Vucevic Trade Watch 2025

[MikeDC]

I have two questions, who are we targeting in these hypothetical midseason trades and who are we targeting in free agency with all that cap space? I don't see any difference makers being available for Heurter Vuc and our eternal late lottery picks, and Coby himself is already the most intriguing free agent of next summer, unless we want to gamble a bunch of money on Porzingis? Or hope Eason doesn't already sign an extension in Houston?

This is why we're better off making deals to acquire picks for taking on bad contracts. There is really not anyone out there it makes sense to actively seek out in trade that I can tell.

[MikeDC]

I certainly wouldn't debate Vuc is the best center for this team right now. Most NBA teams are not in our position. Many have plenty of good defenders, rim protecting power forwards, etc. I disagree firmly whether most teams would take Collins or Smith over Vuc for roughly equivalent money. Those guys are literally career backups. There are a lot or personal feelings about Vuc that ignore the fact that he's started forever for two NBA teams averaging around 18 and 11 while Collins and Smith go from team to team and never start. Theres no evidence that teams would prefer Collins or Smith over Vuc at all.

People are kind of overreacting to the fact that he's had no offers. RFA's are taking the QO, teams are swallowing huge contracts to add a Myles Turner, and I'd expect teams to try to lowball us. We probably have received some lowball offers, but no teams have money and he's an unrestricted free agent next year, so no rush for other teams. Add in the fact that many teams lost their principal players (Tatum, Haliburton, etc) and are not really competitive, I think the market has as much to do with it as anything else. Far as I know, we haven't received calls on Collins or Smith either, plus a few centers were signed and traded this summer. Naz Reid and Myles Turner were options this summer for around the same money.

Asset wise too, there's no downside to keeping Vuc until the deadline if there are no solid offers now. Whether as part of a big trade package, cap clearing move for another, replacement for an injured center, there's value in holding Vuc to possibly get more assets. Biggest problem is the prevailing opinion Donovan won't play him with the second unit, but that's a Billy problem, not a Vucevic. For our team, he could be crazy valuable running with the second unit, we have no scoring there.

You may be right that Billy not playing him off the bench is a Billy problem, but we're stuck with Billy, so Vuc being here (where he'll 100% start) is a fan problem. Watching football today, I have my analogy for Vuc. He's a great running quarterback who cannot pass a lick. Arguments as to whether he's good or not, seem to depend on how important defense is to someone.

As of now, there are no teams who want Vuc given his contract. Next off season, we'll need to make a decision on Coby, and to me, a big part of that question is what this team looks like with a lot of good defense on the floor next to Coby and Giddey. Starting Vuc we are losing the insight that we otherwise could gain on that topic.

My belief is that we already have the insight, most just don't like it.

1. I think Smith is similar to Pat in the sense that because the Bulls took a chance on him, people want to assume that just because he's not playing that the Bulls must just be misusing him or something.

But the truth is, he was exactly the same in Indiana. Carlisle wanted to play him, but he was bad and he fell out of the rotation. Outside of like a month or two he wasn't a good shooter. Defensively he's basically a Vuc level defender. While he blocks more shots, his general defensive awareness is pretty low and he's not strong enough to body up on bigger centers that Vuc can. He's at Vuc level in most defensive stats. He doesn't set screens all that well.

With the Pacers, he had moments where he looked good, but he was injury prone, doesn't appear to have good stamina, and was continually being relegated to the bench. Exactly like with the Bulls. Essentially, he's a tease.

And here's the thing. We aren't gaining any insight from watching games because the team spends a huge amount more time practicing than it does in games. If Smith were the better option, he'd be playing. Take insight from the fact that on two different teams with different but hall of fame coaches, both of which needed a guy who was, on paper, like Jalen Smith, the reality of Jalen Smith didn't fit the bill.

In a way, it'd be better to trade him than it would to trade Vuc, because at least Vuc is off the books next season

[League Circles]

Smith is wildly better on defense than Vuc. Not saying he's a strong defender at the C position, but he's at least average IMO. Vuc rarely even pretends to contest shots and is legitimately among the very worst defenders in the NBA.

[sco]

I certainly wouldn't debate Vuc is the best center for this team right now. Most NBA teams are not in our position. Many have plenty of good defenders, rim protecting power forwards, etc. I disagree firmly whether most teams would take Collins or Smith over Vuc for roughly equivalent money. Those guys are literally career backups. There are a lot or personal feelings about Vuc that ignore the fact that he's started forever for two NBA teams averaging around 18 and 11 while Collins and Smith go from team to team and never start. Theres no evidence that teams would prefer Collins or Smith over Vuc at all.

People are kind of overreacting to the fact that he's had no offers. RFA's are taking the QO, teams are swallowing huge contracts to add a Myles Turner, and I'd expect teams to try to lowball us. We probably have received some lowball offers, but no teams have money and he's an unrestricted free agent next year, so no rush for other teams. Add in the fact that many teams lost their principal players (Tatum, Haliburton, etc) and are not really competitive, I think the market has as much to do with it as anything else. Far as I know, we haven't received calls on Collins or Smith either, plus a few centers were signed and traded this summer. Naz Reid and Myles Turner were options this summer for around the same money.

Asset wise too, there's no downside to keeping Vuc until the deadline if there are no solid offers now. Whether as part of a big trade package, cap clearing move for another, replacement for an injured center, there's value in holding Vuc to possibly get more assets. Biggest problem is the prevailing opinion Donovan won't play him with the second unit, but that's a Billy problem, not a Vucevic. For our team, he could be crazy valuable running with the second unit, we have no scoring there.

You may be right that Billy not playing him off the bench is a Billy problem, but we're stuck with Billy, so Vuc being here (where he'll 100% start) is a fan problem. Watching football today, I have my analogy for Vuc. He's a great running quarterback who cannot pass a lick. Arguments as to whether he's good or not, seem to depend on how important defense is to someone.

As of now, there are no teams who want Vuc given his contract. Next off season, we'll need to make a decision on Coby, and to me, a big part of that question is what this team looks like with a lot of good defense on the floor next to Coby and Giddey. Starting Vuc we are losing the insight that we otherwise could gain on that topic.

My belief is that we already have the insight, most just don't like it.

1. I think Smith is similar to Pat in the sense that because the Bulls took a chance on him, people want to assume that just because he's not playing that the Bulls must just be misusing him or something.

But the truth is, he was exactly the same in Indiana. Carlisle wanted to play him, but he was bad and he fell out of the rotation. Outside of like a month or two he wasn't a good shooter. Defensively he's basically a Vuc level defender. While he blocks more shots, his general defensive awareness is pretty low and he's not strong enough to body up on bigger centers that Vuc can. He's at Vuc level in most defensive stats. He doesn't set screens all that well.

With the Pacers, he had moments where he looked good, but he was injury prone, doesn't appear to have good stamina, and was continually being relegated to the bench. Exactly like with the Bulls. Essentially, he's a tease.

And here's the thing. We aren't gaining any insight from watching games because the team spends a huge amount more time practicing than it does in games. If Smith were the better option, he'd be playing. Take insight from the fact that on two different teams with different but hall of fame coaches, both of which needed a guy who was, on paper, like Jalen Smith, the reality of Jalen Smith didn't fit the bill.

In a way, it'd be better to trade him than it would to trade Vuc, because at least Vuc is off the books next season

I completely agree that if Billy isn't going to play him, we should totally trade him. I think he has value around the league on his deal. IMO, Billy has a philosophy of playing the highly paid vets almost independently of performance. It does work in terms of keeping the squeaky wheels quiet and not losing the team on a non-contending team. Not sure if its him or AK with that directive. Vuc is one of those guys. He played Smith until we got Collins and then Collins took his role, as he was likely tasked to see what we had in our new acquisitions. To your point, I think Smith was dealing with some sort of injury in the latter part of the season.

I think you are flat out wrong about his defense. IMO he's an above average defender and miles ahead of Vuc's league worst defense.

[ChettheJet]

There are a boatload of problems holding up any Vuc trade/ Once he's gone the Bulls really could use a 3rd center. The Bulls don't want to get an overpaid backup center who maybe has 2 years remaining in return that defeats the purpose of the trade.
There are teams who could probably send the Bulls a guard or two to match salaries, but the Bulls already have too many guards and nowhere to send them
They don't want to bother taking back a young PF because they have Matas and Noa for the present and future.
A team interested in Vuc's expiring contract would have to give up a player or pair with an even higher priced contract if any of the other expirings are added to the deal. No team wanting Vuc's expiring contract would have any interest in Patrick and his deal as part of any trade.
I don't understand how Vuc can be a higher value to teams at the deadline. If they think he's an addition for them then he should help them win more of the first 60 games and not just a few more of the last 22 and in the playoffs.
There are some teams like PHIL who with the injuries and game management with Embiid could get a lot out of Vuc, but they have put themselves into a corner so they don't have the salary to send the Bulls.

To me the best the Bulls can hope for is a major multi team trade at the end of training camp. Vuc's #21.5M helps swing a big deal, the Bulls take 2 players with an extra year on their rookie contracts and get a pair of picks for helping shuffle bigger name players

[MikeDC]

I think you are flat out wrong about his defense. IMO he's an above average defender and miles ahead of Vuc's league worst defense.

What makes a good defender?

Vuc's 54.2% 2 point DFG was solidly below average but not like guys who were a full std deviation below the mean like Valanciunus 56.3%, Drummond (59% or Duran 55.3%.

Smith's above average here, but his downfall is that he is patently bad at everything else. Vuc, to his credit, is actually pretty good at closing out and contesting 3s. This is something the Bulls clearly want. Amazingly, Vuc had the lowest DFG% in the league against 3 point shooters last year among centers who played significant minutes. And had one of the highest contest rates.

Smith is really bad at contesting 3s, and his DFG% against 3PAs is over 41.7%. That is, he does not contest 3s and it shows up in the results.

The other thing he's pretty bad at is affecting the game with anything besides blocks. He gets steals and deflections at about half the rate Vuc does. His 0.91 deflections/36 is, again, the lowest of any center playing >500 minutes this year by a good 20% over the next lowest guys.

Finally, Smith is a low usage defender. While his 2 point DFG% is above average, his 12.9 DFGA/36 on 2s is pretty weird when Collins and Vuc are both right around 15.

Basically, the evidence doesn't support that Vuc was worst in the league last year. He improved over 23-24 and both the effort and results showed in the stats.

Smith does the one obvious thing well, but if you look at all the less obvious stuff that goes into being a good defensive center, you pretty quickly understand why the Bulls have reached the same conclusion that the Pacers and Suns reached. Which is that he's not very good.

[League Circles]

I think you are flat out wrong about his defense. IMO he's an above average defender and miles ahead of Vuc's league worst defense.

What makes a good defender?

Vuc's 54.2% 2 point DFG was solidly below average but not like guys who were a full std deviation below the mean like Valanciunus 56.3%, Drummond (59% or Duran 55.3%.

Smith's above average here, but his downfall is that he is patently bad at everything else. Vuc, to his credit, is actually pretty good at closing out and contesting 3s. This is something the Bulls clearly want. Amazingly, Vuc had the lowest DFG% in the league against 3 point shooters last year among centers who played significant minutes. And had one of the highest contest rates.

Smith is really bad at contesting 3s, and his DFG% against 3PAs is over 41.7%. That is, he does not contest 3s and it shows up in the results.

The other thing he's pretty bad at is affecting the game with anything besides blocks. He gets steals and deflections at about half the rate Vuc does. His 0.91 deflections/36 is, again, the lowest of any center playing >500 minutes this year by a good 20% over the next lowest guys.

Finally, Smith is a low usage defender. While his 2 point DFG% is above average, his 12.9 DFGA/36 on 2s is pretty weird when Collins and Vuc are both right around 15.

Basically, the evidence doesn't support that Vuc was worst in the league last year. He improved over 23-24 and both the effort and results showed in the stats.

Smith does the one obvious thing well, but if you look at all the less obvious stuff that goes into being a good defensive center, you pretty quickly understand why the Bulls have reached the same conclusion that the Pacers and Suns reached. Which is that he's not very good.

Smith is an elite rebounder. Many people think most so called advanced defensive metrics are straight garbage and use the eye test to conclude that Vuc is atrocious at virtually all aspects of defense and that Smith is at least significantly better.

IMO, Billy may just be making a mistake in terms of their PT. Or, he may be coordinating with AK to try to maximize trade value. Will be interesting to see if much changes this fall. I personally will be shocked if Smith is out of the rotation, despite that happening last spring.

[MikeDC]

I think you are flat out wrong about his defense. IMO he's an above average defender and miles ahead of Vuc's league worst defense.

What makes a good defender?

Vuc's 54.2% 2 point DFG was solidly below average but not like guys who were a full std deviation below the mean like Valanciunus 56.3%, Drummond (59% or Duran 55.3%.

Smith's above average here, but his downfall is that he is patently bad at everything else. Vuc, to his credit, is actually pretty good at closing out and contesting 3s. This is something the Bulls clearly want. Amazingly, Vuc had the lowest DFG% in the league against 3 point shooters last year among centers who played significant minutes. And had one of the highest contest rates.

Smith is really bad at contesting 3s, and his DFG% against 3PAs is over 41.7%. That is, he does not contest 3s and it shows up in the results.

The other thing he's pretty bad at is affecting the game with anything besides blocks. He gets steals and deflections at about half the rate Vuc does. His 0.91 deflections/36 is, again, the lowest of any center playing >500 minutes this year by a good 20% over the next lowest guys.

Finally, Smith is a low usage defender. While his 2 point DFG% is above average, his 12.9 DFGA/36 on 2s is pretty weird when Collins and Vuc are both right around 15.

Basically, the evidence doesn't support that Vuc was worst in the league last year. He improved over 23-24 and both the effort and results showed in the stats.

Smith does the one obvious thing well, but if you look at all the less obvious stuff that goes into being a good defensive center, you pretty quickly understand why the Bulls have reached the same conclusion that the Pacers and Suns reached. Which is that he's not very good.

Smith is an elite rebounder. Many people think most so called advanced defensive metrics are straight garbage

Well, half of people are below average.

FWIW, none of these are "advanced defensive metrics". That term usually signifies stuff that's statistical aggregation to estimate abstract stuff.

What I'm using here are straight box score stats. They're just "advanced" in the sense that they've only been tallied by the NBA in the last several years. There's no real disputing them though. The number of shots defended and made against a guy isn't some abstraction. It's the literal number of times a guy defended a shot and the number of times the shot went in. Same with deflections. It's no different than steals, blocks, rebounds, assists, Tos, FGAs, etc.

and use the eye test to conclude that Vuc is atrocious at virtually all aspects of defense and that Smith is at least significantly better.

That's not using the eye test. It's dismissing the evidence one doesn't like.

IMO, Billy may just be making a mistake in terms of their PT. Or, he may be coordinating with AK to try to maximize trade value. Will be interesting to see if much changes this fall. I personally will be shocked if Smith is out of the rotation, despite that happening last spring.

The Bulls might be making a mistake. But it'll be the same mistake the Pacers and Suns made for several springs before.

[League Circles]

What makes a good defender?

Vuc's 54.2% 2 point DFG was solidly below average but not like guys who were a full std deviation below the mean like Valanciunus 56.3%, Drummond (59% or Duran 55.3%.

Smith's above average here, but his downfall is that he is patently bad at everything else. Vuc, to his credit, is actually pretty good at closing out and contesting 3s. This is something the Bulls clearly want. Amazingly, Vuc had the lowest DFG% in the league against 3 point shooters last year among centers who played significant minutes. And had one of the highest contest rates.

Smith is really bad at contesting 3s, and his DFG% against 3PAs is over 41.7%. That is, he does not contest 3s and it shows up in the results.

The other thing he's pretty bad at is affecting the game with anything besides blocks. He gets steals and deflections at about half the rate Vuc does. His 0.91 deflections/36 is, again, the lowest of any center playing >500 minutes this year by a good 20% over the next lowest guys.

Finally, Smith is a low usage defender. While his 2 point DFG% is above average, his 12.9 DFGA/36 on 2s is pretty weird when Collins and Vuc are both right around 15.

Basically, the evidence doesn't support that Vuc was worst in the league last year. He improved over 23-24 and both the effort and results showed in the stats.

Smith does the one obvious thing well, but if you look at all the less obvious stuff that goes into being a good defensive center, you pretty quickly understand why the Bulls have reached the same conclusion that the Pacers and Suns reached. Which is that he's not very good.

Smith is an elite rebounder. Many people think most so called advanced defensive metrics are straight garbage

Well, half of people are below average.

FWIW, none of these are "advanced defensive metrics". That term usually signifies stuff that's statistical aggregation to estimate abstract stuff.

What I'm using here are straight box score stats. They're just "advanced" in the sense that they've only been tallied by the NBA in the last several years. There's no real disputing them though. The number of shots defended and made against a guy isn't some abstraction. It's the literal number of times a guy defended a shot and the number of times the shot went in. Same with deflections. It's no different than steals, blocks, rebounds, assists, Tos, FGAs, etc.

and use the eye test to conclude that Vuc is atrocious at virtually all aspects of defense and that Smith is at least significantly better.

That's not using the eye test. It's dismissing the evidence one doesn't like.

IMO, Billy may just be making a mistake in terms of their PT. Or, he may be coordinating with AK to try to maximize trade value. Will be interesting to see if much changes this fall. I personally will be shocked if Smith is out of the rotation, despite that happening last spring.

The Bulls might be making a mistake. But it'll be the same mistake the Pacers and Suns made for several springs before.

I'll admit that I don't know all the details behind those stats. If they're box score based they're utter trash though. If they're making guesses about who is guarding who, they're trash.

I just think it's virtual consensus that Vuc is absolutely terrible in D and that Smith isn't, and that the eye test makes that glaringly obvious.

The Suns and Pacers had different teams with different options at C, so I don't think anything they did really sheds any light on what the Bulls should do with Smith.

To me, the Bulls should play Smith a lot this year even if for no other reason than he is the only one with any chance to be our long term C due to his age and contract status.

[Infinity2152]

You may be right that Billy not playing him off the bench is a Billy problem, but we're stuck with Billy, so Vuc being here (where he'll 100% start) is a fan problem. Watching football today, I have my analogy for Vuc. He's a great running quarterback who cannot pass a lick. Arguments as to whether he's good or not, seem to depend on how important defense is to someone.

As of now, there are no teams who want Vuc given his contract. Next off season, we'll need to make a decision on Coby, and to me, a big part of that question is what this team looks like with a lot of good defense on the floor next to Coby and Giddey. Starting Vuc we are losing the insight that we otherwise could gain on that topic.

Again, where are the calls for Collin and Smith then? The same logic that applies to Vuc should apply to them. Myles Turner had one suitor, Naz Reid had none IIRC. They're younger and cheaper than Vuc, surely tradeable. Collins is expiring and nobody's calling for him. We're probably the only team that would consider starting Collins, lol. You're probably not getting great defense from those guys either, they are not paint protectors or shot blockers. In his career, Collins has played over 70 games once, and that's with bench minutes. Jalen Smith has never done it.

What are the odds either of those guys plays 50+ games if given starter minutes? Giddey played great with Vucevic, probably better than Collins or Smith. Where are the three pointers going to come from in a lineup of Giddey, White, Okoro, Matas, Collins? That offensive spacing will be horrible and three point volume and efficiency probably near the bottom of the league.

I would value the possible assets I could get waiting more than worrying about the fit with Giddey and Coby. They both played pretty damn good next to him offensively, that counts too. This idea that Zach Collins is an upgrade, nobody was saying that when we got him, and he's been in the league since 2017. We might as well say Giddey will maintain his second half numbers as well, if we're counting on Collins half season numbers. At least Giddey's young, makes sense he's improving but all I hear is it was only half a season. Same goes for Collins.

Given that there's no market for him now, it's either take a bad deal now, buy him out, or wait. We're not doing anything this year and half the team will be free agents anyway. Think guys are going to have to be patient. He has no reason to give up much in a buyout, and we'd have to use the money we save to sign a $4-$5 mill center worse than Vuc for the inevitable Collins injury.

Naz Reid never hit free agency. He signed a new contract with the Wolves a day or two before. Turner got the deal he wanted from the Bucks and signed after they cut Lillard.

The pairings of Giddey + Collins and Giddey + Smith outplayed Giddey + Vuc. Small sample size, but lineups with Vuc haven't been good in his time as a Bull. The Bulls' 3PAr with Collins is 0.444, with Smith 0.495, and with Vuc 0.442. The spacing argument holds up with Collins, but the 3pt volume didn't change much last season.

Point was these were the best centers on the market and got very little attention. If Naz Reid thought the market was there for him to get $30 mill, why would he sign a few days before free agency for less? Myles Turner was on the market for awhile, 30 teams could have bid on him. Pacers lowballed him because they knew there was no money out there. If Bucs don't make that desperation move, Turner doesn't get paid.

To say the fact that no offers have come in for Vuc because 30 teams thinks he's garbage is an exaggeration. There were two younger centers in roughly the same price range available and teams had to go to extremes to pay them. Naz Reid at 5yrs/$125 mill is a lot, especially considering theyr'e already paying Gobert. Waiving Lillard to sign Turner will cost the Bucks a ton per year, plus Turner's salary. Both signings keep those teams well over the cap.

For those saying Vuc can't be traded and no one wants him, does anyone have a clue as to what the Bulls are actually asking for him? Or whether they're motivated to trade him at all very much. If they are holding out for a first, does that mean there's no market for him? Or no market at that price?

Let's say AK plans to make a big trade this season. The large tradeable contracts are Pat Will, Huerter, Collins, and Vucevic. One player has started his whole career. One player has made multiple All Star games. One player has gotten double digit points and rebounds his whole career. Notice how no one is arguing that Billy won't dare bring Collins, Huerter, or Pat Will of the bench. Vuc is seen as better than those guys by everyone but Bulls fans, lol. Pat Will has no offense, Collins can't shoot, and Huerter is bad on defense too. Their contracts are all fairly close. Three are expiring and Pat is overpaid. Vucevic should have the highest trade value of the four in a packaged trade. I don't think Vuc gets traded in a 1 to 1 player trade, or for two lesser players. Huerter and Collins weren't looking good as recently as the first half of last season. Why I'd focus on trading them while their value is elevated for longer cap and picks and save Vuc for the big trade.

There is no reason to believe Collins or Smith would even last a full season as a starter, anyway. Jalen Smith has played 271 of a possible 410 games in 5 years averaging 16 minutes. Collins has played 378 of a possible 574 games in 7 years averaging 19 minutes.

[dougthonus]

I think you are flat out wrong about his defense. IMO he's an above average defender and miles ahead of Vuc's league worst defense.

What makes a good defender?

Vuc's 54.2% 2 point DFG was solidly below average but not like guys who were a full std deviation below the mean like Valanciunus 56.3%, Drummond (59% or Duran 55.3%.

Vuc is one of the worst defenders in the league in terms of DFG% at the rim among centers who defend a good amount of shots here. I'm not sure how much value I'd place in any of these statistics though. It's really hard to understand defensive statistics.

Simple eye test of watching Vuc shows that:
1: No ability to switch a pick and roll defensively
2: Can't play anything other than drop defense
3: Generally plays below / at the rim and does not contest shots
4: Cannot rotate quickly or move quickly for help
5: Is not quick about getting out to the perimeter to help
6: Trivially beaten by athletic players laterally, doesn't defend shots at all, or fouls

Strengths:
1: Has the strength / size to body up against low post guys
2: Has a high BBIQ and generally knows where he should be so isn't prone to major scheme lapses / idiocy

Generally speaking, his problems are all about physical limitations. He's not quick enough or athletic enough to offer much resistance or play many schemes. As a comparison, Smith is prone to idiocy / scheme lapses, not being where he should be at all, and that has a whole different type of impact. When attacked more directly, Smith is more capable than Vuc in more or less every other way, but awareness is a pretty important part of defense too.

I'd say that coaches will probably value the awareness very high, because it has a cascading effect on the team as a whole, and if you aren't in the place you are supposed to be, it is probably hard to hold every one else accountable for not being where they should be. The awareness piece is directly related to whether the guy is doing what you coach them to do and so probably also stands out to coaches a ton more.

From an impact perspective, four years of numbers would show that the Bulls absolutely suck balls when Vuc plays compared to any other center, or even a guard like Javonte Green or DJJ playing center.

[League Circles]

Only way I see Vuc getting traded is in a package deal for an actual good player, or IF we suck and he's a chemistry or locker room problem I can see him traded at the deadline for two matching scrubs and a 2nd rounder.

Both are unlikely. I still predict that Smith and Vuc share most of the C minutes and Collins is the surprising odd man out for the most part.

[GetBuLLish]

When it comes to defense, the stat I generally rely on (smartly or stupidly) is on/off opponent offensive rating. Last season, teams posted an offensive rating 1.9 points worse with Jalen Smith on the court. For Vuc, teams posted an offensive rating an eye-popping 4.6 points better with Vuc on the court. That's one of the worst on/off defensive numbers I can recall coming across.

[Chi town]

I have two questions, who are we targeting in these hypothetical midseason trades and who are we targeting in free agency with all that cap space? I don't see any difference makers being available for Heurter Vuc and our eternal late lottery picks, and Coby himself is already the most intriguing free agent of next summer, unless we want to gamble a bunch of money on Porzingis? Or hope Eason doesn't already sign an extension in Houston?

This is why we're better off making deals to acquire picks for taking on bad contracts. There is really not anyone out there it makes sense to actively seek out in trade that I can tell.

AK doesn’t value picks.

Dude loves 1 for 1 deals where he refuses to take picks.

[Chi town]

I think we are going to see a Ayo Jalen trade.

[Chi town]

I think we are going to see a Ayo Jalen trade.

[2weekswithpay]

Again, where are the calls for Collin and Smith then? The same logic that applies to Vuc should apply to them. Myles Turner had one suitor, Naz Reid had none IIRC. They're younger and cheaper than Vuc, surely tradeable. Collins is expiring and nobody's calling for him. We're probably the only team that would consider starting Collins, lol. You're probably not getting great defense from those guys either, they are not paint protectors or shot blockers. In his career, Collins has played over 70 games once, and that's with bench minutes. Jalen Smith has never done it.

What are the odds either of those guys plays 50+ games if given starter minutes? Giddey played great with Vucevic, probably better than Collins or Smith. Where are the three pointers going to come from in a lineup of Giddey, White, Okoro, Matas, Collins? That offensive spacing will be horrible and three point volume and efficiency probably near the bottom of the league.

I would value the possible assets I could get waiting more than worrying about the fit with Giddey and Coby. They both played pretty damn good next to him offensively, that counts too. This idea that Zach Collins is an upgrade, nobody was saying that when we got him, and he's been in the league since 2017. We might as well say Giddey will maintain his second half numbers as well, if we're counting on Collins half season numbers. At least Giddey's young, makes sense he's improving but all I hear is it was only half a season. Same goes for Collins.

Given that there's no market for him now, it's either take a bad deal now, buy him out, or wait. We're not doing anything this year and half the team will be free agents anyway. Think guys are going to have to be patient. He has no reason to give up much in a buyout, and we'd have to use the money we save to sign a $4-$5 mill center worse than Vuc for the inevitable Collins injury.

Naz Reid never hit free agency. He signed a new contract with the Wolves a day or two before. Turner got the deal he wanted from the Bucks and signed after they cut Lillard.

The pairings of Giddey + Collins and Giddey + Smith outplayed Giddey + Vuc. Small sample size, but lineups with Vuc haven't been good in his time as a Bull. The Bulls' 3PAr with Collins is 0.444, with Smith 0.495, and with Vuc 0.442. The spacing argument holds up with Collins, but the 3pt volume didn't change much last season.

Point was these were the best centers on the market and got very little attention. If Naz Reid thought the market was there for him to get $30 mill, why would he sign a few days before free agency for less? Myles Turner was on the market for awhile, 30 teams could have bid on him. Pacers lowballed him because they knew there was no money out there. If Bucs don't make that desperation move, Turner doesn't get paid.

To say the fact that no offers have come in for Vuc because 30 teams thinks he's garbage is an exaggeration. There were two younger centers in roughly the same price range available and teams had to go to extremes to pay them. Naz Reid at 5yrs/$125 mill is a lot, especially considering theyr'e already paying Gobert. Waiving Lillard to sign Turner will cost the Bucks a ton per year, plus Turner's salary. Both signings keep those teams well over the cap.

For those saying Vuc can't be traded and no one wants him, does anyone have a clue as to what the Bulls are actually asking for him? Or whether they're motivated to trade him at all very much. If they are holding out for a first, does that mean there's no market for him? Or no market at that price?

Let's say AK plans to make a big trade this season. The large tradeable contracts are Pat Will, Huerter, Collins, and Vucevic. One player has started his whole career. One player has made multiple All Star games. One player has gotten double digit points and rebounds his whole career. Notice how no one is arguing that Billy won't dare bring Collins, Huerter, or Pat Will of the bench. Vuc is seen as better than those guys by everyone but Bulls fans, lol. Pat Will has no offense, Collins can't shoot, and Huerter is bad on defense too. Their contracts are all fairly close. Three are expiring and Pat is overpaid. Vucevic should have the highest trade value of the four in a packaged trade. I don't think Vuc gets traded in a 1 to 1 player trade, or for two lesser players. Huerter and Collins weren't looking good as recently as the first half of last season. Why I'd focus on trading them while their value is elevated for longer cap and picks and save Vuc for the big trade.

There is no reason to believe Collins or Smith would even last a full season as a starter, anyway. Jalen Smith has played 271 of a possible 410 games in 5 years averaging 16 minutes. Collins has played 378 of a possible 574 games in 7 years averaging 19 minutes.

Of course, they got little attention, they weren't available. Naz Reid got a new contract before free agency started. Other teams didn't have the opportunity to make an offer. I don't think Naz Reid is worth 30M AAV. The contract he signed is fair, and there's no sense in being greedy when few teams had cap space this summer. NBA free agency negotiations begin June 30th 6pm ET. Turner's deal with the Bucks was announced by Shams on July 1st at 10 am. Turner wasn't on the market for long, and Turner has always been a trade target for other teams. The Pacers low balled him because they didn't want to pay the tax.

Vuc was on the trade block during the season, and the only team that seemed to be interested in him seriously was the Warriors.

There were reports of the Bulls asking for a FRP in return during the season. I would say they weren't serious about trading him if this is true, but a high asking price doesn't stop teams from making an offer if they are interested. The Warriors still managed to make an offer at the trade deadline. So a bit of both.

Spoiler:

Read on Twitter

People say that because no matter how bad Vuc plays, he never sees his role reduced. In 2024, Vuc was the least efficient big in the NBA and still played 34 minutes a game. If AK plans on making a big trade, Vuc and everyone you listed are matching salary, and nothing else. The other team will be interested in our picks and not the players. Like, including Vuc in the trade offer for a star isn't going to bring the price down.

[Infinity2152]

Naz Reid never hit free agency. He signed a new contract with the Wolves a day or two before. Turner got the deal he wanted from the Bucks and signed after they cut Lillard.

The pairings of Giddey + Collins and Giddey + Smith outplayed Giddey + Vuc. Small sample size, but lineups with Vuc haven't been good in his time as a Bull. The Bulls' 3PAr with Collins is 0.444, with Smith 0.495, and with Vuc 0.442. The spacing argument holds up with Collins, but the 3pt volume didn't change much last season.

Point was these were the best centers on the market and got very little attention. If Naz Reid thought the market was there for him to get $30 mill, why would he sign a few days before free agency for less? Myles Turner was on the market for awhile, 30 teams could have bid on him. Pacers lowballed him because they knew there was no money out there. If Bucs don't make that desperation move, Turner doesn't get paid.

To say the fact that no offers have come in for Vuc because 30 teams thinks he's garbage is an exaggeration. There were two younger centers in roughly the same price range available and teams had to go to extremes to pay them. Naz Reid at 5yrs/$125 mill is a lot, especially considering theyr'e already paying Gobert. Waiving Lillard to sign Turner will cost the Bucks a ton per year, plus Turner's salary. Both signings keep those teams well over the cap.

For those saying Vuc can't be traded and no one wants him, does anyone have a clue as to what the Bulls are actually asking for him? Or whether they're motivated to trade him at all very much. If they are holding out for a first, does that mean there's no market for him? Or no market at that price?

Let's say AK plans to make a big trade this season. The large tradeable contracts are Pat Will, Huerter, Collins, and Vucevic. One player has started his whole career. One player has made multiple All Star games. One player has gotten double digit points and rebounds his whole career. Notice how no one is arguing that Billy won't dare bring Collins, Huerter, or Pat Will of the bench. Vuc is seen as better than those guys by everyone but Bulls fans, lol. Pat Will has no offense, Collins can't shoot, and Huerter is bad on defense too. Their contracts are all fairly close. Three are expiring and Pat is overpaid. Vucevic should have the highest trade value of the four in a packaged trade. I don't think Vuc gets traded in a 1 to 1 player trade, or for two lesser players. Huerter and Collins weren't looking good as recently as the first half of last season. Why I'd focus on trading them while their value is elevated for longer cap and picks and save Vuc for the big trade.

There is no reason to believe Collins or Smith would even last a full season as a starter, anyway. Jalen Smith has played 271 of a possible 410 games in 5 years averaging 16 minutes. Collins has played 378 of a possible 574 games in 7 years averaging 19 minutes.

Of course, they got little attention, they weren't available. Naz Reid got a new contract before free agency started. Other teams didn't have the opportunity to make an offer. I don't think Naz Reid is worth 30M AAV. The contract he signed is fair, and there's no sense in being greedy when few teams had cap space this summer. NBA free agency negotiations begin June 30th 6pm ET. Turner's deal with the Bucks was announced by Shams on July 1st at 10 am. Turner wasn't on the market for long, and Turner has always been a trade target for other teams. The Pacers low balled him because they didn't want to pay the tax.

Vuc was on the trade block during the season, and the only team that seemed to be interested in him seriously was the Warriors.

There were reports of the Bulls asking for a FRP in return during the season. I would say they weren't serious about trading him if this is true, but a high asking price doesn't stop teams from making an offer if they are interested. The Warriors still managed to make an offer at the trade deadline. So a bit of both.

Spoiler:

Read on Twitter

People say that because no matter how bad Vuc plays, he never sees his role reduced. In 2024, Vuc was the least efficient big in the NBA and still played 34 minutes a game. If AK plans on making a big trade, Vuc and everyone you listed are matching salary, and nothing else. The other team will be interested in our picks and not the players. Like, including Vuc in the trade offer for a star isn't going to bring the price down.

Vucevic's PER was 20.3 in 2024, with a career 20.1. That's literally Player Efficiency Rating. So clearly you're using your own stats or combination of stats and opinion to even come close to saying Vuc was the least efficient center. I don't see why people can't get it through their heads that every GM is not going to share your opinion about Vucevic. It's kind of hilarious people think all 32 GM's share their opinion, because it only takes one to make an offer. The arrogance of everybody thinking they know better than Billy Donovan, and more GM's would agree with their decisions than his is wild.

Nobody's saying he's the greatest thing since sliced bread. Saying absolutely not teams would value a guy putting up 18pt, 11rbs shooting 40% from three as nothing more than expiring, ok. So you're saying if Huerter comes out bad like he has done before, averaging 6 pts on average shooting with bad defense, he's worth exactly the same to every team as a Vucevic that's putting up 20 and 11 because they are similar amount expiring's?

[dougthonus]

Vucevic's PER was 20.3 in 2024, with a career 20.1. That's literally Player Efficiency Rating. So clearly you're using your own stats or combination of stats and opinion to even come close to saying Vuc was the least efficient center.

Not trying to be insulting, but it sounds like you don't know what PER is or what people mean by efficiency, so maybe you shouldn't lecture people on either, because while PER has efficiency in the name, it's a generalized all in one stat and not one that meaningfully translates to offensive efficiency (which is traditionally what people mean when they discuss efficiency).

I don't see why people can't get it through their heads that every GM is not going to share your opinion about Vucevic. It's kind of hilarious people think all 32 GM's share their opinion, because it only takes one to make an offer.

There are 29 other GMs, and we know there is not a meaningful market for Vuc because we have been actively shopping him for 3 transaction cycles (last off-season, last deadline, this off-season).

Of course we can trade him, a way to think of this is:
Every player can be moved in a package that is roughly equal value to both sides, but the value each are receiving better fits their needs than what they are giving up.

In this sense, Vuc is on a one year deal at 20M. He's not remotely worth 20M, maybe we could say he's worth 4M-10M depending on the eye of the beholder as a guess. Well if he's worth 10M to some team, that team might trade us a player they value at 5M who make 20M and is on an expiring deal, and feel they upgraded. Maybe they toss us a 2nd round pick to do that.

That team probably only does that if they are trying to win immediately and think they can make use of Vuc. Maybe such a team exists, maybe it doesn't. Maybe a team who has a 20M guy they think is worthless, but has 2 years on his deal, is worth trading for Vuc and they toss in a 1st to shed 20M in salary, and it's worth it to them to save the money, and it's worth it to us vs using the 20M in FA.

In the end, no one who is on an expiring deal us untradeable, even if they are entirely worthless as a player, because trades have a lot of different pieces to them, and on court value is only one of those pieces. A guy who's on court value is considerably less than his contract means you're not going to be too excited about the return, but there can still be strategic returns that are better for you.

The arrogance of everybody thinking they know better than Billy Donovan, and more GM's would agree with their decisions than his is wild.

Do you say this about yourself and your opinion about Josh Giddey? Just curious. Your outlier opinion is not actually substantiated by the actions of other GMs, but the opinion that Vuc holds no meaningful trade value does appear to be backed up by actual events that have happened over the past three transaction cycles.

Nobody's saying he's the greatest thing since sliced bread. Saying absolutely not teams would value a guy putting up 18pt, 11rbs shooting 40% from three as nothing more than expiring, ok. So you're saying if Huerter comes out bad like he has done before, averaging 6 pts on average shooting with bad defense, he's worth exactly the same to every team as a Vucevic that's putting up 20 and 11 because they are similar amount expiring's?

The gap between a NBA team paying me 20M and a NBA team paying a border line rotation player 20M is not very big. I agree every NBA team would rather have Vuc than me, but if I were fortunate enough to be on a roster for 20M a year in street clothes every night, I good chunk of NBA teams wouldn't give up a 2nd rounder to swap us and a good chunk would jump at the chance. I'd be shocked if any of them would give up a 1st rounder to do it.

So the question really is, "Is there a team trying to win now that has an expiring contract of a 20M dollar player that's completely and totally worthless, and does that team need a back up center?". If the answer is yes, they might give us a 2nd rounder and that completely worthless player for Vuc.

[Infinity2152]

To be clear, I 1000% believe Billy Donovan knows far more than I do at the NBA level. I believe he has far more experience and knowledge ad time spent with our players. As far as Josh Giddey, what GM's opinion did I disagree with? I said he's a starter, he's started for two GMs. If the majority of teams kept him on the bench, like Collins and Smith for instance, I'd say they are probably bench players. Most teams (and coaches) are not trying to lose games.

I'll repeat again. I think the Bulls are still trying to get a first or the equivalent in any Vuc trade and would prefer to use him in a big trade. Do you disagree with that? Is that the same as no team wanting to give up equal player value for him?