Top 25 peaks of the 2001-25: #7-#8 Spots

[One_and_Done]

I don’t even know what to say when Kobe’s 2006 playoffs is invoked as something positive in a comparison with the other incredible candidates on the board. Kobe’s playoff scoring per 100 dropped from 46 all the way down to 32. More importantly, 06 is the playoffs where in game 7, after being criticised for not passing the ball enough, Kobe tried to “make a point” to his critics by refusing to shoot the ball in the 2nd half. This was much commented on at the time. Kobe shot 13 times in the 1st half, and only 3 times in the 2nd. Instead he made exaggerated efforts to pass early and often to his team mates, which effectively destroyed their offense. Kobe’s petulant actions helped his team lose the game. I can’t imagine how this kind of behavior, in a game 7, could be viewed as a positive.

Butler in 2023 took a team of Bam and 3 nothing starters to the NBA finals, in a much stronger NBA, and we have to hear about how Kobe supposedly showed more impact by taking a team with Lamar Odom to 45 wins and a 1st round exit. That is not even in the top 20 of carry jobs in a single season by a player. Butler alone has 3 more impressive efforts in 20, 22, and 23.

[Top10alltime]

Why is Nash and CP3 being put above guys like Kobe and Shai? WHy is Wade and Dirk as well?

I would ask about Giannis, but y'all hate me for going against your fanboyism and having a different take, even though we see others do this as well (not naming names). Sorry if this is hurtful, just saying the truth.

Because they were more impactful than him.

I'll let penbeast say this for me

Once again, crudely dismissive, no analysis

And a passionate hate for Kobe with all this

Why is Nash and CP3 above Kobe, and how were they more impactful?

[70sFan]

I don’t even know what to say when Kobe’s 2006 playoffs is invoked as something positive in a comparison with the other incredible candidates on the board. Kobe’s playoff scoring per 100 dropped from 46 all the way down to 32. More importantly, 06 is the playoffs where in game 7, after being criticised for not passing the ball enough, Kobe tried to “make a point” to his critics by refusing to shoot the ball in the 2nd half. This was much commented on at the time. Kobe shot 13 times in the 1st half, and only 3 times in the 2nd. Instead he made exaggerated efforts to pass early and often to his team mates, which effectively destroyed their offense. Kobe’s petulant actions helped his team lose the game. I can’t imagine how this kind of behavior, in a game 7, could be viewed as a positive.

Was it not relatively impressive that the series even went to 7 games? I don't support 2006 here and I probably won't have Kobe in my ballot, but the Sun's were significantly better and nobody expected the series to be this close.

Butler in 2023 took a team of Bam and 3 nothing starters to the NBA finals, in a much stronger NBA, and we have to hear about how Kobe supposedly showed more impact by taking a team with Lamar Odom to 45 wins and a 1st round exit. That is not even in the top 20 of carry jobs in a single season by a player. Butler alone has 3 more impressive efforts in 20, 22, and 23.

Butler teams were significantly more talented than 2006 Lakers and if you try to deny that then you're just showing why nobody takes your Kobe opinions seriously.

[Top10alltime]

In case anyone missed their recent thread that got locked in 9 minutes,

Giannis is bad at basketball. Before we start putting him in these sorts of conversations let's get him out of Manute Bol tier first.

Don't feed the troll.

Only butthurt Giannis fans (which is everyone atp), will persecute me and will dismiss my takes without backing it up. There is no evidence for Giannis being in the top 15 peaks of 2000s, and people are just going to call me a troll, despite no evidence otherwise. That says a lot about how overrated Giannis is, doesn't it .

Also, don't look at things like that. The Manute Bol tier is over exaggeration from my part, and he is bad at basketball.

He's the GOAT role player though

[Djoker]

7. 2008 Kobe Bryant
8. 2021 Giannis Antetokounmpo
9. 2006 Dwyane Wade
10. 2014 Kevin Durant

The lower we get on this list, the tougher it is as more names come into consideration and we start getting a situation where a ton of guys are on the same tier. I feel pretty good about Kobe and Giannis leading the pack but then it wasn't easy. I strongly considered Kawhi but he just missed out on being a ticking time bomb healthy wise. Basically both Wade and KD have a much better chance of finishing out a postseason than Kawhi does and that swung it for me. SGA's postseason was a bit meh for me as I explained in past threads. He was the weakest playoff performer and that doesn't sit well with me. And Dirk is just a lightly lesser version of KD in my eyes as I've explained in many other threads.

With Kobe it basically comes down to box score dominance and maybe even more importantly empirical data regarding team success. Even though impact metrics don't love him, teams with him on the floor consistently had very good offenses, including post-Shaq, with pretty standard level offensive support. I believe the diversity of his skillset along with excellent playoff resilience makes him better in high leverage situations compared to multiyear RS impact metric show. He has four finals runs (three titles) with individual stats that can rival anyone in this era except Lebron and Jokic.

2001 PS:

29.4 IA Pts/75
+5.8 rTS
8.2 Box OC
8.1 cTOV%
47.1 Load

+13.4 rORtg ON Court

2008 PS:

30.4 IA Pts/75
+4.9 rTS
9.6 Box OC
8.5 cTOV%
49.2 Load

+7.9 rORtg ON Court

2009 PS:

30.6 IA Pts/75
+3.6 rTS
10.3 Box OC
6.5 cTOV%
50.5 Load

+8.4 rORtg ON Court

2010 PS:

30.3 IA Pts/75
+3.3 rTS
10.2 Box OC
8.9 cTOV%
51.8 Load

+8.4 rORtg ON Court

He has a pretty elite profile. High volume, moderately good efficiency, strong creation, low turnovers... Kobe is the best offensive player left in the project. On defense, I'm satisfied with calling him a slight positive.

Giannis for reasons I discussed in previous posts has a super high ceiling. He's more of a go-to offensive guy than KG although his playoff offenses have also been pedestrian. Unlike KG, however, he has major durability issues and he's not as consistent on defense. 2021 must be Giannis' peak to me given the excellent playoff run. In 2019 and 2020 which were his best RS, he had poor and injury-laden postseasons, respectively. However, even in 2021, he missed two games in the ECF. As lessthanjake said, he's extremely fortunate that the Hawks team was so weak (and also playing without Trae Young) that the Bucks were able to squeak by. Usually that late in the playoffs, your best player missing games means good night. His Finals was all time great but between durability issues and questions marks about team playoff performance, he lands just below KG. I've flip-flopped a bunch on those two but I think push comes to shove, Garnett is going to be on the court and that matters. But Garnett isn't here now so Giannis takes the top spot after Kobe.

Wade simply had one of the best carryjobs in history. Shaq was very inconsistent in that postseason and #3-8 on that Heat roster was one of the weakest ones for champions in the 21st century. There is an easy argument that 2009 Wade was his peak but I can't overlook the postseason that 2006 Wade had. He may not have been as polished but he was just a bull attacking the rim. Completely and utterly unstoppable.

Durant as I eluded to in the opening paragraph just gives me more confidence than any of the HM's. He's healthier than Kawhi, he's a bit better than Dirk and he's a superior playoff performer to SGA. Wade takes the cake over KD for being a superior playmaker.

[70sFan]

Durant as I eluded to in the opening paragraph just gives me more confidence than any of the HM's. He's healthier than Kawhi, he's a bit better than Dirk and he's a superior playoff performer to SGA. Wade takes the cake over KD for being a superior playmaker.

Is that the case? I don't think it's true especially if you focus on 2014 vs 2025. Shai was also quite good in 2024 playoffs. I don't think it's that clear, although it can be defended. Would you like to elaborate that point?

[Djoker]

Durant as I eluded to in the opening paragraph just gives me more confidence than any of the HM's. He's healthier than Kawhi, he's a bit better than Dirk and he's a superior playoff performer to SGA. Wade takes the cake over KD for being a superior playmaker.

Is that the case? I don't think it's true especially if you focus on 2014 vs 2025. Shai was also quite good in 2024 playoffs. I don't think it's that clear, although it can be defended. Would you like to elaborate that point?

KD is a considerably better PS scorer.

2014 KD: 29.7 IA Pts/75 +4.5 rTS
2025 SGA: 29.7 IA Pts/75 +0.5 rTS

Honestly SGA still doesn't have a very large PS sample. It's possible that he will have some better shooting PS at some point but when a guy has one long playoff run in his prime, those numbers will take precedence because there's just nothing else to go off of. KD had some monster scoring runs in 2012, 2017 and 2019 before he got hurt.

[70sFan]

Durant as I eluded to in the opening paragraph just gives me more confidence than any of the HM's. He's healthier than Kawhi, he's a bit better than Dirk and he's a superior playoff performer to SGA. Wade takes the cake over KD for being a superior playmaker.

Is that the case? I don't think it's true especially if you focus on 2014 vs 2025. Shai was also quite good in 2024 playoffs. I don't think it's that clear, although it can be defended. Would you like to elaborate that point?

KD is a considerably better PS scorer.

2014 KD: 28.5 IA Pts/75 +4.3 rTS
2025 SGA: 29.7 IA Pts/75 +0.5 rTS

Honestly SGA still doesn't have a very large PS sample. It's possible that he will have some better shooting PS at some point but when a guy has one long playoff run in his prime, those numbers will take precedence because there's just nothing else to go off of. KD had some monster scoring runs in 2012, 2017 and 2019 before he got hurt.

More efficient scorer, but more efficient offensive player is questionable. Shai struggled with making shots, but he handled the playmaking and decision making duties reasonably well. I'd say in fact it is quite significant difference between Shai (solid playmaker and excellent turnover economy) and Durant in that regard. KD always struggled with making plays against aggressive defenses and he didn't have a good AST/TOV ratio in basically any non-GSW run.

I think the case for Durant is his ability to fit next to other offensive stars and his shooting ability, but I wouldn't call him a better offensive engine than Shai.

[Djoker]

Is that the case? I don't think it's true especially if you focus on 2014 vs 2025. Shai was also quite good in 2024 playoffs. I don't think it's that clear, although it can be defended. Would you like to elaborate that point?

KD is a considerably better PS scorer.

2014 KD: 28.5 IA Pts/75 +4.3 rTS
2025 SGA: 29.7 IA Pts/75 +0.5 rTS

Honestly SGA still doesn't have a very large PS sample. It's possible that he will have some better shooting PS at some point but when a guy has one long playoff run in his prime, those numbers will take precedence because there's just nothing else to go off of. KD had some monster scoring runs in 2012, 2017 and 2019 before he got hurt.

More efficient scorer, but more efficient offensive player is questionable. Shai struggled with making shots, but he handled the playmaking and decision making duties reasonably well. I'd say in fact it is quite significant difference between Shai (solid playmaker and excellent turnover economy) and Durant in that regard. KD always struggled with making plays against aggressive defenses and he didn't have a good AST/TOV ratio in basically any non-GSW run.

I think the case for Durant is his ability to fit next to other offensive stars and his shooting ability, but I wouldn't call him a better offensive engine than Shai.

KD is not a high turnover player. They are pretty similar in that regard. SGA is the better playmaker but I'd say KD is definitely the better offensive engine in the PS. Forget Golden State. OKC from 2012-2016 had a +6.4 rORtg in the playoffs. OKC in 2024 and 2025 had a +0.5 rORtg in the playoffs. Their RS rORtg were similar for what it's worth.

[ReggiesKnicks]

I thought the Thinking Basketball Podcast highlighted exactly why 2017 Kawhi was better than his later versions--Defensive ability and offensive consistency. He lost his spry and youthfulness after his 2017 Ankle injury. He struggled with nagging injuries in 2019 to the point where he played just 60 regular season games and something the podcast didn't touch on was Kawhi's off-ball movement and cutting taking a step back. It's impossible for me to justify voting for 2019 over 2017 Kawhi given what I perceive a clear gap in ability and impact.

Everyone is beating the dead horse about how big of a crap shoot the next ~10 players are, and I wholeheartedly agree. Is it one of the offensive maestros like CP3, Nash, Dirk or Kobe? Or should the two-way bigs like Giannis or AD get in who have obvious offensive limitations? Split the middle with the wings in Kawhi and Wade?

Difficult to say.

Here are a few of the players I am leaning towards.

2011 Dirk
Dirk+Chandler RS: +11.3, 1400 Minutes
Dirk+Chandler PS: +12.3, 560 Minutes

2017 Kawhi
Kawhi+LMA RS: +6.7, 1900 Minutes
Kawhi+LMA PS: +6.8, 330 Minutes

2005-2007 Nash
Nash+Marion RS: +11.8, 7150 Minutes
Nash+Marion PS: +6.4, 1630 Minutes

Nash+Amare RS: +12.2, 4260 Minutes
Nash+Amare PS: +6.5, 1000 Minutes

2014-2017 CP3
CP3+Blake RS: +12.9, 6500 Minutes
CP3+Blake PS: +6.7, 1000 Minutes

2008-2010 Kobe
Kobe+Gasol RS: +10.8, 5220 Minutes
Kobe+Gasol PS: +6.6, 2420 Minutes

2019-2022 Giannis
Giannis+Middleton RS: +10.2, 5340 Minutes
Giannis+Middleton PS: +9.2, 1330 Minutes

Giannis+Jrue RS: +11.1, 2470 Minutes
Giannis+Jrue PS: +9.6, 1030 Minutes

2006 Wade
Wade+Shaq RS: +10.3, 1430 Minutes
Wade+Shaq PS: +6.0, 670 Minutes

Without doing a deep-dive analysis, there does appear to be a consistent theme here. All of CP3, Nash, Wade and Kobe have similar +/- splits with their 2nd best player in the Regular Season to Post-Season, which sees a dip or drop-off from around +10 to +12 in the Regular Season down to +6 to +7 in the post-season. This drop-off isn't bad, per se, since a +6 to +7 +/- in the post-season, especially for multi-year runs like Nash, CP3 and Kobe had been incredibly impressive and leads to strong championship equity. Ironically, Nash and CP3 were never able to get over the hump for various reasons.

Giannis and Dirk come away looking like the best in this particular scope, which is a signal regarding size trumping all in the NBA.

How did Dirk win affect games?

Dirk's offensive skill set is truly a unicorn. Most modern big men who are All-Time Great offensive forces are either putting immense pressure on the rim or are incredible passers. Dirk can pressure the rim, though in 2011 this wasn't to the same level as it was in the mid-2000's. Dirk can make the right pass, but isn't a passing savant like Jokic or anything close to it.

Instead, Dirk utilized his innate ability to score at will, contested, from the mid-range, to open up the court. Typically putting immense pressure on the rim leads to opening up the court for your teammates, creating gravity at or near the rim and thus warping the defense around the rim to generate open looks elsewhere. Shaq was the poster child for this while Giannis is the Temu version. What Dirk did was have a similar warping affect as Shaq, except from the mid-range area. This led to something different and unique, gravity pulling away from both the perimeter and at the rim, the two best shots in the NBA. Having gravity releasing the pressures from both the rim and perimeter allowed for Dirk and the Mavericks to take advantage of two areas on the court where the Mavericks would have a clear advantage. Of course, Dirk was so good in the mid-range he also had an advantage there as well.

Dirk's 2011 shot-profile
At Rim + In-Paint: 25.8%
Mid-Range: 60.0%
3P: 14.2%

Dirk didn't just dominate in the mid-range, he specifically dominated on the blocks, notable the right block, which he favoured to the left block. This led to easy Chandler finishes if help came from the baseline, or easy 3P shots often from Kidd or with Kidd starting to swing the ball to the opposite corner/wing from the gravity created by Dirk.

I'm fascinated by Dirk in-part because when he is on the court compared to not, there is only one indicator which sees a gigantic shift. Often times, we see Assist% or TOV% or OREB% have drastic differences with offensive anchors. With Dirk, we simply see massive shifts in eFG% throughout the entirety of his prime, often times with the 3 indicators I mentioned prior as seeing no change with our without Dirk.

Dirk's skill-set will always be incredibly valuable, but let's first just look at 2011 and contextualize Dirk. He didn't affect the team's offense in many indicators except for the most important, so why is that?

It is simple. Half-Court offensive rating in 2011 was about 88.6 Offensive Rating. Dirk's mid-range generated 101.3 Offensive Rating alone. That's a +12.7 lift in Offensive Rating. This is why the mid-range shot holds incredible value when shot at a near 50% rate. Half-court offenses are still <50% Offensive Rating (Approaching 100 Offensive Rating but still below).

I don't have time right now to dive into the rest, but I am going to go with Giannis, CP3 and Nash to round out my Ballot for this round.

1. Dirk Nowitzki 2011
2. Giannis Antetokounmpo 2021 (2019, 2020, 2022)
3. Chris Paul 2015 (2014)
4. Steve Nash 2007 (2005, 2006)

Your post makes an excellent case for Dirk. I wonder how you view Dirk vs Durant and why you decided to go with Dirk quite clearly.

Sure, here is his snap shot at a similar comparison.

2013-2016 Durant
Durant+Westbrook RS: +10.8, 6790 Minutes
Durant+Westbrook PS: +6.0, 1350 Minutes

He (Durant) deserves to be in this conversation, undoubtedly. His scoring volume in 2013 and 2014 are incredibly unique at face-value.

Durant ('13): 37.6 Points/100 on 394.9 TS+
Durant ('14): 41.8 Points/100 on 383.9 TS+

Dirk ('11): 35.3 Points/100 on 193.3 TS+

Giannis ('19): 39.3 Points/100 on 260.5 TS+
Giannis ('20): 44.2 Points/100 on 146.2 TS+
Giannis ('21): 40.1 Points/100 on 166.7 TS+
Giannis ('22): 43.6 Points/100 on 211.1+

Kobe ('08): 36.5 Points/100 on 144.2 TS+
Kobe ('09): 37.8 Points/100 on 66.8 TS+
Kobe ('10): 35.9 Points/100 on 7.7 TS+

Wade ('06): 37.0 Points/100 on 148.0 TS+
Wade ('09): 41.8 Points/100 on 123.3 TS+
Wade ('10): 39.2 Points/100 on 68.8 TS+

Let's get something out of the way here. Scoring Volume and Efficiency does not equate the better offensive player. What I mean by this is context is incredibly important. Put yourself in a thought-exercise: Where is the most important part of where offensive gravity should be if the gravity is of equal pull. For example, do you want the black-hole, the basis of the gravity and motion of the offense, to be which of the following 4 categories:

A) Playmaking Point-Guard
B) At rim
C) In mid-range
D) Behind 3P line

These are 3 simple zones and then categorizing players like CP3/Nash into a unique bucket given their ball-handling ability to truly traverse wherever they wish on the court and put pressure on the defense with their passing matching their scoring (for the most part, some CP3 seasons are incredibly efficient with good volume).

As I referenced with my original Dirk Nowitzki-voting post, Dirk operating in the mid-range allowed for both the Rim and 3P line to be free. This is a similar scenario with Kobe Bryant, whose efficiency lags behind the rest of the field in this comparison but see's large gaps in offensive efficiency as he is on the court. Unsurprising to some, here is how he and others compare to Dirk when on and off the court, and this helps paints a picture of what these players are doing in terms of impacting their offense.

The % Change of On/Off team stats for player

Dirk eFG%: +4.6%
Dirk Oreb%: +0.5%
Dirk AST%: +0.1%
Dirk TOV%: -0.7%
Dirk FTA/100: +5.0

Kobe eFG%: +3.4%
Kobe Oreb%: +2.1%
Kobe AST%: -10.1%
Kobe TOV%: -3.5%
Kobe FTA/100: +7.3

Giannis eFG%: +2.6%
Giannis Oreb%: -2.9%
Giannis AST%: +1.9%
Giannis TOV%: -0.1%
Giannis FTA/100: +5.7

Durant eFG%: +3.5%
Durant Oreb%: -1.5%
Durant AST%: -1.2%
Durant TOV%: +0.1%
Durant FTA/100: +7.3

Nash eFG%: +7.6%
Nash Oreb%: +0.7%
Nash AST%: +6.4%
Nash TOV%: -0.2%
Nash FTA/100: +0.6

CP3 eFG%: +7.9%
CP3 Oreb%: +7.8%
CP3 AST%: +3.6%
CP3 TOV%: -2.2%
CP3 FTA/100: +7.8

There are a lot of other variables at play here, but I think these numbers paint and support a lot of what most people believe regarding these players.

-CP3 and Nash were kings in generating efficient shots and this coincided with higher AST% and eFG%
-Kobe was incredible in affecting a teams turnover economy, which boost offensive efficiency but also ties back to defensive efficiency in smaller ripples of impact, as was CP3
-Durant buoyed offensive efficiency by taking on this lions share of shots but had little impact elsewhere, but as noted above, his scoring volume+efficiency is one of one on this list
-Giannis didn't have massive offensive shifts in one way or another, but his scoring volume + efficiency (Still well above league average) led good offenses but his impact still lies heavily on the defensive end

Circling this back to my vote and trying to tie everything together, Nash and CP3 coming away looking like, to me, the best offensive players next to Dirk, and where Dirk gets the nod for me is where he is operating in the court is unique and maximized compared to his counterparts.

Key Point: The Regular Season sets the scale and the post-season allows us to tune the dial in terms of player assessment. Does a player have a skill or skill-set which typically scales up or is immune to defensive pressure or are they an elite defensive piece which can't be schemed against? That's a boon, but it is a boon which enhances what we have seen from the regular season, the large sample. The same is true inversely when a player routinely struggles in the post-season, maybe we need to roll-back or turn the dial down a half-notch compared to their regular season sample, but it doesn't completely change how I view a player.

I know some people love those 15-20 game post-season samples or even series samples, and while I will mention a couple below, it is in support of the bigger picture, the regular season sample size, and meant to highlight areas not be the catalyst or opening argument for why Dirk is ahead of Kobe.

For example: What if a player would crush 29 teams but goes up against the 1 team suited to slow him down. This happened in 2024 to Nikola Jokic and the Minnesota Timberwolves. No other team had the personnel, combined with a chip (Minnesota had a chip from 2023 and losing to them where they felt were the best team to matchup with Denver) on their shoulders to best Denver. Another team could have beat Denver, but no team was equipped to curtail Jokic's strengths as well as Minnesota.

Another interesting one is the 1995 WCSF with Phoenix/Houston. No team was as equipped to handle Hakeem than Phoenix, similar to the 2024 example above. Hakeem smoked Robinson in the WCF, yet Phoenix had nobody as good as Robinson but had a scheme in place to mitigate much of what Houston wanted to do and they could attack Houston defensively in a way no other team truly could in 1995. Houston won game 7 but Kevin Johnson was the best player in Game 7 in a 1-point loss. How much changes in the tune of how we view and talk about Hakeem and the NBA as a whole if Phoenix pulls off the victory?

Dirk vs Kobe

This is an incredibly challenging comparison as both operate in similar ways, both are incredibly difficult shot makers and primary offensive impact comes from anchoring half-court offenses and difficult shot-making away from the rim and within the 3P arc. Dirk comes out ahead in efficiency, even more-so in the post-season where he had spurts of truly being unstoppable as a scorer. For reference, here are examples of just how unstoppable Dirk was.

Dirk vs Lakers (4 games): 35.3 Points/100 on 67.3 TS% (+23.4)
Dirk vs OKC (5 games): 40.8 Points/100 on 70.1 TS% (+5.6)

But then we see this drop-off in the NBA Finals and people in this thread are referencing it as a negative. Does it negate what Dirk did earlier? Isn't Miami an ATG defensive team?

Dirk vs Miami (6 games): 35.4 Points/100 on 53.7 TS% (+9.1)

Here is what these players did vs Miami in 2011.

Rose vs Miami (6 games): 30.8 Points/100 on 43.6 TS% (-5.3)
Pierce vs Miami (5 games): 28.1 Points/100 on 57.1 TS% (-8.9)

Notably here was Rose in the first two rounds of the post-season

Rose vs Atlanta (6 games): 40.5 Points/100 on 52.8 TS% (+12.9)
Rose vs Indiana (5 games): 36.9 Points/100 on 52.5 TS% (+11.8)
Rose vs Miami (6 games): 30.8 Points/100 on 43.6 TS% (-5.3)

Circling back to what made Miami great? POA defense and quick rotations, that's their strengths. What did Dirk's offensive game do? Slow-down Dallas offensive possessions and he, along with Kidd, dissected their defense to a tune of a 109 Ortg. For reference:

Rose vs Miami Ortg: 95 (380 possessions)
Pierce vs Miami Ortg: 98 (350 possessions)
Dirk vs Miami Ortg: 109 (441 possessions)

All this to say, Dirk not having an uber-elite offensive performance by the numbers doesn't mean he wasn't incredibly effective at dissecting their defense, because he was worlds better than Derrick Rose, the league's MVP, in doing so.

For Kobe, here was his 2009 stretch.

Kobe vs Houston (7 games): 38.4 Points/100 on 53.5 TS% (+11.4)
Kobe vs Denver (6 games): 41.5 Points/100 on 62.7 TS% (+6.1)
Kobe vs Orlando (5 games): 40.2 Points/100 on 52.5 TS% (+12.2)

And, just to throw in something from Dirk, here is his series in 2009 vs the same Denver team.

Dirk vs Denver (5 games): 41.3 Points/100 on 66 TS% (-2.4)

Kobe is incredibly impressive in 2009 and his scoring translated 1:1 to his offensive impact, without a doubt.

[ReggiesKnicks]

Looking back at the 2017 season more closely now, I am kind of surprised by the Spurs/Rockets series. Kawhi missed G5 OT and G6, both of which the Spurs won anyway without him. With a worse supporting cast, that could have been a second round elimination due to his injuries in a similar situation to 15 Paul. And then even when Kawhi did play, is it really crazy to say Harden was better in 4 of the 5 games? Much of Kawhi's reputation seems to be playoffs based but first round 16/17 Grizzlies farming aside, I am not sure the Thunder and Rockets series were that impressive performances. Obviously, Kawhi also had the one half against the Warriors where he looked like a god destroying the GOAT team but it's still only one half of basketball.

Originally had him 4th for this round but will leave the spot open for now while I see what others have to say.

I think Kobe should be over Kawhi and I don't know how particularly close it is.

For Kobe, here was his 2009 stretch (+ number is +/- per 100)

Kobe vs Houston (7 games): 38.4 Points/100 on 53.5 TS% (+11.4)
Kobe vs Denver (6 games): 41.5 Points/100 on 62.7 TS% (+6.1)
Kobe vs Orlando (5 games): 40.2 Points/100 on 52.5 TS% (+12.2)

Kawhi vs Philadelphia (7 games): 43.8 Points/100 on 63.4 TS% (+6.1)
Kawhi vs Milwaukee (6 games): 35.7 Points/100 on 57.4 TS% (+2.6)
Kawhi vs Golden State (6 games): 34.7 Points/100 on 60.6 TS% (+3.7)

[jalengreen]

KD is a considerably better PS scorer.

2014 KD: 28.5 IA Pts/75 +4.3 rTS
2025 SGA: 29.7 IA Pts/75 +0.5 rTS

Honestly SGA still doesn't have a very large PS sample. It's possible that he will have some better shooting PS at some point but when a guy has one long playoff run in his prime, those numbers will take precedence because there's just nothing else to go off of. KD had some monster scoring runs in 2012, 2017 and 2019 before he got hurt.

More efficient scorer, but more efficient offensive player is questionable. Shai struggled with making shots, but he handled the playmaking and decision making duties reasonably well. I'd say in fact it is quite significant difference between Shai (solid playmaker and excellent turnover economy) and Durant in that regard. KD always struggled with making plays against aggressive defenses and he didn't have a good AST/TOV ratio in basically any non-GSW run.

I think the case for Durant is his ability to fit next to other offensive stars and his shooting ability, but I wouldn't call him a better offensive engine than Shai.

KD is not a high turnover player. They are pretty similar in that regard. SGA is the better playmaker but I'd say KD is definitely the better offensive engine in the PS. Forget Golden State. OKC from 2012-2016 had a +6.4 rORtg in the playoffs. OKC in 2024 and 2025 had a +0.5 rORtg in the playoffs. Their RS rORtg were similar for what it's worth.

Pretty similar with regard to turnover economy? What argument is there for that?

[iggymcfrack]

Then two years later he goes to a Raptor team that were perennial playoff underachievers and leads them to a title(as a likely worse version of his 2017 self).

They also added a post-prime but still very good Marc Gasol, and... look at that roster. That's a superb supporting cast that happened to have a top 80? top 100? guy at the helm. Remember, Toronto DeRozan can't pass and doesn't have a midrange, that'll come around 2020.

2017+2018, they are a +7.5 (!!!!) team without DeRozan on the court, RS+playoffs. Playoffs only? Just a +7.4...

In terms of impressive things Kawhi has done, leading the Raptors to a title is quite low on my list. Almost any top 10-15 guy would have a great chance.

This is an utterly absurd thing to say. In the first round, Kawhi faced the best/healthiest version of the Embiid Sixers we’ve seen. Embiid played all 7 games AND they had Jimmy Butler as a go-to guy. The rest of the Raptors scored 67 PPG on .533 TS%. Kawhi scored 35 PPG on .634 TS% while also playing elite defense and hit one of the greatest buzzer beaters of all-time to narrowly win in 7. Even an elite scorer like Kobe would be lucky to win that series 1 time in 10.

Then in Round 2, Giannis was absolutely destroying the Raptors. The Bucks had a 2-0 lead despite Kawhi scoring 31 points each game on 2% better TS% than the team average in Game 1 and 17% better TS% than the team average in Game 2. So Kawhi takes on the 1-on-1 matchup and completely shuts him down. It’s annoying that I don’t have more complete stats, but I know that going into Game 6, Giannis shot 30% from the field when guarded by Kawhi which I have to imagine is worse than he did at any other point in his career. In addition, Kawhi was the leading scorer in 5 of the 6 games. Who else from the top 10-15 would be able to do that? Probably LeBron and KG, but that’s about it. I feel like Kobe wins that series 0 times out of 10.

FWIW, the Raptors were +34 with Kawhi on the floor vs. the Sixers and -28 with him on the bench while he averaged 40 MPG. Against the Bucks, the Raptors were +13 with Kawhi on the floor and -7 with him on the bench averaging 41 MPG.

[Jaivl]

Then two years later he goes to a Raptor team that were perennial playoff underachievers and leads them to a title(as a likely worse version of his 2017 self).

They also added a post-prime but still very good Marc Gasol, and... look at that roster. That's a superb supporting cast that happened to have a top 80? top 100? guy at the helm. Remember, Toronto DeRozan can't pass and doesn't have a midrange, that'll come around 2020.

2017+2018, they are a +7.5 (!!!!) team without DeRozan on the court, RS+playoffs. Playoffs only? Just a +7.4...

In terms of impressive things Kawhi has done, leading the Raptors to a title is quite low on my list. Almost any top 10-15 guy would have a great chance.

This is an utterly absurd thing to say. In the first round, Kawhi faced the best/healthiest version of the Embiid Sixers we’ve seen. Embiid played all 7 games AND they had Jimmy Butler as a go-to guy. The rest of the Raptors scored 67 PPG on .533 TS%. Kawhi scored 35 PPG on .634 TS% while also playing elite defense and hit one of the greatest buzzer beaters of all-time to narrowly win in 7. Even an elite scorer like Kobe would be lucky to win that series 1 time in 10.

Then in Round 2, Giannis was absolutely destroying the Raptors. The Bucks had a 2-0 lead despite Kawhi scoring 31 points each game on 2% better TS% than the team average in Game 1 and 17% better TS% than the team average in Game 2. So Kawhi takes on the 1-on-1 matchup and completely shuts him down. It’s annoying that I don’t have more complete stats, but I know that going into Game 6, Giannis shot 30% from the field when guarded by Kawhi which I have to imagine is worse than he did at any other point in his career. In addition, Kawhi was the leading scorer in 5 of the 6 games. Who else from the top 10-15 would be able to do that? Probably LeBron and KG, but that’s about it. I feel like Kobe wins that series 0 times out of 10.

FWIW, the Raptors were +34 with Kawhi on the floor vs. the Sixers and -28 with him on the bench while he averaged 40 MPG. Against the Bucks, the Raptors were +13 with Kawhi on the floor and -7 with him on the bench averaging 41 MPG.

I don't think a "swap Kawhi for x guy, everybody else has the exact same statline" approach is fair. Randomness aside, part of the point is that I don't think a Raptors cast lead by Nash/Paul/Harden/Kobe/Dirk/etc in place of Kawhi would only score 67 PPG on .533 TS%, for example.

[Cavsfansince84]

At this point I am sticking with 2017 Kawhi and SGA as my top 2 but don't have much of any idea who I'll put in the last two spots. So if I can't figure out I might not vote in this thread. Wade and Giannis I am sort of tempted to vote for just because they had some monster regular seasons and are + to ++ on the defensive end. Kobe I do have question marks about his defense after about 03 or 04 as well as using 09 as his rs. I think Wade's 06 rs is half a tier or more higher than Kobe's 09 season and the playoffs are probably about a wash between them so I am sort of leaning towards Wade and Giannis at 3/4 on my ballot. Dirk is also a possibility though idk about using his 2011 rs.

[ReggiesKnicks]

More efficient scorer, but more efficient offensive player is questionable. Shai struggled with making shots, but he handled the playmaking and decision making duties reasonably well. I'd say in fact it is quite significant difference between Shai (solid playmaker and excellent turnover economy) and Durant in that regard. KD always struggled with making plays against aggressive defenses and he didn't have a good AST/TOV ratio in basically any non-GSW run.

I think the case for Durant is his ability to fit next to other offensive stars and his shooting ability, but I wouldn't call him a better offensive engine than Shai.

KD is not a high turnover player. They are pretty similar in that regard. SGA is the better playmaker but I'd say KD is definitely the better offensive engine in the PS. Forget Golden State. OKC from 2012-2016 had a +6.4 rORtg in the playoffs. OKC in 2024 and 2025 had a +0.5 rORtg in the playoffs. Their RS rORtg were similar for what it's worth.

Pretty similar with regard to turnover economy? What argument is there for that?

There isn't.

2025 SGA RS TOV% Change: -2.5%
2025 SGA PS TOV% Change: -4.6%

2024 SGA RS TOV% Change: -4.4%
2024 SGA PS TOV% Change: -5.9%

These are massive swings, better than even CP3 and Kobe in regard to turnover economy.

2009 Kobe TOV%: -3.5%
2015 CP3 TOV%: -2.2%

With Durant we don't see turnover signals remotely close, nor do we when looking at individual TOV%.

2013-2016 Durant: 39.3 Points/100 with 13.0 TOV%

2024-2025 SGA: 44.2 Points/100 with 8.5 TOV%

[jalengreen]

They also added a post-prime but still very good Marc Gasol, and... look at that roster. That's a superb supporting cast that happened to have a top 80? top 100? guy at the helm. Remember, Toronto DeRozan can't pass and doesn't have a midrange, that'll come around 2020.

2017+2018, they are a +7.5 (!!!!) team without DeRozan on the court, RS+playoffs. Playoffs only? Just a +7.4...

In terms of impressive things Kawhi has done, leading the Raptors to a title is quite low on my list. Almost any top 10-15 guy would have a great chance.

This is an utterly absurd thing to say. In the first round, Kawhi faced the best/healthiest version of the Embiid Sixers we’ve seen. Embiid played all 7 games AND they had Jimmy Butler as a go-to guy. The rest of the Raptors scored 67 PPG on .533 TS%. Kawhi scored 35 PPG on .634 TS% while also playing elite defense and hit one of the greatest buzzer beaters of all-time to narrowly win in 7. Even an elite scorer like Kobe would be lucky to win that series 1 time in 10.

Then in Round 2, Giannis was absolutely destroying the Raptors. The Bucks had a 2-0 lead despite Kawhi scoring 31 points each game on 2% better TS% than the team average in Game 1 and 17% better TS% than the team average in Game 2. So Kawhi takes on the 1-on-1 matchup and completely shuts him down. It’s annoying that I don’t have more complete stats, but I know that going into Game 6, Giannis shot 30% from the field when guarded by Kawhi which I have to imagine is worse than he did at any other point in his career. In addition, Kawhi was the leading scorer in 5 of the 6 games. Who else from the top 10-15 would be able to do that? Probably LeBron and KG, but that’s about it. I feel like Kobe wins that series 0 times out of 10.

FWIW, the Raptors were +34 with Kawhi on the floor vs. the Sixers and -28 with him on the bench while he averaged 40 MPG. Against the Bucks, the Raptors were +13 with Kawhi on the floor and -7 with him on the bench averaging 41 MPG.

I don't think a "swap Kawhi for x guy, everybody else has the exact same statline" approach is fair. Randomness aside, part of the point is that I don't think a Raptors cast lead by Nash/Paul/Harden/Kobe/Dirk/etc in place of Kawhi would only score 67 PPG on .533 TS%, for example.

@iggymcfrack: I think you're miscalculating that 53.3% for the rest of the Raptors. I'm getting 50.1% from pbpstats (exact TS%) and 50.6% from the approximate formula.

Anyway @Jaivl: you also would not have thought that a Raptors cast led by Kawhi would have only scored 67 PPG on poor efficiency as they did.

[One_and_Done]

1. Kawhi (2017)
2. Giannis (2021)
3. KD (2014 I guess?)
4. SGA (2025) Wade (2009)
[if it's possible to have 5 preferences, I would vote SGA then Wade, if not I vote Wade, just because I'm not sure SGA has traction and it seems pointless to throw my vote away]

My vote for Kawhi has been discussed before at length. At his peak he was aptly nicknamed Robo-Jordan, because he was a better version of MJ. His two way impact was insane, and I can’t see any logic to punishing him for a random injury in the WCFs (when we are voting in guys for seasons who didn’t even see them progress that far). No criteria which rewards a guy for playing fewer games makes much sense to me. If he’d missed large chunks of the season maybe, but he played enough.

Kawhi also stands out as a guy who has no real weaknesses. He gives you a better version of Jordan on offense, and a better version of Pippen on defence. That’s an insane combination. I saw someone suggest Kobe has better numbers than Kawhi. No, he doesn’t, nor is it even close. Here’s 17 Kawhi v.s 09 Kobe (who was advanced as the best Kobe year by that person).

Kawhi RS 17: 39/9/5 per 100, on 610 TS%, while playing DPOY level D
Kobe RS 09: 38/7/7 per 100, on 561 TS%, while being an ok defensive player at best

Kawhi PS 17: 40/12/5 per 100, on 672 TS%, while continuing to play at a DPOY level on D
Kobe PS 09: 39/7/7 per 100, on 564 TS%, while being at best solid on D

Kobe has no argument whatever against Kawhi. Kawhi was clearly more impactful on both ends. Then you look at Kobe’s terrible floor raising, often detrimental attributes, and we’re a long way off Kobe getting a look in.

Giannis is an easy 2nd for me. He combines a modern Shaq on offense, with the archetype of the ideal modern defensive 4. He gives you DPOY impact on one end, and is an offensive wrecking ball on the other. Would it be nice if he had a stronger halfcourt game and 3pt shot? Sure, but then we’d be discussing him at #2 instead of #7-8. You can’t call someone limited or stoppable when he carries his team to a title with epic performances the whole way through. Since then the Bucks haven’t even been healthy, and while those years are not relevant to 2021, I think it’s worth remembering for those who are trying to use narrative reasons to dismiss what Giannis did. Compared to Dirk or Kobe, who often had great teams around them and came up short, the failures of the Bucks under Giannis have been eminently explainable. Pretty much every year they lost there were injuries or stronger opponents (or both).

If we’re now going to talk about what skillset is more “reliable”, Giannis wins that handily.

The reality is that Giannis game has translated to the playoffs. Ignoring Giannis recent injuries, etc, his peak numbers from 2020-22 per 100 are 40/18/8, on a TS% of 586. Those are great numbers. They are better than any numbers Kobe has ever produced over a 3 year stretch, or in any stretch really. They’re not as high as Giannis RS numbers of course, which from 20-25 have been 43/17/9 on a 626 TS%, but they’re way out of Kobe’s league.

From 00-10 Kobe’s per 100 RS numbers are 37/8/7 on 558 TS%, and his PS numbers are 35/7/7 on 545 TS%. He’s not in Giannis league offensively, and while Giannis isn’t putting in DPOY effort anymore on a night to night basis, he is still on another planet compared to Kobe.

Peak to peak, I don’t know what year Kobe has that is compared well to peak Giannis. If we take 2021 as Giannis peak, he put up 40-16-8 on 633 TS% in the RS, and 40-17-7 on 60% TS. in the playoffs. Kobe has only one season where he scored 40pp100 or more, and he only had a TS% of 559 that year. Giannis has scored 40-46pp100 each of the last 6 years, and his TS% in those years ranges from 61-65%. Kobe has never had a TS% that high in his entire career. His highest ever was 580, and that is an outlier. Looking at Kobe in 2006, his RS numbers per100 were 46-7-6 on 559 TS%, then in the playoffs the supposedly “less stoppable” Kobe dropped all the way down to 32-7-6 on 587 TS%. In fact, Kobe has a large number of playoff disappointments. It’s something he’s as well known for as his bad attitude with team mates.

In terms of how much peak Giannis is actually floor raising, we can see the evidence for it over a wider sample. The Bucks from 19-24 were 281-118 with him, but only 40-35 without him. That’s the difference between a 57 and 43 win team. Contrast that to Kobe without Shaq from 00-07, with a 135-137 record, and only 11-9 in 2008 in games without Pau or Bynum. With truly great players you can see their impact in the team results. Kobe only succeeded on teams that were already favourites, heck he was probably on 10 title favourite teams during his career.

The next two names are tougher. I considered a number of candidates, particularly KD, Luka, SGA, Harden, Nash, CP3, T-Mac, Wade, Dirk, and J.Butler. I’ve ultimately gone with KD and SGA for now, but may switch depending on how the thread progresses.

We have ample evidence KD gave a huge impact on winning, even for non-stacked teams.

In 2014 for example, the Thunder were 25-11 in the games Westbrook missed, thanks to KD.

His Brooklyn time is a bit of a mess to assess, because of all the stuff that happened involving availability of guys, but we can see in 21 the team was 23-12 with KD, and only 25-24 without him. Similarly, the Nets in 22 were 36-19 with him, and only 8-19 without him. We also saw KD carry the Nets in the 21 playoffs, almost past the Bucks, with Kyrie and Harden both going down with injuries. If KDs toe isn’t on the line, the Nets likely win the championship this year largely on the back of KD.

In KD’s Phoenix tenure, despite being past his prime, the win-loss still holds up well for KD. From 23 to 25 the Suns were 85-60 with him, and 15-30 without him. The contrast was stark.

But hey, some computer formulas that, by their nature, are unreliable at accurately measuring value don’t agree, so I guess forget all that other stuff.

As for SGA last season, he didn’t have the best playoffs, but he also had a historic RS and led a very injured team to 68 wins then a title. I’m satisfied he’s done enough to get the nod, though I might switch to someone else later.

EDIT: I've switched to Wade, just because SGA is getting no traction. Could equally go with Dirk.

[Djoker]

KD is not a high turnover player. They are pretty similar in that regard. SGA is the better playmaker but I'd say KD is definitely the better offensive engine in the PS. Forget Golden State. OKC from 2012-2016 had a +6.4 rORtg in the playoffs. OKC in 2024 and 2025 had a +0.5 rORtg in the playoffs. Their RS rORtg were similar for what it's worth.

Pretty similar with regard to turnover economy? What argument is there for that?

There isn't.

2025 SGA RS TOV% Change: -2.5%
2025 SGA PS TOV% Change: -4.6%

2024 SGA RS TOV% Change: -4.4%
2024 SGA PS TOV% Change: -5.9%

These are massive swings, better than even CP3 and Kobe in regard to turnover economy.

2009 Kobe TOV%: -3.5%
2015 CP3 TOV%: -2.2%

With Durant we don't see turnover signals remotely close, nor do we when looking at individual TOV%.

2013-2016 Durant: 39.3 Points/100 with 13.0 TOV%

2024-2025 SGA: 44.2 Points/100 with 8.5 TOV%

Fair enough.

I actually looked at Thinking Basketball cTOV% metric which is adjusted for Offensive Load. KD is significantly more turnover prone than SGA. And a difference in turnover rate can easily make up for a gap in scoring efficiency.

I'd still take KD > SGA as an offensive anchor but it's definitely close. What I don't like about the 2024 and 2025 Thunder and I said this earlier is that their team rORtg becomes so mediocre in the PS. It makes me less likely to give SGA a pass relative to KD whose Thunder offenses were actually really good in the PS. Heck KD produces really good playoff offenses on three teams.. OKC, GS and BRK.

[eminence]

Thinking I'm looking at Wade/Kobe/Dirk/SGA in some order as my ballot. One sentence takes on the other guys:

Kawhi- proved little in the POs in SA, huge injury/consistency issues after that
Giannis - just didn't have the RS/PO runs line up quite right
CP3 - injury issues, lack of deep runs
Nash - have to think about him some more
KD - ehh, too one dimensional of offensive star for my tastes
Harden/Dray - two guys I haven't seen on ballots yet, but I'll be considering next go around
Embiid - imo the 'best' player remaining when he can play imo, but the injury issues are basically unmatched and cripple his real championship odds