Does this Kobe stance have real merit

[migya]

Not a Kobe fan, neutral really, but does the following video about him have merit and the statements and evidence cited also:

Watch on YouTube

[Owly]

...

I haven't watched the video and I suspect many will not wish to give their time, the creator the views nor their algorithm the recommendation to a video splashed with
"They hated him"
and entitled
"The media actively hated Kobe and ..."
You may, therefore wish to offer a summary or script for the video. Up to you of course.


For me the at very first glance the clumping together of the media as one entity is a mild concern to make sweeping statements about but this multiplied by the next thing.
The use of the word "hated" ... throwing that word around about a disparate group ... not that they happen to have underrated a player, nor merely disliked them but held hatred in their hearts for a player seems like it's (a) likely a reach and (b) would require some compelling evidence.

[Doctor MJ]

...

I haven't watched the video and I suspect many will not wish to give their time, the creator the views nor their algorithm the recommendation to a video splashed with
"They hated him"
and entitled
"The media actively hated Kobe and ..."
You may, therefore wish to offer a summary or script for the video. Up to you of course.


For me the at very first glance the clumping together of the media as one entity is a mild concern to make sweeping statements about but this multiplied by the next thing.
The use of the word "hated" ... throwing that word around about a disparate group ... not that they happen to have underrated a player, nor merely disliked them but held hatred in their hearts for a player seems like it's (a) likely a reach and (b) would require some compelling evidence.

Yeah, to me when I see things alleging that a field of professionals whose livelihood isn't based on fandom had a conspiracy based on being haters en masse, it makes me think the author is a child who never grew up.

Serious thinkers don't focus on "haters", homers do.

[Cavsfansince84]

Kobe was very divisive. Even before the Colorado incident. Generally speaking though, I think the media was more friendly than not to him. Which is how he kept getting voted top 3 for mvp most every single year and all def 1st team long past the point he should have been. I think there was backlash for about a year or two after Colorado but by 2008 the media very much wanted to see him win another ring because he and the Lakers were good for business.

[One_and_Done]

It was the opposite

Kobe played in LA and was a flashy player who tried to copy the persona of the most beloved player of all-time. That made him a media darling. If he had played for Charlotte we'd think of him more like Dominique Wilkins is thought of.

[70sFan]

It was the opposite

Kobe played in LA and was a flashy player who tried to copy the persona of the most beloved player of all-time. That made him a media darling. If he had played for Charlotte we'd think of him more like Dominique Wilkins is thought of.

I am pretty confident nobody, except of you of course, would equate Kobe to Nique under any circumstances.

[One_and_Done]

It was the opposite

Kobe played in LA and was a flashy player who tried to copy the persona of the most beloved player of all-time. That made him a media darling. If he had played for Charlotte we'd think of him more like Dominique Wilkins is thought of.

I am pretty confident nobody, except of you of course, would equate Kobe to Nique under any circumstances.

I didn't say they were comparable players, I don't doubt Kobe was better. I said the public would think of them as similar players. I mean in terms of his legacy and impact, and among casual fans there would be many who would say 'nah, Kobe wasn't any better than Nique'. Kobe's image is largely based on rings and bring a glamour player from a big market. In Charlotte he'd have had none of that.

[70sFan]

It was the opposite

Kobe played in LA and was a flashy player who tried to copy the persona of the most beloved player of all-time. That made him a media darling. If he had played for Charlotte we'd think of him more like Dominique Wilkins is thought of.

I am pretty confident nobody, except of you of course, would equate Kobe to Nique under any circumstances.

I didn't say they were comparable players, I don't doubt Kobe was better. I said the public would think of them as similar players. I mean in terms of his legacy and impact, and among casual fans there would be many who would say 'nah, Kobe wasn't any better than Nique'. Kobe's image is largely based on rings and bring a glamour player from a big market. In Charlotte he'd have had none of that.

I mean, you can say that about basically any NBA legend. If poor Wolves franchise could destroy a career of someone as good as Garnett, then it can happen to basically anyone.

What's the point of saying that though?

[One_and_Done]

This is a thread about Kobe's public perception. I'd say it's very relevant.

[70sFan]

This is a thread about Kobe's public perception. I'd say it's very relevant.

Yeah and if LeBron James stayed in Cleveland they keep doing horrible job building around him, he could have ended up with no rings and public perception wouldn't put him in the GOAT debates. So what?

[One_and_Done]

This is a thread about Kobe's public perception. I'd say it's very relevant.

Yeah and if LeBron James stayed in Cleveland they keep doing horrible job building around him, he could have ended up with no rings and public perception wouldn't put him in the GOAT debates. So what?

If that happened then it would indeed have hurt his public image, including with the media. That's what we're discussing here; did Kobe get a fair shake by the media. As I explained, if anything the relevant factors inflated his rep.

[migya]

...

I haven't watched the video and I suspect many will not wish to give their time, the creator the views nor their algorithm the recommendation to a video splashed with
"They hated him"
and entitled
"The media actively hated Kobe and ..."
You may, therefore wish to offer a summary or script for the video. Up to you of course.


For me the at very first glance the clumping together of the media as one entity is a mild concern to make sweeping statements about but this multiplied by the next thing.
The use of the word "hated" ... throwing that word around about a disparate group ... not that they happen to have underrated a player, nor merely disliked them but held hatred in their hearts for a player seems like it's (a) likely a reach and (b) would require some compelling evidence.

Basically the focus is on that Kobe performed among GOAT level for particularly the after Shaq years, citing that the 06 season is the greatest scoring season by any player considering the environment (lower scoring avgs in the nba those years). Also that Kobe is the only player with that many number of top 5 mvp voting finishes and only received one mvp, while some players, like Curry, got few top 5 finishes but got more mvps. I think Shaq can be grouped with Kobe in this regard, himself with only one mvp, though he was likely the best player from 99-02.

There is some merit given the facts. Kobe was fairly ball dominant and wasn't Jordan, though trying to very much be at his level.

[One_and_Done]

...

I haven't watched the video and I suspect many will not wish to give their time, the creator the views nor their algorithm the recommendation to a video splashed with
"They hated him"
and entitled
"The media actively hated Kobe and ..."
You may, therefore wish to offer a summary or script for the video. Up to you of course.


For me the at very first glance the clumping together of the media as one entity is a mild concern to make sweeping statements about but this multiplied by the next thing.
The use of the word "hated" ... throwing that word around about a disparate group ... not that they happen to have underrated a player, nor merely disliked them but held hatred in their hearts for a player seems like it's (a) likely a reach and (b) would require some compelling evidence.

Basically the focus is on that Kobe performed among GOAT level for particularly the after Shaq years, citing that the 06 season is the greatest scoring season by any player considering the environment (lower scoring avgs in the nba those years). Also that Kobe is the only player with that many number of top 5 mvp voting finishes and only received one mvp, while some players, like Curry, got few top 5 finishes but got more mvps. I think Shaq can be grouped with Kobe in this regard, himself with only one mvp, though he was likely the best player from 99-02.

There is some merit given the facts. Kobe was fairly ball dominant and wasn't Jordan, though trying to very much be at his level.

Except that just isn't true at all. Kobe wasn't a top 20 all-time offensive player in 06 for instance, because offensive potency isn't measured by ppg.

[D.Brasco]

I can't think of any other athlete who would have been given the grace he got if they had that Colorado situation occur to them.

[One_and_Done]

I can't think of any other athlete who would have been given the grace he got if they had that Colorado situation occur to them.

Very true. I mean, he released a statement in which he recognised that in hindsight the woman did not consent. That's just an incredible admission. But if this topic is ever brought up, even in a thread that is specifically about such issues, the thread will be locked in short order. I can't imagine what that sort of attitude must feel like to victims.

When Karl Malone comes up, nobody will defend him. When Colorado comes up, people enthusiastically flood the thread to defend Kobe, or to say it's 'disrespectful' to talk about it. That says all you need to know about this extraordinary claim that Kobe got unfavourable coverage. The media doesn't even bring it up for the most part.

[Cavsfansince84]

I can't think of any other athlete who would have been given the grace he got if they had that Colorado situation occur to them.

Very true. I mean, he released a statement in which he recognised that in hindsight the woman did not consent. That's just an incredible admission. But if this topic is ever brought up, even in a thread that is specifically about such issues, the thread will be locked in short order. I can't imagine what that sort of attitude must feel like to victims.

When Karl Malone comes up, nobody will defend him. When Colorado comes up, people enthusiastically flood the thread to defend Kobe, or to say it's 'disrespectful' to talk about it. That says all you need to know about this extraordinary claim that Kobe got unfavourable coverage. The media doesn't even bring it up for the most part.

My view of the way in which the media covered any big star in any sport is that up until about 2010 they didn't really go after them with daggers. They barely covered the Karl Malone thing even after it came out that he basically got away with raping a 12/13 yr old girl and then not even acknowledging the daughter from it. Starting in around 2010 with the rise of the whole SAS/Skip Bayless form of 'journalism' on espn it became hip for these talking heads to say outrageous stuff about stars. That became the schtick. So Kobe sort of got a pass. He lost a lot of endorsement money from it but the media didn't really care. He was still pretty close to being the face of the league along with LeBron up until like 2013. I actually respect the letter Kobe released where he didn't basically call her a liar and admitted it may not have been consensual but.. that might have been because it was part of the deal he reached that he would admit that. Generally speaking, short of murder any star athlete/actor can do one major thing wrong, apologize and then people will move on like it never happened.

[Djoker]

I personally would have given the 2006 MVP to Kobe but it's debatable. Any one of Nash, Dirk, Duncan, Wade and Lebron could have won it that year. Winning just 45 games hurts his chances and it would be the least wins by any modern MVP so it's not like it's blasphemous that he didn't get it. Although Westbrook got it with 47 wins. In other years, Kobe's case wasn't that great because he never had the luck to combine individual dominance with team success. It was always one or the other but not both and the competition was stiff in some years. From 2000-2002, he was overshadowed by Shaq. In 2003, his great season coincided with Duncan's historic season. In 2004, Garnett had his historic season and the Wolves won more games. In 2005, he was injured and the team missed the playoffs. In 2007, great individually but they won just 42 games. In 2009, Kobe had a fantastic MVP caliber season and the Lakers were fantastic but he was overshadowed by a GOAT-level season by Lebron and the Cavs even won 1 game more. In 2010, weaker season and again overshadowed by Lebron. In 2011, you could have given it to him but Rose was at least his equal statistically and the Bulls won more games. And from 2012 onwards, he never really had a case. So 1-2 MVP's is what you could realistically expect from Kobe the way his career shook out.

Kobe gets underrated a lot by some these days but winning just 1 MVP isn't indicative of that.

[therealbig3]

I think there’s a much stronger argument that the media protected Kobe if anything, and overrated him compared to how good he actually was.

[Cavsfansince84]

I personally would have given the 2006 MVP to Kobe but it's debatable. Any one of Nash, Dirk, Duncan, Wade and Lebron could have won it that year. Winning just 45 games hurts his chances and it would be the least wins by any modern MVP so it's not like it's blasphemous that he didn't get it. Although Westbrook got it with 47 wins. In other years, Kobe's case wasn't that great because he never had the luck to combine individual dominance with team success. It was always one or the other but not both and the competition was stiff in some years. From 2000-2002, he was overshadowed by Shaq. In 2003, his great season coincided with Duncan's historic season. In 2004, Garnett had his historic season and the Wolves won more games. In 2005, he was injured and the team missed the playoffs. In 2007, great individually but they won just 42 games. In 2009, Kobe had a fantastic MVP caliber season and the Lakers were fantastic but he was overshadowed by a GOAT-level season by Lebron and the Cavs even won 1 game more. In 2010, weaker season and again overshadowed by Lebron. In 2011, you could have given it to him but Rose was at least his equal statistically and the Bulls won more games. And from 2012 onwards, he never really had a case. So 1-2 MVP's is what you could realistically expect from Kobe the way his career shook out.

Kobe gets underrated a lot by some these days but winning more than 1 MVP isn't indicative of that.

Weird to me that you're even mentioning 2004 here as though Kobe had any case whatsoever for mvp that year. That was maybe the worst year of his entire prime due to injuries and going back and forth to Colorado iirc. Zero case for mvp that year. 05-07 his team was too bad to get serious consideration though, tbh, without the Colorado incident it wouldn't have actually surprised me that much if the media had waged some kind of campaign to get him the mvp in 06. The main thing with Kobe is that the media sort of willed him into the same space as guys we normally think of as top 10 by way of giving him a ton of accolades he didn't really deserve. The endless all nba 1st team/all def selections. All the 1st team selections from 2010-13 to me are kind of a joke. He got it based on his name. For a guy most known for his scoring he was putting up 27/5/5 on barely above league avg efficiency. He probably didn't really deserve any all def selections past 03 or 04 either. Had the media given him the same scrutiny on defense that they gave LeBron he wouldn't have gotten any selections past 04 imo and even then Phil gave Kobe a lot of criticism for his defense when he wrote his book all the way back in 2005.

[migya]

I haven't watched the video and I suspect many will not wish to give their time, the creator the views nor their algorithm the recommendation to a video splashed with
"They hated him"
and entitled
"The media actively hated Kobe and ..."
You may, therefore wish to offer a summary or script for the video. Up to you of course.


For me the at very first glance the clumping together of the media as one entity is a mild concern to make sweeping statements about but this multiplied by the next thing.
The use of the word "hated" ... throwing that word around about a disparate group ... not that they happen to have underrated a player, nor merely disliked them but held hatred in their hearts for a player seems like it's (a) likely a reach and (b) would require some compelling evidence.

Basically the focus is on that Kobe performed among GOAT level for particularly the after Shaq years, citing that the 06 season is the greatest scoring season by any player considering the environment (lower scoring avgs in the nba those years). Also that Kobe is the only player with that many number of top 5 mvp voting finishes and only received one mvp, while some players, like Curry, got few top 5 finishes but got more mvps. I think Shaq can be grouped with Kobe in this regard, himself with only one mvp, though he was likely the best player from 99-02.

There is some merit given the facts. Kobe was fairly ball dominant and wasn't Jordan, though trying to very much be at his level.

Except that just isn't true at all. Kobe wasn't a top 20 all-time offensive player in 06 for instance, because offensive potency isn't measured by ppg.

I think it's the situation of the player in context that gives his value. Kobe was quite the ball hog and didn't get passing as a strong point until Gasol got there. His teams after Shaq and before Gasol were rather awful, among the worst it looks among the greats ever, so that works in his favor of how he managed to score as he did in such a tough era and conference. A top offensive player in his era he was.