What would YOUR rotation look like to start the season?

[Chi town]

I see no scenario where Vuc accepts coming off the bench.

He could easily go to Billy and ask for that but he’s hasn’t and won’t.

Love the idea of him 20mpg off the bench. Even though he still slows us down.

[Infinity2152]

I mean, at the end of the day, he's already on the trade block. What can Vucevic really do? Demand to be traded? He's going to be a free agent, he doesn't want to look bad. He just doesn't seem that type of guy, although I could be wrong. And he could come off the bench and still get 25+ minutes, that would still be WAY better than starting him. He'd mostly be with the bench unit with Huerter and Williams, who aren't exactly sprinters either, lol.

Bringing him off the bench but giving him the most minutes would be a compromise until one gets traded. The coach needs to control the lineup, not the players. Vucevic is not valuable enough to us at this point to force the issue.

Billy calls Vuc into his office. "All three of you are about to be free agents. Love you, I'm fighting for you. Really want to trade Collins or Smith, we're not re-signing both of them. Only way AK trades them is if they up their value. Let Collins start, run up and down the court, get his numbers up. You run the bench, no scorers in the second lineup, green light as playmaker and scorer, get 28-30 minutes, keep your numbers up too. You look like a great team player auditioning for free agency, whether or not you come back here."

Collins has only played 70+ games once, and that's averaging less than 20 minutes a game. So Collins as a full time 30+ minutes starter lasting a season might be a stretch anyway.

[jnrjr79]

If usg% is to be believed, Vuc has consistently been the third option until Zach was traded. DeMar and Zach not being "that guy" seemed like a bigger cause of a bad team. Vuc seemed to adapt and was, last season, second fiddle to Coby who is less efficient and we all love. Arguably third to Giddey but he isn't really a scorer. Vuc isn't the main guy and isn't paid like one.
To me, Vuc was a fine "third option" if DeMar and Zach had been better as 1 and 2. Stacey always complained that they weren't getting him shots where he excelled. Which is what it is and King's POV was kinda dumb (more post-ups) but I also think it's part of Billy's bad coaching. He doesn't get the most out of his players. Players come here and perform worse. Leave and do better (Lauri should still be on the team though he seemingly regressed).

The three-headed monster obviously didn't work and I had high hopes. It might've been more effective if Lonzo was healthy or if we had Giddey from the start. In retrospect, I wish we had that pick that became Wagner. And did a lesser deal for Wendell who actually kinda sucks. I kinda wish we built our team like Orlando did post-Vuc. They're not a great team but they're better than the Bulls.

I'd ask: who should be taking shots instead of Vuc on this Bulls team? Coby, I'd say. Maybe Matas but that's yet to be proven. There isn't really anyone else and, when we were trying to be good, he deferred to the guards. But I don't think a center who can stretch the floor, handle the ball a little bit and pass the ball well doesn't have a place in the NBA. He's kind of a homeless man's Jokic. A guy like Roy Hibbert doesn't really have a place in NBA these days although Gobert is kind of a stud...but sort of overrated to me.

You can agree or disagree on my opinions on Vuc and why he has been so bad. The reality is the Bulls have been awful whenever he plays in a way that has been consistent for four years and consistently worse than any other center and worse over that time period than any other player on the roster.

I've given you reasons why I think it is true. Here's what I think will be true next year:
1: He will be the worst defensive big we have by a large margin
2: He is the slowest big we have, least able to play at the pace we want
3: He will not draw anyone out with his threat as a shooter, so even if he shoots well he will make the offense harder on everyone else
4: His post game will yield bad possessions overall of inefficient scoring and taking too much time off the clock to get better shots elsewhere
5: Should he play, he'll continue to compile posting stats and terrible floor impact numbers

One thing I’d note here:

Nikola Vucevic will be 35 next season. At this stage, whether he is good or bad is irrelevant. This is a rebuilding team and he will not be a part of its future. You can elect to move on from him without having to have a referendum on his tenure.

[Infinity2152]

Here's a friendly way to look at it. Vuc would probably be considered one of the best, most durable backup centers in the league, even at 35. A guy who can actually step up for a contender if the starter gets injured. He plays way more games than a lot of younger guys. He may get $20 mill AAV on his next contract, don't think that's a lot for one of the best backups in the league at center you're confident you're getting 70+ games from.

Like seriously, say we trade Vuc today for a non-center. Given Smith and Collins history plus never having started, not very confident in having two healthy centers all year.

[dougthonus]

Here's a friendly way to look at it. Vuc would probably be considered one of the best, most durable backup centers in the league, even at 35. A guy who can actually step up for a contender if the starter gets injured. He plays way more games than a lot of younger guys. He may get $20 mill AAV on his next contract, don't think that's a lot for one of the best backups in the league at center you're confident you're getting 70+ games from.

Like seriously, say we trade Vuc today for a non-center. Given Smith and Collins history plus never having started, not very confident in having two healthy centers all year.

Vuc is the 12th highest paid center in the league, he's paid like an above average starter for his position. I also don't think many teams would want him as their backup really, because his production doesn't equal usefulness on the court.

In the end, he's a high volume inefficient player that is one of the worst defenders in the league at the most important defensive position. He's got a lot of skills, but those skills are hard to fit in, and that's why his market is limited. We've been trying to trade him for a year.

As for the Bulls, from a positional depth perspective, they'd need to trade him for a PF/C for it to make sense? They're loaded at 1/3 options. If they can play some Jalen Smith at PF, they're probably best off positionally staying how they are now anyway as they have way more small guys than big guys on the roster.

[Rose2Boozer]

Giddey-33
White-33
Okoro-20
Buzelis-28
Vucevic-28

Jones-15
Huerter-15
Ayo-28
Smith-20
Collins-20

The above rotation is how I would start the season until the trade deadline.

[dougthonus]

I see no scenario where Vuc accepts coming off the bench.

He could easily go to Billy and ask for that but he’s hasn’t and won’t.

Love the idea of him 20mpg off the bench. Even though he still slows us down.

Why do you think there's no scenario Vuc would accept coming off the bench? That seems widely different than "asking for it". I'm sure he'd prefer to start and views himself as a starter, but I don't think there's any reason to think he's so full of himself that he'd refuse to play or become a cancer if we asked him to come off the bench.

[League Circles]

I mean, at the end of the day, he's already on the trade block. What can Vucevic really do? Demand to be traded? He's going to be a free agent, he doesn't want to look bad. He just doesn't seem that type of guy, although I could be wrong. And he could come off the bench and still get 25+ minutes, that would still be WAY better than starting him. He'd mostly be with the bench unit with Huerter and Williams, who aren't exactly sprinters either, lol.

Bringing him off the bench but giving him the most minutes would be a compromise until one gets traded. The coach needs to control the lineup, not the players. Vucevic is not valuable enough to us at this point to force the issue.

Billy calls Vuc into his office. "All three of you are about to be free agents. Love you, I'm fighting for you. Really want to trade Collins or Smith, we're not re-signing both of them. Only way AK trades them is if they up their value. Let Collins start, run up and down the court, get his numbers up. You run the bench, no scorers in the second lineup, green light as playmaker and scorer, get 28-30 minutes, keep your numbers up too. You look like a great team player auditioning for free agency, whether or not you come back here."

Collins has only played 70+ games once, and that's averaging less than 20 minutes a game. So Collins as a full time 30+ minutes starter lasting a season might be a stretch anyway.

IMO Vuc doesn't deserve an ounce of this level of pandering. Billy should just tell him casually that he's coming off the bench cause he thinks it's best for the team. If he asks why Billy can tell him it's because his defense hurts the team way too much relative to alternatives. If he pouts or becomes a cancer he can sit at home the rest of the season. Not like this year is a crucial win/loss season for us and IMO he's gone at the end of the year regardless.

[League Circles]

Here's a friendly way to look at it. Vuc would probably be considered one of the best, most durable backup centers in the league, even at 35. A guy who can actually step up for a contender if the starter gets injured. He plays way more games than a lot of younger guys. He may get $20 mill AAV on his next contract, don't think that's a lot for one of the best backups in the league at center you're confident you're getting 70+ games from.

Like seriously, say we trade Vuc today for a non-center. Given Smith and Collins history plus never having started, not very confident in having two healthy centers all year.

Vuc is the 12th highest paid center in the league, he's paid like an above average starter for his position. I also don't think many teams would want him as their backup really, because his production doesn't equal usefulness on the court.

In the end, he's a high volume inefficient player that is one of the worst defenders in the league at the most important defensive position. He's got a lot of skills, but those skills are hard to fit in, and that's why his market is limited. We've been trying to trade him for a year.

As for the Bulls, from a positional depth perspective, they'd need to trade him for a PF/C for it to make sense? They're loaded at 1/3 options. If they can play some Jalen Smith at PF, they're probably best off positionally staying how they are now anyway as they have way more small guys than big guys on the roster.

This is why I would have tried to trade Vuc for serviceable backup at the 1 before we re-signed Jones, but oh well. Considering his salary I don't think there has been any realistic fit to trade Vuc. I might have tried to get Khris Middleton or someone for him just to get him out of the way, but IF Billy uses him correctly AND he doesn't pout, he can probably help us more this season than any trade alternatives could (example our options behind Giddey at the 3 are already better than Middleton IMO). Those are both questionable IFs though.

[dougthonus]

This is why I would have tried to trade Vuc for serviceable backup at the 1 before we re-signed Jones, but oh well. Considering his salary I don't think there has been any realistic fit to trade Vuc. I might have tried to get Khris Middleton or someone for him just to get him out of the way, but IF Billy uses him correctly AND he doesn't pout, he can probably help us more this season than any trade alternatives could (example our options behind Giddey at the 3 are already better than Middleton IMO). Those are both questionable IFs though.

I think we got Jones just because we liked Jones. We could probably have one less guard and still be fine easily anyway.

Could have maybe traded Vuc for say Marcus Smart (same rough salary, Wiz bought out Smart so presumably may have thought they could buy out Vuc for a bigger savings?). Smart signed for 2/10 with the Lakers, so maybe Vuc couldn't even get that on the FA market though so he may have given the Wiz a bigger discount than Vuc.

Hard to see what that trade could have looked like in reality, and my guess is whomever that guy is you'd get for Vuc, I'd probably rather have Jones than that player.

[League Circles]

This is why I would have tried to trade Vuc for serviceable backup at the 1 before we re-signed Jones, but oh well. Considering his salary I don't think there has been any realistic fit to trade Vuc. I might have tried to get Khris Middleton or someone for him just to get him out of the way, but IF Billy uses him correctly AND he doesn't pout, he can probably help us more this season than any trade alternatives could (example our options behind Giddey at the 3 are already better than Middleton IMO). Those are both questionable IFs though.

I think we got Jones just because we liked Jones. We could probably have one less guard and still be fine easily anyway.

Could have maybe traded Vuc for say Marcus Smart (same rough salary, Wiz bought out Smart so presumably may have thought they could buy out Vuc for a bigger savings?). Smart signed for 2/10 with the Lakers, so maybe Vuc couldn't even get that on the FA market though so he may have given the Wiz a bigger discount than Vuc.

Hard to see what that trade could have looked like in reality, and my guess is whomever that guy is you'd get for Vuc, I'd probably rather have Jones than that player.

Well definitely Jones projects as a better player than anyone we could have likely got, but IMO commiting to a backup for 3 years in the Bulls situation isn't ideal no matter how well matched he might be for it. I like Jones a lot and thought signing him was reasonable Giddey insurance, but now that they're both here, plus an extra guaranteed year for Okoro vs Ball, Ayo needs to go. I've always been extremely hesitant to overcommit to depth when the team isn't pretty clearly high end like in 2011 for example.

[Infinity2152]

I mean, at the end of the day, he's already on the trade block. What can Vucevic really do? Demand to be traded? He's going to be a free agent, he doesn't want to look bad. He just doesn't seem that type of guy, although I could be wrong. And he could come off the bench and still get 25+ minutes, that would still be WAY better than starting him. He'd mostly be with the bench unit with Huerter and Williams, who aren't exactly sprinters either, lol.

Bringing him off the bench but giving him the most minutes would be a compromise until one gets traded. The coach needs to control the lineup, not the players. Vucevic is not valuable enough to us at this point to force the issue.

Billy calls Vuc into his office. "All three of you are about to be free agents. Love you, I'm fighting for you. Really want to trade Collins or Smith, we're not re-signing both of them. Only way AK trades them is if they up their value. Let Collins start, run up and down the court, get his numbers up. You run the bench, no scorers in the second lineup, green light as playmaker and scorer, get 28-30 minutes, keep your numbers up too. You look like a great team player auditioning for free agency, whether or not you come back here."

Collins has only played 70+ games once, and that's averaging less than 20 minutes a game. So Collins as a full time 30+ minutes starter lasting a season might be a stretch anyway.

IMO Vuc doesn't deserve an ounce of this level of pandering. Billy should just tell him casually that he's coming off the bench cause he thinks it's best for the team. If he asks why Billy can tell him it's because his defense hurts the team way too much relative to alternatives. If he pouts or becomes a cancer he can sit at home the rest of the season. Not like this year is a crucial win/loss season for us and IMO he's gone at the end of the year regardless.

I completely agree. He's here now, so no need to keep insulting him. We're clearly trying to trade him. He's getting the money regardless, so I think he's a much better option at sixth man than starting. 12th highest paid center means very little. Most NBA centers are mid to say the least, and there are tons of flaws with the guys who make less than him too. They generally shoot much worse, rebound worse, are worse playmakers, are injured far more often, and have lower BBall IQ. How many high IQ centers are there? Seriously doubt $20 mill is 12th highest center for long, most of those guys starting and making less are far younger and on rookie or second contracts.

Availability is pretty important. How many of those guys making less have started and played the same number of games Vuc has over the last three years?

Vuc shouldn't start for us because we have other options and he doesn't fit our style. Saying he's not a starter is a reach, he's a better overall player than a lot of centers that will start this year, probably including Collins. There are not 30 centers starting better than Vucevic and every team needs a starter.

[dougthonus]

This is why I would have tried to trade Vuc for serviceable backup at the 1 before we re-signed Jones, but oh well. Considering his salary I don't think there has been any realistic fit to trade Vuc. I might have tried to get Khris Middleton or someone for him just to get him out of the way, but IF Billy uses him correctly AND he doesn't pout, he can probably help us more this season than any trade alternatives could (example our options behind Giddey at the 3 are already better than Middleton IMO). Those are both questionable IFs though.

I think we got Jones just because we liked Jones. We could probably have one less guard and still be fine easily anyway.

Could have maybe traded Vuc for say Marcus Smart (same rough salary, Wiz bought out Smart so presumably may have thought they could buy out Vuc for a bigger savings?). Smart signed for 2/10 with the Lakers, so maybe Vuc couldn't even get that on the FA market though so he may have given the Wiz a bigger discount than Vuc.

Hard to see what that trade could have looked like in reality, and my guess is whomever that guy is you'd get for Vuc, I'd probably rather have Jones than that player.

Well definitely Jones projects as a better player than anyone we could have likely got, but IMO commiting to a backup for 3 years in the Bulls situation isn't ideal no matter how well matched he might be for it. I like Jones a lot and thought signing him was reasonable Giddey insurance, but now that they're both here, plus an extra guaranteed year for Okoro vs Ball, Ayo needs to go. I've always been extremely hesitant to overcommit to depth when the team isn't pretty clearly high end like in 2011 for example.

Worth noting the Bulls are only committed to Jones for 2 years, 3rd year is a team option if i recall correctly. I think historically your view of not committing to depth made a lot of sense, now the question is what else will we do with our cap room in the heavy extension era? I think if you get good contracts it is more valuable than cap room. Whether Jones is that good of a contract remains to be seen, I could see it working out that way.

[Chi town]

I see no scenario where Vuc accepts coming off the bench.

He could easily go to Billy and ask for that but he’s hasn’t and won’t.

Love the idea of him 20mpg off the bench. Even though he still slows us down.

Why do you think there's no scenario Vuc would accept coming off the bench? That seems widely different than "asking for it". I'm sure he'd prefer to start and views himself as a starter, but I don't think there's any reason to think he's so full of himself that he'd refuse to play or become a cancer if we asked him to come off the bench.

Vuc is the biggest pouter on the team. Hes also the oldest and most accomplished.

Lots of guys like him across the league are so unaware and live in the glory days. He resigned to start here not come off the bench. That’s my guess for his response. Billy is also very loyal and players coach. Don’t think he’d ask him to come off the bench or tell him.

Considering the Bulls are developing players this season I’d think that will be Billy’s memo to reduce his mins. Will be shocked if he comes off the bench.

[MikeDC]

1. I don't even believe in the premise that most fans seem to that you need to "see what you have" in a player. It's nonsense. The team sees dramatically more of what they "have" in a player than what's in the game. The coaches and the players know who the best players are already. In the cases where the best player isn't playing, it's usually pretty evident why and boils down to a couple of obvious reasons. Some of which are constructive, and some of which are destructive and really piss people off.

2. I read once but have been unable to find a study that convincingly told me that an young player does need game time to develop, but the marginal benefit levels off at a reasonably low level, like ~800-900 minutes. I think the way Matas was brought along last year was exactly right.

With those guidelines in place, the starting group should be the same guys who started at the end of last year until it's evident that someone else is better.
- My preference would be for Collins over Vuc, but realistically, the difference isn't so big that Vuc having seniority is really going to be a big deal.
- My belief is that the Bulls margin of error on offense is very small because they have very little offensive talent relative to the better teams. This is why Heurter gets first crack at the non-obvious job.

Those of you who think they need to "balance" offense and defense are flat out wrong. The Bulls last year were a basically average defensive team and still a below average offensive team. If you think putting Okoro on the floor instead of Heurter is going to make them a significantly different defensive team, I don't see how you think that. Okoro has never showed anything like that. It's just not going to move the needle. You'd get a bigger boost by starting a better defensive center (Collins). That's the position that has the single biggest impact, and you're upgrading from a guy who is certifiably bad to a guy who's generally considered OK.

Heurter doesn't actually seem to be a terrible defender at all. He's fine, and Okoro is above average at one specific defensive thing, but I don't think anyone has ever considered him to be a really elite defender. That switch just won't move the needle defensively. But unless Okoro just comes in killing and shooting dramatically more and better, he's gonna be a massive downgrade on offense. Where we can least afford to have a downgrade.

If I were the Bulls, until someone beats them out, I'd be doing:
Starting and closing lineup:
Coby 34, Noa 8, ?? mystery meat ?? 6
Heurter - 30, Okoro/Ayo/Terry/Pat/Noa 18
Giddey - 34, Jones 14
Matas - 34, Pat 14
Vuc - 26, Collins 22

If I had my way, I'd trade Vuc and Ayo before the season starts if it could get me picks or any player who looked interesting offensively or a center who might be worth a try.

[WesPeace]

At the moment like this :
Giddey - 32
White - 32
Okoro - 18
Buzelis - 32
Vucevic - 24

Jones - 18
Dosunmu - 22
Huerter - 22
PWill -16
Collins and Smith combined - 24

But things could change a lot in next months..

[Evil_Headband]

Maybe this is cheating for this exercise, but I would like to mostly see open competitions in camp.

The only players that I would start no matter what are Giddey and White. Two center slots completely open. Starting PF? Open between Williams and Buzelis. Final starter? Ayo, Okoro, Jones, Huerter should all have a shot.

[dougthonus]

Vuc is the biggest pouter on the team. Hes also the oldest and most accomplished.

Lots of guys like him across the league are so unaware and live in the glory days. He resigned to start here not come off the bench. That’s my guess for his response. Billy is also very loyal and players coach. Don’t think he’d ask him to come off the bench or tell him.

Considering the Bulls are developing players this season I’d think that will be Billy’s memo to reduce his mins. Will be shocked if he comes off the bench.

He's some times pouty on the floor, but I've never seen any evidence that he is disruptive in the locker room or would refuse to play a specific role. Given he will almost certainly come off the bench for any contender he goes to, it seems unlikely that he'd want to refuse that role here if he's looking for a new destination as doing so (or being a cancer in general) would likely diminish his chances to land somewhere else which is likely his goal.

As far as the Bulls, we may behave exactly like you say and start him anyway. Donovan may be loyal to him for the reasons you stated. That's a different argument than Vuc refusing to come off the bench though. I definitely think there is a good chance we opt to start him.

[Infinity2152]

Maybe this is cheating for this exercise, but I would like to mostly see open competitions in camp.

The only players that I would start no matter what are Giddey and White. Two center slots completely open. Starting PF? Open between Williams and Buzelis. Final starter? Ayo, Okoro, Jones, Huerter should all have a shot.

Like this thought, but Matas is a must start to me along with Coby and Giddey. The other two spots should go to the camp battle winners. Williams can compete for starting SF, who knows how he'll show up? Would prioritize players who are not expiring and are likely to be here next year.

A great reward for the Bulls would be a motivated, improved Pat Will. Hopefully the addition of Matas, Essengue, and Okoro make him want to step up. Talentwise, he could still be pretty damn good, and he's gone from the 19 yr old on a squad with multiple veteran All-stars to being a vet on a much younger team. Optimistic, but not impossible.

[League Circles]

Maybe this is cheating for this exercise, but I would like to mostly see open competitions in camp.

The only players that I would start no matter what are Giddey and White. Two center slots completely open. Starting PF? Open between Williams and Buzelis. Final starter? Ayo, Okoro, Jones, Huerter should all have a shot.

Like this thought, but Matas is a must start to me along with Coby and Giddey. The other two spots should go to the camp battle winners. Williams can compete for starting SF, who knows how he'll show up? Would prioritize players who are not expiring and are likely to be here next year.

A great reward for the Bulls would be a motivated, improved Pat Will. Hopefully the addition of Matas, Essengue, and Okoro make him want to step up. Talentwise, he could still be pretty damn good, and he's gone from the 19 yr old on a squad with multiple veteran All-stars to being a vet on a much younger team. Optimistic, but not impossible.

I think most of us agree that camp performance should impact all of this. But since camp hasn't happened yet and I didn't want to introduce guess work by all into this, the idea is to state how you'd play the guys based on what we know today.