How are people not putting Jokic in their top 15 yet?

[dhsilv2]

I dont think this is a good way to measure defense.... respectfully. you have to consider versatility and scheme. Im looking at some playoff metrics regarding jokic because i do think there are schemes hes quite good in, but i dont quite understand what im looking at.

https://www.nbarapm.com/player/Nikola_Jokic

I think looking at playoffs is way different because of the level of strategy that goes into it.

Any RAPM metric has it's issues. And I think it's fair to say something like. "Jokic is a very good defender overall with obvious flaws that can be attacked". And from there we can discuss how to value that in the playoffs.

We know flat out he doesn't deter shot attempts against him. Guys generally doesn't shoot much worse against him either. But he also deflects a lot of balls. He makes it hard to get the ball where you want. He rotates extremely well. He's just a big body that makes getting past him hard. While this is both good and bad. He doesn't foul which yes gives up easy points but also prevents easy points. And 100% he's reliant on teammates to do their job as he can't cover up their mistakes in space like better defender can.

As I've generally said. The metrics would argue he's a very good defender. But his weaknesses and limitations likely make him average at best. If you want to argue slight below or above, go for it. Either can be supported.

A bad defender? I don't see the case anymore. A few years ago, maybe.

No other NBA center would be considered a very good defender if this was his scouting report

When we start with facts, like RAPM over his career is positive. Yes, that's not something you can debate.

[Fantastik_Goat]

I have both Giannis and Jokic in the top 20 for sure
Tier 1 MJ/LBJ (LBJ's longevity moved KAJ to the next tier)
Tier 2 KAJ/Duncan/Wilt/Russell/Shaq
Tier 3 Magic/Bird/Hakeem/Kobe/Curry (I think Joker is here, or will be in a year or two)
Tier 4 Big O, West, KG, Dr. J, Moses, Giannis, KD (DRob pushing into the top 20), not sure where to put Mikan
Tier 5 Dirk, Barkley, Malone, Wade, CP3, Ewing and many others in this tier

LBJ has only played 2 more games then KAJ, and KAJ played 3 years in college.

[SlimShady83]

Because he is still playing and has a lot more to give, much like Giannis, I dont' think either in my top 20 just yet, but we'll see

[Optms]

Easy

Lebron
Jordan
Kareem
Magic
Russell
Curry
Bird
Duncan
Shaq
Hakeem
Kobe
West
Dirk
Wilt
Oscar
Wade
KG

[dballislife]

he will be top one

[iggymcfrack]

Objective and fair analysis wise, neither Giannis nor Jokic is top 15 all time. And neither one of them has any case or argument for being placed that high.

They both need to do quite a bit more in their careers, before they enter into the top 15 all time discussion.

He’s been the best player in the world 3 separate seasons at the most competitive time in the history of the league. Here’s a complete list of players who have 3 seasons as the consensus best player at any point:

Mikan
Russell
Wilt
Kareem
Bird
Jordan
Shaq
Duncan
LeBron
Jokic

Considering that he also has the best box score numbers in history and some of the best impact numbers too, I don’t see how he’s not in the top 15 unless you’re just super hung up on rings culture.

[iggymcfrack]

Easy

Lebron
Jordan
Kareem
Magic
Russell
Curry
Bird
Duncan
Shaq
Hakeem
Kobe
West
Dirk
Wilt
Oscar
Wade
KG

Jokic has more seasons as the best player in the league than Kobe, West, Oscar, and Wade combined and he’s doing it in a tougher era with all-time stats.

[iggymcfrack]

I dont think this is a good way to measure defense.... respectfully. you have to consider versatility and scheme. Im looking at some playoff metrics regarding jokic because i do think there are schemes hes quite good in, but i dont quite understand what im looking at.

https://www.nbarapm.com/player/Nikola_Jokic

I think looking at playoffs is way different because of the level of strategy that goes into it.

Any RAPM metric has it's issues. And I think it's fair to say something like. "Jokic is a very good defender overall with obvious flaws that can be attacked". And from there we can discuss how to value that in the playoffs.

We know flat out he doesn't deter shot attempts against him. Guys generally doesn't shoot much worse against him either. But he also deflects a lot of balls. He makes it hard to get the ball where you want. He rotates extremely well. He's just a big body that makes getting past him hard. While this is both good and bad. He doesn't foul which yes gives up easy points but also prevents easy points. And 100% he's reliant on teammates to do their job as he can't cover up their mistakes in space like better defender can.

As I've generally said. The metrics would argue he's a very good defender. But his weaknesses and limitations likely make him average at best. If you want to argue slight below or above, go for it. Either can be supported.

A bad defender? I don't see the case anymore. A few years ago, maybe.

No other NBA center would be considered a very good defender if this was his scouting report

There’s no one like Jokic defensively. He’s definitely well below average at the thing that’s the main responsibility for most centers, but he’s also the best in the league at several other things. Best hands in the league, consistently gets more steals and deflections than any other center. Coach on the floor who probably does more to position his teammates than any other player. One of the very best defensive rebounders in the league. Excellent at avoiding fouls. And also, his turnover suppression on offense really limits the other team’s transition opportunities.

The net effect is that he’s been a huge boon to the Nuggets’ defense. His defensive on/off has been in the top quartile of the league 8 out of 10 seasons with him ranking in the 92nd percentile or higher in 3 of those seasons. The entire roster has turned over that period. He’s played with vastly different teammates. And yet he consistently makes the defense much better on an incredibly consistent basis. There’s too much signal there for it to just be noise.

[CobraCommander]

Defense and rings -

I think he is better than KD- and I have him in my 15 but I get it -

[CobraCommander]

I have both Giannis and Jokic in the top 20 for sure
Tier 1 MJ/LBJ (LBJ's longevity moved KAJ to the next tier)
Tier 2 KAJ/Duncan/Wilt/Russell/Shaq
Tier 3 Magic/Bird/Hakeem/Kobe/Curry (I think Joker is here, or will be in a year or two)
Tier 4 Big O, West, KG, Dr. J, Moses, Giannis, KD (DRob pushing into the top 20), not sure where to put Mikan
Tier 5 Dirk, Barkley, Malone, Wade, CP3, Ewing and many others in this tier

LBJ has only played 2 more games then KAJ, and KAJ played 3 years in college.

Wow that’s interesting- so LeBron is a better scorer not only in longevity but per game

[Black Jack]

If feel like it a big jumble of guys who are top 20 but not goat level and he's in that mix

I rate MJ, Kareem, LeBron, Russell, Wilt, Magic, Duncan Kobe, Bird, Shaq, Hakeem as goat level players (not all actual GOAT candidates but they played that high level) and then everyone else can slide up and down.

I feel like Jokic has passed guys like Dirk but theres some like Oscar who may still be ranked over him career wise.

His peak is getting into goat territory though. I'd like to see him get one more ring somehow then we can talk. He could unseat a few of my goat level players for sure.

[dk1115]

How are you just assuming people aren't?

[bonita_the_frog]

I only respect elite 2-way players, so Jokic will never make it onto my list.
Jokic will never reach Giannis level.
For the last 6 years, Giannis has averaged 29.9 points, 11.9 rebounds, 6.0 assists, .575 field, and been one of the very best defenders in the NBA.

And even while lazing around defensively, Jokic never even scored 30ppg.
GIannis 2024-25 = 30.4 points, 11.9 rebounds, 6.5 assists, .601 fielding
Giannis 2023-24 = 30.4 points, 11.5 rebounds, 6.5 assists, .611 fielding

And Jokic's lack of athleticism is no excuse.
Larry Bird was not athletic, and he was still an elite 2-way player.

Bird wasn't remotely an elite defender. Solid for sure, but he had huge weaknesses and mchale would almost always have to guard anyone with elite foot speed at the 3 or 4 while they moved bird off those guys. Bird and Jokic actually play defensive very similarly.

But Bird was an elite 2-way player, meaning he was a 2-way player and he was elite (known for winning MVPs).
Whereas Jokic is an elite player, but not an elite 2-way player.

Bird was 3-time All-Defensive, which Jokic has no hope of ever being, even if we list Jokic as a Forward, he'd never make an All-Defensive Team.
And Bird wasn't just a smart defender, he hustled WAY more on Defense than Jokic, and Bird had quick reflexes.

[KyRo23]

Interesting to see some posts here. I feel like during the season, people always have him top 10 all time or right on that cusp. Right now I'm seeing a lot lower. Have the Jokic fans not joined the discussion yet? For me he is right around that 15 mark though

[Fantastik_Goat]

I have both Giannis and Jokic in the top 20 for sure
Tier 1 MJ/LBJ (LBJ's longevity moved KAJ to the next tier)
Tier 2 KAJ/Duncan/Wilt/Russell/Shaq
Tier 3 Magic/Bird/Hakeem/Kobe/Curry (I think Joker is here, or will be in a year or two)
Tier 4 Big O, West, KG, Dr. J, Moses, Giannis, KD (DRob pushing into the top 20), not sure where to put Mikan
Tier 5 Dirk, Barkley, Malone, Wade, CP3, Ewing and many others in this tier

LBJ has only played 2 more games then KAJ, and KAJ played 3 years in college.

Wow that’s interesting- so LeBron is a better scorer not only in longevity but per game

Actually KAJ still has more made buckets.

[Top10alltime]

Because he is still playing and has a lot more to give, much like Giannis, I dont' think either in my top 20 just yet, but we'll see

Stop it. Stop bringing up Giannis, just to bait me. This is a completely unrelated discussion, and I feel like people are directing this at me.

This should be something EVERYONE needs to hear.

[Lalouie]

prolly cuz if his defense or lack thereof...for a center it's a big deal

however his unique passing and team skills is rare,,, like only bill walton rare
and his bbIQ is second to only a few in 70years of nba ball.

i think that puts him in unicorn status, so frankly scarlett i don't give a damn about his D. and he won a ring so it's not like he didn't overcome his "weakness"

[dhsilv2]

I only respect elite 2-way players, so Jokic will never make it onto my list.
Jokic will never reach Giannis level.
For the last 6 years, Giannis has averaged 29.9 points, 11.9 rebounds, 6.0 assists, .575 field, and been one of the very best defenders in the NBA.

And even while lazing around defensively, Jokic never even scored 30ppg.
GIannis 2024-25 = 30.4 points, 11.9 rebounds, 6.5 assists, .601 fielding
Giannis 2023-24 = 30.4 points, 11.5 rebounds, 6.5 assists, .611 fielding

And Jokic's lack of athleticism is no excuse.
Larry Bird was not athletic, and he was still an elite 2-way player.

Bird wasn't remotely an elite defender. Solid for sure, but he had huge weaknesses and mchale would almost always have to guard anyone with elite foot speed at the 3 or 4 while they moved bird off those guys. Bird and Jokic actually play defensive very similarly.

But Bird was an elite 2-way player, meaning he was a 2-way player and he was elite (known for winning MVPs).
Whereas Jokic is an elite player, but not an elite 2-way player.

Bird was 3-time All-Defensive, which Jokic has no hope of ever being, even if we list Jokic as a Forward, he'd never make an All-Defensive Team.
And Bird wasn't just a smart defender, he hustled WAY more on Defense than Jokic, and Bird had quick reflexes.

Why is Bird a two way player and Jokic isn't? Jokic consistently grades out as a top quartile defender in the league.

And why do you think Jokic doesn't hustle on defense? And how does bird have faster hands that Jokic? Jokic is showing up in the top 5 in steals and deflections...he's got the best hands for someone his size in NBA history.

[dhsilv2]

Interesting to see some posts here. I feel like during the season, people always have him top 10 all time or right on that cusp. Right now I'm seeing a lot lower. Have the Jokic fans not joined the discussion yet? For me he is right around that 15 mark though

I've said his peak is top 10. And that he should end his career top 10. That doesn't make him a top 10 guy yet.

[dhsilv2]

LBJ has only played 2 more games then KAJ, and KAJ played 3 years in college.

Wow that’s interesting- so LeBron is a better scorer not only in longevity but per game

Actually KAJ still has more made buckets.

I find it odd how this forum wants to talk about the playoffs as being all that matters...until it doesn't work. But yes Kareem had more regular season made field goals. Lebron has more playoff and regular season combined ones.