Which players would be exposed with inferior teams?

[Optms]

The three that immediately come to mind are Duncan, Steph and Kobe.

Perhaps Bird as well.

Unlike Duncan and Kobe, Curry was not drafted to a good team or situation at all. The Dubs were in fact a dumpster fire. Steph comes in and turns them into a dynasty. Like how is it Steph?

Because of Klay, Iggy, Bogut and Draymond. Not even going to mention Durant.

Literal off ball stars that got converted into "role players" basically setting the floor for 50 wins on any given year.

Steph with an off night? No worries, here is Klay with 8 threes, 30 on 15 shots.

Steph out with an injury? No worries, here is an elite defense with multiple all defense caliber players to suffocate the opposition.

Steph basically with one of the all time most favorable circumstances. He ain't having that career in Washington or Sacramento.

Curry made those guys with his gravity.

And KD? Good one. The Dubs were a dynasty level team long before he ever arrived. If it wasn't for the GOAT LeBron, the Dubs would have dominated the NBA in the late 2010s. Fast forward to 2022 - Curry then carried a washed Klay and Green to another title. No KD, No iggy. No bogut. Stop the slander, he's been the greatest most impactful player outside of Lebron

[Karate Diop]

Steph Curry. We saw him flat out quit and milk a minor injury in order to sit out when he was on his own (because of injuries) and asked to be an Alpha... He's not built to elevate a team by himself.

[doogie_hauser]

Luka Doncic is the first player that sprang to my mind

[Lalouie]

"Michael Jordan didn't win until..."

that's not the question

[pepe1991]

The three that immediately come to mind are Duncan, Steph and Kobe.

Perhaps Bird as well.

Unlike Duncan and Kobe, Curry was not drafted to a good team or situation at all. The Dubs were in fact a dumpster fire. Steph comes in and turns them into a dynasty. Like how is it Steph?

Because of Klay, Iggy, Bogut and Draymond. Not even going to mention Durant.

Literal off ball stars that got converted into "role players" basically setting the floor for 50 wins on any given year.

Steph with an off night? No worries, here is Klay with 8 threes, 30 on 15 shots.

Steph out with an injury? No worries, here is an elite defense with multiple all defense caliber players to suffocate the opposition.

Steph basically with one of the all time most favorable circumstances. He ain't having that career in Washington or Sacramento.

Steph won 47 games with Warriors in 2012-13 with those 4 starters:

second year Klay Thompson (16 ppg)
David Lee
Harrison Barnes ( 20 years old rookie )
Bogut (32 games, broke leg or something like that ) / Ezili ( 41 games as starter)

off bench: Jarret Jack.

And that is team that Curry took to 6 games in second round vs Spurs, who went to finals ( and lost title on The shot of Allen ). In playoffs David Lee torn his hip flexor and was replaced by Draymoond, who was, btw a rookie who averaged 2,9 ppg prior.

During very same season, in very same West, Demarcus Cousins is winning 28 games with:
Isaiah Thomas
Tyreke Evans
Jason Thompson
John Salmons

And Wizards, with Wall are having 29 wins season with this supporting cast around Wall:
Beal
Nene
Ariza
Emeka Okafor
Webster


In reality, Curry contributes to winning more than vast majority of other stars because he provides gravity nobody else in nba ever had. Whole team is alerted on defense as soon as he gets near ball as soon as ball is walked over half court. That gravity makes it easy for everybody else to exploit free pockets of space and attack rim.
Even in games at Olympics vs Serbia it's obvious how his range and ability to pass breaks game. Serbia played really tough, had solid control over Embiid, Durant and Lebron. But once Steph got hot there was nothing they could do about. You just can't mentally prepare defense to chase person 40 feet from rim, because that's not natural for anybody. And if you do, and you try to trap him, he will still pass ball on side of the floor where secondary defender left his man wide open.

Also those "stars" you mention who played with him:
Draymoond- guy turned into official allstar after they won title
Klay was first time allstar in same year they won first title
Igoudala was once in a life all star player, averaging 12 ppg. East was so bad that year that Roy Hibbert was all star with him. It was so bad that Deng was all star for first time, while playing one of worst seasons of his life up until that point. So let's not pretend Curry's first title was on some super stacked team. By same logic Hawks should have won it in 2015, they had 5 all stars on team + future World Cup & Eurobasket MVP.

Durant is only actual megastar he played with. And him and Durant were unbeatable.

[UcanUwill]

Luka Doncic is the first player that sprang to my mind

Yeah, he sure looked exposed playing for Slovenia rofl /sarcasm

Luka never even had a good team in the NBA really and still made finals once.

Is there a one player that is antithesis to this question, its Luka Doncic.

[druggas]

LeBorn James. When the Celts were kicking his butt, he quit.

[dhsilv2]

Good lord. People in here really saying one of the most versatile defenders oat, one of the best pnr and transition defenders oat, one of the best defenders ever period would get exposed on another team. A great passer too. It’s definitely not draymond.

You should be thinking one dimensional guys that fit specific systems. Aaron Gordon, which we already saw in Orlando. All of the heat role players who constantly trick people.

Draymond Green was a bench player before David Lee got injured. If Marc Jackson remained the coach of the Warriors or Green was on a different team he may have never made an all-star team.

I agree that he was the 2nd best player on the Warriors and very important to them, but I don’t know how well he does if he’s drafted by Charlotte.

Lee was an all-star. Gets injured. Draymond takes his spot in the starting lineup. They go 19-3 when Lee is out and Draymond never goes back to the bench. He earned his spot.

We should also mention, Dray was in his 3rd year when that happened. He'd gone from 13 minutes a game to 22 from year 1 to 2. It wasn't likely he wasn't already making some noise and getting more playing time before Kerr. That's kinda how it works when you're not a big name draft pick. you have to earn your spot, but it's pretty clear he earned his rotation spot as a rookie, being a second rounder, and had become a key rotation player by his second year.

Maybe he doesn't get the award and accolades. But even by year 2 he was a 99th% defender. The fact he was able to get a solid 22 minutes a game behind Lee already showed he was making headway.

I'd add he also started 4 of 7 playoff games in 2014. And even as a rookie he went up to near 19 minutes a game in the playoffs. Normally guys like Dray see reduced roles in the playoffs, instead he saw his role increase even before he was a starter.

[dhsilv2]

‘Exposed’ is really a terrible word, it’s only going to help make this a lame argument. All good nba players are completely sick at basketball, they’re not like dudes at the gym who get shown up when real athletes come through, or guys at your middle school who looked good until playing a real team with AAU dudes in the state PO. You’re not going to ‘expose’ some good/great nba player and show that they’re actually mediocre or whatever. ‘Exposing’ that they’re frauds.

Luckily lots of posters here have rewritten the assignment so that it’s more like ‘who wouldn’t be as famous or well respected if they played in worse or less remarkable teams.’

This is largely true, but there is nuance. There are players who

1. surprise by 'making it' (2nd rounders, undrafted guys)

2. surprise by ending up out of the league in relatively short order despite being "sick" basketball players (top draft picks, mainly).

3. are end-of-the-bench flotsam and get into the right system and thrive and become regular rotation guys (Jeremy Lin, Damon Jones)

4. start out in the right system and can't make it anywhere else (Dennis Scott, Nick Anderson, Jeremy Lin)

5. kind of get out of the gate slowly and look like they're not gonna make it and they suddenly excel (Chauncey Billups, Ben Wallace, Kyle Lowry, Jermaine O'Neal all come to mind here).

6. just fizzle out after being very good (Marbury, Steve Francis, Shawn Kemp, Vin Baker)

7. have career years, get a big contract and go back to being (relative) scrubs: Raef LaFrentz, Erick Dampier, Eddy Curry, Brian Cardinal, Hassan Whiteside, Carlos Arroyo.

I like this listing.

I actually think the last point aka contract year players is an item that isn’t talked about a lot. A guy who plays good with a day his final year and gets signed by another team and he falls off a cliff.

I also think sometimes signing or trading for a player and never finding his niche on the new teams system happens a lot. I think of Richard Jefferson when he was with the Spurs. He never found his niche and despite talent upgrade compared to Bowen, I thought he umm sucked animal parts when he was with the Spurs.

I think he was the inverse, was “exposed” for being on a superior team.

Jefferson is the perfect example of how scoring isn't remotely important. People saw that Jefferson could be a 20 a game scorer and thought he'd be great for the Spurs. But the problem is scoring doesn't scale well. Elite shooting scales. Passing scales. Team defense scales. From there you have second tier stuff. Ball handling has decent scaling. Screening, off ball action has decent scaling. Man defense even can scale ok. Iso scoring or volume offense? It's about the least valuable skillset to have unless you're truly exceptional.

[dhsilv2]

I don't really get the Draymond mentions. I mean, I get that people fetishize scoring, but like... he's a DPOY who can pass. That's a guy who has value on any team. Yeah, you need to put him with guys who can score, but that was true of, say, Bruce Bowen... and Draymond is a considerably better playmaker than Bowen. People need to catch up to 2025 and realize that you don't need to be a 20 ppg scorer to be valuable. And they need to appreciate the utility of Draymond's defensive impact.

The thing is before Draymond was in the league how many offenses utilized their PF or C as a hub? The only other player like him before him was Boris Diaw and teams weren't trying to cultivate Boris Diaw style players.

Warriors also were run and gun small ball. How many people were drafting undersized 6'7 centers and expecting them or giving them a chance to anchor a defense in early 2010s?

That is the point I was at least trying to make. To develop you need to be in the right circumstance. He was taken 35th overall so I am not sure what roster was gonna be built with him as a foundational or key piece. Imagine some coach on Charlotte saying I want to build around the 6'7, 35th pick as my starting C and to use him as a passer and an offensive hub?

Likely wouldn't happen.

Nobody would or should try and draft a guy like Green for this stuff. But when you find a unicorn, you take advantage. There's no way anyone could have envisioned Dray becoming what he was because he's just unique. But any coach with even half a brain would find value from him. As I noted earlier, even Jackson, a terrible coach, ended up moving him into his starting lineup in the playoffs.

[SA37]

Spoiler:

This is largely true, but there is nuance. There are players who

1. surprise by 'making it' (2nd rounders, undrafted guys)

2. surprise by ending up out of the league in relatively short order despite being "sick" basketball players (top draft picks, mainly).

3. are end-of-the-bench flotsam and get into the right system and thrive and become regular rotation guys (Jeremy Lin, Damon Jones)

4. start out in the right system and can't make it anywhere else (Dennis Scott, Nick Anderson, Jeremy Lin)

5. kind of get out of the gate slowly and look like they're not gonna make it and they suddenly excel (Chauncey Billups, Ben Wallace, Kyle Lowry, Jermaine O'Neal all come to mind here).

6. just fizzle out after being very good (Marbury, Steve Francis, Shawn Kemp, Vin Baker)

7. have career years, get a big contract and go back to being (relative) scrubs: Raef LaFrentz, Erick Dampier, Eddy Curry, Brian Cardinal, Hassan Whiteside, Carlos Arroyo.

I like this listing.

I actually think the last point aka contract year players is an item that isn’t talked about a lot. A guy who plays good with a day his final year and gets signed by another team and he falls off a cliff.

I also think sometimes signing or trading for a player and never finding his niche on the new teams system happens a lot. I think of Richard Jefferson when he was with the Spurs. He never found his niche and despite talent upgrade compared to Bowen, I thought he umm sucked animal parts when he was with the Spurs.

I think he was the inverse, was “exposed” for being on a superior team.

Jefferson is the perfect example of how scoring isn't remotely important. People saw that Jefferson could be a 20 a game scorer and thought he'd be great for the Spurs. But the problem is scoring doesn't scale well. Elite shooting scales. Passing scales. Team defense scales. From there you have second tier stuff. Ball handling has decent scaling. Screening, off ball action has decent scaling. Man defense even can scale ok. Iso scoring or volume offense? It's about the least valuable skillset to have unless you're truly exceptional.

Scoring is important, but not necessarily from your role players unless their job is specifically to score. Those guys usually end up being 6th men -- Jamal Crawford, Jason Terry, Lou Williams, Vinnie Johnson are all good examples of this.

[dhsilv2]

Spoiler:

I like this listing.

I actually think the last point aka contract year players is an item that isn’t talked about a lot. A guy who plays good with a day his final year and gets signed by another team and he falls off a cliff.

I also think sometimes signing or trading for a player and never finding his niche on the new teams system happens a lot. I think of Richard Jefferson when he was with the Spurs. He never found his niche and despite talent upgrade compared to Bowen, I thought he umm sucked animal parts when he was with the Spurs.

I think he was the inverse, was “exposed” for being on a superior team.

Jefferson is the perfect example of how scoring isn't remotely important. People saw that Jefferson could be a 20 a game scorer and thought he'd be great for the Spurs. But the problem is scoring doesn't scale well. Elite shooting scales. Passing scales. Team defense scales. From there you have second tier stuff. Ball handling has decent scaling. Screening, off ball action has decent scaling. Man defense even can scale ok. Iso scoring or volume offense? It's about the least valuable skillset to have unless you're truly exceptional.

Scoring is important, but not necessarily from your role players unless their job is specifically to score. Those guys usually end up being 6th men -- Jamal Crawford, Jason Terry, Lou Williams, Vinnie Johnson are all good examples of this.

It's vastly overrated from casual fans just in general. And even the writers will often over value scrubs like Lavine and DD who are just scoring to fill up plays while adding no value.

[xb3at band1tx]

Luka Doncic is the first player that sprang to my mind

he’s never had a perfectly good team but I think you know that