection you’d get with Draymond over Rodman is too valuable imo.

I don’t think there has ever been a more well rounded defender than Draymond. Rim protection, post defense and switchability. He has almost zero defensive flaws. There are few guys I’d take over Draymond strictly based on giving you elite full-time rim protection (Duncan, Hakeem, etc) but for defensive “well roundedness” I think Draymond is #1 (or maybe KG).

He can rim protect with his long arms, particularly in clutch moments, but I wouldn’t call him a highly elite rim protector, as the last 2 games of the 2016 finals without Andrew Bogut who was a highly elite rim protector demonstrated.

A point of difference over many for me was/is Draymond’s ability to organise an entire defense. Andrew Wiggins became an elite defender next to him as one example.

[Godymas]

there are a lot of star guys that people don’t think about that are better than Draymond all time.

Like prime Kawhi was beating Draymond for DPOYs. Pippen has no DPOYs, he gets a higher rank. Would Gobert be above Draymond? What about Ben Wallace? Jordan? Hakeem? Kareem? Duncan? KG? Dwight?

It’s so hard to rank, especially considering positions

[Blame Rasho]

My objective opinion is that he has a very good and valid case of being one of the best ( if not the best) defenders of his era. It is also of my opinion that he wouldn’t be good if you placed him in 1985, 1995 and 2005. Is it fair to say that? Each their own. I am of the opinion you can place like 5 to 10 players in place of Green with the Warriors and they wouldn’t miss a beat defensively. Just imagine the Warriors with David Robinson or Hakeem. Good lord… heck… put a prime sheed who was one of the best pick and roll defenders and knew how and when to hedge a screen.