Lawyer's Perspective on the Kawhi/Clippers/Aspiration Case

Moderators: bwgood77, zimpy27, infinite11285, Clav, Domejandro, ken6199, bisme37, Dirk, KingDavid, cupcakesnake

User avatar
Ryoga Hibiki
RealGM
Posts: 12,558
And1: 7,742
Joined: Nov 14, 2001
Location: Warszawa now, but from Northern Italy

Re: Lawyer's Perspective on the Kawhi/Clippers/Aspiration Case 

Post#141 » by Ryoga Hibiki » Sun Sep 14, 2025 2:25 pm

tamaraw08 wrote:
Mavrelous wrote:
tamaraw08 wrote:
Is there actual proof of this?
Can Torre provide evidences that can directly point to Ballmer being aware of these transactions?
Can Silver simple ignore the fact that Clippers minority owner actually put 2 mil to Aspiration so that company can pay Kawhi a few days after?

No official proof, just safe assumption...


okay, but isn't it enough to punish the Clippers for having their minority owner actually invest 2 Mil to a failing company and that Company paid Kawhi what was owed 9 days later?

if this is not enough, in the context of everything else we know, I don't know what is.
you'll never find a clearer case than this one, unless you have an idiot like Glenn Taylor on the other side.
The NBA doesn't have the power of a federal agency. To make these rules enforceable the burden of proof must be different.
Слава Украине!
User avatar
Pattycakes
General Manager
Posts: 8,593
And1: 2,218
Joined: Nov 01, 2005
Contact:
     

Re: Lawyer's Perspective on the Kawhi/Clippers/Aspiration Case 

Post#142 » by Pattycakes » Sun Sep 14, 2025 2:29 pm

Love how these billionaires can play the “doy! I didn’t know..” and then we eat it up every time. It’s why this country and world have started to suck… like a lot this century

Enforce and penalize the strongest on them who have manipulated mankind for their own pockets
Somewhere trying not to offend Texas Chuck.
mtcan
RealGM
Posts: 27,663
And1: 24,115
Joined: May 19, 2001

Re: Lawyer's Perspective on the Kawhi/Clippers/Aspiration Case 

Post#143 » by mtcan » Sun Sep 14, 2025 2:34 pm

Dino-Might wrote:
JonFromVA wrote:
Where do you diverge from the narrative that Pablo has pieced together?


This does not diverge so much as fill in some blanks. Pablo has only reported things that can be established by the evidence - he has intentionally avoided engaging in speculation without backing them up.

However, his reporting begs the question, why was this no-show endorsement deal made in 2021, not in 2019? What benefit did the Clippers gain from giving him the extra benefits, when Kawhi was no longer such a hot commodity and they could make the best offer for him in 2021?

However, things make much more sense if there was a verbal promise made in 2019 that was fulfilled two years later.

We are fortunate to know of THIS no-show deal because Aspiration was a crooked operation, people were arrested and stuff came out in court that led people like Pablo down a rabbit hole.

This may well be just the tip of the iceberg.
User avatar
Ryoga Hibiki
RealGM
Posts: 12,558
And1: 7,742
Joined: Nov 14, 2001
Location: Warszawa now, but from Northern Italy

Re: Lawyer's Perspective on the Kawhi/Clippers/Aspiration Case 

Post#144 » by Ryoga Hibiki » Sun Sep 14, 2025 2:40 pm

Dino-Might wrote:When I am preparing for a file, I often have a working theory of the case that I adjust based on any new information I get. Some of it starts out as speculation without evidence, just based on inferences and my gut. I focus my research on those areas to see if I can find evidence to support or rule out my theory.

I would like to share my current working theory of the Kawhi situation. Disclaimer: much of it is wild speculation on my part with no evidentiary foundation; just a theory worth exploring and testing.

Back in 2019 when Kawhi was a free agent, he and Uncle Dennis were talking to three teams, Lakers, Raptors and the Lakers. Based on the reporting out there, it sounded like Kawhi was trying to get the teams into a bidding war. He was asking the Raptors for at least $10 million per year in endorsements where he wouldn't have to do anything, part ownership in the Toronto Maple Leafs, and other improper benefits (use of company jet, etc.). He also asked them to trade for Paul George. The reporting from the Lakers was not as detailed but it was suggested Kawhi had also made similar improper demands from Jeannie Buss as well, including ownership stake in the Lakers, guaranteed endorsement $ and a house.

Given Kawhi's reputation for being a miser, it would be difficult to imagine that he and Uncle Dennis did not also ask Clippers and the NBA's wealthiest owner Ballmer for similar extras back in 2019. Coming off a Finals MVP and Championship, Kawhi had all the leverage in the world and Ballmer was desperate to get him. The Clippers did meet Kawhi's demand for Paul George, at great cost to the team. Why wouldn't Uncle Dennis be asking for extra endorsement dollars and investment opportunities? In fact, Kawhi would be leaving extra money on the table by leaving the Raptors, who had the ability to give him a longer, more lucrative deal. Would Kawhi not at least ask Ballmer to make up that difference?

Here, there are two possibilities of what happened next. The first possibility is that the Clippers did in fact give him extra money through endorsements and secret side deals that was never discovered, despite the NBA's investigation. In fact, the only reason we found out about the Aspiration deal was because it went bankrupt, basically through sheer luck (not to take anything away from Pablo's great work).

I have some questions with this first option. If the Clippers had a secret arrangement that worked in 2019, why would they need to recruit Aspiration, two years later to facilitate the cap circumvention? Couldn't they continue using what was working? Secondly, if Kawhi was happy with his arrangement in 2019, where he was getting the extra $ and investments he had asked for, why did he ONLY sign a 2+1 deal in 2019? Given his injury history, it was widely expected that he would sign a 4-year deal $141 million deal with the Clippers and everyone was shocked when he only signed a 3 year deal for $103 million with a player option in the third year.

My primary theory here is that there was a handshake agreement made in 2019 when Kawhi signed, for such extra benefits. However, it takes time to enlist a shady, unrelated company to secretly funnel money for you. So the arrangement was not in place when Kawhi signed. This may explain why Kawhi took a 2 +1 year deal, instead of the longer 4 year deal that everyone expected. This would allow Kawhi to keep Ballmer's feet to the fire to make sure Ballmer kept his word within 2 years.

Once NBA launch an investigation in or around the Summer of 2019 about the circumstances of the Clippers deal, there as too much heat for the parties to proceed. They waited until after the investigation closed without finding any wrongdoing. By the time he opted out of his contract in 2021, he would have expected Ballmer and the Clippers to fulfill their end of the bargain by delivering the extra benefits that had already been discussed.

By 2021, after two injury plagued seasons, Kawhi had far less leverage than he had back in 2019 so it made less sense for Ballmer to offer him such benefits for the first time. Kawhi didn't have anywhere else he could go for the max.

However, the Aspiration deal makes sense if Ballmer was simply honouring an agreement that was already made back in 2019.

And they would have gotten away with it, except for the little fact that the type of companies that are willing to take money to help you illicitly and secretly funnel money are also the same type of companies that may defraud their investors, end up under government investigation and end up going bankrupt. Ballmer's defence seems to be that he was a victim, that he was defrauded. Sounds like this is true. Ballmer gave Aspiration $50 million from his personal LLC, presumably on the basis of a promise that they would divert $48 million of it to Kawhi.

What Ballmer did not know at the time was that Aspiration was not a viable company, had no real revenue source, and was simply borrowing money against its own equity in order to create the illusion of revenue and investments.

When Aspiration stopped being able to pay Kawhi the money Ballmer had provided for such purpose, Kawhi and Uncle Dennis were likely pissed. All they knew was that they had been promised this money by Ballmer as a condition of Kawhi joining the Clippers and it was not being honored. At that time, in 2022, Kawhi was coming back from injury. I have seen the speculation that Kawhi and Uncle Dennis were shaking down the Clippers and refusing to play games unless they were paid what was owed to them. The Clippers minority owner Dennis Wong had to invest $2 million in Aspiration, at a time when they were on the verge of bankruptcy, so that Kawhi could get paid his 1.75 million installment.

The latest report was that Ballmer then had to put in an addition $10 million in March 2023 to try to keep Aspiration afloat.

So it is true that Ballmer was defrauded. He gave them $50 million to pay Kawhi but had to put in extra millions more just to keep the payments flowing, until the company finally went under, leaving him to deal with the aftermath when their list of creditors went public.

Thoughts? Weaknesses? I'm open to feedback.


I got to a similar conclusion, but I am not ruling out that the possibility that the Aspiration deal was there to replace another under the table deal, reached in 2019, that in the meantime expired.
Moreover, the 2+1 was not that weird of contract, Kawhi could opt out as a 10 year veteran, demanding 35% of the cap. Given how much the Clippers had to invest on him, it did make sense to think they were pot committed anyway.
Слава Украине!
inonba
Pro Prospect
Posts: 949
And1: 408
Joined: Jan 10, 2009

Re: Lawyer's Perspective on the Kawhi/Clippers/Aspiration Case 

Post#145 » by inonba » Sun Sep 14, 2025 5:15 pm

Dino-Might wrote:
inonba wrote:
Dino-Might wrote:This may explain why Kawhi took a 2 +1 year deal, instead of the longer 4 year deal that everyone expected. This would allow Kawhi to keep Ballmer's feet to the fire to make sure Ballmer kept his word within 2 years.


I don't think anybody was expecting Kawhi to take the 4 year deal at the time. Kawhi was finishing his 8th season in the NBA, so he did the 2+1 to put him at year 10 so he can sign the max that allows him to be paid 35% of the cap.


Here is one source that did: https://www.forbes.com/sites/curtisrush/2019/07/10/in-another-kawhi-leonard-surprise-former-toronto-raptor-goes-short-term-with-three-year-103-million-deal-with-los-angeles-clippers/

There were others surprised as well when it happened, but the rationale provided after the fact about the 10 year vet max was generally accepted. I had forgotten about that and it does provide a plausible explanation for the short deal.


Forbes probably not as familiar with the NBA salary cap. Many in the media were urging Kawhi to re-sign with the Raptors at 1+1 and run it back for another title run. Rationale is the same with the understanding he can request to be traded to LA and keep his bird rights if things go south. At least that is how I remember it.
manlisten
Senior
Posts: 671
And1: 744
Joined: Dec 10, 2005

Re: Lawyer's Perspective on the Kawhi/Clippers/Aspiration Case 

Post#146 » by manlisten » Sun Sep 14, 2025 5:26 pm

The only defense of any of these parties involved is that they couldn't be dumb enough to do this and yet they keep showing us how dumb they really are. Ballmer going on ESPN and lying his ass off, the Clipsters announcing that they turned down a mega deal on their naming rights essentially because they didn't trust Aspiration, Cherny explaining that Kawhi's deal actually had extensive obligations and could be terminated if he didn't meet them yet he didn't come close to fulfilling any of them and instead of terminating him they made it their top priority to continue paying him while they were bleeding money out the ass and laying everyone off. Why would they think any of this helps their case?
The Master
Sixth Man
Posts: 1,899
And1: 3,370
Joined: Dec 30, 2016

Re: Lawyer's Perspective on the Kawhi/Clippers/Aspiration Case 

Post#147 » by The Master » Sun Sep 14, 2025 5:36 pm

manlisten wrote:The only defense of any of these parties involved is that they couldn't be dumb enough to do this and yet they keep showing us how dumb they really are. Ballmer going on ESPN and lying his ass off, the Clipsters announcing that they turned down a mega deal on their naming rights essentially because they didn't trust Aspiration, Cherny explaining that Kawhi's deal actually had extensive obligations and could be terminated if he didn't meet them yet he didn't come close to fulfilling any of them and instead of terminating him they made it their top priority to continue paying him while they were bleeding money out the ass and laying everyone off. Why would they think any of this helps their case?

It doesn't work for us (fans), the question is whether it works for the general public/group of owners:

- Ballmer going to ESPN denying anything,
- mainstream 'journalists' saying how hard evidence is needed,
- Marc Cuban going on a rant saying that poor Stevie was scammed,
- ESPN not covering the issue properly.

Yeah, Pablo Torre is doing amazingly and let's say realGM community knows what happened up to this point - but it's all about general perception. And here, who knows, maybe this strategy will work, as sad as it may sound.
JonFromVA
RealGM
Posts: 15,115
And1: 5,022
Joined: Dec 08, 2009
     

Re: Lawyer's Perspective on the Kawhi/Clippers/Aspiration Case 

Post#148 » by JonFromVA » Mon Sep 15, 2025 6:42 pm

Pattycakes wrote:Love how these billionaires can play the “doy! I didn’t know..” and then we eat it up every time. It’s why this country and world have started to suck… like a lot this century

Enforce and penalize the strongest on them who have manipulated mankind for their own pockets


Speaking as an American, it's never a mistake to error on the side of a presumption of innocence.

The thing is perception matters to the NBA too, so, they will likely do *something* to try to wash their hands of this even if they can't demonstrate culpability.

And as the op pointed out, the burden of proof isn't beyond a reasonable doubt, but Adam Silver has made it clear the league needs to prove something.
User avatar
Parataxis
General Manager
Posts: 9,508
And1: 5,799
Joined: Jan 31, 2010
Location: Penticton, BC
       

Re: Lawyer's Perspective on the Kawhi/Clippers/Aspiration Case 

Post#149 » by Parataxis » Mon Sep 15, 2025 7:18 pm

clippertown wrote:
What goes for Ballmer will go for the rest of them and I think they are all pretty aware of that.


I mean, this is probably exactly WHY the owners need something enforced. Salary caps, for all the PR bluster about 'competitive balance' are about protecting the owners from themselves - that's why the owners insist on it, and that's why the players fight against it. Without a salary cap/max contracts, player salaries would keep growing and growing, because nobody wants to be the guy who lost out on a player because they 'wouldn't offer a million more'

If this goes unpunished, the salary cap is effectively dead. Every star player will start demanding (and expecting) these sort of circumventing contracts, and the teams will feel the need to agree - or else somebody else will.
inonba
Pro Prospect
Posts: 949
And1: 408
Joined: Jan 10, 2009

Re: Lawyer's Perspective on the Kawhi/Clippers/Aspiration Case 

Post#150 » by inonba » Tue Sep 16, 2025 3:53 am

Parataxis wrote:
clippertown wrote:
What goes for Ballmer will go for the rest of them and I think they are all pretty aware of that.


I mean, this is probably exactly WHY the owners need something enforced. Salary caps, for all the PR bluster about 'competitive balance' are about protecting the owners from themselves - that's why the owners insist on it, and that's why the players fight against it. Without a salary cap/max contracts, player salaries would keep growing and growing, because nobody wants to be the guy who lost out on a player because they 'wouldn't offer a million more'

If this goes unpunished, the salary cap is effectively dead. Every star player will start demanding (and expecting) these sort of circumventing contracts, and the teams will feel the need to agree - or else somebody else will.


There is such a thing as setting a precedent, which is why the penalty will have to fit the crime and not dependent on the amount of evidence available. Either the NBA establishes guilt or they don't. If they do, the punishment has to fit the crime.

If the NBA goes light, the next cap circumvention perpetrator will demand the same punishment. This is why I don't buy the Steve Ballmer is too important to the league nonsense. It doesn't matter.
inonba
Pro Prospect
Posts: 949
And1: 408
Joined: Jan 10, 2009

Re: Lawyer's Perspective on the Kawhi/Clippers/Aspiration Case 

Post#151 » by inonba » Tue Sep 16, 2025 4:00 am

I have another question for the lawyers. Can or will Kawhi be indicted as a co-conspirator in part of the DOJ investigation? Serious question.

If we are to buy Ballmer explanation that he had nothing to do with the endorsement contract, then the next logical explanation in why Kawhi got a no-show contract would be collusion with the C level management at Aspiration to defraud investors as it is effectively transferring investor money to a specific person and likely, the money would be laundered further to other co-conspirators. As an investor of Aspiration and seemingly believing the mission statement, where is Ballmer's outrage? He seems to be outraged enough to call out Aspiration saying he's the victim. If that is indeed true, why isn't he outraged at the person who took all his money?

Return to The General Board