How are people not putting Jokic in their top 15 yet?

[dhsilv2]

2023-2025 defensive xRAPM (3 seasons):

Jokic: -2.2/-2.5/-2.4
Giannis: -2.2/-1.7/-1.8

Bam: -2.7/-2.4/-1.9
Draymond: -3.5/-4.7/-4.4
Gobert: -3.5/-2.7/-3.5
AD: -3.3/-3.8/-3.5
Wemby (2 seasons): -4.2/-4.8
(Bonus) Caruso: -3.9/-3.2/-5.5

I dont think this is a good way to measure defense.... respectfully. you have to consider versatility and scheme. Im looking at some playoff metrics regarding jokic because i do think there are schemes hes quite good in, but i dont quite understand what im looking at.

https://www.nbarapm.com/player/Nikola_Jokic

I think looking at playoffs is way different because of the level of strategy that goes into it.

Any RAPM metric has it's issues. And I think it's fair to say something like. "Jokic is a very good defender overall with obvious flaws that can be attacked". And from there we can discuss how to value that in the playoffs.

We know flat out he doesn't deter shot attempts against him. Guys generally doesn't shoot much worse against him either. But he also deflects a lot of balls. He makes it hard to get the ball where you want. He rotates extremely well. He's just a big body that makes getting past him hard. While this is both good and bad. He doesn't foul which yes gives up easy points but also prevents easy points. And 100% he's reliant on teammates to do their job as he can't cover up their mistakes in space like better defender can.

As I've generally said. The metrics would argue he's a very good defender. But his weaknesses and limitations likely make him average at best. If you want to argue slight below or above, go for it. Either can be supported.

A bad defender? I don't see the case anymore. A few years ago, maybe.

[Whopper_Sr]

2023-2025 defensive xRAPM (3 seasons):

Jokic: -2.2/-2.5/-2.4
Giannis: -2.2/-1.7/-1.8

Bam: -2.7/-2.4/-1.9
Draymond: -3.5/-4.7/-4.4
Gobert: -3.5/-2.7/-3.5
AD: -3.3/-3.8/-3.5
Wemby (2 seasons): -4.2/-4.8
(Bonus) Caruso: -3.9/-3.2/-5.5

I dont think this is a good way to measure defense.... respectfully. you have to consider versatility and scheme. Im looking at some playoff metrics regarding jokic because i do think there are schemes hes quite good in, but i dont quite understand what im looking at.

https://www.nbarapm.com/player/Nikola_Jokic

I think looking at playoffs is way different because of the level of strategy that goes into it.

He looks pretty good there too. He was certainly weak defensively in 2020 and 2021 but has only improved since. Also, I have Jokic as a clearly better defensive player in the PS than in the RS. Especially in the past 3 seasons.

So why do his metrics look better than expected given his limitations?

[CharityStripe34]

All I can say for guys like Jokic and Giannis is that they're still squarely in their primes and incredible players. The all time stuff can wait.

Sent from my Pixel 8 Pro using RealGM mobile app

[pipfan]

I have both Giannis and Jokic in the top 20 for sure
Tier 1 MJ/LBJ (LBJ's longevity moved KAJ to the next tier)
Tier 2 KAJ/Duncan/Wilt/Russell/Shaq
Tier 3 Magic/Bird/Hakeem/Kobe/Curry (I think Joker is here, or will be in a year or two)
Tier 4 Big O, West, KG, Dr. J, Moses, Giannis, KD (DRob pushing into the top 20), not sure where to put Mikan
Tier 5 Dirk, Barkley, Malone, Wade, CP3, Ewing and many others in this tier

[TheGeneral99]

He's top 20 for me.

1. Jordan
2. Lebron
3. Kareem
4. Russell
5. Magic
6. Wilt
7. Bird
8. Duncan
9. Shaq
10. Curry
11. Hakeem
12. Kobe
13. Durant
14. Oscar
15. Jokic
16. Giannis
17. West
18. Dirk
19. M. Malone
20. Garnett

If Jokic plays at this level for another 4-5 seasons, he should be firmly in the top 10 when it's all said and done.

[bstein14]

I think most lists now have Steph, Olajuwan, KD and Jokic in the 10-15 range.... for me personally that's a little high for KD but that's where I usually see him.

[70sFan]

Because the league history is full of amazing players that had remarkable careers?

[Bad Bart]

Because the league history is full of amazing players that had remarkable careers?

Where would you rank Jokic?

[70sFan]

Because the league history is full of amazing players that had remarkable careers?

Where would you rank Jokic?

Haven't done a closer analysis after last season, but he probably touched top 25. I'd have to take a closer look.

[Top10alltime]

I only respect elite 2-way players, so Jokic will never make it onto my list.
Jokic will never reach Giannis level.
For the last 6 years, Giannis has averaged 29.9 points, 11.9 rebounds, 6.0 assists, .575 field, and been one of the very best defenders in the NBA.

And even while lazing around defensively, Jokic never even scored 30ppg.
GIannis 2024-25 = 30.4 points, 11.9 rebounds, 6.5 assists, .601 fielding
Giannis 2023-24 = 30.4 points, 11.5 rebounds, 6.5 assists, .611 fielding

And Jokic's lack of athleticism is no excuse.
Larry Bird was not athletic, and he was still an elite 2-way player.

You can't be serious... Giannis isn't elite two way player, he isn't elite on either end. Also this thread was not about Giannis, so do not derail the thread...

Giannis was never a top tier ATG defender, in the two traits he can play defensively only, he isn't even elite (rim protection and roaming). Funny.


Jokic gaps Giannis, the amount he does is not even funny. It's been like this since 2021 where Jokic has had an argument for best in the world. Stop glazing Giannis and disrespecting Jokic.

Stop talking basketball mate. Go watch cricket or something else.

Ps. On the thread: Jokic will be top10 when all is said and done. So will Giannis.

Stop glazing Giannis. Ur proving everything I said about Giannis FC, that they resort to insults with no facts, and ignore the millions of failures he had.

Like genuinely if KDs foot was one inch sorter he would have nothing to show for his legacy. He's been a consistent failure throughout his career. Put Devin Booker on that team he wins 3 titles at LEAST.

Also, stop being hostile. I can fight back with this if I want to but just because I have an opinion that has never been debunked and is completely true, doesn't mean you should be a butt hurt Giannis Stan about it.

[Top10alltime]

Because the league history is full of amazing players that had remarkable careers?

Hey 70sfan good to see you in GB!

Also, Jokic is one of the top 15 remarkable players. He is getting grossly underrated. He's done enough and he's in there (honestly someone could move me to put him top 10).

[dhsilv2]

Because the league history is full of amazing players that had remarkable careers?

Hey 70sfan good to see you in GB!

Also, Jokic is one of the top 15 remarkable players. He is getting grossly underrated. He's done enough and he's in there (honestly someone could move me to put him top 10).

Nothing wrong with having someone with 745 regular season games and less than 100 playoff games a bit further down one's list or higher up based on the peaked levels he's played at.

[AleksandarN]

I only respect elite 2-way players, so Jokic will never make it onto my list.
Jokic will never reach Giannis level.
For the last 6 years, Giannis has averaged 29.9 points, 11.9 rebounds, 6.0 assists, .575 field, and been one of the very best defenders in the NBA.

And even while lazing around defensively, Jokic never even scored 30ppg.
GIannis 2024-25 = 30.4 points, 11.9 rebounds, 6.5 assists, .601 fielding
Giannis 2023-24 = 30.4 points, 11.5 rebounds, 6.5 assists, .611 fielding

And Jokic's lack of athleticism is no excuse.
Larry Bird was not athletic, and he was still an elite 2-way player.

I’m curious what is your top 15?

[70sFan]

Because the league history is full of amazing players that had remarkable careers?

Hey 70sfan good to see you in GB!

Also, Jokic is one of the top 15 remarkable players. He is getting grossly underrated. He's done enough and he's in there (honestly someone could move me to put him top 10).

My list is based on the career value and Jokic doesn't have enough longevity to touch top 10 right now. I feel like people underestimate how hard it is to reach top 10 after nearly 80 years of the league existence.

[iggymcfrack]

I only respect elite 2-way players, so Jokic will never make it onto my list.
Jokic will never reach Giannis level.
For the last 6 years, Giannis has averaged 29.9 points, 11.9 rebounds, 6.0 assists, .575 field, and been one of the very best defenders in the NBA.

And even while lazing around defensively, Jokic never even scored 30ppg.
GIannis 2024-25 = 30.4 points, 11.9 rebounds, 6.5 assists, .601 fielding
Giannis 2023-24 = 30.4 points, 11.5 rebounds, 6.5 assists, .611 fielding

And Jokic's lack of athleticism is no excuse.
Larry Bird was not athletic, and he was still an elite 2-way player.

You can't be serious... Giannis isn't elite two way player, he isn't elite on either end. Also this thread was not about Giannis, so do not derail the thread....

Giannis was never a top tier ATG defender, in the two traits he can play defensively only, he isn't even elite (rim protection and roaming). Funny.


Jokic gaps Giannis, the amount he does is not even funny. It's been like this since 2021 where Jokic has had an argument for best in the world. Stop glazing Giannis and disrespecting Jokic.

Jokic doesn't need respect, he's already had enough.
Not everyone has to respect Jokic, and why isn't Jokic scoring 30+ppg?
His teams aren't talented enough for him to rely on his passing to win, so why isn't he scoring more?
All that shooting ability and he's only averaged above 26.4ppg twice, 27.1 in 2021-22 and 29.6 last season.
With all those moves, and without a great supporting cast, he should be leading the league in scoring...
Lazy defender and lazy scorer.

Because he’s such an elite passer, duh. He can score 30 a game when he needs to when people are injured, but he provides more value as the catalyst that gets everyone else going than he does as a pure scorer. It’s like asking why Magic didn’t score 30 a game.

[Mirotic12]

Objective and fair analysis wise, neither Giannis nor Jokic is top 15 all time. And neither one of them has any case or argument for being placed that high.

They both need to do quite a bit more in their careers, before they enter into the top 15 all time discussion.

[Rubios]

Jokic is, and will be, widely considered not only a top 15 but among the top 10 best players to ever do it. Hell, he could even rise to... don't know, he's been the best player of the league for 5 straigth seasons and only gets better every year. Let's wait and see how his parabolic trajectory goes on and when and how it starts to decline.

As for the greatest, he's exactly at #15 IMHO as for now. Top 10 is almost a lock.

[Rubios]

PS Yes, longevity is a huge factor. Well, doing it great for a long time, call it however you want.

But even if Jokic retired last season, how many players have been the best of the league (clearly, IMHO, but let's say "have a case") for 5 years?
And, among them, how many for 5 consecutive years?

[hauntedcomputer]

He needs longevity if you want to put him above Mikan, who accomplished far more in less time.
Was probably the best player in the world for more than five years.

[DimesandKnicks]

2023-2025 defensive xRAPM (3 seasons):

Jokic: -2.2/-2.5/-2.4
Giannis: -2.2/-1.7/-1.8

Bam: -2.7/-2.4/-1.9
Draymond: -3.5/-4.7/-4.4
Gobert: -3.5/-2.7/-3.5
AD: -3.3/-3.8/-3.5
Wemby (2 seasons): -4.2/-4.8
(Bonus) Caruso: -3.9/-3.2/-5.5

I dont think this is a good way to measure defense.... respectfully. you have to consider versatility and scheme. Im looking at some playoff metrics regarding jokic because i do think there are schemes hes quite good in, but i dont quite understand what im looking at.

https://www.nbarapm.com/player/Nikola_Jokic

I think looking at playoffs is way different because of the level of strategy that goes into it.

Any RAPM metric has it's issues. And I think it's fair to say something like. "Jokic is a very good defender overall with obvious flaws that can be attacked". And from there we can discuss how to value that in the playoffs.

We know flat out he doesn't deter shot attempts against him. Guys generally doesn't shoot much worse against him either. But he also deflects a lot of balls. He makes it hard to get the ball where you want. He rotates extremely well. He's just a big body that makes getting past him hard. While this is both good and bad. He doesn't foul which yes gives up easy points but also prevents easy points. And 100% he's reliant on teammates to do their job as he can't cover up their mistakes in space like better defender can.

As I've generally said. The metrics would argue he's a very good defender. But his weaknesses and limitations likely make him average at best. If you want to argue slight below or above, go for it. Either can be supported.

A bad defender? I don't see the case anymore. A few years ago, maybe.

No other NBA center would be considered a very good defender if this was his scouting report