Bucks News, Transactions, Trade Ideas - Media Day 9/29, Camp Opens 9/30

[Ron Swanson]

Way too much worry about "fit" when this team is still incredibly starved for young, high upside talent that's a necessity to winning another championship in the Giannis era. I don't even like Kuminga that much, but players like him and in his situation are basically your best (only?) bet at developing that foundational/core player when you don't have high draft picks.

[emunney]

Way too much worry about "fit" when this team is still incredibly starved for young, high upside talent that's a necessity to winning another championship in the Giannis era. I don't even like Kuminga that much, but players like him and in his situation are basically your best (only?) bet at developing that foundational/core player when you don't have high draft picks.

With any trade, it depends on what we're giving up. Kuminga's a bad fit but not in such a unique way that I'd totally disqualify him, particularly since he's young and [theoretically] not done evolving as a player.

Just in principle, I agree that a player in Kuminga's situation is roughly the only type of player at his talent level we're going to have a shot at, but I don't think it follows that means we should go for it with Kuminga, but that we should approach the suggestion thoughtfully and really investigate all the implications. I would lean against in this case but I could be convinced, particularly if all we're giving up is Kuzma/Dre and not taking on a lot of salary.

[emunney]

Personally think DD is more likely to come here with kuminga going to the kings in a 3 way deal

Kuzma goes to Golden State in this scenario (who'd likely need to send out Moody or Hield with Kuminga to make the numbers work), or what did you have in mind?

DeRozan's partially guaranteed second year on his contract certainly could be more valuable as filler salary than Kuz at the deadline or next offseason.

But even with a significant asset attached (Devin Carter let's say) idk if the Bucks see DeMar as a good enough fit to be worth the trouble.

For that matter, Doc / Horst highly valuing a big athletic versatile forward is also where I'm not shutting the door on the Bucks potentially -- still -- being interested in Kuminga....at least if the price gets low enough.

Serious question here why would kuminga be a better fit next to giannis thsn DD when the majority of this board has stated he cant shoot 3s n only csn score from down low.Dont understand why its lets trade for kuminga n not DD.If between the 2 why is DD not a way better fit.You know what you will get from him 18 plus pts a game high effeciancy shooter great ft shooter never hurt.Yet he doesnt fit next to giannis n kuminga does ?

Not sure he would be but the argument is that DD is 36 years old and is a grinder at this stage, not the kind of guy you'd want to add to a team who's looking to push tempo to take advantage of their other personnel.

[raferfenix]

Putting aside what assets we’d need to include to upgrade Kuzma to Kuminga as well as the merits of that player type…

Kuzma’s $22.4M (declining) salary is just under the peak of what Golden State may be willing to take on without having to include Hield or Moody in the deal.

Keith Smart laid out the cap mechanics of a Golden State sign and trade:

In a sign-and-trade transaction, Base Year Compensation (BYC) can come into play. BYC is triggered when a Bird or Early Bird free agent re-signs with an over-the-cap team as a part of a sign-and-trade and gets a contract that is 20% larger than his previous deal. When BYC is triggered, the player’s outgoing salary in trade is 50% of the new salary figure, while being 100% of the salary amount on the incoming side.

Let’s keep it simple in an example involving Kuminga. If the Warriors are going to sign-and-trade Kuminga, let’s say it’s happening at a first-year salary of $30 million, which seems to be where Kuminga would like to land in a new deal. That means on the Warriors side of the trade, he’d count for $15 million, while counting at the full $30 million amount on the acquiring side.

Now, because the expanded salary-matching rules allow for Golden State to take back an additional $8.5 million in a deal where they send out $15 million, they could return a salary of roughly $23.5 million for Kuminga.

https://www.spotrac.com/news/_/id/2960/the-short-and-long-term-implications-for-jonathan-kuminga-and-the-warriors

Slater / Shams reported out why that $22.5M number is what they've been accounting for as well:

The Warriors have planned to at least use their taxpayer midlevel -- Al Horford is the target -- and have had strong discussions with veterans De'Anthony Melton, Gary Payton II and Seth Curry, sources said. It's why Curry, Butler and Green are not agitating behind the scenes. They know the strategy, sources said, and have approved that anticipated result.

But the tentative plan hard caps them at the second apron and means $22.5 million is the most they could give Kuminga next season while holding 15 rostered players, a figure that has so far proven too low for Kuminga to accept in a multiyear deal attached to a team option.

https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/46210422/inside-warriors-stalemate-jonathan-kuminga

[Ron Swanson]

Way too much worry about "fit" when this team is still incredibly starved for young, high upside talent that's a necessity to winning another championship in the Giannis era. I don't even like Kuminga that much, but players like him and in his situation are basically your best (only?) bet at developing that foundational/core player when you don't have high draft picks.

With any trade, it depends on what we're giving up. Kuminga's a bad fit but not in such a unique way that I'd totally disqualify him, particularly since he's young and [theoretically] not done evolving as a player.

Just in principle, I agree that a player in Kuminga's situation is roughly the only type of player at his talent level we're going to have a shot at, but I don't think it follows that means we should go for it with Kuminga, but that we should approach the suggestion thoughtfully and really investigate all the implications. I would lean against in this case but I could be convinced, particularly if all we're giving up is Kuzma/Dre and not taking on a lot of salary.

The philosophy is that pretty much every "extend the championship window" situation of past stars has required lucking into or aggressively acquiring another All-Star type player. Spurs traded George Hill for Kawhi as Duncan's career wound down, Kobe got Pau in the final half of his prime years that netted two additional rings. Hell, I think Aaron Gordon and 2022 Andrew Wiggins both apply here as well. Both guys were at that point dismissed as draft disappointments but then immediately became super role-players and Top 3-4 guys on championship teams. Throw in that if people really want this team to embrace an identity of pushing the pace with young, athletic, versatile players, then I can't see why you would be against rolling the dice on Kuminga.

[nagawicka]

Teague wants to be relevant. He's not.

On that metric, none of the talking heads, analysts veteran and amateur alike, or former player podcasters are relevant.
So how does your comment apply or contribute.
Teague's provided on-point inside information on playing for the Bucks, and on-floor dynamics with Giannis, both of which are relevant to Bucks' long-term style & decision-making, flawed play, and inability to turn Giannis's career into multiple Bucks championships. I really didn't like Teague's play while on the Bucks, he'd stand aside not so much involved; turns out I was wrong: as Teague notes for the record, whild you can have two point guards on the court at once, you'd damn well better be sure the one capable of playing point guard is the one actually playing point guard. Secondarily but equally key, it's literally not possible for one player to play two positions at the same time: no one is occupying the power forward position whenever giannis has assigned himself somebody else's position, along with their role. Players slide over, help out, but nothing can cover up the fact that 'the best player' is not at those times playing 'the position of greatest impact' going against his key rivals at that prime spot. A nice idea. In practice it doesn't work nearly as well as folks really really want it to work in this idealized nonreality world. The fact that Giannis and the Bucks have no more than a single championship title to show for it only confirms the strategy hasn't gone anywhere.

[emunney]

Way too much worry about "fit" when this team is still incredibly starved for young, high upside talent that's a necessity to winning another championship in the Giannis era. I don't even like Kuminga that much, but players like him and in his situation are basically your best (only?) bet at developing that foundational/core player when you don't have high draft picks.

With any trade, it depends on what we're giving up. Kuminga's a bad fit but not in such a unique way that I'd totally disqualify him, particularly since he's young and [theoretically] not done evolving as a player.

Just in principle, I agree that a player in Kuminga's situation is roughly the only type of player at his talent level we're going to have a shot at, but I don't think it follows that means we should go for it with Kuminga, but that we should approach the suggestion thoughtfully and really investigate all the implications. I would lean against in this case but I could be convinced, particularly if all we're giving up is Kuzma/Dre and not taking on a lot of salary.

The philosophy is that pretty much every "extend the championship window" situation of past stars has required lucking into or aggressively acquiring another All-Star type player. Spurs traded George Hill for Kawhi as Duncan's career wound down, Kobe got Pau in the final half of his prime years that netted two additional rings. Hell, I think Aaron Gordon and 2022 Andrew Wiggins both apply here as well. Both guys were at that point dismissed as draft disappointments but then immediately became super role-players and Top 3-4 guys on championship teams. Throw in that if people really want this team to embrace an identity of pushing the pace with young, athletic, versatile players, then I can't see why you would be against rolling the dice on Kuminga.

I can tell you why I lean against it. I think putting him on the court with Giannis would make us an easier team to defend and would hurt them both. I think it'd be harder to get out in transition with him on the court because he has bad instincts and his pursuit of the ball is slow, so we'd struggle to end possessions. And I think it'd foreclose the possibility of us being in the mix for one of the next guys, who might have a more palatable set of issues. I'm not sure what makes him so much more appealing than like Bol Bol, who we could get for free.

[Daver]

Still tbink it will be a 3 way btween warriors/ kings/ bucks
Thinking my hot colombian wife my sexy peruvian neighbor lady and .......ooops sorry wrong 3 way was thinking of something else lol it will be kuminga to kings DD plus ? to bucks n kuzma/ jax plus ? to warriora

[raferfenix]

With any trade, it depends on what we're giving up. Kuminga's a bad fit but not in such a unique way that I'd totally disqualify him, particularly since he's young and [theoretically] not done evolving as a player.

Bucks probably asked at least what it'd take to swap Kuzma for Kuminga.

Per Brett Siegal a month ago:

It is also worth mentioning that the Milwaukee Bucks were another team that kicked around the idea of pursuing Kuminga. If they were to do so, the Warriors made it known they would want Bobby Portis in a sign-and-trade scenario, which is something Milwaukee wasn't willing to do.

The Dubs have held interest in Portis dating back to before the 2024 NBA trade deadline.

https://clutchpoints.com/nba/golden-state-warriors/warriors-complications-jonathan-kuminga-malik-monk-kings-trade

[Daver]

With any trade, it depends on what we're giving up. Kuminga's a bad fit but not in such a unique way that I'd totally disqualify him, particularly since he's young and [theoretically] not done evolving as a player.

Just in principle, I agree that a player in Kuminga's situation is roughly the only type of player at his talent level we're going to have a shot at, but I don't think it follows that means we should go for it with Kuminga, but that we should approach the suggestion thoughtfully and really investigate all the implications. I would lean against in this case but I could be convinced, particularly if all we're giving up is Kuzma/Dre and not taking on a lot of salary.

The philosophy is that pretty much every "extend the championship window" situation of past stars has required lucking into or aggressively acquiring another All-Star type player. Spurs traded George Hill for Kawhi as Duncan's career wound down, Kobe got Pau in the final half of his prime years that netted two additional rings. Hell, I think Aaron Gordon and 2022 Andrew Wiggins both apply here as well. Both guys were at that point dismissed as draft disappointments but then immediately became super role-players and Top 3-4 guys on championship teams. Throw in that if people really want this team to embrace an identity of pushing the pace with young, athletic, versatile players, then I can't see why you would be against rolling the dice on Kuminga.

I can tell you why I lean against it. I think putting him on the court with Giannis would make us an easier team to defend and would hurt them both. I think it'd be harder to get out in transition with him on the court because he has bad instincts and his pursuit of the ball is slow, so we'd struggle to end possessions. And I think it'd foreclose the possibility of us being in the mix for one of the next guys, who might have a more palatable set of issues. I'm not sure what makes him so much more appealing than like Bol Bol, who we could get for free.

You dont think a 36 year old DD can do what kuminga does plus bring alot more to the table.I disagree i dont think hes a plodder he got up n down the court well in sactown.Has a high IQ n can still shoot n score n defend from whst ive seen

[Ron Swanson]

I think we're already a pretty easy team to defend just like we were in the playoffs vs. Indiana, so I don't really care if Kuminga isn't some perfect fit. Like the age and pedigree would suggest, he theoretically can still improve quite a bit, but I also don't think something like 3-yrs, $75 million prevents us from "pursuing the next guy" even if he doesn't morph into that player I'd hope he can.

[slos]

I'm just trying to build a Kuminga trade here.

- First step salaries

A. Financially you need Kuzma's 22.4 mil salary.
B. Kuminga's new salary counts only for Milwaukee.
C. Kuminga counts half his new salary for Warriors.

Taking into account the 7.5 mil rule Kuzma for Kuminga works in a straight trade with Kuminga getting a starting salary of 29,821,210 mil. That looks huge, but if you make it a declining contract it's close to Turner's money.

29,821,210
28,330,149
26,913,642
25,567,959
...................
110,632,960

Maybe a 4/100 is possible if somehow Kuzma counts for less. It's a bit complicated with his bonuses and trade kicker. I've seen him counting for 21ish money, which would make it work even better.

- Second step value

Bucks might be OK paying that money to Kuminga, Warriors shouldn't be happy with a straight swap for Kuzma. Bucks need to add sweeteners. I'm not giving up a 1st or Green for Kuminga, so this is the best offer Bucks can make.

1. Tyler Smith
2. Andre Jackson Jr
3. two SRPs

Warriors can absorb Smith and Jackson as minimum salaries, spots won't be an issue since they will have 5 open, financially they will be 11 mil under the 2nd apron which allows them to sign Horford with their tax-MLE.

How the Bucks send SRPs without owning any? You need a third team for this part of the trade. With Smith and AJJ Bucks can take another contract up to 8,6 mil. Lots of candidates here with half the league being already in or close to the tax.

- Final proposal

Bucks in Kuminga, Fontecchio
Warriors in Kuzma, Jackson, Smith, MIA 2031 and 2032 SRPs
Miami in nada

Why Bucks? They get better forwards without spending many assets. They basically just get more money in this deal, but won't be an issue this season since they will be at 185,625 mil, which leaves them 2,27 mil breathing space under the tax with their roster complete.

KPJ.........Rollins.........Anthony
GTJ.........Green.........Harris
Kuminga...Fontecchio...Thanasis
Giannis.....Prince.........Livingston
Turner......Portis..........Sims

Why Warriors? They get a replacement for Kuminga and spare parts to move on.

Curry........Moody
Podz........Hield
Butler.......Santos....AJJ
Green.......Kuzma....Smith
Horford.....Post.......TJD

Why Miami? Bucks paid the same price for expiring Pat to create cap space. Miami unloads a similar expiring to avoid the tax in a season they seem to compete just for a play in spot.

[raferfenix]

I'm just trying to build a Kuminga trade here.

Appreciate your detailed run through!

Few questions on my mind:

1. Do the Bucks envision Kuminga as a long term starting SF here? Turner and Bobby offering a maximal amount of shooting at the 5 makes it more possible than in Golden State, but it does preclude fully surrounding Giannis with 3-point bombers, even if we think Kuminga will improve his shooting as he develops.

2. What kind of contract would the Bucks be willing to give Kuminga? The $110M over 4 declining deal you laid out is similar to what Giddey got but significantly bigger than the $90M over 4 the Suns reportedly offered as well as the $63M over 3 from the Kings. If the Bucks would get a team option in there that’d change the dynamic but knowing Horst he’d be more liable to negotiate a player option.

3. What else is in the deal? Bucks only having to trade 2nds and Smith/Ajax in your scenario is very different than a future first or swap much less AJ Green. Depending on the sign and trade contact numbers the Warriors might also need to include Hield or Moody which changes up the other asset valuation too.

4. Does Golden State value Kuzma? The Kuminga talks we reportedly had fell through when they insisted on Bobby (in what would have been a very complicated dual sign and trade). If they don’t envision Kuz doing at least ok enough in the same role Kuminga is refusing to play on the same contract they’re offering him (which they’d be paying tons in tax to have if only as a tradeable salary slot that’d otherwise expire in tandem with their rebuild plans), then this scenario is moot without Kuz heading to a different team.

[emunney]

Dre and Tyler Smith for Dalen Terry and a future 2nd

[Ron Swanson]

Get Dink (tee hee) Pate here on a two-way contract.

[soxperry]

There is a story about how Stephen King got addicted to this cd. It was the instrumental version of Mambo No. 5. He played it so much that at one point his wife told him that if he played it one more time she would divorce him.

This is how i feel about the word Kuminga.

[emunney]

There is a story about how Stephen King got addicted to this cd. It was the instrumental version of Mambo No. 5. He played it so much that at one point his wife told him that if he played it one more time she would divorce him.

This is how i feel about the word Kuminga.

You don't want a little bit of Jonathan in your life?

[FlagsFlyForever]

Teague wants to be relevant. He's not.

Teague is absolutely relevant. He hosts the #2 basketball podcast and his clips get posted everywhere during the NBA season. He's far more relevant today than he ever was as a player.

It doesn't even matter. He played on the Bucks with TA and has insight to share.

[CharityStripe34]

Blowing our wad for Kuminga would, to me, come with a hint of desperation. While he's certainly talented I don't see it with him. I could totally be wrong.

[Profound23]

Teague wants to be relevant. He's not.

Teague is absolutely relevant. He hosts the #2 basketball podcast and his clips get posted everywhere during the NBA season. He's far more relevant today than he ever was as a player.

It doesn't even matter. He played on the Bucks with TA and has insight to share.

He also makes a lot of stuff up. Whoever listens to the dude lie about sh.. is making him relevant and it's about time they blocked him out.