Pablo Torre: Kawhi/Clippers/Ballmer/Aspiration Thread (part 2)

[OldSchoolNoBull]

I can't seem to find a concrete answer anywhere else, so I'll ask here...since it's been reported that there will be no resolution to this under after the all star break, is Kawhi going to be allowed to play while the investigation is conducted? That seems like it'd be a horribly awkward situation for his teammates.

[Clav]

I can't seem to find a concrete answer anywhere else, so I'll ask here...since it's been reported that there will be no resolution to this under after the all star break, is Kawhi going to be allowed to play while the investigation is conducted? That seems like it'd be a horribly awkward situation for his teammates.

Training camp is not far away and we're without any sort of official statement of this nature. You're right, it's going to be awkward, especially if LAC fans boo the Clippers. Unsure what other teams fans will do, will they boo relentlessly or will it just kind of taper off because no resolution has been publicly announced ?

Cloudy with a chance of confusion.

[Roscoe Sheed]

I can't seem to find a concrete answer anywhere else, so I'll ask here...since it's been reported that there will be no resolution to this under after the all star break, is Kawhi going to be allowed to play while the investigation is conducted? That seems like it'd be a horribly awkward situation for his teammates.

I highly doubt the NBA will issue a pre-emptive suspension.

Also, I doubt his teammates care at all- they probably will just be happy if he is available to play and is healthy.

[Sixers in 4]

I can't seem to find a concrete answer anywhere else, so I'll ask here...since it's been reported that there will be no resolution to this under after the all star break, is Kawhi going to be allowed to play while the investigation is conducted? That seems like it'd be a horribly awkward situation for his teammates.

I highly doubt the NBA will issue a pre-emptive suspension.

Also, I doubt his teammates care at all- they probably will just be happy if he is available to play and is healthy.

It would be hard to envision the NBAPA agreeing to him being suspended without pay prior to the investigation being completed.

Suspending him with pay would just do kawhi a favor

[Dino-Might]

Key Sections

Article 24 — Authority and Duties of the Commissioner

Subsection 24(h): States that “any decision emanating” from interpretation of the Constitution, By-Laws, rules, etc., made by the Commissioner, is “final, binding, conclusive, and unappealable.”

Subsection 24(m): For “all actions duly taken by the Commissioner pursuant to this Article 24 or pursuant to any other Article or Section … which are not specifically referable to the Board of Governors,” after giving the affected party notice and an opportunity to be heard, these decisions are final, binding, conclusive, as an award in arbitration, and enforceable in court.

Article 35 — Misconduct
Challenges by a Team to the Commissioner’s decisions under Art. 35 are appealable to the Board of Governors.

Article 18 — Board of Governors
Subsection 18(e): “All actions duly taken by the Board of Governors shall be final, binding and conclusive, as an award in arbitration, and enforceable in a court of competent jurisdiction in accordance with the laws of the State of New York.”

https://ak-static-int.nba.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/3/2015/12/NBA-Constitution-and-By-Laws.pdf

I already reviewed this provision when I answered all these questions in the other thread. Article 35 specifically deals with misconduct by a PLAYER. I didn’t see any similar appeal process for misconduct by an owner or team.

[Roscoe Sheed]

I can't seem to find a concrete answer anywhere else, so I'll ask here...since it's been reported that there will be no resolution to this under after the all star break, is Kawhi going to be allowed to play while the investigation is conducted? That seems like it'd be a horribly awkward situation for his teammates.

I highly doubt the NBA will issue a pre-emptive suspension.

Also, I doubt his teammates care at all- they probably will just be happy if he is available to play and is healthy.

It would be hard to envision the NBAPA agreeing to him being suspended without pay prior to the investigation being completed.

Suspending him with pay would just do kawhi a favor

contrary to popular belief- he would rather play basketball. He doesn't just sit out for fun.

[clippertown]

Absolutely delusional to say the Clippers did not circumvent the salary cap.

Circumvention of the salary cap is too broad of a term. Did the Clippers get any advantage, from a roster perspective, by giving Kawhi an illegal sponsorship deal? If Kawhi had signed for the MLE and then obtained $48M in under-the-table cash, I could agree but this is not what happened.

This was a sponsorship deal that allowed a player to receive more than the CBA allows, but it is not the traditional cap circumvention - at least it is not the same as the clear-cut cap circumvention that happened in Minnesota. I get that any payment not being factored in is a version of cap circumvention, but not all types of circumvention are the same and some are much worse than others. The Clipper roster would be identical regardless of this move. As such, the only team impacted was the Lakers (who probably made their own offer we don't know about).

The difference to me is clear, but since I am delusional, it's of little consequence.

[SK21209]

I think this board is drastically overrating how much people care about this. I don't think Clippers fans are booing Kawhi, I don't think fans of other teams are booing him any more than normal. I don't think other players on the Clippers care at all, Kawhi's always been pretty distant from his teammates. I think the like Top 10% most engaged fans (the ones that listen to a bunch of NBA podcasts and/or post on an old-school internet forum like this) really care about this story, but the majority of fans really don't tbh.

[clippertown]

I can't seem to find a concrete answer anywhere else, so I'll ask here...since it's been reported that there will be no resolution to this under after the all star break, is Kawhi going to be allowed to play while the investigation is conducted? That seems like it'd be a horribly awkward situation for his teammates.

Training camp is not far away and we're without any sort of official statement of this nature. You're right, it's going to be awkward, especially if LAC fans boo the Clippers. Unsure what other teams fans will do, will they boo relentlessly or will it just kind of taper off because no resolution has been publicly announced ?

Cloudy with a chance of confusion.

Seriously, what percentage of regular fans of the NBA are following this story? Most Clipper fans don't care one bit. The other casual fans around the country don't even know who Pablo Torre even is. By the time the NBA even weighs in, the season will be half over, and most fans will be thinking about the playoffs. The diehard fans of the NBA will pout for a while but nobody will stop watching their sports or boycott the league.

The Minnesota issue was resolved in 3 months from investigation to penalty. The NBA investigated this years ago and decided not to move forward. Now they are revisiting, but won't even comment till the All-Star break? This is a nothingburger that will be resolved with a few expensive gifts.

[Sixers in 4]

Key Sections

Article 24 — Authority and Duties of the Commissioner

Subsection 24(h): States that “any decision emanating” from interpretation of the Constitution, By-Laws, rules, etc., made by the Commissioner, is “final, binding, conclusive, and unappealable.”

Subsection 24(m): For “all actions duly taken by the Commissioner pursuant to this Article 24 or pursuant to any other Article or Section … which are not specifically referable to the Board of Governors,” after giving the affected party notice and an opportunity to be heard, these decisions are final, binding, conclusive, as an award in arbitration, and enforceable in court.

Article 35 — Misconduct
Challenges by a Team to the Commissioner’s decisions under Art. 35 are appealable to the Board of Governors.

Article 18 — Board of Governors
Subsection 18(e): “All actions duly taken by the Board of Governors shall be final, binding and conclusive, as an award in arbitration, and enforceable in a court of competent jurisdiction in accordance with the laws of the State of New York.”

https://ak-static-int.nba.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/3/2015/12/NBA-Constitution-and-By-Laws.pdf

I already reviewed this provision when I answered all these questions in the other thread. Article 35 specifically deals with misconduct by a PLAYER. I didn’t see any similar appeal process for misconduct by an owner or team.

There are two sections one for appeal of the player and another for the team.

ARTICLE 35A MISCONDUCT OF PERSONS OTHER THAN PLAYERS, Page 46

[inonba]

To put into perspective the scale of the issue, Steve Ballmer as a part of the scheme gave Aspiration $54 million to buy "carbon credits". The salary cap for 2022-2023 season was around $123 million which is calculated based on around 45% basketball related income. Still baffles my mind how that didn't raise alarm bells when one team is blowing what is essentially 1/2 a small market teams operating revenue outside of player salaries on "carbon credits".

[jscott]

It is correct. You are citing the most extreme example, which won't happen so its pointless to bring up, and even then, you yourself cite precedent. Stop making this into a "Don't pick a fight with my owner because hes rich" argument. It's sad. He cheated and deserves a major punishment for it, that if Silver has the balls to levy, he will not be able to fight. That punishment will not be forced sale of the team.

The league probably won't force Ballmer to sell, but they can levy a lifetime ban for him, Dennis Wong, Lawrence Frank, CFO, etc that will effectively make him want to sell. As it stands, there is a good chance that will happen to settle this nightmare and later reinstatement when the heat dies down.

We are in unprecedented waters right now, but all signs point to a severe penalty that will be reduced later. At least that's how I see it.

None of this will happen. It's just not realistic. I get that Ballmer was caught operating a scam but the damage done is nowhere near the punishment you keep pushing. The Joe Smith issue helped Minnesota field a stronger team. The Kawhi issue is just that Kawhi got some free money without doing anything to deserve it. If he made a couple of adverts, the issue may disappear. The Clippers did not improve their strength as Kawhi had already signed a max by the time he engaged in this deal. Even if there was foreknowledge (likely but not yet proven), the punishment will be half of the Minnesota punishment. Kawhi was going to either the Clippers or Lakers. Had the deal not involved any BS, Kawhi would likely still be a Clipper.

There will be no lifetime bans for anybody - it won't even be proposed. No owner will risk his own rights in order to punish Ballmer.

I have seen absolutely zero about this outside of specific Basketball forums. Most casual fans don't even know what is going on. This is going to get buried and resolved internally. If Kawhi took a deal at less than max, the issue would be much bigger, but not this time.

The problem is you’re assuming that Kawhi signs with the Clippers without this back room deal. Signing it hurts other teams’ chances at signing him to a fair, agreed upon CBA allowable deal with another team. The other teams who could have signed him are at a disadvantage because they didn’t cheat.

[nomansland]

No. I do not dispute that Kawhi was promised (not actually fully paid) a sum of $48M for a no-show job that was intentionally hidden due to its obvious breach of the current CBA. I never have disputed that fact (not yet proven, but we all know the truth).

I dispute that the Joe Smith saga and the Kawhi saga are the same beast. In the former, a team was able to sign additional players to the squad because of a hidden back-door deal for a player that signed well below his market value. In the latter, the team received zero cap benefit as the player signed was already being paid the max (his full market value). This is a situation where a team offered an illegal sponsorship deal to a player in order to incentivize them to sign but received no cap-benefit and could not sign any additional players with that illegally gained space.

They may sound like the same situation, but they are not.

You are correct. One was a scheme used to sign a role player while the other was a scheme designed to sign a superstar player. Why anyone would think the scheme to sign the role player should carry the heavier penalty is beyond me, so please enlighten us, but Clippers just decided to pay Kawhi extra when they didn't have to is the heart of the argument.

Again, what punishment do you think is enough of a deterrent so other teams don't start setting up shell companies ?

I agree that the penalty should be proportionate to the Joe Smith penalty, but if I remember correctly, at the time Joe Smith was viewed as a prospect with a ton of potential, well beyond a mere role player.

[Clav]

I can't seem to find a concrete answer anywhere else, so I'll ask here...since it's been reported that there will be no resolution to this under after the all star break, is Kawhi going to be allowed to play while the investigation is conducted? That seems like it'd be a horribly awkward situation for his teammates.

Training camp is not far away and we're without any sort of official statement of this nature. You're right, it's going to be awkward, especially if LAC fans boo the Clippers. Unsure what other teams fans will do, will they boo relentlessly or will it just kind of taper off because no resolution has been publicly announced ?

Cloudy with a chance of confusion.

Seriously, what percentage of regular fans of the NBA are following this story? Most Clipper fans don't care one bit. The other casual fans around the country don't even know who Pablo Torre even is. By the time the NBA even weighs in, the season will be half over, and most fans will be thinking about the playoffs. The diehard fans of the NBA will pout for a while but nobody will stop watching their sports or boycott the league.

The Minnesota issue was resolved in 3 months from investigation to penalty. The NBA investigated this years ago and decided not to move forward. Now they are revisiting, but won't even comment till the All-Star break? This is a nothingburger that will be resolved with a few expensive gifts.

You're suggesting that while under investigation, Ballmer (or associates) will bribe the NBA [and law firm], the NBA Board of Governors, others perhaps to make it all go away ? Two wrongs do not make a right.

[clippertown]

The league probably won't force Ballmer to sell, but they can levy a lifetime ban for him, Dennis Wong, Lawrence Frank, CFO, etc that will effectively make him want to sell. As it stands, there is a good chance that will happen to settle this nightmare and later reinstatement when the heat dies down.

We are in unprecedented waters right now, but all signs point to a severe penalty that will be reduced later. At least that's how I see it.

None of this will happen. It's just not realistic. I get that Ballmer was caught operating a scam but the damage done is nowhere near the punishment you keep pushing. The Joe Smith issue helped Minnesota field a stronger team. The Kawhi issue is just that Kawhi got some free money without doing anything to deserve it. If he made a couple of adverts, the issue may disappear. The Clippers did not improve their strength as Kawhi had already signed a max by the time he engaged in this deal. Even if there was foreknowledge (likely but not yet proven), the punishment will be half of the Minnesota punishment. Kawhi was going to either the Clippers or Lakers. Had the deal not involved any BS, Kawhi would likely still be a Clipper.

There will be no lifetime bans for anybody - it won't even be proposed. No owner will risk his own rights in order to punish Ballmer.

I have seen absolutely zero about this outside of specific Basketball forums. Most casual fans don't even know what is going on. This is going to get buried and resolved internally. If Kawhi took a deal at less than max, the issue would be much bigger, but not this time.

The problem is you’re assuming that Kawhi signs with the Clippers without this back room deal. Signing it hurts other teams’ chances at signing him to a fair, agreed upon CBA allowable deal with another team. The other teams who could have signed him are at a disadvantage because they didn’t cheat.

I agree here. The Clippers denied other teams the opportunity to sign Kawhi by giving him a back-door deal and there needs to be a punishment associated with this action. But, in this situation, Kawhi was always going to leave Toronto (he publicly hated being there) and any owner could have offered him a similar deal to attract him to their team, and we don't even know if they did or not. Do you really think Uncle Dennis only placed once call and just to the Clippers? No way. He probably got a dozen offers and the Ballmer's was the best (wait for that to come out in discovery).

In addition, it's not like Kawhi was an easy signing or was obtained for cheap. He was literally the most expensive signing in the history of the game. A decade worth of picks and the brightest young rookie since LBJ - no discount was obtained here.

[clippertown]

You're suggesting that while under investigation, Ballmer (or associates) will bribe the NBA [and law firm], the NBA Board of Governors, others perhaps to make it all go away ? Two wrongs do not make a right.

I am suggesting that Ballmer will buy Silver a Gulfstream G800, pay about $50M in penalty luxury tax and new rules will be discussed to prevent this going forward. It will be handled internally with Ballmer and Kawhi making a public apology and the Clippers paying $30-50M to charity.

[inonba]

I agree here. The Clippers denied other teams the opportunity to sign Kawhi by giving him a back-door deal and there needs to be a punishment associated with this action. But, in this situation, Kawhi was always going to leave Toronto (he publicly hated being there) and any team could have offered him a similar deal to attract him to their team, and we don't even know if they did or not. Do you really think Uncle Dennis only placed once call and just to the Clippers? No way. He probably got a dozen offers and the Ballmer's was the best (wait for that to come out in discovery).

In addition, it's not like Kawhi was an easy signing or was obtained for cheap. He was literally the most expensive signing in the history of the game. A decade worth of picks and the brightest young rookie since LBJ - no discount was obtained here.

Game, set, match. I already can't compete against a mind reader, and now against someone that simply make **** up.

[jscott]

None of this will happen. It's just not realistic. I get that Ballmer was caught operating a scam but the damage done is nowhere near the punishment you keep pushing. The Joe Smith issue helped Minnesota field a stronger team. The Kawhi issue is just that Kawhi got some free money without doing anything to deserve it. If he made a couple of adverts, the issue may disappear. The Clippers did not improve their strength as Kawhi had already signed a max by the time he engaged in this deal. Even if there was foreknowledge (likely but not yet proven), the punishment will be half of the Minnesota punishment. Kawhi was going to either the Clippers or Lakers. Had the deal not involved any BS, Kawhi would likely still be a Clipper.

There will be no lifetime bans for anybody - it won't even be proposed. No owner will risk his own rights in order to punish Ballmer.

I have seen absolutely zero about this outside of specific Basketball forums. Most casual fans don't even know what is going on. This is going to get buried and resolved internally. If Kawhi took a deal at less than max, the issue would be much bigger, but not this time.

The problem is you’re assuming that Kawhi signs with the Clippers without this back room deal. Signing it hurts other teams’ chances at signing him to a fair, agreed upon CBA allowable deal with another team. The other teams who could have signed him are at a disadvantage because they didn’t cheat.

I agree here. The Clippers denied other teams the opportunity to sign Kawhi by giving him a back-door deal and there needs to be a punishment associated with this action. But, in this situation, Kawhi was always going to leave Toronto (he publicly hated being there) and any owner could have offered him a similar deal to attract him to their team, and we don't even know if they did or not. Do you really think Uncle Dennis only placed once call and just to the Clippers? No way. He probably got a dozen offers and the Ballmer's was the best (wait for that to come out in discovery).

In addition, it's not like Kawhi was an easy signing or was obtained for cheap. He was literally the most expensive signing in the history of the game. A decade worth of picks and the brightest young rookie since LBJ - no discount was obtained here.

Other teams (reportedly at least Toronto and the Lakers) reported Dennis/Kawhi’s ask for extra benefits. They chose not to cheat while the Clippers did cheat. They’re guilty and need to be punished.

[drekwins]

Absolutely delusional to say the Clippers did not circumvent the salary cap.

Circumvention of the salary cap is too broad of a term. Did the Clippers get any advantage, from a roster perspective, by giving Kawhi an illegal sponsorship deal? If Kawhi had signed for the MLE and then obtained $48M in under-the-table cash, I could agree but this is not what happened.

This was a sponsorship deal that allowed a player to receive more than the CBA allows, but it is not the traditional cap circumvention - at least it is not the same as the clear-cut cap circumvention that happened in Minnesota. I get that any payment not being factored in is a version of cap circumvention, but not all types of circumvention are the same and some are much worse than others. The Clipper roster would be identical regardless of this move. As such, the only team impacted was the Lakers (who probably made their own offer we don't know about).

The difference to me is clear, but since I am delusional, it's of little consequence.

This is a cute point of view. Your argument immediately went in the tank when you asked: "Did the Clippers get any advantage"

Before we even answer that question, this is about precedent. This is not about just the Clippers. A standard will be set for the rest of the league to follow. IDC if Kawhi sat out every game, the Clippers must be HAMMERED. Otherwise, closed-door promises will get completely out-of-control... every player will negotiate off-the-books with insane requests. It will quickly become a circus. Therefore, this needs to be nipped in the bud immediately if there is going to be any integrity in the league. Otherwise, get rid of the cap and stop insulting our intelligence.

Second, we don't know if Kawhi would be a Clipper without the promise of deals to come. No one knows. Therefore, they may have benefited. They may have not. Still, that aspect is irrelevant.

[Dino-Might]

Key Sections

Article 24 — Authority and Duties of the Commissioner

Subsection 24(h): States that “any decision emanating” from interpretation of the Constitution, By-Laws, rules, etc., made by the Commissioner, is “final, binding, conclusive, and unappealable.”

Subsection 24(m): For “all actions duly taken by the Commissioner pursuant to this Article 24 or pursuant to any other Article or Section … which are not specifically referable to the Board of Governors,” after giving the affected party notice and an opportunity to be heard, these decisions are final, binding, conclusive, as an award in arbitration, and enforceable in court.

Article 35 — Misconduct
Challenges by a Team to the Commissioner’s decisions under Art. 35 are appealable to the Board of Governors.

Article 18 — Board of Governors
Subsection 18(e): “All actions duly taken by the Board of Governors shall be final, binding and conclusive, as an award in arbitration, and enforceable in a court of competent jurisdiction in accordance with the laws of the State of New York.”

https://ak-static-int.nba.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/3/2015/12/NBA-Constitution-and-By-Laws.pdf

I already reviewed this provision when I answered all these questions in the other thread. Article 35 specifically deals with misconduct by a PLAYER. I didn’t see any similar appeal process for misconduct by an owner or team.

There are two sections one for appeal of the player and another for the team.

ARTICLE 35A MISCONDUCT OF PERSONS OTHER THAN PLAYERS, Page 46

Yea exactly. 35A is a separate article from 35, with its own enforcement procedures and no appeal process. Read it through and you will realize what I am saying.