Does 2025 Giannis have a case over 2025 Wemby?

[RRyder823]

Unfortunately no one has given me an explanation and just says I'm trolling.I'm allowed to have a different opinion, I am persecuted for it, but Giannis FC doesn't have good enough arguments to defend him, why?

Because Giannis is the most overrated of all-time. Not top 5 player in the league for the last 3 years unfortunately (his defense dropped off after 2022). The fact Giannis FC just spews insults and no facts, says a lot about Giannis, doesn't it

I think that you are ignoring a very strong explanation that multiple people have presented: Everything points to Giannis still being a much better offensive player.

Giannis scores more efficiently at substantially higher volume. Giannis was 2nd in the league in scoring, Wemby was 20th-25th (depending where you cut off the inclusion). The difference in scoring output between Giannis and Wemby was the same as the difference between Wemby and Bam Adebayo and Michael Porter Jr., all while Wemby only had one less FGA than Giannis per game.

You showed a chart where Wemby had higher percentages from most zones on the floor (NBA.com has slightly different numbers, but it's not really material). But they both really varied across the zones - with some being more efficient than others - and Giannis managed to take many more of his shots from the efficient zones than Wemby did, so overall he was much more efficient (and he got to the line more).

Giannis also dished out a lot more assists. He's not an amazing passer but he's become a reasonably good one, and his rim pressure gives him lots of drive and kick opportunities to generate good looks for his teammates and the stats reflect that.

I actually agree that Giannis's defense hasn't been as good as it once was the last few years and I rank Wemby substantially higher than him on the defensive end of the floor at this point. And maybe Giannis drops off offensively this coming year and Wemby continues to improve his game greatly. We can't definitively know that.

BUT saying that "no one has given me an explanation" when multiple people have laid out pretty conclusive cases that Giannis was a much better offensive player last year is why people aren't certain of whether you're engaging in good faith.

First good explanation I've seen so far, good job to you

Here we go....

1. So does that mean Duncan > KG as scorers, Duncan scores more volume and more efficient, but KG has a better scoring skillset. Keep in mind Giannis' only options at scoring is finishing (neutralized against elite rim protectors) and transition (bombs in a playoff setting). You can't just take the easier shots and call yourself a better scorer . Wemby is already good at finishing and transition. I'm not saying Giannis is worse as a scorer, but it's closer than people think.

2. Don't place the assists like they mean something. Is John Stockton a better playmaker than Steve Nash? No. It's about how unschemable you are at it and how many counters you have, basically a playmaking skillset. You listed Giannis' only option at playmaking, drive and kick (he's schemable as a driver). Wembanyama is better at every other option in playmaking (Pnr, connecting, DHOs, etc).

3. Wembanyama at this point in his career is genuinely a better defender than Giannis has ever been in his life. Giannis is clearly not top 3. The only things he's good at on defense are roaming and rim protection (which are fringe elite or sub-elite). Wembanyama is better at both of this, BTW. Giannis has shown he's outside the top 50 offensively, and an extremely overrated player on both ends.

4. No one but you, just now have given me a good explanation. This is what I hate about people (I don't hate anyone, I'm not saying I do), they just dismiss new takes that they can't even attack. Ridiculous, in my opinion, but hey, I can't force people to be better.

God bless, and hope you live a blessed life.

This might be the dumbest sentence posted on this board this year and capped off with a "lol" is just /chefs kiss



Sent from my SM-S918U using RealGM mobile app

[Top10alltime]

I think that you are ignoring a very strong explanation that multiple people have presented: Everything points to Giannis still being a much better offensive player.

Giannis scores more efficiently at substantially higher volume. Giannis was 2nd in the league in scoring, Wemby was 20th-25th (depending where you cut off the inclusion). The difference in scoring output between Giannis and Wemby was the same as the difference between Wemby and Bam Adebayo and Michael Porter Jr., all while Wemby only had one less FGA than Giannis per game.

You showed a chart where Wemby had higher percentages from most zones on the floor (NBA.com has slightly different numbers, but it's not really material). But they both really varied across the zones - with some being more efficient than others - and Giannis managed to take many more of his shots from the efficient zones than Wemby did, so overall he was much more efficient (and he got to the line more).

Giannis also dished out a lot more assists. He's not an amazing passer but he's become a reasonably good one, and his rim pressure gives him lots of drive and kick opportunities to generate good looks for his teammates and the stats reflect that.

I actually agree that Giannis's defense hasn't been as good as it once was the last few years and I rank Wemby substantially higher than him on the defensive end of the floor at this point. And maybe Giannis drops off offensively this coming year and Wemby continues to improve his game greatly. We can't definitively know that.

BUT saying that "no one has given me an explanation" when multiple people have laid out pretty conclusive cases that Giannis was a much better offensive player last year is why people aren't certain of whether you're engaging in good faith.

First good explanation I've seen so far, good job to you

Here we go....

1. So does that mean Duncan > KG as scorers, Duncan scores more volume and more efficient, but KG has a better scoring skillset. Keep in mind Giannis' only options at scoring is finishing (neutralized against elite rim protectors) and transition (bombs in a playoff setting). You can't just take the easier shots and call yourself a better scorer . Wemby is already good at finishing and transition. I'm not saying Giannis is worse as a scorer, but it's closer than people think.

2. Don't place the assists like they mean something. Is John Stockton a better playmaker than Steve Nash? No. It's about how unschemable you are at it and how many counters you have, basically a playmaking skillset. You listed Giannis' only option at playmaking, drive and kick (he's schemable as a driver). Wembanyama is better at every other option in playmaking (Pnr, connecting, DHOs, etc).

3. Wembanyama at this point in his career is genuinely a better defender than Giannis has ever been in his life. Giannis is clearly not top 3. The only things he's good at on defense are roaming and rim protection (which are fringe elite or sub-elite). Wembanyama is better at both of this, BTW. Giannis has shown he's outside the top 50 offensively, and an extremely overrated player on both ends.

4. No one but you, just now have given me a good explanation. This is what I hate about people (I don't hate anyone, I'm not saying I do), they just dismiss new takes that they can't even attack. Ridiculous, in my opinion, but hey, I can't force people to be better.

God bless, and hope you live a blessed life.

This might be the dumbest sentence posted on this board this year and capped off with a "lol" is just /chefs kiss



Sent from my SM-S918U using RealGM mobile app

I think you misunderstood. It's not like this all the time, is what I meant. Is Rudy Gobert a better scorer than Kobe Bryant?

[Top10alltime]

1. So does that mean Duncan > KG as scorers, Duncan scores more volume and more efficient, but KG has a better scoring skillset. Keep in mind Giannis' only options at scoring is finishing (neutralized against elite rim protectors) and transition (bombs in a playoff setting). You can't just take the easier shots and call yourself a better scorer . Wemby is already good at finishing and transition. I'm not saying Giannis is worse as a scorer, but it's closer than people think.

2. Don't place the assists like they mean something. Is John Stockton a better playmaker than Steve Nash? No. It's about how unschemable you are at it and how many counters you have, basically a playmaking skillset. You listed Giannis' only option at playmaking, drive and kick (he's schemable as a driver). Wembanyama is better at every other option in playmaking (Pnr, connecting, DHOs, etc).

4. No one but you, just now have given me a good explanation. This is what I hate about people (I don't hate anyone, I'm not saying I do), they just dismiss new takes that they can't even attack. Ridiculous, in my opinion, but hey, I can't force people to be better.

God bless, and hope you live a blessed life.

Most of this sounds like window dressing for the "He has no bag" stuff that many have parroted after the whole Giannis/Harden thing in 2019. Yeah, Durant (similar build player) is a lethal shooter at long distance but if Giannis is consistently getting into the paint and scoring from his spots at an elite and efficient clip (interior & mid-range), does it matter if he doesn't take 5-8 three pointers with a "hesi-tween-splash" or whatever? Moral of the story being that elite players can be dangerous and stylistically different, based on their unique skillsets. That goes for scorers, shooters, passers, etc.

Giannis in the last 2.5 seasons has become a reliable and actually elite mid-range shooter. And I think since he's realized he's not a threat from three he's considerably cut down on attempts, hence why he's become a more efficient offensive player and scorer. Others have pointed this out and have given examples. His passing isn't only drive and kick as well (though that's the main driver of his playmaking), he routinely pushes the ball ahead to shooters in transition and there have been plenty of 'hockey-assists.' He's also gotten a lot more patient at drawing double-teams from the post and the elbows and routinely making skip passes to the corners. And I've been watching virtually all their games. He's also elite as hell at running a high-screen as the lead guard, essentially, with inverted pick-and-rolls with perimeter players because he's one of the greatest handlers ever at his size. Wemby has not shown these traits or qualities with much consistency yet. It's quite possible he develops them as he's a special talent, to be sure.

In Milwaukee's playoff series against eventual Finalists, Indiana, Giannis was 33-15-7 with 65% TS and 70% FT. If that's "bombing in the playoffs" I guess no one's ever been resilient. I just used this series as it's the most recent we have in the NBA. I also think earlier in the thread you claimed that "Giannis sucked against Finland in the bronze medal game" (or possibly in another thread) when he went for 30 pts 17 rbs 6 asts 2 blks while going 9/11 FG and 12/16 FT. So, damn, I guess bring on the suck lol.

I don't really care if you think he's overrated or whatever either, that's your opinion. It doesn't bother me, FYI. But you're coming across to most people like you have an agenda against him.

Finally, we are starting to get good discussion! I hope this continues.....

1. It's not bag, it's skillset. Giannis skillset isn't reliable, and yes, I would not continue on about how overrated, fraudulent, glazed by the media, and bad Giannis is, if this skillset wasn't reliable. The problem here is it isn't reliable. When this happens, Giannis isn't able to translate his only playmaking counter, drive and kick. His finishing is neutralized by elite rim protectors, and his transition drops in the playoffs. Those are his only offensive counters, and they are not reliable. It's the reason he's had millions of failures with this good of a situation. He just isn't reliable, and he needs an extremely specific squad around him to win. He isn't dangerous, noone is scared, watch him not be top 10 this season.

2. He hasn't become an elite mid-range threat, it's all just lies from Giannis FC you're hearing. There's a reason he wasn't hitting mid-range shots against the Pacers. His mid-range shooting has gotten worse from last year, he's missing multiple shots, but all of the hype about his mid-range is from a select few highlights, and not the biggest games where he chokes under pressure. He isn't a reliable shooter outside the paint, and that's facts to anyone who has been watching the games.

3. His passing is only drive & kick. You are telling me, he pushes the pace, and that is clearly not true. This is something guards do.This has been proved in the potential assists, where Giannis is having 72.1% of his converting into 3s. Why? Because he only has drive & kick. His offense relies on shooters, spacers, and advantage creators. WIthout a specific system to help Giannis, his playmaking or his scoring won't convert. I don't know if you've actually watched, but without that system, Giannis will be neutralized. Giannis isn't really that good of a playmaker, or a screener for that matter.

I ain't saying Giannis isn't better on offense, because Giannis comfortably better offensively (the gap is overstated, however). But that defensive gap is too large. Giannis can't guard Wemby. Wemby can guard Giannis. Wemby at this point of his career is better than the best version of Giannis defensively (2020). It's not close.

4. I wasn't talking about that, I was talking about his only traits dropping against elite teams. We saw this happen even in 2023, where Giannis had the biggest chokejob of all-time against an injured Heat team (both Bam and Jimmy injured) that barely made it out of the play-in. Giannis just isn't reliable, when he faces elite teams. And that, is a problem. His FC will glaze him, using only his select few great moments in his lifetime, and ignoring his millions of failures. Giannis isn't good, and he also choked against Turkey. Funny how Giannis FC ignores those types of moments.

Anyways, this is really one of the good discussions I have had with Giannis fans, and I hope they come with more facts (that's been rebuked). Unfortunately, there are really really few that are like you, backing up their statements with facts, so I'm glad you came. I hope you have a blessed day, and may Christ bless you!

[theonlyclutch]

First good explanation I've seen so far, good job to you

Here we go....

1. So does that mean Duncan > KG as scorers, Duncan scores more volume and more efficient, but KG has a better scoring skillset. Keep in mind Giannis' only options at scoring is finishing (neutralized against elite rim protectors) and transition (bombs in a playoff setting). You can't just take the easier shots and call yourself a better scorer . Wemby is already good at finishing and transition. I'm not saying Giannis is worse as a scorer, but it's closer than people think.

2. Don't place the assists like they mean something. Is John Stockton a better playmaker than Steve Nash? No. It's about how unschemable you are at it and how many counters you have, basically a playmaking skillset. You listed Giannis' only option at playmaking, drive and kick (he's schemable as a driver). Wembanyama is better at every other option in playmaking (Pnr, connecting, DHOs, etc).

3. Wembanyama at this point in his career is genuinely a better defender than Giannis has ever been in his life. Giannis is clearly not top 3. The only things he's good at on defense are roaming and rim protection (which are fringe elite or sub-elite). Wembanyama is better at both of this, BTW. Giannis has shown he's outside the top 50 offensively, and an extremely overrated player on both ends.

4. No one but you, just now have given me a good explanation. This is what I hate about people (I don't hate anyone, I'm not saying I do), they just dismiss new takes that they can't even attack. Ridiculous, in my opinion, but hey, I can't force people to be better.

God bless, and hope you live a blessed life.

This might be the dumbest sentence posted on this board this year and capped off with a "lol" is just /chefs kiss



Sent from my SM-S918U using RealGM mobile app

I think you misunderstood. It's not like this all the time, is what I meant. Is Rudy Gobert a better scorer than Kobe Bryant?

Wemby passed out of multiple post-up opportunities while being guarded by Jrue in the Olympics, the notion that he 'has a better scoring skillset' than Giannis just because he can hit 3s at a league average level is hilarious.

[CharityStripe34]

1. So does that mean Duncan > KG as scorers, Duncan scores more volume and more efficient, but KG has a better scoring skillset. Keep in mind Giannis' only options at scoring is finishing (neutralized against elite rim protectors) and transition (bombs in a playoff setting). You can't just take the easier shots and call yourself a better scorer . Wemby is already good at finishing and transition. I'm not saying Giannis is worse as a scorer, but it's closer than people think.

2. Don't place the assists like they mean something. Is John Stockton a better playmaker than Steve Nash? No. It's about how unschemable you are at it and how many counters you have, basically a playmaking skillset. You listed Giannis' only option at playmaking, drive and kick (he's schemable as a driver). Wembanyama is better at every other option in playmaking (Pnr, connecting, DHOs, etc).

4. No one but you, just now have given me a good explanation. This is what I hate about people (I don't hate anyone, I'm not saying I do), they just dismiss new takes that they can't even attack. Ridiculous, in my opinion, but hey, I can't force people to be better.

God bless, and hope you live a blessed life.

Most of this sounds like window dressing for the "He has no bag" stuff that many have parroted after the whole Giannis/Harden thing in 2019. Yeah, Durant (similar build player) is a lethal shooter at long distance but if Giannis is consistently getting into the paint and scoring from his spots at an elite and efficient clip (interior & mid-range), does it matter if he doesn't take 5-8 three pointers with a "hesi-tween-splash" or whatever? Moral of the story being that elite players can be dangerous and stylistically different, based on their unique skillsets. That goes for scorers, shooters, passers, etc.

Giannis in the last 2.5 seasons has become a reliable and actually elite mid-range shooter. And I think since he's realized he's not a threat from three he's considerably cut down on attempts, hence why he's become a more efficient offensive player and scorer. Others have pointed this out and have given examples. His passing isn't only drive and kick as well (though that's the main driver of his playmaking), he routinely pushes the ball ahead to shooters in transition and there have been plenty of 'hockey-assists.' He's also gotten a lot more patient at drawing double-teams from the post and the elbows and routinely making skip passes to the corners. And I've been watching virtually all their games. He's also elite as hell at running a high-screen as the lead guard, essentially, with inverted pick-and-rolls with perimeter players because he's one of the greatest handlers ever at his size. Wemby has not shown these traits or qualities with much consistency yet. It's quite possible he develops them as he's a special talent, to be sure.

In Milwaukee's playoff series against eventual Finalists, Indiana, Giannis was 33-15-7 with 65% TS and 70% FT. If that's "bombing in the playoffs" I guess no one's ever been resilient. I just used this series as it's the most recent we have in the NBA. I also think earlier in the thread you claimed that "Giannis sucked against Finland in the bronze medal game" (or possibly in another thread) when he went for 30 pts 17 rbs 6 asts 2 blks while going 9/11 FG and 12/16 FT. So, damn, I guess bring on the suck lol.

I don't really care if you think he's overrated or whatever either, that's your opinion. It doesn't bother me, FYI. But you're coming across to most people like you have an agenda against him.

Finally, we are starting to get good discussion! I hope this continues.....

2. He hasn't become an elite mid-range threat, it's all just lies from Giannis FC you're hearing. There's a reason he wasn't hitting mid-range shots against the Pacers. His mid-range shooting has gotten worse from last year, he's missing multiple shots, but all of the hype about his mid-range is from a select few highlights, and not the biggest games where he chokes under pressure. He isn't a reliable shooter outside the paint, and that's facts to

Um, for one I've seen virtually all of his games. Throughout his career. So all of your low hanging non sequiturs you can keep them.

And, as for his mid-range numbers a simple google search will suffice. Here was his shot chart.

https://www.statmuse.com/nba/ask?q=giannis+shot+chart+2024-2025

From Google Search:

"In the 2024-25 NBA season, Giannis Antetokounmpo shot 44.2% from the mid-range, ranking among the top players in volume and efficiency for his improved jumpers. He was the 5th player in attempts and makes from mid-range, and in the 15-19 foot range, where he took most of his jumpers, he was second in volume to DeMar DeRozan and shot better than most players.
Key Mid-Range Statistics for 2024-25
Overall Mid-Range Percentage:
44.2%
Mid-Range Makes:
Ranked 5th in the league
Mid-Range Attempts:
Ranked 5th in the league
15-19 Foot Range:
45.1% shooting
16-24 Foot Range:
46% shooting"

It seems like you're on a personal mission and have an agenda with all your "FC" stuff, so despite his multiple Top 3 MVP finishes, All-NBA 1st teams, All-NBA defensive selections (I guess by his personal fan club the NBA media loL). You can think he's the worst player ever and it wouldn't really bother me, I find it amusing. There's much more to life than sports .

[ChumboChappati]

Personally, I don't see the case for Giannis > Wemby. The gap will widen next season and pretty soon we're about to have yet another player wiping Giannis for peak, prime, and career. Could you help me out because I don't see why Wemby isn't already ahead of Giannis, and not top 5 player in the league.

Wemby is top 5 player in NBA but he is not ahead of Giannis yet. My top 5 NBA players are Jokic, Luka, SGA, Giannis and Wemby.

[Handlez]

Lol

The Wemby hype is fun.

[MarcusBrody]

Unfortunately no one has given me an explanation and just says I'm trolling.I'm allowed to have a different opinion, I am persecuted for it, but Giannis FC doesn't have good enough arguments to defend him, why?

Because Giannis is the most overrated of all-time. Not top 5 player in the league for the last 3 years unfortunately (his defense dropped off after 2022). The fact Giannis FC just spews insults and no facts, says a lot about Giannis, doesn't it

I think that you are ignoring a very strong explanation that multiple people have presented: Everything points to Giannis still being a much better offensive player.

Giannis scores more efficiently at substantially higher volume. Giannis was 2nd in the league in scoring, Wemby was 20th-25th (depending where you cut off the inclusion). The difference in scoring output between Giannis and Wemby was the same as the difference between Wemby and Bam Adebayo and Michael Porter Jr., all while Wemby only had one less FGA than Giannis per game.

You showed a chart where Wemby had higher percentages from most zones on the floor (NBA.com has slightly different numbers, but it's not really material). But they both really varied across the zones - with some being more efficient than others - and Giannis managed to take many more of his shots from the efficient zones than Wemby did, so overall he was much more efficient (and he got to the line more).

Giannis also dished out a lot more assists. He's not an amazing passer but he's become a reasonably good one, and his rim pressure gives him lots of drive and kick opportunities to generate good looks for his teammates and the stats reflect that.

I actually agree that Giannis's defense hasn't been as good as it once was the last few years and I rank Wemby substantially higher than him on the defensive end of the floor at this point. And maybe Giannis drops off offensively this coming year and Wemby continues to improve his game greatly. We can't definitively know that.

BUT saying that "no one has given me an explanation" when multiple people have laid out pretty conclusive cases that Giannis was a much better offensive player last year is why people aren't certain of whether you're engaging in good faith.

First good explanation I've seen so far, good job to you

Here we go....

1. So does that mean Duncan > KG as scorers, Duncan scores more volume and more efficient, but KG has a better scoring skillset. Keep in mind Giannis' only options at scoring is finishing (neutralized against elite rim protectors) and transition (bombs in a playoff setting). You can't just take the easier shots and call yourself a better scorer . Wemby is already good at finishing and transition. I'm not saying Giannis is worse as a scorer, but it's closer than people think.

2. Don't place the assists like they mean something. Is John Stockton a better playmaker than Steve Nash? No. It's about how unschemable you are at it and how many counters you have, basically a playmaking skillset. You listed Giannis' only option at playmaking, drive and kick (he's schemable as a driver). Wembanyama is better at every other option in playmaking (Pnr, connecting, DHOs, etc).

3. Wembanyama at this point in his career is genuinely a better defender than Giannis has ever been in his life. Giannis is clearly not top 3. The only things he's good at on defense are roaming and rim protection (which are fringe elite or sub-elite). Wembanyama is better at both of this, BTW. Giannis has shown he's outside the top 50 offensively, and an extremely overrated player on both ends.

4. No one but you, just now have given me a good explanation. This is what I hate about people (I don't hate anyone, I'm not saying I do), they just dismiss new takes that they can't even attack. Ridiculous, in my opinion, but hey, I can't force people to be better.

God bless, and hope you live a blessed life.

1. Yes I would say that a player who scores at a higher volume on better efficiency is a better scorer even if they have more limited scoring variety. Scoring variety can be useful in some cases in providing resilience against teams with certain defensive strengths (though I disagree that Giannis is neutralized against elite rim protectors, the best strategy has been to cut him off away from the rim), but I would take a player who can do one or two things at an elite level than a player who can do many things adequately, provided the player can get the looks that he's good at. And that's the thing with Giannis. He's not just a good scorer at the rim (Wemby is too), Giannis is elite at getting to the rim and getting those easy shots (and fouls). Wemby isn't yet.

I saw later in the thread that you mentioned Gobert vs. Kobe: The reason that doesn't work here as a comparison is that while Gobert is more efficient than Kobe, he isn't at nearly the volume. Giannis has higher volume and efficiency than Wembanyama offensively.

And going more on that comparison, Gobert generates almost none of his own looks (save offensive boards), where as Kobe generated a lot of his. The one way that I could see an argument for a less efficient/lower volume player being a better scorer than a more efficient/higher volume player is if the less efficient player was having to generate all his own looks, where the more efficient player was being spoonfed his. 07/08 Amare Stoudemire scored at a higher volume on higher efficiency than Duncan or KG ever did.* But he was playing with Steve Nash and 70% of his buckets were assisted. Away from Nash he didn't approach that volume on that efficiency.

Giannis generates a lot more of his shots than Wembanyama does at this point. Last year Giannis was assisted on 42% of his 2PM and 50% of his 3PM. Wemby was assisted on 70% of his two pointers and 86% of his three pointers. The ability to get his own looks makes Giannis a much more valuable offensive player at this point.


* Edit: I missed one season where TD did average 0.3 pts more than Amare did in 2007/8, though on lower efficiency. Also, Amare's 04/05 season pre-Nash was also pretty great, though he was notably less - but still - efficient. Using him in this example doesn't mean I think Amare wasn't a great offensive player. He was.

[AussieBuck]

I guess this is the standard we walk by on this board. Good job guys.

[GoldenAntlers]

It's bad enough dealing with national media.

[MarcusBrody]

I guess this is the standard we walk by on this board. Good job guys.

I mean, you have OP, and you have 4 pages of almost literally everyone telling them that they're wrong. Not exactly revealing an anti-Giannis bias on the board.

[mattg]

People hyping Wemby's exceedingly underwhelming style of offense is fun. He's currently the single most overrated offensive player in the NBA. Dude is 7'5'' and just settles for long jumpers and isn't uber efficient in doing so. That's objectively not a valuable archetype if the goal is contending and winning since he doesn't remotely create spacing for the team being out there on the perimeter.