Does this Kobe stance have real merit

[migya]

I personally would have given the 2006 MVP to Kobe but it's debatable. Any one of Nash, Dirk, Duncan, Wade and Lebron could have won it that year. Winning just 45 games hurts his chances and it would be the least wins by any modern MVP so it's not like it's blasphemous that he didn't get it. Although Westbrook got it with 47 wins. In other years, Kobe's case wasn't that great because he never had the luck to combine individual dominance with team success. It was always one or the other but not both and the competition was stiff in some years. From 2000-2002, he was overshadowed by Shaq. In 2003, his great season coincided with Duncan's historic season. In 2004, Garnett had his historic season and the Wolves won more games. In 2005, he was injured and the team missed the playoffs. In 2007, great individually but they won just 42 games. In 2009, Kobe had a fantastic MVP caliber season and the Lakers were fantastic but he was overshadowed by a GOAT-level season by Lebron and the Cavs even won 1 game more. In 2010, weaker season and again overshadowed by Lebron. In 2011, you could have given it to him but Rose was at least his equal statistically and the Bulls won more games. And from 2012 onwards, he never really had a case. So 1-2 MVP's is what you could realistically expect from Kobe the way his career shook out.

Kobe gets underrated a lot by some these days but winning more than 1 MVP isn't indicative of that.

That's really the truth of this matter. Kobe was a top 5 player throughout the 00s but many of the stars had their best seasons individually throughout and overshadowed Kobe by a bit at least.

What is an interesting take in this video is that Lebron gets totally different treatment in regards to success. He had great teams in Miami and onwards, which explains his titles. Kobe quite the opposite and still won two after Shaq, against very good competition also, so that isn't against him.

[homecourtloss]

I personally would have given the 2006 MVP to Kobe but it's debatable. Any one of Nash, Dirk, Duncan, Wade and Lebron could have won it that year. Winning just 45 games hurts his chances and it would be the least wins by any modern MVP so it's not like it's blasphemous that he didn't get it. Although Westbrook got it with 47 wins. In other years, Kobe's case wasn't that great because he never had the luck to combine individual dominance with team success. It was always one or the other but not both and the competition was stiff in some years. From 2000-2002, he was overshadowed by Shaq. In 2003, his great season coincided with Duncan's historic season. In 2004, Garnett had his historic season and the Wolves won more games. In 2005, he was injured and the team missed the playoffs. In 2007, great individually but they won just 42 games. In 2009, Kobe had a fantastic MVP caliber season and the Lakers were fantastic but he was overshadowed by a GOAT-level season by Lebron and the Cavs even won 1 game more. In 2010, weaker season and again overshadowed by Lebron. In 2011, you could have given it to him but Rose was at least his equal statistically and the Bulls won more games. And from 2012 onwards, he never really had a case. So 1-2 MVP's is what you could realistically expect from Kobe the way his career shook out.

Kobe gets underrated a lot by some these days but winning more than 1 MVP isn't indicative of that.

That's really the truth of this matter. Kobe was a top 5 player throughout the 00s but many of the stars had their best seasons individually throughout and overshadowed Kobe by a bit at least.

What is an interesting take in this video is that Lebron gets totally different treatment in regards to success. He had great teams in Miami and onwards, which explains his titles. Kobe quite the opposite and still won two after Shaq, against very good competition also, so that isn't against him.

You should have started with this as this is what you wanted to say.

[migya]

I personally would have given the 2006 MVP to Kobe but it's debatable. Any one of Nash, Dirk, Duncan, Wade and Lebron could have won it that year. Winning just 45 games hurts his chances and it would be the least wins by any modern MVP so it's not like it's blasphemous that he didn't get it. Although Westbrook got it with 47 wins. In other years, Kobe's case wasn't that great because he never had the luck to combine individual dominance with team success. It was always one or the other but not both and the competition was stiff in some years. From 2000-2002, he was overshadowed by Shaq. In 2003, his great season coincided with Duncan's historic season. In 2004, Garnett had his historic season and the Wolves won more games. In 2005, he was injured and the team missed the playoffs. In 2007, great individually but they won just 42 games. In 2009, Kobe had a fantastic MVP caliber season and the Lakers were fantastic but he was overshadowed by a GOAT-level season by Lebron and the Cavs even won 1 game more. In 2010, weaker season and again overshadowed by Lebron. In 2011, you could have given it to him but Rose was at least his equal statistically and the Bulls won more games. And from 2012 onwards, he never really had a case. So 1-2 MVP's is what you could realistically expect from Kobe the way his career shook out.

Kobe gets underrated a lot by some these days but winning more than 1 MVP isn't indicative of that.

That's really the truth of this matter. Kobe was a top 5 player throughout the 00s but many of the stars had their best seasons individually throughout and overshadowed Kobe by a bit at least.

What is an interesting take in this video is that Lebron gets totally different treatment in regards to success. He had great teams in Miami and onwards, which explains his titles. Kobe quite the opposite and still won two after Shaq, against very good competition also, so that isn't against him.

You should have started with this as this is what you wanted to say.

That wasn't the premise of this thread, so it wasn't to be stated earlier. Similar applies to Durant and to a lesser extent Bird and Magic

[One_and_Done]

Basically the focus is on that Kobe performed among GOAT level for particularly the after Shaq years, citing that the 06 season is the greatest scoring season by any player considering the environment (lower scoring avgs in the nba those years). Also that Kobe is the only player with that many number of top 5 mvp voting finishes and only received one mvp, while some players, like Curry, got few top 5 finishes but got more mvps. I think Shaq can be grouped with Kobe in this regard, himself with only one mvp, though he was likely the best player from 99-02.

There is some merit given the facts. Kobe was fairly ball dominant and wasn't Jordan, though trying to very much be at his level.

Except that just isn't true at all. Kobe wasn't a top 20 all-time offensive player in 06 for instance, because offensive potency isn't measured by ppg.

I think it's the situation of the player in context that gives his value. Kobe was quite the ball hog and didn't get passing as a strong point until Gasol got there. His teams after Shaq and before Gasol were rather awful, among the worst it looks among the greats ever, so that works in his favor of how he managed to score as he did in such a tough era and conference. A top offensive player in his era he was.

Kobe's support casts from 05 to 07 were not even close to 'the worst ever', and the lift he gave them was not even close to the best ever. 05-07 was not a historically tough era. In today's league most of those West teams wouldn't make the West playoffs, and the Lakers would be a sub-30 win team at best. Nor was he close to the top offensive player even limited to 'his own era'. Guys like Nash and CP3 for instance were much better; 2 examples I provided to re-emphasise that offensive impact and ppg are not the same thing.

[migya]

Except that just isn't true at all. Kobe wasn't a top 20 all-time offensive player in 06 for instance, because offensive potency isn't measured by ppg.

I think it's the situation of the player in context that gives his value. Kobe was quite the ball hog and didn't get passing as a strong point until Gasol got there. His teams after Shaq and before Gasol were rather awful, among the worst it looks among the greats ever, so that works in his favor of how he managed to score as he did in such a tough era and conference. A top offensive player in his era he was.

Kobe's support casts from 05 to 07 were not even close to 'the worst ever', and the lift he gave them was not even close to the best ever. 05-07 was not a historically tough era. In today's league most of those West teams wouldn't make the West playoffs, and the Lakers would be a sub-30 win team at best. Nor was he close to the top offensive player even limited to 'his own era'. Guys like Nash and CP3 for instance were much better; 2 examples I provided to re-emphasise that offensive impact and ppg are not the same thing.

Compared to other West playoff teams those years, they were certainly worse, probably the worst roster. As most know, the lower scoring in that decade was because it was tougher and much harder to score.

[SlimShady83]

wow, just wow. some of the replies, but I'm not surprsied. That is all.

[Amares]

He wasn't hated by media, it's quite opposite he was most promoted and overrated player by media over and over again for entire decade. They were trying to make him next Jordan at all cost.
It looks like group of casuals can't accept his MVP counting and game impact profile is so distant from his reputation, so they started creating narratives and rewriting history. Instead of accepting he just wasn't top 10 of all-time level player.
I also don't think youtube videos for casuals are a good source of anything, full of catchy slogans, narratives, exaggeration and just false statements. Come on.

[RCM88x]

No

[Narigo]

SkapAttack is LeBron hater and a Kobe stan

[homecourtloss]

That wasn't the premise of this thread, so it wasn't to be stated earlier. Similar applies to Durant and to a lesser extent Bird and Magic

The video creator basically laces every video with some pro-Kobe, anti-LeBron rhetoric. This video shows up in your feed for a reason (or you searched it up—same thing)

SkapAttack is LeBron hater and a Kobe stan

Basically.

[trex_8063]

Never seen the author before. But he seems like an obnoxious shock-jock type.

The first 30-40 seconds of the video led me to believe there wasn’t going to be much "merit" or "evidence" in it, given he starts off by denigrating and degrading anyone who disagrees while showing meme-type laughing clips (generally, anyone who has to resort to such tactics is not arguing from a position of tactical or evidentiary strength).

I was not mistaken, as it turns out.

His "undeniable fact" claims are flat speculation based on little info (with little context).......only slightly better than someone noting that when they wore their red shirt last week, it rained. Therefore his red shirt causes it to rain (it happened, so it's an 'undeniable fact').

He seems to equate ppg to player goodness (which we sure know is not always the case).

These were among some of the many flaws in his 'take'.
I'll admit I was looking at it sideways right from the start, as I often will when someone comes out of the gates snide and aggressively opinionated, starting from a position of "I'm undeniably right, and if you don't agree you're a f***ing idiot" (and then supporting it with, well.....mostly more opinions).

Anyway, my memory of things at the time, fwiw, was also that the media definitely did not "hate" Kobe Bryant. I'd lean narrowly in the other direction, actually.

[D.Brasco]

Anyway, my memory of things at the time, fwiw, was also that the media definitely did not "hate" Kobe Bryant. I'd lean narrowly in the other direction, actually.

And you are correct, he got years of additional all-defensive team selections due to pro media bias when he was well past being a defensive force.

"Mamba mentality" was essentially a media pushed narrative to excuse and praise taking enormous amounts of shots at middling efficiency.

[migya]

Anyway, my memory of things at the time, fwiw, was also that the media definitely did not "hate" Kobe Bryant. I'd lean narrowly in the other direction, actually.

And you are correct, he got years of additional all-defensive team selections due to pro media bias when he was well past being a defensive force.

"Mamba mentality" was essentially a media pushed narrative to excuse and praise taking enormous amounts of shots at middling efficiency.

Kobe certainly wasn't worthy of a number of those defensive team selections but he was carrying his team to some pretty big levels. They had pretty good pieces but Kobe carried the scoring alot. Those Gasol Lakers teams were not a top talent team. Not the worst among playoff teams but not near the most talented and them winning has alot to do with Kobe. He isn't a top 5 player like many seem to think out there, but he isn't as bad as some here seem to think either.

[Asianiac_24]

Kobe’s supporting cast from 05-07 is definitely one of the worst.

At PG, he had Smush Parker, who couldn’t make the team on the league worst Miami Heat the very next year he left LA.

Luke Walton/Devean George at SF is the definition of average. The equivalent level player today would be like Dorian Finney Smith.

Lamar Odom was good, but he was never an all star. A borderline all star.

Kwame is a decent post defender and nothing else. Can’t shoot, can’t post, can’t rim run, can’t block shots.

The team is just poorly constructed all around and doesn’t maximize Kobe. If you want max output from Kobe, surround him with 3&D players. Or start a big man who can run the PR with him. No one except George/Walton on that starting lineup can shoot. Kwame/Turiaf/Brian Cook were not rim runners. We saw what Kobe could do with Bynum or Gasol, he was extremely effective.

[One_and_Done]

Anyway, my memory of things at the time, fwiw, was also that the media definitely did not "hate" Kobe Bryant. I'd lean narrowly in the other direction, actually.

And you are correct, he got years of additional all-defensive team selections due to pro media bias when he was well past being a defensive force.

"Mamba mentality" was essentially a media pushed narrative to excuse and praise taking enormous amounts of shots at middling efficiency.

Actually when Kobe played it was the coaches who voted for all-D teams, but I doubt they took it seriously. Most probably just had a junior assistant coach fill it in for them. Defensive awards have always been a bit sketchy, though today it's gotten a bit better. Certainly Kobe didn't deserve any after about 03.

[kcktiny]

he got years of additional all-defensive team selections due to pro media bias when he was well past being a defensive force.

Kobe certainly wasn't worthy of a number of those defensive team selections

Certainly Kobe didn't deserve any after about 03.

Well now - what we appear to have here is a group of three expert evaluators of NBA defense, who seem to feel they can evaluate player defense better than NBA head coaches of that time.

Well experts, how about the three of you huddle together and tell us this - the 7 seasons after 2002-03 that Bryant was named to the all-defensive 1st team, 2003-04 and 2005-06 to 2010-11, the Lakers as a team ranked 5th best in the league in defensive efficiency at 103.8 pts/100poss allowed. The only teams better defensively over those 7 seasons were San Antonio (100.9), Boston (102.3), Houston (102.8), and Chicago (102.9 pts/100poss allowed). Over that time 25 teams were worse defensively than the Lakers.

The only Lakers player named to the all-defensive team those 7 seasons was Bryant, and he was named all-defensive 1st team each of those 7 seasons. No other Laker was named all-defensive 1st team, nor even named to an all-defensive 2nd team those 7 years.

So if Bryant was not an excellent defender all that time worthy of those all-defensive team selections, just who on the Lakers was very good to excellent on defense such that the team as a whole was the 5th best defensive team over all that time?

Here's some help - the minutes played by key Lakers players over that time:

20630 Kobe Bryant
15884 Lamar Odom
10983 Derek Fisher
09357 Pau Gasol
08062 Andre Bynum
07696 Luke Walton
05585 Sasha Vujacic
05446 Jordan farmar
05230 Smush Parker
05015 Metta World Peace
03619 Kwame Brown
03493 Devean George
03404 Shannon Brown
03240 Vladimir Radmanovic
03065 Brian Cook
02825 Gary Payton
02706 Ronny Turiaf
02464 Shaq
02429 Trevor Ariza
17827 another 32 players

Those first 19 listed players accounted for 87% of the team's total minutes played over those 7 seasons.

So if Kobe Bryant was not an excellent defender all that time, who of the other 18 were such that that Laker's team was 5th best defensively in the league over that 7 year stretch?

[Primedeion]

Best postseason/player performer on four Finals teams and three championship teams including the best postseason team in history (01), one of the better non-champion teams in modern history (08), and one of the dozenish best teams ever (09). Far and away the best player on a team that went to three straight Finals and won multiple titles. Top five scorer OAT. Top ten offensive player OAT by peak and career. One of the five most skilled players in history.

GOAT level offensive peak (06). Best player in the league at his peak. Anchored the #1 offense in his best season. Legit all-defense guard in a bunch of seasons (00, 01, 03, 08, 09, 10). Elite impact throughout his prime while playing a totally non heliocentric role on the best passing teams in the league. Top 12-15 peak OAT. Top ten prime OAT (01-10). Amazing longevity (doesn't matter as much, but still plenty relevant).

Give this resume to literally any player and they'd be consensus top ten all-time, but haters gonna hate.

[RCM88x]

Best postseason/player performer on four Finals teams and three championship teams including the best postseason team in history (01), one of the better non-champion teams in modern history (08), and one of the dozenish best teams ever (09). Far and away the best player on a team that went to three straight Finals and won multiple titles. Top five scorer OAT. Top ten offensive player OAT by peak and career. One of the five most skilled players in history.

GOAT level offensive peak (06). Best player in the league at his peak. Anchored the #1 offense in his best season. Legit all-defense guard in a bunch of seasons (00, 01, 03, 08, 09, 10). Elite impact throughout his prime while playing a totally non heliocentric role on the best passing teams in the league. Top 12-15 peak OAT. Top ten prime OAT (01-10). Amazing longevity (doesn't matter as much, but still plenty relevant).

Give this resume to literally any player and they'd be consensus top ten all-time, but haters gonna hate.

I totally agree, any player with this resume would definitely be top 10, probably higher than that even.

However Kobe certainly doesn't have that resume, nor does any player I know of.

[Jaivl]

I can't think of any other athlete who would have been given the grace he got if they had that Colorado situation occur to them.

Cristiano Ronaldo?

[Cavsfansince84]

I can't think of any other athlete who would have been given the grace he got if they had that Colorado situation occur to them.

Cristiano Ronaldo?

Ya, there's quite a few who would. Once they didn't move ahead with charges though it was easy for the media to act like it never happened.