How are people not putting Jokic in their top 15 yet?

[dhsilv2]

If you’re being honest, I quantified every argument I made. And a Jokic team has only been a top 10 defense once since he entered his prime.

No, you attempted to qualify your opinions. You couldn't quantify how they impact the results. I kept trying to get you to do so and you absolutely refused to even try.

You’re entitled to your opinion. Not interested in relitigating

Not an opinion. You didn't try and quantify the impact on the final score. I asked over and over. I explained it over and over. You didn't do it or try. You wanted to provide stats on that Jokic wasn't a good shot blocker. But that doesn't quantity the impact to the final score. I've seen more than enough of your posts with me and elsewhere. You're not an idiot. You're not stupid. You just refused to engage in quantifying it because you couldn't do it and weren't humble enough to say you can't and explain why you still feel he's a negative despite STRONG data and numbers both from our best metrics and my back of the envelope add ons to try and get you to engage. Nothing wrong with not wanting to go down a rabbit hole, but don't deny it now.

[DimesandKnicks]

No, you attempted to qualify your opinions. You couldn't quantify how they impact the results. I kept trying to get you to do so and you absolutely refused to even try.

You’re entitled to your opinion. Not interested in relitigating

Not an opinion. You didn't try and quantify the impact on the final score. I asked over and over. I explained it over and over. You didn't do it or try. You wanted to provide stats on that Jokic wasn't a good shot blocker. But that doesn't quantity the impact to the final score. I've seen more than enough of your posts with me and elsewhere. You're not an idiot. You're not stupid. You just refused to engage in quantifying it because you couldn't do it and weren't humble enough to say you can't and explain why you still feel he's a negative despite STRONG data and numbers both from our best metrics and my back of the envelope add ons to try and get you to engage. Nothing wrong with not wanting to go down a rabbit hole, but don't deny it now.

Again, you’re entitled to your opinion. I’m not interested in re-litigating it.

I provided plenty of advanced metrics. Your more than welcome to look through the old threads to refresh your memory instead of outright lying

[dhsilv2]

You’re entitled to your opinion. Not interested in relitigating

Not an opinion. You didn't try and quantify the impact on the final score. I asked over and over. I explained it over and over. You didn't do it or try. You wanted to provide stats on that Jokic wasn't a good shot blocker. But that doesn't quantity the impact to the final score. I've seen more than enough of your posts with me and elsewhere. You're not an idiot. You're not stupid. You just refused to engage in quantifying it because you couldn't do it and weren't humble enough to say you can't and explain why you still feel he's a negative despite STRONG data and numbers both from our best metrics and my back of the envelope add ons to try and get you to engage. Nothing wrong with not wanting to go down a rabbit hole, but don't deny it now.

Again, you’re entitled to your opinion. I’m not interested in re-litigating it.

I provided plenty of advanced metrics. Your more than welcome to look through the old threads to refresh your memory instead of outright lying

Again, I'm stating a fact. You're not entitled to make up facts which you're weirdly doing here.

Nobody said anything about advanced metrics. You didn't quantify anything in terms of points. Go back and read it. You didn't do it. That isn't an opinion. It's a fact.

Why are you making stuff up now? We did this already...and you refused to try and quantity your opinions. Why are you lying now about it? That's so weird.

[DimesandKnicks]

Not an opinion. You didn't try and quantify the impact on the final score. I asked over and over. I explained it over and over. You didn't do it or try. You wanted to provide stats on that Jokic wasn't a good shot blocker. But that doesn't quantity the impact to the final score. I've seen more than enough of your posts with me and elsewhere. You're not an idiot. You're not stupid. You just refused to engage in quantifying it because you couldn't do it and weren't humble enough to say you can't and explain why you still feel he's a negative despite STRONG data and numbers both from our best metrics and my back of the envelope add ons to try and get you to engage. Nothing wrong with not wanting to go down a rabbit hole, but don't deny it now.

Again, you’re entitled to your opinion. I’m not interested in re-litigating it.

I provided plenty of advanced metrics. Your more than welcome to look through the old threads to refresh your memory instead of outright lying

Again, I'm stating a fact. You're not entitled to make up facts which you're weirdly doing here.

Nobody said anything about advanced metrics. You didn't quantify anything in terms of points. Go back and read it. You didn't do it. That isn't an opinion. It's a fact.

Why are you making stuff up now? We did this already...and you refused to try and quantity your opinions. Why are you lying now about it? That's so weird.

Go to sleep mate

[dhsilv2]

Again, you’re entitled to your opinion. I’m not interested in re-litigating it.

I provided plenty of advanced metrics. Your more than welcome to look through the old threads to refresh your memory instead of outright lying

Again, I'm stating a fact. You're not entitled to make up facts which you're weirdly doing here.

Nobody said anything about advanced metrics. You didn't quantify anything in terms of points. Go back and read it. You didn't do it. That isn't an opinion. It's a fact.

Why are you making stuff up now? We did this already...and you refused to try and quantity your opinions. Why are you lying now about it? That's so weird.

Go to sleep mate

Man I don't mean to be rude. But stop being a liar. It's getting absurd.

post the stats if you did.

[Raps in 4]

It's because he only has 1 title. People saying it's because he doesn't play defence are lying because they have Magic and Steph in their top-10, and both of those guys were traffic cones on defence.

Jokic's biggest mistake was not leaving Denver. Same with Giannis in Milwaukee. Both guys are easily top-15 all-time players in terms of talent. But they won't get taken seriously by sports historians because they're going to retire with just 1 title each.

LeBron and KD realized the importance of rings and started ring-chasing at an early age. These Euros are too loyal to the teams that draft them. Luka's career was saved by Adam Silver. Dude would have retired ringless on the Mavs.

[BelgradeNugget]

I've Jokic outside of my top 20 and the reason is his defense. These past playoffs was the first time I really watched all Denver games and I was surprised how bad his defense is because I always read here in these forums that he's a good defender. He's of course a generation talented on the offensive end and if his defense would be better I'd easily rank him top 10 all time but so far he isn't in the top 20 for me.

Past season they played worst defense in the last 10 years, all of the Nuggets, for various reasons. So you have seen his (Nuggets) playoff lows. If you have time and will go look 2023 playoffs, their playoff highs.
This way you will have better picture

I don't know man, I watched Serbia vs Finland and his defense wasn't good either.

I agree. Before that game him and Nikola Jović were sick, they had flu for 2 days with temperature.
But on EC, again his defense was bad too.
If you want to watch the best him/Nuggets can play go to 2023 playoffs

[Top10alltime]

It's because he only has 1 title. People saying it's because he doesn't play defence are lying because they have Magic and Steph in their top-10, and both of those guys were traffic cones on defence.

Jokic's biggest mistake was not leaving Denver. Same with Giannis in Milwaukee. Both guys are easily top-15 all-time players in terms of talent. But they won't get taken seriously by sports historians because they're going to retire with just 1 title each.

LeBron and KD realized the importance of rings and started ring-chasing at an early age. These Euros are too loyal to the teams that draft them. Luka's career was saved by Adam Silver. Dude would have retired ringless on the Mavs.

To the bolded, . Giannis' isn't a top 50 all-time player. He sucks and isn't elite on either end. Isn't top 30 defensively or top 50 offensively. He is the most overrated, horrible basketball player ever, and is only good at finishing, transition, and drive and kick neutralized by elite personnel. His sub elite rim protection and roaming isn't good enough to even put him over Shaq defensively. Giannis' is just horrible whether people like it or not. Jokic isn't.

To the underlined, I want EVERYONE to hear this out. If Jokic is bad at defense, why are we putting Steph & Magic in the top 10 all-time, when they're worse than Jokic on defense objectively, by about every measure (yes, including rim protection). Please, answer the question.

[Top10alltime]

Objective and fair analysis wise, neither Giannis nor Jokic is top 15 all time. And neither one of them has any case or argument for being placed that high.

They both need to do quite a bit more in their careers, before they enter into the top 15 all time discussion.

He’s been the best player in the world 3 separate seasons at the most competitive time in the history of the league. Here’s a complete list of players who have 3 seasons as the consensus best player at any point:

Mikan
Russell
Wilt
Kareem
Bird
Jordan
Shaq
Duncan
LeBron
Jokic

Considering that he also has the best box score numbers in history and some of the best impact numbers too, I don’t see how he’s not in the top 15 unless you’re just super hung up on rings culture.

He has been the clear best in the world from 2022 all the way up until now. Unless Wemby catches up and becomes the GOAT like I predict, Jokic will never fall as the BITW. It's not arguable he's the best in 22, 23, and 24 if you don't count Embiid. 25, he's comfortably the best. Argument for 21 too.

Jokic is definitely top 15, and if people are saying oh his defense sucks, they're greatly dimishing his numbers, his rim protection and good PnR defense, etc. And if so, Magic, Bird, Curry, Russell should be nowhere near that top 15 either.

[Top10alltime]

Because the league history is full of amazing players that had remarkable careers?

Hey 70sfan good to see you in GB!

Also, Jokic is one of the top 15 remarkable players. He is getting grossly underrated. He's done enough and he's in there (honestly someone could move me to put him top 10).

Nothing wrong with having someone with 745 regular season games and less than 100 playoff games a bit further down one's list or higher up based on the peaked levels he's played at.

He has Larry Bird in the top 15.... Jokic clears Bird production-wise on the court, and has played in a far better peak, and prime at this point. Jokic clears Bird on both ends, and should EASILY make the top 15 at this point.

[dhsilv2]

Hey 70sfan good to see you in GB!

Also, Jokic is one of the top 15 remarkable players. He is getting grossly underrated. He's done enough and he's in there (honestly someone could move me to put him top 10).

Nothing wrong with having someone with 745 regular season games and less than 100 playoff games a bit further down one's list or higher up based on the peaked levels he's played at.

He has Larry Bird in the top 15.... Jokic clears Bird production-wise on the court, and has played in a far better peak, and prime at this point. Jokic clears Bird on both ends, and should EASILY make the top 15 at this point.

Bird has a career WS of 145 to Jokic's 128. I don't even have to dig to show that there's a longevity gap still between the two.

[TheGeneral99]

I've Jokic outside of my top 20 and the reason is his defense. These past playoffs was the first time I really watched all Denver games and I was surprised how bad his defense is because I always read here in these forums that he's a good defender. He's of course a generation talented on the offensive end and if his defense would be better I'd easily rank him top 10 all time but so far he isn't in the top 20 for me.

If defense is your issue then you would agree that Dirk and Curry should not be in the top 20? I don't think many people would agree with that.

In my opinion, while Jokic isn't a great defender, he's not a bad one, and he's an elite rebounder.

But that's the thing, there is a significant difference between a pg being a mediocre defender and a center being a mediocre defender. If your pg is a mediocre defender but you've a good defensive center your defense is still going to be good but if your center is a mediocre defender then he's probably getting exposed in the playoffs.

But he doesn't get exposed in the playoffs.

He had a dominant finals run in 2023, and nearly beat the champion Thunder this year.

[dhsilv2]

If defense is your issue then you would agree that Dirk and Curry should not be in the top 20? I don't think many people would agree with that.

In my opinion, while Jokic isn't a great defender, he's not a bad one, and he's an elite rebounder.

But that's the thing, there is a significant difference between a pg being a mediocre defender and a center being a mediocre defender. If your pg is a mediocre defender but you've a good defensive center your defense is still going to be good but if your center is a mediocre defender then he's probably getting exposed in the playoffs.

But he doesn't get exposed in the playoffs.

He had a dominant finals run in 2023, and nearly beat the champion Thunder this year.

Brother...did you not see what OKC did? They were averaging 115.4 points per 100. That's only 3.9 under their regular season average....against a team with the 22nd rated defense. And in the playoffs teams scored...wait umm 6.6 less points per 100 when Jokic played. So clearly...wait...wait...oh Jokic was better on defense in the playoffs than regular season?

See exposed. As a decent playoff defender!

[Rubios]

Are we talking BEST or GREATEST?
Even if he retires tomorrow, Jokic is without a doubt one of the 15 best bb players ever. Where is the debate?

Now, greatest? I got him exactly at 15 being a big fan and I believe most people put him slightly below, so far.

[hardenASG13]

It's because he only has 1 title. People saying it's because he doesn't play defence are lying because they have Magic and Steph in their top-10, and both of those guys were traffic cones on defence.

Jokic's biggest mistake was not leaving Denver. Same with Giannis in Milwaukee. Both guys are easily top-15 all-time players in terms of talent. But they won't get taken seriously by sports historians because they're going to retire with just 1 title each.

LeBron and KD realized the importance of rings and started ring-chasing at an early age. These Euros are too loyal to the teams that draft them. Luka's career was saved by Adam Silver. Dude would have retired ringless on the Mavs.

To the bolded, . Giannis' isn't a top 50 all-time player. He sucks and isn't elite on either end. Isn't top 30 defensively or top 50 offensively. He is the most overrated, horrible basketball player ever, and is only good at finishing, transition, and drive and kick neutralized by elite personnel. His sub elite rim protection and roaming isn't good enough to even put him over Shaq defensively. Giannis' is just horrible whether people like it or not. Jokic isn't.

To the underlined, I want EVERYONE to hear this out. If Jokic is bad at defense, why are we putting Steph & Magic in the top 10 all-time, when they're worse than Jokic on defense objectively, by about every measure (yes, including rim protection). Please, answer the question.

Magic had 5 titles and 9 finals appearances in his 13 year career. His Lakers teams averaged 59 wins per year. Curry has won 4 NBA finals, and made it 5 times, and led a team to 73 wins. Two of the titles were with a stacked deck, ill give you that. Both players warped an opposing defense (magic with his creativity and ability to get downhill, Curry with his movement and shooting ability) way more so than Jokic and his top of the key DHO/passing game and limited shot repetior (which boosts his apg and percentages, and has some here convinced hes more than what he is....until its time to play a good team in the playoffs. The same thing, that I agree, is true with Giannis). He doesn't warp an opposing defense to the levels of a curry or magic, not to mention his role as a center makes him being a poor defender more important than the defensive role of curry or magic.

[iggymcfrack]

Nothing wrong with having someone with 745 regular season games and less than 100 playoff games a bit further down one's list or higher up based on the peaked levels he's played at.

He has Larry Bird in the top 15.... Jokic clears Bird production-wise on the court, and has played in a far better peak, and prime at this point. Jokic clears Bird on both ends, and should EASILY make the top 15 at this point.

Bird has a career WS of 145 to Jokic's 128. I don't even have to dig to show that there's a longevity gap still between the two.

Win shares are designed to have a bias toward players with better teammates. Bird had McHale, Parish, DJ, and Ainge. Jokic is the only player to ever win a title without an all-star and for his career the Nuggets have a long differential of -5.2 with him on the bench.

If we instead look at career VORP which doesn’t have the winning bias, Bird’s lead is only 77 to 73. I have to admit, I expected Jokic to be ahead already, but apparently he’s still about 30 games away.

[dhsilv2]

He has Larry Bird in the top 15.... Jokic clears Bird production-wise on the court, and has played in a far better peak, and prime at this point. Jokic clears Bird on both ends, and should EASILY make the top 15 at this point.

Bird has a career WS of 145 to Jokic's 128. I don't even have to dig to show that there's a longevity gap still between the two.

Win shares are designed to have a bias toward players with better teammates. Bird had McHale, Parish, DJ, and Ainge. Jokic is the only player to ever win a title without an all-star and for his career the Nuggets have a long differential of -5.2 with him on the bench.

If we instead look at career VORP which doesn’t have the winning bias, Bird’s lead is only 77 to 73. I have to admit, I expected Jokic to be ahead already, but apparently he’s still about 30 games away.

There's some issues with VORP and Jokic that leads me to feel it's best to avoid it for now. The point is that there's a gap between the two still in games played. It's more pronounced with playoffs, obviously to your point, that's driven by better teammates. But the point remains it's not unreasonable to still have Bird ahead. I won't argue with you if you have Jokic ahead either.

[DimesandKnicks]

But that's the thing, there is a significant difference between a pg being a mediocre defender and a center being a mediocre defender. If your pg is a mediocre defender but you've a good defensive center your defense is still going to be good but if your center is a mediocre defender then he's probably getting exposed in the playoffs.

But he doesn't get exposed in the playoffs.

He had a dominant finals run in 2023, and nearly beat the champion Thunder this year.

Brother...did you not see what OKC did? They were averaging 115.4 points per 100. That's only 3.9 under their regular season average....against a team with the 22nd rated defense. And in the playoffs teams scored...wait umm 6.6 less points per 100 when Jokic played. So clearly...wait...wait...oh Jokic was better on defense in the playoffs than regular season?

See exposed. As a decent playoff defender!

Jokic's 2025 playoff metrics on defense:

Opp point in the paint: 215 out of 219 qualifying players and last across the C position
Opp fast break points: Jokic — the huste back on defense guy — ranked 212 out of 219 players
Opp FG Made: Jokic was 160 out of 211, one spot ahead of Jamaal Murray
Opp FG percentage: 109 out of 209, a few spots ahead of KAT

He was 5th in deflections, behind Schroeder, Josh Hart, Luka, Kawhi and Sengun. Outside of Kawhi and Schroeder I don’t consider any of these players plus defenders

When defending the ball handler on a PNR, he’s 11 in FGM. Players shoot the 31st highest FG percentage against him out of 128, in otherwords he’s 97thish out of 128 in this situation

Jokic was second in DFGM and DFGA. A few spots after him is, again, Jamaal Murray, KAT is 8 spots below him. Jokic likely would have been first, meaning no other player had more points scored on them per game in the playoffs if the player in front of him, Zubac, wasn’t responsible for guarding him.

Def FG percentage he’s ranked 55 out of 74 players who’ve defended at least 5 shot attempts.
His diff is -1.9 which is significantly better than his -0.4 in the regular season, meaning players in the regular season only shot -0.4 percent worse when he was the closest player to them, and -1.9 in the playoffs. Still, that makes him 70 out of 133 players who defended at least 5 shots a game, ahead of him are Kat, Luka, Julius Randle, and Lebron James.

These are the same stats that that I gave in last years discussions (that either you dont remember, because you called me a liar, or just don't think matters more than deflections, rebounds and kick balls, the latter of which he had none during the playoffs and only had a 13 in the regular season, a few spots behind KAT's 21ish...again one of the worse defenders I've ever seen) and the numbers are pretty much the same. I'm not sure if you can reconcile with how this impacts points, but from my viewpoint, he gets scored on the most - despite never being tasked to defend a high level offensive player-and opposing players are relatively efficient when he's the only threat between them and the basket.

[dhsilv2]

But he doesn't get exposed in the playoffs.

He had a dominant finals run in 2023, and nearly beat the champion Thunder this year.

Brother...did you not see what OKC did? They were averaging 115.4 points per 100. That's only 3.9 under their regular season average....against a team with the 22nd rated defense. And in the playoffs teams scored...wait umm 6.6 less points per 100 when Jokic played. So clearly...wait...wait...oh Jokic was better on defense in the playoffs than regular season?

See exposed. As a decent playoff defender!

Jokic's 2025 playoff metrics on defense:

Opp point in the paint: 215 out of 219 qualifying players and last across the C position
Opp fast break points: Jokic — the huste back on defense guy — ranked 212 out of 219 players
Opp FG Made: Jokic was 160 out of 211, one spot ahead of Jamaal Murray
Opp FG percentage: 109 out of 209, a few spots ahead of KAT

He was 5th in deflections, behind Schroeder, Josh Hart, Luka, Kawhi and Sengun. Outside of Kawhi and Schroeder I don’t consider any of these players plus defenders

When defending the ball handler on a PNR, he’s 11 in FGM. Players shoot the 31st highest FG percentage against him out of 128, in otherwords he’s 97thish out of 128 in this situation

Jokic was second in DFGM and DFGA. A few spots after him is, again, Jamaal Murray, KAT is 8 spots below him. Jokic likely would have been first, meaning no other player had more points scored on them per game in the playoffs if the player in front of him, Zubac, wasn’t responsible for guarding him.

Def FG percentage he’s ranked 55 out of 74 players who’ve defended at least 5 shot attempts.
His diff is -1.9 which is significantly better than his -0.4 in the regular season, meaning players in the regular season only shot -0.4 percent worse when he was the closest player to them, and -1.9 in the playoffs. Still, that makes him 70 out of 133 players who defended at least 5 shots a game, ahead of him are Kat, Luka, Julius Randle, and Lebron James.

These are the same stats that that I gave in last years discussions (that either you dont remember, because you called me a liar, or just don't think matters more than deflections, rebounds and kick balls, the latter of which he had none during the playoffs and only had a 13 in the regular season, a few spots behind KAT's 21ish...again one of the worse defenders I've ever seen) and the numbers are pretty much the same. I'm not sure if you can reconcile with how this impacts points, but from my viewpoint, he gets scored on the most - despite never being tasked to defend a high level offensive player-and opposing players are relatively efficient when he's the only threat between them and the basket.

So quantify it

[Raps in 4]

It's because he only has 1 title. People saying it's because he doesn't play defence are lying because they have Magic and Steph in their top-10, and both of those guys were traffic cones on defence.

Jokic's biggest mistake was not leaving Denver. Same with Giannis in Milwaukee. Both guys are easily top-15 all-time players in terms of talent. But they won't get taken seriously by sports historians because they're going to retire with just 1 title each.

LeBron and KD realized the importance of rings and started ring-chasing at an early age. These Euros are too loyal to the teams that draft them. Luka's career was saved by Adam Silver. Dude would have retired ringless on the Mavs.

To the bolded, . Giannis' isn't a top 50 all-time player. He sucks and isn't elite on either end. Isn't top 30 defensively or top 50 offensively. He is the most overrated, horrible basketball player ever, and is only good at finishing, transition, and drive and kick neutralized by elite personnel. His sub elite rim protection and roaming isn't good enough to even put him over Shaq defensively. Giannis' is just horrible whether people like it or not. Jokic isn't.

To the underlined, I want EVERYONE to hear this out. If Jokic is bad at defense, why are we putting Steph & Magic in the top 10 all-time, when they're worse than Jokic on defense objectively, by about every measure (yes, including rim protection). Please, answer the question.

Magic had 5 titles and 9 finals appearances in his 13 year career. His Lakers teams averaged 59 wins per year. Curry has won 4 NBA finals, and made it 5 times, and led a team to 73 wins. Two of the titles were with a stacked deck, ill give you that. Both players warped an opposing defense (magic with his creativity and ability to get downhill, Curry with his movement and shooting ability) way more so than Jokic and his top of the key DHO/passing game and limited shot repetior (which boosts his apg and percentages, and has some here convinced hes more than what he is....until its time to play a good team in the playoffs. The same thing, that I agree, is true with Giannis). He doesn't warp an opposing defense to the levels of a curry or magic, not to mention his role as a center makes him being a poor defender more important than the defensive role of curry or magic.

Magic played with 19x All-Star/15x All-NBA/6x MVP, Kareem Abdul Jabar, and 7x All-Star/2x All-NBA, James Worthy.

Curry played with 15x All-Star/11x All-NBA/1x MVP, Kevin Durant, and 5x All-Star/2x All-NBA, Klay Thomspon.

Jokic's second best player is 0x All-Star/0x All-NBA player, Jamal Murray.

Giannis' second best player was 3x All-Star/0x All-NBA player, Khris Middleton.