Michael Jordan/Tim Duncan vs. LeBron James/Kevin Garnett

[Ol Roy]

Which duo would you rather build around?

[EmpireFalls]

I feel like it should be MJ/Timmy if you have a great coach (a la Pop/Phil) who can design the right pace style around them, just two elite proven executors who effectively don’t ever make mistakes or have exploitable weaknesses in playoffs.

However, I’d go Bron/KG if we assume average-to-below average coaching/supporting cast, as we saw with their Cleveland/Minnesota years in reality. Supercharged athletes on a string together with real chemistry in terms of their styles too.

[One_and_Done]

The team with Lebron.

[migya]

Both Jordan and Duncan were playoff risers almost all the time. For winning, they're the pick. Also, as they showed, easier to put role players around them and succeed.

[Djoker]

Jordan is better than Lebron and Duncan is better than Garnett. Clearly the first duo for me.

[lessthanjake]

Yeah, since Jordan is better than LeBron and Duncan is better than Garnett, it should be the first duo, unless we think the second duo fits together notably better. And I’m skeptical of that. Jordan never played with someone like Duncan, but a very similar-style player (Kobe) did fit very well with a major post scorer (Shaq). Of course, Shaq and Duncan aren’t incredibly similar, but it does help give me confidence that Jordan could’ve meshed well with a great post player. Meanwhile, I don’t think LeBron and Garnett would be a bad fit. In fact, they’d probably be a good fit overall. But Garnett’s lack of a three-point shot at the PF position is definitely not perfect for LeBron (though such a team could potentially go small with Garnett at the C position). So I don’t think fit is a reason to go for the inferior duo of players.

[homecourtloss]

Yeah, since Lebron is better than Jordan and Duncan and KG are similar. Big Ben + LeBron and Andy V. + LeBron were running +17 -- +19 on court with relative trash around them. LeBron with relative garbage was able to reach on court ratings that peak Jordan in 1991 might have gotten to if we take the optimistic view that the unsampled games he was +25 over that stretch which might have have gotten him to the +15 mark that LeBron got to and this is with two of the top 10--20other most impactful players from Squared's sample of 1985-1996.

LeBron and TT as the only big were running +15. Much older LeBron and AD peaked at +17 together if you take out 25 minutes of garbage time when the Lakers were winning by over 20 or 25 points in the fourth. LeBron + KG would be monstrous.

Jordan never played with a center as good as Duncan so I think that would be a tremendous combination as well. The Jordan did play on good defensive teams.

Either way you can't go wrong, but I don't think they're a better duo than LeBron and KG other than maybe LeBron and curry.

[Jaivl]

Either pair would be the GOAT duo by a huge margin and dominate for 10 years or more, I kinda care more about how compatible they are off the court.

1) Jordan would be so insecure around Duncan, especially when the latter inevitably wins a FMVP. But I don't think it matters much.
2) If they somehow manage to *not* win every title in existence (they are dropped in Sacramento or something?) LeBron would probably passive-agressive KG into barking too much and destroy team chemistry.

Sorry, I'm simply laughing thinking about LBJ + young KG playing on transition (both O and D). I'll take them.

[dygaction]

Either pair would be the GOAT duo by a huge margin and dominate for 10 years or more, I kinda care more about how compatible they are off the court.

1) Jordan would be so insecure around Duncan, especially when the latter inevitably wins a FMVP. But I don't think it matters much.
2) If they somehow manage to *not* win every title in existence (they are dropped in Sacramento or something?) LeBron would probably passive-agressive KG into barking too much and destroy team chemistry.

Sorry, I'm simply laughing thinking about LBJ + young KG playing on transition (both O and D). I'll take them.

There is little chance for Duncan to win a FMVP over Jordan, just like KG has little chance to win a FMVP over LeBron.

[dygaction]

Yeah, since Lebron is better than Jordan and Duncan and KG are similar. Big Ben + LeBron and Andy V. + LeBron were running +17 -- +19 on court with relative trash around them. LeBron with relative garbage was able to reach on court ratings that peak Jordan in 1991 might have gotten to if we take the optimistic view that the unsampled games he was +25 over that stretch which might have have gotten him to the +15 mark that LeBron got to and this is with two of the top 10--20other most impactful players from Squared's sample of 1985-1996.

LeBron and TT as the only big were running +15. Much older LeBron and AD peaked at +17 together if you take out 25 minutes of garbage time when the Lakers were winning by over 20 or 25 points in the fourth. LeBron + KG would be monstrous.

Jordan never played with a center as good as Duncan so I think that would be a tremendous combination as well. The Jordan did play on good defensive teams.

Either way you can't go wrong, but I don't think they're a better duo than LeBron and KG other than maybe LeBron and curry.

Peak LeBron with KG lite - Bosh - plus another Wade barely won two. Kobe with Gasol, bankrupt version of Jordan and Duncan, also won two.

[jalengreen]

Second duo, mainly because I think LEBRON JAMES is better than MICHAEL JORDAN. Did everybody get that?

In all seriousness, when the talent is similar I'll go with the advantage of modernity. One duo has a player who dominated within a post-3PT revolution NBA while the other duo has a player whose peak was far earlier than anybody else's. So if this hypothetical is for the modern era, then I'd pick the duo that has the player who dominated the modern era. If this is a general question for any era, then I'd pick the duo that has the player who has displayed more era translation than any player in league history. In both cases, that duo is the latter.

(But yes either pick is obviously going to translate into a dynasty)

[Top10alltime]

KG and Lebron clearly. Y'all might have both players (Duncan and Jordan ahead), and that's fine, I don't think either are clear of each other. But let's think about their play styles.

1. Lebron is NOT a great shooter and will have to drive to the rim, because that's where his playmaking ability generates from. He is also not an elite off-ball player (unless it's slashing, screening, or play finishing). With KG not being a guy who hangs around the rim/post a lot like Lebron does, that will give Lebron more opportunities to use his rim pressure to maiximise his playmaking ability a lot, and with KG already being a top tier off-ball player, that gives him portability to fit Lebron's playstyle.

2. With this being said. KG is an all-time mid range shooter, so just like Giannis, Lebron can just farm drive & kick (unless they found a way to lock up KG in the mid-range), and with that, we can see both teammates uplifting each other to an extent that Jordan or Duncan wouldn't.

3. The team is clearly better at transition, even though it's not nearly as important as in the HC (probably like 10-20x less important), it is still a part of basketball. And Lebron + KG is already better in the HC, for the reasons I listed above.

4. With all that being said on the offensive side of the court, KG + Lebron is also better at defensive side of the court (they have less spots to be exposed). Duncan is only the GOAT level defender he is, because of GOAT lvl roaming, and rim protection. KG is literally good at everything on the defensive end, he's elite at it all (making him in contention for GOAT defensive player). And for all the talk about Lebron's defense (still better than Jordan at it), he is still a more versatile defender than them. So yeah, less defensive weaknesses.

So with them being better in the HC, transition, and at defense, just because they fit together way more nicely than Duncan + Jordan, we have KG + Bron clearly. It's not as simple as who's better, because the way they fit each other's games matters as well, and that's KG + Bron clearly.

Plus KG might be better than Duncan, and Lebron might be better than Jordan. It can go around either way, really.

[migya]

Jordan was great on and off ball. Duncan was great in the post, really top 5 ever, though likely underrated in that overall perception. That is a great fit. Think it was mentioned that Kobe with Shaq, the great inside player he was, were among the best duos ever, Jordan and Duncan even more effective and better on both ends. Jokic, in this so much spacing and skill era, is great posting up, but probably not as good as Duncan. It generates offense for the others and Jordan with someone else that can draw the defense would be amazing to even imagine. That is among the best duos one can ever put together with any two players ever.

[lessthanjake]

Yeah, since Lebron is better than Jordan and Duncan and KG are similar. Big Ben + LeBron and Andy V. + LeBron were running +17 -- +19 on court with relative trash around them. LeBron with relative garbage was able to reach on court ratings that peak Jordan in 1991 might have gotten to if we take the optimistic view that the unsampled games he was +25 over that stretch which might have have gotten him to the +15 mark that LeBron got to and this is with two of the top 10--20other most impactful players from Squared's sample of 1985-1996.

LeBron and TT as the only big were running +15. Much older LeBron and AD peaked at +17 together if you take out 25 minutes of garbage time when the Lakers were winning by over 20 or 25 points in the fourth. LeBron + KG would be monstrous.

Jordan never played with a center as good as Duncan so I think that would be a tremendous combination as well. The Jordan did play on good defensive teams.

Either way you can't go wrong, but I don't think they're a better duo than LeBron and KG other than maybe LeBron and curry.

Worth noting that the numbers cited here are all cherry-picked numbers of the season or even just single playoffs with the best on-court net ratings with those players, and that in all cases there are larger samples with the same player that do not look nearly as good (though some still are very good numbers in larger samples!). And the MJ data being referred to by comparison is overall on-court data and not parsed out using a particularly charitable split with a teammate (not to mention that it is referring to data from a partial sample in which the Bulls went something like 36-20 in the sampled games, while going 25-1 in the unsampled games—though I guess you implicitly acknowledge that issue).

[lessthanjake]

KG and Lebron clearly. Y'all might have both players (Duncan and Jordan ahead), and that's fine, I don't think either are clear of each other. But let's think about their play styles.

1. Lebron is NOT a great shooter and will have to drive to the rim, because that's where his playmaking ability generates from. He is also not an elite off-ball player (unless it's slashing, screening, or play finishing). With KG not being a guy who hangs around the rim/post a lot like Lebron does, that will give Lebron more opportunities to use his rim pressure to maiximise his playmaking ability a lot, and with KG already being a top tier off-ball player, that gives him portability to fit Lebron's playstyle.

2. With this being said. KG is an all-time mid range shooter, so just like Giannis, Lebron can just farm drive & kick (unless they found a way to lock up KG in the mid-range), and with that, we can see both teammates uplifting each other to an extent that Jordan or Duncan wouldn't.

3. The team is clearly better at transition, even though it's not nearly as important as in the HC (probably like 10-20x less important), it is still a part of basketball. And Lebron + KG is already better in the HC, for the reasons I listed above.

4. With all that being said on the offensive side of the court, KG + Lebron is also better at defensive side of the court (they have less spots to be exposed). Duncan is only the GOAT level defender he is, because of GOAT lvl roaming, and rim protection. KG is literally good at everything on the defensive end, he's elite at it all (making him in contention for GOAT defensive player). And for all the talk about Lebron's defense (still better than Jordan at it), he is still a more versatile defender than them. So yeah, less defensive weaknesses.

So with them being better in the HC, transition, and at defense, just because they fit together way more nicely than Duncan + Jordan, we have KG + Bron clearly. It's not as simple as who's better, because the way they fit each other's games matters as well, and that's KG + Bron clearly.

Plus KG might be better than Duncan, and Lebron might be better than Jordan. It can go around either way, really.

I don’t agree with all of this, but it seems a relatively fair analysis IMO. That said, I will note that I don’t really think farming drive-and-kick mid-range jump shots for Garnett would actually be super efficient offense, unless it were in a real deadball era. It would definitely be good—Garnett’s mid-range shooting percentage is actually very good—but I don’t know that you really want that to be your bread and butter. You’d still probably rather drive and kick for a three from some random role player, no?

[homecourtloss]

Yeah, since Lebron is better than Jordan and Duncan and KG are similar. Big Ben + LeBron and Andy V. + LeBron were running +17 -- +19 on court with relative trash around them. LeBron with relative garbage was able to reach on court ratings that peak Jordan in 1991 might have gotten to if we take the optimistic view that the unsampled games he was +25 over that stretch which might have have gotten him to the +15 mark that LeBron got to and this is with two of the top 10--20other most impactful players from Squared's sample of 1985-1996.

LeBron and TT as the only big were running +15. Much older LeBron and AD peaked at +17 together if you take out 25 minutes of garbage time when the Lakers were winning by over 20 or 25 points in the fourth. LeBron + KG would be monstrous.

Jordan never played with a center as good as Duncan so I think that would be a tremendous combination as well. The Jordan did play on good defensive teams.

Either way you can't go wrong, but I don't think they're a better duo than LeBron and KG other than maybe LeBron and curry.

Worth noting that the numbers cited here are all cherry-picked numbers of the season or even just single playoffs with the best on-court net ratings with those players, and that in all cases there are larger samples with the same player that do not look nearly as good (though some still are very good numbers in larger samples!). And the MJ data being referred to by comparison is overall on-court data and not parsed out using a particularly charitable split with a teammate (not to mention that it is referring to data from a partial sample in which the Bulls went something like 36-20 in the sampled games, while going 25-1 in the unsampled games—though I guess you implicitly acknowledge that issue).

I did--if he hit +25 then his on court would be upper +14 or +15, what Hanes did with Andy V., mo williams, et. al.

[lessthanjake]

Yeah, since Lebron is better than Jordan and Duncan and KG are similar. Big Ben + LeBron and Andy V. + LeBron were running +17 -- +19 on court with relative trash around them. LeBron with relative garbage was able to reach on court ratings that peak Jordan in 1991 might have gotten to if we take the optimistic view that the unsampled games he was +25 over that stretch which might have have gotten him to the +15 mark that LeBron got to and this is with two of the top 10--20other most impactful players from Squared's sample of 1985-1996.

LeBron and TT as the only big were running +15. Much older LeBron and AD peaked at +17 together if you take out 25 minutes of garbage time when the Lakers were winning by over 20 or 25 points in the fourth. LeBron + KG would be monstrous.

Jordan never played with a center as good as Duncan so I think that would be a tremendous combination as well. The Jordan did play on good defensive teams.

Either way you can't go wrong, but I don't think they're a better duo than LeBron and KG other than maybe LeBron and curry.

Worth noting that the numbers cited here are all cherry-picked numbers of the season or even just single playoffs with the best on-court net ratings with those players, and that in all cases there are larger samples with the same player that do not look nearly as good (though some still are very good numbers in larger samples!). And the MJ data being referred to by comparison is overall on-court data and not parsed out using a particularly charitable split with a teammate (not to mention that it is referring to data from a partial sample in which the Bulls went something like 36-20 in the sampled games, while going 25-1 in the unsampled games—though I guess you implicitly acknowledge that issue).

I did--if he hit +25 then his on court would be upper +14 or +15, what Hanes did with Andy V., mo williams, et. al.

A clue that “what [James] did with Andy V., mo Williams, et al.” in a single season in terms of on-court net rating might involve a healthy dose of positive variance is that his on-court net rating that year was significantly higher than any other season of his career—even including seasons where he played with some incredible all-time great players. One might actually think that the on-court net ratings with various all-time greats and all-NBA players might actually be more probative to a question of how things would go with a different all-time great. The implication you’re trying to make is basically “If LeBron had this high an on-court net rating with Anderson Varejao, then just think what he’d do with a much better player.” But he played with a bunch of much better players and didn’t actually put up those kinds of on-court net ratings, so the inference you’re going for here seems pretty clearly flawed (likely in large part because it is leveraging positive noise, but there’s other potential explanations).

[Top10alltime]

KG and Lebron clearly. Y'all might have both players (Duncan and Jordan ahead), and that's fine, I don't think either are clear of each other. But let's think about their play styles.

1. Lebron is NOT a great shooter and will have to drive to the rim, because that's where his playmaking ability generates from. He is also not an elite off-ball player (unless it's slashing, screening, or play finishing). With KG not being a guy who hangs around the rim/post a lot like Lebron does, that will give Lebron more opportunities to use his rim pressure to maiximise his playmaking ability a lot, and with KG already being a top tier off-ball player, that gives him portability to fit Lebron's playstyle.

2. With this being said. KG is an all-time mid range shooter, so just like Giannis, Lebron can just farm drive & kick (unless they found a way to lock up KG in the mid-range), and with that, we can see both teammates uplifting each other to an extent that Jordan or Duncan wouldn't.

3. The team is clearly better at transition, even though it's not nearly as important as in the HC (probably like 10-20x less important), it is still a part of basketball. And Lebron + KG is already better in the HC, for the reasons I listed above.

4. With all that being said on the offensive side of the court, KG + Lebron is also better at defensive side of the court (they have less spots to be exposed). Duncan is only the GOAT level defender he is, because of GOAT lvl roaming, and rim protection. KG is literally good at everything on the defensive end, he's elite at it all (making him in contention for GOAT defensive player). And for all the talk about Lebron's defense (still better than Jordan at it), he is still a more versatile defender than them. So yeah, less defensive weaknesses.

So with them being better in the HC, transition, and at defense, just because they fit together way more nicely than Duncan + Jordan, we have KG + Bron clearly. It's not as simple as who's better, because the way they fit each other's games matters as well, and that's KG + Bron clearly.

Plus KG might be better than Duncan, and Lebron might be better than Jordan. It can go around either way, really.

I don’t agree with all of this, but it seems a relatively fair analysis IMO. That said, I will note that I don’t really think farming drive-and-kick mid-range jump shots for Garnett would actually be super efficient offense, unless it were in a real deadball era. It would definitely be good—Garnett’s mid-range shooting percentage is actually very good—but I don’t know that you really want that to be your bread and butter. You’d still probably rather drive and kick for a three from some random role player, no?

What don't you agree with? And yes, you used the same analysis as who's better is the better team (although that doesn't work like that, if you understand real basketball, not saying you don't!).

Lebron can farm drive & kick because he has top 5 gravity all-time, and top 1 rim pressure ever IMO. Since KG will make up for Lebron's deficiencies as a shooter, off-ball player, and fits in nearly perfectly with Lebron, he will be able to do this. Of course, there's other ways to do this, but I think that form of KG scoring will be the most valuable.

There is another problem, which is how much rim pressure Lebron has, and how much spacing KG has. Where will the defense go? I'd say to go to Lebron, but KG 1-on-1 or wide open is a force of nature, offensively, That's yet another problem the opponents will have to face, and Lebron+KG duo is CLEARLY a better duo than Duncan+Jordan.

Plus all the other points makes it clear, that the choice is Lebron+KG. Anyways, have a blessed day, and may Christ bless you!

[lessthanjake]

KG and Lebron clearly. Y'all might have both players (Duncan and Jordan ahead), and that's fine, I don't think either are clear of each other. But let's think about their play styles.

1. Lebron is NOT a great shooter and will have to drive to the rim, because that's where his playmaking ability generates from. He is also not an elite off-ball player (unless it's slashing, screening, or play finishing). With KG not being a guy who hangs around the rim/post a lot like Lebron does, that will give Lebron more opportunities to use his rim pressure to maiximise his playmaking ability a lot, and with KG already being a top tier off-ball player, that gives him portability to fit Lebron's playstyle.

2. With this being said. KG is an all-time mid range shooter, so just like Giannis, Lebron can just farm drive & kick (unless they found a way to lock up KG in the mid-range), and with that, we can see both teammates uplifting each other to an extent that Jordan or Duncan wouldn't.

3. The team is clearly better at transition, even though it's not nearly as important as in the HC (probably like 10-20x less important), it is still a part of basketball. And Lebron + KG is already better in the HC, for the reasons I listed above.

4. With all that being said on the offensive side of the court, KG + Lebron is also better at defensive side of the court (they have less spots to be exposed). Duncan is only the GOAT level defender he is, because of GOAT lvl roaming, and rim protection. KG is literally good at everything on the defensive end, he's elite at it all (making him in contention for GOAT defensive player). And for all the talk about Lebron's defense (still better than Jordan at it), he is still a more versatile defender than them. So yeah, less defensive weaknesses.

So with them being better in the HC, transition, and at defense, just because they fit together way more nicely than Duncan + Jordan, we have KG + Bron clearly. It's not as simple as who's better, because the way they fit each other's games matters as well, and that's KG + Bron clearly.

Plus KG might be better than Duncan, and Lebron might be better than Jordan. It can go around either way, really.

I don’t agree with all of this, but it seems a relatively fair analysis IMO. That said, I will note that I don’t really think farming drive-and-kick mid-range jump shots for Garnett would actually be super efficient offense, unless it were in a real deadball era. It would definitely be good—Garnett’s mid-range shooting percentage is actually very good—but I don’t know that you really want that to be your bread and butter. You’d still probably rather drive and kick for a three from some random role player, no?

What don't you agree with? And yes, you used the same analysis as who's better is the better team (although that doesn't work like that, if you understand real basketball, not saying you don't!).

Lebron can farm drive & kick because he has top 5 gravity all-time, and top 1 rim pressure ever IMO. Since KG will make up for Lebron's deficiencies as a shooter, off-ball player, and fits in nearly perfectly with Lebron, he will be able to do this. Of course, there's other ways to do this, but I think that form of KG scoring will be the most valuable.

There is another problem, which is how much rim pressure Lebron has, and how much spacing KG has. Where will the defense go? I'd say to go to Lebron, but KG 1-on-1 or wide open is a force of nature, offensively, That's yet another problem the opponents will have to face, and Lebron+KG duo is CLEARLY a better duo than Duncan+Jordan.

Plus all the other points makes it clear, that the choice is Lebron+KG. Anyways, have a blessed day, and may Christ bless you!

I just don’t really subscribe to a take that involves saying KG provides particularly great spacing. He certainly provides some spacing, since he had a very good mid-range shot, but LeBron has usually had at least one big who actually has three-point range (Love, Bosh in the later Miami years, 2020 Davis, role players like Frye and old Rashard Lewis, etc.), so a PF that has sub-three-point range would arguably be *less* spacing than LeBron had for a lot of his career. Of course, Garnett can definitely make up for that in a lot of other ways (being a very good passer, amazing defender, etc.), but on the issue of spacing I just don’t see Garnett as being a particular positive, particularly compared to the spacing LeBron had in reality during significant spans in his career. Garnett’s not a spacing negative (unless we put him in today’s NBA and didn’t assume he improved his three-point shooting—in which case he would be a spacing negative), but I don’t think it’s a particular positive or something that you really want your offense geared around.

[homecourtloss]

Worth noting that the numbers cited here are all cherry-picked numbers of the season or even just single playoffs with the best on-court net ratings with those players, and that in all cases there are larger samples with the same player that do not look nearly as good (though some still are very good numbers in larger samples!). And the MJ data being referred to by comparison is overall on-court data and not parsed out using a particularly charitable split with a teammate (not to mention that it is referring to data from a partial sample in which the Bulls went something like 36-20 in the sampled games, while going 25-1 in the unsampled games—though I guess you implicitly acknowledge that issue).

I did--if he hit +25 then his on court would be upper +14 or +15, what Hanes did with Andy V., mo williams, et. al.

A clue that “what [James] did with Andy V., mo Williams, et al.” in a single season in terms of on-court net rating might involve a healthy dose of positive variance is that his on-court net rating that year was significantly higher than any other season of his career—even including seasons where he played with some incredible all-time great players. One might actually think that the on-court net ratings with various all-time greats and all-NBA players might actually be more probative to a question of how things would go with a different all-time great. The implication you’re trying to make is basically “If LeBron had this high an on-court net rating with Anderson Varejao, then just think what he’d do with a much better player.” But he played with a bunch of much better players and didn’t actually put up those kinds of on-court net ratings, so the inference you’re going for here seems pretty clearly flawed (likely in large part because it is leveraging positive noise, but there’s other potential explanations).

Not understanding/liking what I said doesn't make it flawed.

I just don’t really subscribe to a take that involves saying KG provides particularly great spacing. He certainly provides some spacing, since he had a very good mid-range shot, but LeBron has usually had at least one big who actually has three-point range (Love, Bosh in the later Miami years, 2020 Davis, role players like Frye and old Rashard Lewis, etc.), so a PF that has sub-three-point range would arguably be *less* spacing than LeBron had for a lot of his career. Of course, Garnett can definitely make up for that in a lot of other ways (being a very good passer, amazing defender, etc.), but on the issue of spacing I just don’t see Garnett as being a particular positive. He’s not a negative (unless we put him in today’s NBA and didn’t assume he improved his three-point shooting—in which case he would be a spacing negative), but I don’t think it’s a particular positive or something that you really want your offense geared around.

Again, he was able to create all-time impact with non three point shooters in Andy and Z as well as TT as the sole big, so whether KG doesn't provide ideal spacing wouldn't matter.