Bulls re-sign Josh Giddey - 4/100- no options, fully guaranteed

[dougthonus]

Its funny but he has essentially become a Patrick Williams type 3 point shooter. For Giddey, its considered a weakness of his game at $25m. For Patrick, its his best attribute at $18m.

It's funny because thinking about Giddey as a shooter made me feel a lot more down about Patrick Williams as a player

[Chi town]

I don't disagree with your assessment. I have to say Ball's shot is unorthodox too, but it works for him (except not last season). On Giddey's shot, there's definitely room for form improvement and shot quickness improvement, but in an ideal Bulls world, where Coby and Matas become our 1st and 2nd scoring options, Giddey likely won't ever have the same type of shot pressure as Curry...especially when his ability to score off the drive is such a weapon.

Exactly. Spot on.

Ideally 3rd 4th option.

[Stratmaster]

I think Giddey can lead a top 10 NBA offense because of his pace and I buy his shooting improvement. Much like Lonzo, you are seeing mechanical changes to his form and confidence that comes from putting in the work.

Here's a video of all Josh Giddey made 3s this season. It's in chronological order:

Watch on YouTube

Here's a video of Lonzo shooting prior to his injuries:

Watch on YouTube

I'm not an expert in shot mechanics, so I don't want to pretend to be one. What I would notice is for a guy who has a bit of a push shot (ball is out in front of him with a low release point), he has a very slow release. Most guys using a push shot have a very fast release to compensate for the release point and lack of height, and use it to disguise what they're doing (like Steph Curry strikes me as such a guy, generally low release point, but lightning fast release).

From a footwork perspective, even when he has time he tends to not square up to the basket, his right foot always leads so his left side is always slightly behind him, and he basically never catches and shooting without adjusting his right foot as part of the shot (usually both feet) which is probably the biggest thing slowing him down.

In terms of hand position, I'm not sure its a big problem if it works for him, but his left plays a big role in pushing the shot. Instead of having the right hand center on the ball, he's kind of shooting a bit with both hands, this gives him poor rotation relative to most NBA shooters. It's hard to tell entirely on the video because the quality isn't high enough.

At any rate, the footwork and hand position don't matter really if he's consistent. The biggest thing he needs to be able to do is get the release speed up so he can get shots off in more situations.

I agree with all of that.

Pausing, while you pick your jaw up off the floor.

One thing that makes me optimistic is at least the squaring up with the basket part is something that I think can easily be improved on. Especially since he is never going to be a Lavine type guy, who makes difficult 3 point shots elevating over a defender in his face while jumping to his right. Can't expect that and don't need that. Just need him to get to where he consistently makes open, but not necessarily wide open, outside shots. Squaring up more consistently would help.

[dougthonus]

I agree with all of that.

Pausing, while you pick your jaw up off the floor.

One thing that makes me optimistic is at least the squaring up with the basket part is something that I think can easily be improved on. Especially since he is never going to be a Lavine type guy, who makes difficult 3 point shots elevating over a defender in his face while jumping to his right. Can't expect that and don't need that. Just need him to get to where he consistently makes open, but not necessarily wide open, outside shots. Squaring up more consistently would help.

I don't know that I really disagree much with anyone on Josh Giddey. I think most of the discussion simply comes down to how much emphasis people put on various points made. Like there are is a lot of argument around the 5% of things people disagree about because there's no reason to talk in depth about the 95% of stuff.

Like I think he's far away as a shooter, but I also don't think it's that important. I described him becoming a legitimate good shooter as "he would be a max player if this happens". He's making 25M, he can be a good contract/player even if it doesn't happen.

[Stratmaster]

I think Giddey can lead a top 10 NBA offense because of his pace and I buy his shooting improvement. Much like Lonzo, you are seeing mechanical changes to his form and confidence that comes from putting in the work.

Here's a video of all Josh Giddey made 3s this season. It's in chronological order:

Watch on YouTube

Here's a video of Lonzo shooting prior to his injuries:

Watch on YouTube

I'm not an expert in shot mechanics, so I don't want to pretend to be one. What I would notice is for a guy who has a bit of a push shot (ball is out in front of him with a low release point), he has a very slow release. Most guys using a push shot have a very fast release to compensate for the release point and lack of height, and use it to disguise what they're doing (like Steph Curry strikes me as such a guy, generally low release point, but lightning fast release).

From a footwork perspective, even when he has time he tends to not square up to the basket, his right foot always leads so his left side is always slightly behind him, and he basically never catches and shooting without adjusting his right foot as part of the shot (usually both feet) which is probably the biggest thing slowing him down.

In terms of hand position, I'm not sure its a big problem if it works for him, but his left plays a big role in pushing the shot. Instead of having the right hand center on the ball, he's kind of shooting a bit with both hands, this gives him poor rotation relative to most NBA shooters. It's hard to tell entirely on the video because the quality isn't high enough.

At any rate, the footwork and hand position don't matter really if he's consistent. The biggest thing he needs to be able to do is get the release speed up so he can get shots off in more situations.

Just got a chance to look at the video in more detail. Still didn't have time to watch the whole thing. I watched the first few minutes. Then I moved forward to the 12 minute mark in the video and watched a few more. I may be manufacturing this, so I would welcome your thoughts.

Early in the video, Giddey's right foot seems to most often be farther forward from his left than most shooters. Later in the video, when he was fairly open, that foot seemed to be just barely in front of the left foot. Basically, more square to the basket. When he had to shoot quickly, he would revert back to that right foot being farther forward. Am I seeing things? If not, is that an example of his form changing?

[dougthonus]

Just got a chance to look at the video in more detail. Still didn't have time to watch the whole thing. I watched the first few minutes. Then I moved forward to the 12 minute mark in the video and watched a few more. I may be manufacturing this, so I would welcome your thoughts.

Early in the video, Giddey's right foot seems to most often be farther forward from his left than most shooters. Later in the video, when he was fairly open, that foot seemed to be just barely in front of the left foot. Basically, more square to the basket. When he had to shoot quickly, he would revert back to that right foot being farther forward. Am I seeing things? If not, is that an example of his form changing?

FWIW, I just watched about 10 from the beginning and 10 from the end. The foot position is obviously not static as it just depends somewhat on the position of the defender, but it generally seemed about the same to me, and it looks to me like his preference is just to have an angled stance.

Again, I'm not sure that really even matters, it might not be what you teach, but the key is whether he can be consistent with it. The biggest thing he could probably do would be to remove the shuffling of his feet in general so that he can improve his release speed and have better hand position for better back spin on the ball, but the question with any change like that is whether the juice is worth the squeeze. If he worsens his shot by trying to adjust the mechanics than that isn't helpful, and of course, that's just the tricky part about this.

I'd guess of those things the footwork piece probably has the most upside if he's able to stop his foot shuffle removing the lower hitch in his shot and speeding up his release considerably.

[League Circles]

I still can't believe anyone ever thought Lonzo Ball was a good shooter

[Indomitable]

I still can't believe anyone ever thought Lonzo Ball was a good shooter

He shoot almost 43 percent from three in his first year here. This with almost on 8 attempts a game.

He also ok played great defense and threw great outlet passes.

He also shot 37.5 on the 2 previous seasons.

[dougthonus]

I still can't believe anyone ever thought Lonzo Ball was a good shooter

I know right, he was a great shooter, not a good shooter.

[sco]

I still can't believe anyone ever thought Lonzo Ball was a good shooter

He shoot almost 43 percent from three in his first year here. This with almost on 8 attempts a game.

He also ok played great defense and threw great outlet passes.

He also shot 37.5 on the 2 previous seasons.

I think he'll regain his form this season (assuming he plays enough games to regain his stroke). That said, Zo was always very limited in terms of his ability to score or playmake inside the arc.

[MrSparkle]

Zo shooting was the one-trick pony 3P chucking, but he had a good clip most his life (37%+ on high-volume). His first 2 seasons as a Laker were life lows. 41% in college. Shot well in HS too (apparently). His FTs improved a lot too, but his FT draw sample size was really low as a rookie.

Truth is he never lacked confidence. His handles and first-step were below-average for NBA standards (for a guard or wing). If he had that, he'd be a superstar. But I appreciate that he knew how to make the best of it, and just chucked 8 open 3PAs a game and made atleast 3 of them. Problem is when these types of limited dribblers try to get cute. Their role really doesn't ask for more; open? Shoot it. Guarded? Pass.

I for the life of me can't understand why Patrick Williams doesn't give that strategy a shot (oh I know - we paid him despite having awful stats). We're past of the point of caring to see him create shots... but STOP SHOOTING 4 OR LESS 3PAs A GAME. Just stand in your un-defended corner and chuck the damn ball! The only way it goes really wrong is if you regularly miss all 8 shots for a long stretch. But it would be astounding to see somebody (with a 40% 3P career average) not get more comfortable shooting high-volume with that much of a green light.

Hopefully Giddey maintains a mind-set of taking and making the open 3. I too am hesitant he keeps it up though. And if he can't punish sagging defenders, his impressive post-ASB run will be a long-gone memory. So it's very important he keeps working on it.

[League Circles]

I still can't believe anyone ever thought Lonzo Ball was a good shooter

I know right, he was a great shooter, not a good shooter.

Are we seriously going to rate this guy based on 35 games of hot 3 point shooting? Or rather the fact that that couple months was the only time in his career that he sniffed league average TS%?

He was pretty good but not great at one specific type of shot for his last two (partial) seasons in NO, but other than that and his two hot months here, he's been trash from 3, and he's always been trash as an overall shooter.

It's OK though, he's been a phenomenal defender, very good passer and very high IQ player.

[League Circles]

I still can't believe anyone ever thought Lonzo Ball was a good shooter

He shoot almost 43 percent from three in his first year here. This with almost on 8 attempts a game.

He also ok played great defense and threw great outlet passes.

He also shot 37.5 on the 2 previous seasons.

Worth noting, people throw around these numbers like they're really good, but they're actually below league average TS% unless you get fouled an abnormal amount on your 3PAs.

[dougthonus]

Worth noting, people throw around these numbers like they're really good, but they're actually below league average TS% unless you get fouled an abnormal amount on your 3PAs.

The numbers are good because of the volume, release speed, and pressure he could create with his shot. Maybe not the first year he did that, but definitely the 2nd year and his partial year with the Bulls.

[League Circles]

Worth noting, people throw around these numbers like they're really good, but they're actually below league average TS% unless you get fouled an abnormal amount on your 3PAs.

The numbers are good because of the volume, release speed, and pressure he could create with his shot. Maybe not the first year he did that, but definitely the 2nd year and his partial year with the Bulls.

Oh I definitely agree he shot well for a short period of time (check his games played) from beyond the arc. I just wouldn't call a guy a "good shooter" based on that small of a sample of one type of shot.

[League Circles]

Worth noting Lonzo Ball is still only 3.5 seasons into his NBA career in terms of games played.

[Indomitable]

I still can't believe anyone ever thought Lonzo Ball was a good shooter

He shoot almost 43 percent from three in his first year here. This with almost on 8 attempts a game.

He also ok played great defense and threw great outlet passes.

He also shot 37.5 on the 2 previous seasons.

Worth noting, people throw around these numbers like they're really good, but they're actually below league average TS% unless you get fouled an abnormal amount on your 3PAs.

You like to move the bar. His shooting which is the percentage was a threat. It required him to be guarded.

[dougthonus]

Oh I definitely agree he shot well for a short period of time (check his games played) from beyond the arc. I just wouldn't call a guy a "good shooter" based on that small of a sample of one type of shot.

1.5 years is not a small sample size, and I'm not sure what you mean by one type of shot, he had really good range, accuracy, super high volume, etc..

[kulaz3000]

Worth noting Lonzo Ball is still only 3.5 seasons into his NBA career in terms of games played.

And a long history of injuries and surgeries that players who have played only 3.5 don't have.

People can bring up how effective he is when he is healthy. The problem is that he is rarely healthy. To think that will suddenly change his ignoring his history.

It's a shame because he is a great talent. But if you can't play, it doesn't count for anything.

[MikeDC]

Worth noting, people throw around these numbers like they're really good, but they're actually below league average TS% unless you get fouled an abnormal amount on your 3PAs.

The numbers are good because of the volume, release speed, and pressure he could create with his shot. Maybe not the first year he did that, but definitely the 2nd year and his partial year with the Bulls.

Oh I definitely agree he shot well for a short period of time (check his games played) from beyond the arc. I just wouldn't call a guy a "good shooter" based on that small of a sample of one type of shot.

When that "one type of shot" is the 3 pointer and the "small sample" is 3 seasons of shooting 38.7% on 7.3 attempts, that's what exactly people mean when they say a good shooter. You know that, you're just shitposting